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Old 08-12-2020, 06:40 PM   #1
thinkxingu
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Default Stalling When Trimming Down?

I'm having a weird problem: sometimes—only at the beginning of outings—my 2016 Mercury 150 outboard will stall when trimming down. It is accompanied by a beep and will start right back up. The RPMs also*seem to be* dropping more when using the trim as well.

Thoughts?

It's under warranty, so I'll have Melvin look at it when I bring it in unless it's a more immediate need or self-fixable.

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Old 08-12-2020, 06:43 PM   #2
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I'm having a weird problem: sometimes—only at the beginning of outings—my 2016 Mercury 150 outboard will stall when trimming down. It is accompanied by a beep and will start right back up.

Thoughts?

It's under warranty, so I'll have Melvin look at it when I bring it in unless it's a more immediate need or self-fixable.

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Two stroke or four?... if four, Check your oil level, could be just low enough that trimming the motor kicks on the low oil shutdown.

Could also be water in your onboard fuel water filter....

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Old 08-12-2020, 06:45 PM   #3
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My son had the same issue. Loose connection in the throttle handle


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Old 08-12-2020, 06:52 PM   #4
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Think,

I googled your issue for the heck of it and everything I read seems to lead to an electrical issue of some sort...here’s just one example...

http://www.pontoonforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2431

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Old 08-12-2020, 07:33 PM   #5
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Anyone know what that black button on the side of the shifter handle does?! (Be gentle, if I should know!)Name:  20200812_193305.jpg
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:39 PM   #6
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Anyone know what that black button on the side of the shifter handle does?! (Be gentle, if I should know!)Attachment 16344

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High idle button...push that button in while moving throttle forward keeps motor in neutral yet allows motor to rev.

Yes you should know this...

Dan
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:41 PM   #7
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Default Black button...

Could that black button be the button you push to allow you to advance the throttle while in neutral ?
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:43 PM   #8
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High idle button...push that button in while moving throttle forward keeps motor in neutral yet allows motor to rev.

Yes you should know this...

Dan
What would I use that for?

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Old 08-12-2020, 07:44 PM   #9
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Anyone know what that black button on the side of the shifter handle does?! (Be gentle, if I should know!)Attachment 16344

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If it's like other manufacturer controls it keeps the motor in neutral and allows you to throttle up the motor. You push it in to activate it (i.e. keep it in neutral).
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:48 PM   #10
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What would I use that for?

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It's predominately a carryover from carbureted engines to help with starting the motor but you can use it to increase RPM's and thus water flow through the motor and things like that.
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:50 PM   #11
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It's predominately a carryover from carbureted engines to help with starting the motor but you can use it to increase RPM's and thus water flow through the motor and things like that.
Gotcha, thanks!

I just remembered I've gotta bring Boatie Two in for some new canvas soon, so, seeing as it sounds like it's electrical and probs under warranty, I'll have them take a look.

If there's anything I should try in the meantime—it literally only happens in the first fifteen minutes (so far)—please let me know.

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Old 08-12-2020, 07:51 PM   #12
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What would I use that for?

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You could bring it above idle to recharge a low battery.

You could warm up the engine after you first start it.

If your engine ran rough you could race it a little to see if it cleared up
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:51 PM   #13
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Anyone know what that black button on the side of the shifter handle does?! (Be gentle, if I should know!)Attachment 16344

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Yes, as Dan said.

On a cold start, I pushed the button in, moved throttle to wide open and return it to just before neutral. Turn key to start the engine. I'd run at that slightly higher RPM for about 30 seconds, then pull throttle back to neutral (button pops back out), which returns the RPMs to normal idle. Throttle is now ready for normal operation.

I did this on my Mercruiser, and I believe with my Mercury 135 Optimax O/B.

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Old 08-12-2020, 07:56 PM   #14
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To answer your original question, the issue sounds electrical to me. Maybe a battery, connections, controls, etc.
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Old 08-12-2020, 08:03 PM   #15
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Will the engine shut off with low-voltage? And, if so, would the motor draw less (to start) than trimming down?

This is the 5th summer with the battery, and the only thing I've done to it is disconnect for winter storage, so I'm wondering if it's got enough juice to start the motor but not enough to trim down until charged for a bit.

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Old 08-12-2020, 08:29 PM   #16
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It shouldn't.

Once started you are making electricity with your alternator and theoretically, you could even disconnect the battery and run without.

I say theoretically because some auto engines like Jeep, monitor +12V off the battery in the PCM as opposed to most who monitor it off the alternator.

Odd that you say it goes away. Almost sounds more like an air bubble in the fuel line, but yeah, if its under warranty, get it looked at.
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Old 08-12-2020, 08:33 PM   #17
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If you have gotten 5 years out of a boat battery you have done well for yourself. I would replace it especially if you are running a single battery.
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Old 08-13-2020, 08:12 AM   #18
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My guess is that your battery is about to fail or you have something draining the battery while the boat is unused. Your alternator has not had a chance to re-charge the battery in the first 15 minutes and a big load like a trim motor is dragging the voltage down enough to affect the fuel injection or ignition.

Check your battery voltage with an accurate volt meter connected directly to the battery terminals before you start the boat and with all loads off, the next time the boat has sat for 12 hours. If the battery has less than 12.4 volts, something is drawing the battery down or the battery is failing.
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Old 08-13-2020, 08:26 AM   #19
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I am with Dave R! You DEF have an electrical issue. Most likely a loose connection of some sort. The trim motor is pulling too much current, causing a voltage drop.

Make sure your battery connections & trim motor connections are tight. Put a trickle charger on the battery to make sure it too is at full capacity.


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Old 08-13-2020, 08:29 AM   #20
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"big load like a trim motor is dragging the voltage down "

Good call.
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:15 AM   #21
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I've got three multimeters...at home! I'm gonna try to wrestle one up today to test the battery, since it's been sitting since last evening.

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Old 08-13-2020, 09:35 AM   #22
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"big load like a trim motor is dragging the voltage down "

Good call.
I could be way off base too. Older outboards did not use battery power for ignition at all (some use up to 600 volts on the primary side of the coils), so the battery voltage would make no difference at all to running. Guessing that a modern 4 stroke 150 probably requires a continuous 9V+ to run the fuel injection ECU.
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Old 08-13-2020, 09:44 AM   #23
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An extreme example of the battery being the culprit:

A small airplane equipped with FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) was to be flown but it’s batteries were dead.

The flight manual warned against flying with low batteries but the two INSTRUCTOR RATED pilots started the aircraft with a start cart (effectively a jump start) anyway.

They took off and as is the procedure, brought up the landing gear on climb out.

There is a fairly big electrical load when that is done.

The FADEC system did not receive enough power to operate and went off line.

The plane made an off airport landing.

The “pilots” had much explaining to do.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:04 AM   #24
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Default "Trim down"

My familiarity with pontoons is limited to a couple of rentals. There was never any desire to trim up or down. On my planing hull, I trim up or down to adjust the angle of attack for improved ride, efficiency, etc. This involves running the tilt motor for only a coupe of seconds at a time. In the above posts, there is never a reference to "trim up". All I could think of is that you store the bot with the engine out of the water, and in shallow conditions run half up/down until reaching deeper water, at which point, you trim down. In this scenario, I'd guess you return to the dock (trailer?) with the engine half up and the old battery fully charged. Then you raise the engine the rest of the way, engine not running, straining an old battery. On start up you lower half way to get water pick up, start up, and in a minute or two, "trim down", putting a load on the less than fully charged battery. It may be semantics. I think of "raising" and "lowering" the lower unit and "trim" being two different operations, though perhaps controlled by the same button.

Your owners manual Trouble shooting section may address this. It may also suggest reasons to use, or not use, the High Idle button.
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:03 PM   #25
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My familiarity with pontoons is limited to a couple of rentals. There was never any desire to trim up or down. On my planing hull, I trim up or down to adjust the angle of attack for improved ride, efficiency, etc. This involves running the tilt motor for only a coupe of seconds at a time. In the above posts, there is never a reference to "trim up". All I could think of is that you store the bot with the engine out of the water, and in shallow conditions run half up/down until reaching deeper water, at which point, you trim down. In this scenario, I'd guess you return to the dock (trailer?) with the engine half up and the old battery fully charged. Then you raise the engine the rest of the way, engine not running, straining an old battery. On start up you lower half way to get water pick up, start up, and in a minute or two, "trim down", putting a load on the less than fully charged battery. It may be semantics. I think of "raising" and "lowering" the lower unit and "trim" being two different operations, though perhaps controlled by the same button.

Your owners manual Trouble shooting section may address this. It may also suggest reasons to use, or not use, the High Idle button.
Exactly right on usage: we pull the outboard up 1/4 way to beach and then all the way up (after shutdown) when storing. Then, I bring it down (before starting) to 1/4 and pull out.

As I was typing this, though, it occurred to me that after starting, I've dropped the motor at least once without stalling on both trips. And it starts right back up both then and after hours spent at the sandbar with the radio playing.

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Old 08-14-2020, 11:48 PM   #26
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So I may not be 100%, but you give some credibility to my idea. Battery, not some of the other issues, although low electric power may be a contributor to those issues as well.
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:50 PM   #27
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I just had a moment to test the battery. After sitting for two days, it's testing out at 11 volts. So, just enough to start the engine, but not enough to run the tilt motor?

It would seem that the voltage is high enough after a couple days to assume it's not a parasitic draw but rather a dead cell or failing battery?

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Old 08-15-2020, 07:32 PM   #28
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My understanding is , it takes a certain amount of juice to start, normally running a few minutes will bring that back if the battery is up to snuff. If it is failing you can't recover as quickly . It may be at 11 because you used the tilt motor to lift, and then shut down, no recovery.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:31 AM   #29
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I just had a moment to test the battery. After sitting for two days, it's testing out at 11 volts. So, just enough to start the engine, but not enough to run the tilt motor?

It would seem that the voltage is high enough after a couple days to assume it's not a parasitic draw but rather a dead cell or failing battery?

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11 volts could be a parasitic load or a bad battery. When battery voltage drops below 11.8 volts on a lead acid 12V deep-cycle battery, damage is being done to the battery. If voltage drops below 12.1 volts on a lead acid 12V starting battery, damage is being done. Thus, regardless of what kind of battery you are using, damage is done...

I think the first step should be to find out if there is a parasitic load, then when that is sorted out, get a new battery, and finally test the charging system.

If you are using the battery for more than just starting and running, you may discover that the outboard alternator is inadequate to keep the battery charged. FWIW, I don't know anyone that regrets adding an onboard automatic battery charger that runs on 120VAC (house power). I am very pleased with the Pronautic charger on my boat.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:37 AM   #30
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11 volts could be a parasitic load or a bad battery. When battery voltage drops below 11.8 volts on a lead acid 12V deep-cycle battery, damage is being done to the battery. If voltage drops below 12.1 volts on a lead acid 12V starting battery, damage is being done. Thus, regardless of what kind of battery you are using, damage is done...

I think the first step should be to find out if there is a parasitic load, then when that is sorted out, get a new battery, and finally test the charging system.

If you are using the battery for more than just starting and running, you may discover that the outboard alternator is inadequate to keep the battery charged. FWIW, I don't know anyone that regrets adding an onboard automatic battery charger that runs on 120VAC (house power). I am very pleased with the Pronautic charger on my boat.
Thanks for the tips. I don't have power available at the boat, so I'd have to use solar for any sort of charging.

How does one test for a parasitic load?

My tendency is to seek the simplest answer in any given situation and, given the battery is over five years old with nothing but use and disconnect in the winter, I'm leaning towards a failing battery, but am interested in anything (simple) I can do before having MVM look at it when it's returned in (sad face!) two months.

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Old 08-17-2020, 10:57 AM   #31
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I Can't think of parasitic load for you. Lights, radio etc go off when you turn off the master switch (You have one and you use it, right?) and no automatic bilge pump. Just an old, tired, battery hat should go to the recycle bin. It looks like raising and lowering the engine when the battery is not charging will continue, so a solar charger might be a nice addition. If you add accessories, add a battery and be sure to use only one battery via the master switch while you're draining one on the sandbar.
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Old 08-17-2020, 11:23 AM   #32
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I Can't think of parasitic load for you. Lights, radio etc go off when you turn off the master switch (You have one and you use it, right?) and no automatic bilge pump. Just an old, tired, battery hat should go to the recycle bin. It looks like raising and lowering the engine when the battery is not charging will continue, so a solar charger might be a nice addition. If you add accessories, add a battery and be sure to use only one battery via the master switch while you're draining one on the sandbar.
There's no master switch that I know of, only a 12V and USB socket and toggles on the dash for radio, horn, nav/anchor, and dock lights. All are doubly checked (and have been) bef6 disembarking.

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Old 08-17-2020, 11:49 AM   #33
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Default Perko

Perko makes several master switches, about $40-$50 at West Marine. Big orange rotating switch usually located under a seat or in a compartment near the batteries. Most of your electrical stuff probably goes through the ignition switch. With no bilge pumps, its very possible your manufacturer uses the ignition as the master switch. If you or a previous owner added electrical accessories, that may have been by-passed. Again 98% it's just an old tired battery
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Old 08-17-2020, 12:15 PM   #34
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to check for parasitic load, use an ammeter in between the battery + post and the red battery cable. IF there is any current, that wouild the the parasitic load. That said, I'm in agreement that you can likely just swap the battery and enjoy boating for the next 5 years.

Adding a solar charger would never hurt.
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Old 08-17-2020, 12:41 PM   #35
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Pretty sure you need a new battery...

BUT!

Did you check the voltage with the engine running? Just to rule out alternator issues. You should see the high side of 14V if your alternator is charging properly.


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Old 08-17-2020, 12:59 PM   #36
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to check for parasitic load, use an ammeter in between the battery + post and the red battery cable. IF there is any current, that wouild the the parasitic load. That said, I'm in agreement that you can likely just swap the battery and enjoy boating for the next 5 years.

Adding a solar charger would never hurt.
To clarify, pull the positive lead off and connect the multimeter between it and the positive battery post?

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Old 08-17-2020, 01:01 PM   #37
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Perko makes several master switches, about $40-$50 at West Marine. Big orange rotating switch usually located under a seat or in a compartment near the batteries. Most of your electrical stuff probably goes through the ignition switch. With no bilge pumps, its very possible your manufacturer uses the ignition as the master switch. If you or a previous owner added electrical accessories, that may have been by-passed. Again 98% it's just an old tired battery
All the switches, and 12V outlet, are live with the ignition off. And we bought the boat new, so nothing has been added. I'll take a look at the master switches, though, as that may be a useful addition.

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Old 08-17-2020, 01:46 PM   #38
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I draw the same conclusion as all others here, it is time for a new battery.

Now while going for a new battery, I would also recomend installing a battery switch. When you aren't using the boat for a while, it will disconnect the battery.

Now as others have stated, you could add a second battery as well, and thus instead of a on/off switch for your battery, you would get a battery selector switch....

I did this on my bowrider and don't regret it. I have found that my battery last longer, and I know longer get concerned about leaving the boat for longer periods of time.

I will be adding one eventually to my pontoon boat as well too.... I am hoping to start improvement on that boat next year......

Last, don't start getting multiple boats, it can make your head spin, when your trying to keep you projects straight.....
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:58 PM   #39
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Some of y'all might remember that I picked one of these up at the end of last season for L'il Buddy's trolling motor. Given that he's moved on to the outboard, will this work to replace my current 'toon battery?
https://www.batteriesplus.com/produc...ultra/sli27mdc

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Old 08-17-2020, 02:00 PM   #40
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They should work just fine.....

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Old 08-17-2020, 08:53 PM   #41
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That battery you linked was a deep cycle battery which is designed for a steady amount of power over a long period of time (i.e. trolling motors). You want a cranking/starting battery which provides a lot of power in a short period of time. Given the last battery lasted over 5 years, your dealer installed a quality battery. If it were me, I would just replace it with a new version of what I had.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:07 PM   #42
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Keep the trolling motor battery for sand bar and get a new cranking battery with as elector switch. Much better cocktail party talk.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:10 PM   #43
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Keep the trolling motor battery for sand bar and get a new cranking battery with as elector switch. Much better cocktail party talk.
I like that idea. Also, when you are done at the end of the day, you can turn the switch to off and not worry about draining either battery.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:17 PM   #44
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I'm open to that idea, but I need to see if there's enough space.

If I go that route, how does the deep cell recharge (the cranking one would be charged regularly by the alternator)?

Suggestions on a switch to use?

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Old 08-17-2020, 09:28 PM   #45
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Select "All" or "1 & 2".
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Old 08-18-2020, 12:49 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by thinkxingu View Post
I'm open to that idea, but I need to see if there's enough space.

If I go that route, how does the deep cell recharge (the cranking one would be charged regularly by the alternator)?

Suggestions on a switch to use?

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If you want a foolproof option, buy and install an automatic charging relay when you add the second battery. I have a Blue Seas ACR on my boat and it's a high quality piece of gear. Blue Seas makes a great "Add a Battery" kit that would by ideal for your needs, IMO. See: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/blue-...caAhwLEALw_wcB

That kit has the switch and ACR in one package and will make installation a breeze.

If you need custom cables made for the installation, www.bestboatwire.com does great work for a great price and they sell real (UL1426) boat wire. See: https://www.bestboatwire.com/product...de-by-the-foot


The ACR will always prioritize the starting battery for charging. Once the starting battery is re-charged, it will combine the starting battery and the extra battery to allow the extra battery to be charged. It will automatically uncombine the batteries when charging is not occuring. The switch will give you the option to combine the batteries manually if you need to for emergency starting. Using this setup correctly will prevent having two dead batteries.
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Old 08-18-2020, 01:52 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
If you want a foolproof option, buy and install an automatic charging relay when you add the second battery. I have a Blue Seas ACR on my boat and it's a high quality piece of gear. Blue Seas makes a great "Add a Battery" kit that would by ideal for your needs, IMO. See: https://www.westmarine.com/buy/blue-...caAhwLEALw_wcB

That kit has the switch and ACR in one package and will make installation a breeze.

If you need custom cables made for the installation, www.bestboatwire.com does great work for a great price and they sell real (UL1426) boat wire. See: https://www.bestboatwire.com/product...de-by-the-foot


The ACR will always prioritize the starting battery for charging. Once the starting battery is re-charged, it will combine the starting battery and the extra battery to allow the extra battery to be charged. It will automatically uncombine the batteries when charging is not occuring. The switch will give you the option to combine the batteries manually if you need to for emergency starting. Using this setup correctly will prevent having two dead batteries.
I find myself going in the wrong direction in terms of simplicity and cost. While I would love to do a second battery and all that jazz, what brought me here seems to be a simple issue of battery replacement (after what appears to be a reasonable lifetime).

I will most likely, then, simply replace the battery next spring.

I do want to do a couple more tests, though: another voltage test to see if it's dropped since my last test (and no use), a parasitic draw test, and a test while running (all as suggested above).

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Old 08-18-2020, 04:24 PM   #48
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Here’s my cave man parasitic draw test:

1) Verify with certainty there are ZERO gasoline fumes.

2) Confirm that every switch on the boat is off.

3) Disconnect one of the battery cables.

4) Provide darkness using time of day or some sort of shade.

5) Lightly touch the disconnected battery cable to the battery terminal.

6) Does it spark? If so, something is drawing power. If not, there could still be a tiny bit of draw.
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Old 08-18-2020, 11:03 PM   #49
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OK. OK. Think has already said he would replace the battery next spring. I assume that means he carries a jump box for the next 3 months.
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Old 08-19-2020, 05:57 AM   #50
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OK. OK. Think has already said he would replace the battery next spring. I assume that means he carries a jump box for the next 3 months.
I already carry a jump pack, but I've not ever had to use it. The battery has started the boat every single time—including after it has stalled those couple times. In fact, I might not even have ever noticed it if I didn't "force it" the last couple of times. Knowing what it might be makes it easy to avoid these next, what, 7 weeks?

In fact, we've probably only got four or five more outings since school is about to begin and that'll be nuts. Sad face.



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Old 08-19-2020, 09:43 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by 8gv View Post
Here’s my cave man parasitic draw test:

1) Verify with certainty there are ZERO gasoline fumes.

2) Confirm that every switch on the boat is off.

3) Disconnect one of the battery cables.

4) Provide darkness using time of day or some sort of shade.

5) Lightly touch the disconnected battery cable to the battery terminal.

6) Does it spark? If so, something is drawing power. If not, there could still be a tiny bit of draw.
You’re all good until step 5. If you really want to know if you have a draw and what that voltage draw is you should use the two test leads of a multi meter set on DC volts. Connect one to the battery and one to the disconnected cable. Any voltage above ten volts is a draw that will draw down the battery over a short time. If you have a 10-12V draw start removing the fuses in the fuse box one by one until the draw drops or goes away. That will steer you in the right direction.

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Old 08-19-2020, 10:03 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
You’re all good until step 5. If you really want to know if you have a draw and what that voltage draw is you should use the two test leads of a multi meter set on DC volts. Connect one to the battery and one to the disconnected cable. Any voltage above ten volts is a draw that will draw down the battery over a short time. If you have a 10-12V draw start removing the fuses in the fuse box one by one until the draw drops or goes away. That will steer you in the right direction.

BT
If course you are correct but cave men had no such test devices...
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Old 08-19-2020, 04:05 PM   #53
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If course you are correct but cave men had no such test devices...
I thought he said he had a multi meter.....
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Old 08-19-2020, 08:24 PM   #54
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Grab the spare battery- might not fit into your battery box but who cares. Hook up your battery cables to that battery, exactly how they are now. If you have the same symptoms, then the battery is not your problem. If it seems fine, replace your battery. Once the engine is started, the alternator should be able to hold the load just fine- but a weak battery will at least draw down the battery, trim takes a lot of juice. Good idea having the jump pack on board!
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Old 08-19-2020, 08:58 PM   #55
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Lightbulb Then, "Off" and "On" Each Switch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8gv View Post
Here’s my cave man parasitic draw test:

1) Verify with certainty there are ZERO gasoline fumes.

2) Confirm that every switch on the boat is off.

3) Disconnect one of the battery cables.

4) Provide darkness using time of day or some sort of shade.

5) Lightly touch the disconnected battery cable to the battery terminal.

6) Does it spark? If so, something is drawing power. If not, there could still be a tiny bit of draw.
Wait 'til dark: use a spare bulb.

Glow—however slight—indicates parasitic draw.

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Old 08-20-2020, 02:08 PM   #56
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Took Boatie Two out today after a week or so, and no problems at all. I did let it idle a bit before taking off...

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