Non Resident Taxpayers voting in TOWN elections

[Ms Merge]

Folks, I have always thought that our large number of non resident taxpayers are really getting a raw deal. This is taxation without representation. Do you think it would be wise to let non resident taxpayers vote in our March Town elections? This way they could vote on zoning and tax issues.

Comments?

Ms Merge

[MaryS]

In Moultonboro, there are so many taxpayors who are not primary residents who fund all the many town budget items...We should have a vote in how the money is spent...I know of some households where one adult has changed their "primary" address to NH while the other remains in their state...just to have a vote.... In CT if you own property you can vote on the town budget, referendum etc no matter where your primary residence is....
Enough folks need to take a stand on this....

[MAXUM]

Well if you think about it, the way taxes are levied everywhere it could be argued that there is taxation w/o representation everywhere. Case in point NH residents that work in MA and have to pay income tax to MA, yet cannot vote there. I unfortunately fall into that category.

To your point - if a town has a disproportionate number of out of state part time "residents" they in theory could override and prevent funding from being granted for things that they have no interest in or use for since their only interest would be in things that directly effect them, but may not necessarily be in the best interest of the respective town.

It's a hard situation to address that's for sure, but no matter the case any tax payer should at least be given the opportunity to attend any town meeting, stand up and have their voices heard.

[Slickcraft]

We pay more tax $$ to Gilford as “summer residents” than we do in Alton where we get to vote. As Gilford spends money like water I often wish that we could have a say in the voting. So I sympathize with your point of view.

As a former town official I also see the other side of this. Citizens traditionally get to vote only once in one place. If you own land in many towns and could vote in each one then having money could add up to lots of votes. Then would the part time resident get to vote on the complete ballot of just a subset? How would this be determined?

People who own land but are not full time residents would also tend to vote against anything not of benefit to them such as local schools.

We belong to the Gilford Island Association which, while having some Gilford voters as members, is mostly comprised of land owners not eligible to vote in Gilford. The association does serve as a useful voice to the Board of Selectmen.

[Pineedles]

They don't care. They write the rules and we pay. It wouldn't matter if we paid 99.9 percent of the taxes in town, they still have the power to not let us vote. It's just the way it is.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

While it can be easily argued that people should only be allowed to vote where they maintain their primary residence, it is criminal the way some towns, especially school districts, spend too much since they know that the NRTP will be picking up the tab.

[Yankee]

You do not live here, you do not vote here. Period. What makes you think that you have the same rights as NH citizens? People like you from south of the border come here and are the ones raising the tax bases of all the towns here in the lakes region. You would not be in the least interested in voting if your vacation property taxes were far less than they are now.

You do not live here, you do not have family here, you do not raise your children here, you do not earn a living here, you have no stake in the community other than your vacation property. Yet you have the temerity to think that you deserve the same right of franchise to vote as those who call the lakes region home?

Please explain how you came to this conclusion?...

[Happy Gourmand]

OK then...how about those of us wo already live in NH and have a second home in the Lakes Region? We're not like "those" people from South of the Border are we?

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by Yankee

You do not live here, you do not vote here. Period. What makes you think that you have the same rights as NH citizens? People like you from south of the border come here and are the ones raising the tax bases of all the towns here in the lakes region. You would not be in the least interested in voting if your vacation property taxes were far less than they are now.

You do not live here, you do not have family here, you do not raise your children here, you do not earn a living here, you have no stake in the community other than your vacation property. Yet you have the temerity to think that you deserve the same right of franchise to vote as those who call the lakes region home?

Please explain how you came to this conclusion?...

Yankee, please explain to us how people who cannot vote and have no say at Town Meeting can be responsible for raising the tax bases? Last time I looked, it takes a Town Meeting vote to approve a budget or new article. Perhaps those voting are responsible?

As for the comments about many not having a stake in the community, I suggest it would help if you didn't make such broad-sweeping generalizations. Speaking only for myself, I care more deeply and passionately about NH and the Lakes Region than I do about any other town I've been voter in. I've been coming here my whole life, my parents live here and are buried here, and my stake in the community could not be higher. I'm not a unique exception.

While we might agree that the line needs to be drawn somewhere on who can vote where, the reason this topic keeps coming up is, ironically, in your note. My taxes on my home at the lake exceed those of my home where I vote. It is very frustrating to not have a say in those increasing taxes and how they are spent. Taxation without representation has been an issue before.

In anticipation of your next point, yes I do plan on moving soon so I can vote.

[AC2717]

I guess we all should take all our spending cash out of the area as well then, and 80% of the area will fall into a depression

[SAMIAM]

There is an argument to be made that summer residents contribute far more $$ to the system than local taxpayers. They do not use the schools and have very low use of other services such as fire, police, welfare, county nurse, meals on wheels etc. Since they are on vacation, they have more disposable income and probably spend more at local business' than the average person.
Not taking sides, just throwing that out there.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Yankee

You do not live here, you do not vote here. Period. What makes you think that you have the same rights as NH citizens? People like you from south of the border come here and are the ones raising the tax bases of all the towns here in the lakes region. You would not be in the least interested in voting if your vacation property taxes were far less than they are now.

You do not live here, you do not have family here, you do not raise your children here, you do not earn a living here, you have no stake in the community other than your vacation property. Yet you have the temerity to think that you deserve the same right of franchise to vote as those who call the lakes region home?

Please explain how you came to this conclusion?...

Yankee, you make some broad ranging conclusions here. I am more active with paying attention to what is going in the lakes region and in the town of Moultonborough, then I am where I currently live. This is not to say that I don't know what is going on where I live, I just chose to be more informed about what is happening where I ultimately want to retire, and live.

You claim we have no stake, but let me remind you in most of the communities around the lake, if you removed the vacation homes and that tax base that the towns would not be where they are today. Moultonborough would not be able to keep expanding the way it is. Meredith wouldn't have been able to expand the fire dept building and add a new ladder truck. And note this ladder truck was not required by the vacation home owners it was required by the development of the area. In short without the tax base that the second home owners provide the lake region would not be able to support the growth that it has been able to.

Now maybe you didn't want the growth and hay neither really did I, if I could turn back the clock 15 years and not let the area develop any futher I would... but what we would find, is that even more people would be out of work, and the area would not be continuing to grow, and the new jobs that keep getting created and sustaining the area would not be there.

Don't talk to harshly about second homeowners, we are not "vacation property owners" I spend roughly 35% of my time in NH, and that continues to grow more and more each year.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Yankee

You do not live here, you do not vote here. Period. What makes you think that you have the same rights as NH citizens? People like you from south of the border come here and are the ones raising the tax bases of all the towns here in the lakes region. You would not be in the least interested in voting if your vacation property taxes were far less than they are now.

You do not live here, you do not have family here, you do not raise your children here, you do not earn a living here, you have no stake in the community other than your vacation property. Yet you have the temerity to think that you deserve the same right of franchise to vote as those who call the lakes region home?

Please explain how you came to this conclusion?...

Yankee, you're coming on entirely too strong here. I don't know which town you live in but in Moultonborough the NRTP contribute in excess of 70% of the town's revenue. Without them them we would be in bad shape without a new Library, Public Safety Building, expanded and remodeled schools. plus a relatively new Town Hall. As previously mentioned, the NRTP receive virtually nothing in return (services) except a nice town where they maintain a non-primary residence.

Now if you mean flatlanders who move or retire here and then want sidewalks, street lighting, Readiness classes that have only 6 kids per class, eight to one student teacher ratios, adding $800,000 to already expanding budgets, $8,000,000 ten thousand square foot rec centers, then that's a different story. These are the people who are driving up our taxes, not the NRTP.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Yankee, you're coming on entirely too strong here. I don't know which town you live in but in Moultonborough the NRTP contribute in excess of 70% of the town's revenue. Without them them we would be in bad shape without a new Library, Public Safety Building, expanded and remodeled schools. plus a relatively new Town Hall. As previously mentioned, the NRTP receive virtually nothing in return (services) except a nice town were they maintain a non-primary residence.

Now if you mean flatlanders who move or retire here and then want sidewalks, street lighting, Readiness classes that have only 6 kids per class, eight to one student teacher ratios, adding $800,000 to already expanding budgets, $8,000,000 ten thousand square foot rec centers, then that's a different story. These are the people who are driving up our taxes, not the NRTP.

Sue Doe-Nym,

I do believe I am now speechless..... Thanks you for defining so well the fact that there are "flatlanders", or none disired NRTP, that want to make the area just like the Southern New England states..... And those of us that own property, don't want to change a dam thing.... We just want a nice peaceful place to retreat too....

Once again thanks

[phoenix]

I have had a second home in Moultonboro for 25 years and spend around 5 months a year there. I don't think it would be a good idea to have us vote but surely our concerns should be listened to and as Sue says we pay a majority of the taxes. So a little bit of thanks and understanding might be in order.

[upthesaukee]

I can only speak for Alton, but at the Town Meetings before SB2 became our way of life, non-residents were able to speak on an issue or issues that had an effect on them. Occasionly, someone would take advantage of that, but not very often.

Because of other commitments since we have gone to deliberative sessions, I have not been to one, but I would believe that you can also speak there as well.

If memory serves me correctly, you simply needed to register at the door and state which article(s) you wished to address.

Can you vote? No. Can you address your issues? yes. Will it make a difference? Don't know until you make the effort and try.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

I can only speak for Alton, but at the Town Meetings before SB2 became our way of life, non-residents were able to speak on an issue or issues that had an effect on them. Occasionly, someone would take advantage of that, but not very often.

Because of other commitments since we have gone to deliberative sessions, I have not been to one, but I would believe that you can also speak there as well.

If memory serves me correctly, you simply needed to register at the door and state which article(s) you wished to address.

Can you vote? No. Can you address your issues? yes. Will it make a difference? Don't know until you make the effort and try.

Non-residents have to get a motion to speak at a deliberative session - including just asking a simple question. It's not hard - just go up to the mic, state your name, state you're not a voter and would like permission to ask a question or make a statement. A member of the Board of Selectmen or School Board (depending on whether you're at a town deliberative session or school deliberative session), Budget Committee, or voting members in attendance will motion for you to speak. We've had this happen in the past when the press had questions about a particular warrant article.

Non-residents have a voice at zoning hearings, too, if they're an abutter that's been notified of a change to a property that their property may border, such as when they're a request for a zoning variance by the owner.



You do have to register with the Supervisors of the Checklist when you arrive at the Deliberative Session (whether it's town or school - doesn't matter).

[CrawfordCentury]

Originally Posted by Yankee

You do not live here, you do not vote here. Period. What makes you think that you have the same rights as NH citizens? People like you from south of the border come here and are the ones raising the tax bases of all the towns here in the lakes region. You would not be in the least interested in voting if your vacation property taxes were far less than they are now.

You do not live here, you do not have family here, you do not raise your children here, you do not earn a living here, you have no stake in the community other than your vacation property. Yet you have the temerity to think that you deserve the same right of franchise to vote as those who call the lakes region home?

Please explain how you came to this conclusion?...

Counter question. Let's take for example a yearround resident with no job, a kid - a regular at the welfare office/food pantry, and who is living with their folks. This person is more enfranchised than a property-owning 'tourist' who might spend as much as 200 days a year here.

Is this appropriate by your estimation?

In case you're wondering, I've lived in NH my whole life. As has my wife, whose family is 'from here' going on 400 years.

Anyhoo, in spite of the love fest you find yourself in the midst of here, it's prolly a good thing that someone chime in now and again to remind the folks from away and the transplants that us locals get grumpy time and again.

(Personally, I'm not so much grumpy - really more irascible. The summer folk just consider me to be part of the local color. Easier with irascibility than grumpiness).

[Bear Islander]

Originally Posted by Yankee

You do not live here, you do not vote here. Period. What makes you think that you have the same rights as NH citizens? People like you from south of the border come here and are the ones raising the tax bases of all the towns here in the lakes region. You would not be in the least interested in voting if your vacation property taxes were far less than they are now.

You do not live here, you do not have family here, you do not raise your children here, you do not earn a living here, you have no stake in the community other than your vacation property. Yet you have the temerity to think that you deserve the same right of franchise to vote as those who call the lakes region home?

Please explain how you came to this conclusion?...

Sorry, it's just not that simple. If you own what some might call a "vacation home" in a lakes area town you can simply declare it to be your primary residence and then you can vote in that town. And no matter what anybody tells you, there is no length of stay requirement nor does it matter how many nights you sleep in you "vacation" home. If you have more than one residence YOU decide which is your primary residence.

You will have to get a local drivers license. On the plus side your fishing license is cheaper.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I have had a second home in Moultonboro for 25 years and spend around 5 months a year there. I don't think it would be a good idea to have us vote but surely our concerns should be listened to and as Sue says we pay a majority of the taxes. So a little bit of thanks and understanding might be in order.

Several years ago Moultonborough had Summer Town Informational Meetings just so NRTP could learn what was happening in town and have an opportunity to voice their opinions. The first one was in perhaps 2006 and held in the school auditorium and there were maybe 15 to 20 NRTPs in attendance. The town was represented by the selectmen, the Town Administrator, Chairs of both Planning and Zoning Boards, Conservation Commission Chair, Police Chief, Fire Chief, Code Enforcement Officer, Town Moderator, Tax Collector, Town Clerk, Nurse, and probably others. The school was represented by the School Superindent, the Business Manager, and both school principles. The following year the same meeting was done but fewer NRPT attended. Now the meetings are made a part of a Selectmen's meeting and held at Town Hall.

Needless to say, Moultonborough is very much aware of the contributions made by NRPT. The question is, why were the Summer Informational Meetings so poorly attended?

-held on a Saturday
- people not interested
- people feel town is doing good job

The town is very interested in the views of NRTPs who, by the way, are welcome to attend town meetings, be recognized as an NRPT and speak.

[CrawfordCentury]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

If you own what some might call a "vacation home" in a lakes area town you can simply declare it to be your primary residence and then you can vote in that town.

Can't speak for the Yankee, but I think this post gets closer to my reckoning of the region's change in culture and the attendant impact on town budgets.

Lots of dwellings are erected by them that intend to use it as a secondary residence/vacation home. The sometime denizen of said dwelling is what's been classified here as a NRTP.

Now unless this second home was real shoddily built, it's probaly going to outlast its original p/t occupant. In many cases, the second owner may purchase the house and live here full time, and bring with them all of the need for year-round services. Even more so if they're relocating from a place where there are more services than what's found in rural towns in central NH.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by CrawfordCentury

Can't speak for the Yankee, but I think this post gets closer to my reckoning of the region's change in culture and the attendant impact on town budgets.

Lots of dwellings are erected by them that intend to use it as a secondary residence/vacation home. The sometime denizen of said dwelling is what's been classified here as a NRTP.

Now unless this second home was real shoddily built, it's probaly going to outlast its original p/t occupant. In many cases, the second owner may purchase the house and live here full time, and bring with them all of the need for year-round services. Even more so if they're relocating from a place where there are more services than what's found in rural towns in central NH.

PLEASE, most of us are here bacause we don't want all those frills and services that we purposely moved away from. If you retire here and convert your summer residence that's fine, but remember why you came here in the first place. You didn't come here for all of the suburban amenities you had in suburbia so please don't screw it up for the rest of us.

Sorry to be so strong, but it's exactly the "need for year round services" that is changing the character of Lakes Region towns.

[Seaplane Pilot]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Sorry, it's just not that simple. If you own what some might call a "vacation home" in a lakes area town you can simply declare it to be your primary residence and then you can vote in that town. And no matter what anybody tells you, there is no length of stay requirement nor does it matter how many nights you sleep in you "vacation" home. If you have more than one residence YOU decide which is your primary residence.

You will have to get a local drivers license. On the plus side your fishing license is cheaper.

Unless you live in one of the many condos in Laconia that the Town claims can't be used for a permanent residence. I still can't believe that someone hasn't challenged this with a class-action lawsuit.

[Woodsy]

I think NRTP should not have a vote in the town meeting process.... HOWEVER they should be allowed to speak, question decisions etc... Its thier money too!

Here in the Lakes region the needs of residents and non-residents are drastically different. Some things like Police & Fire protection have to be based on the maximum (summer) town population while other things like the school budget have alot more variables (population, state education requirements, federal education requirements etc.)

More often than not its the full time residents who have a more vested interest in whats best for the town long term... most of the NRTP people I know complain about the taxes they pay for nothing, usually starting with schools and working thier way up the ladder.

Expensive as any given town project may seem... its usually cheaper to do now rather than later...


Woodsy

[randalnh]

When I moved to NH in 1992, it occured to me that everyone who is a resident of a town and at least 18 years old can vote for town-funded issues, yet the financial responsibilities and obligations pursuant to that voting is burdened only by the property owners, including the NRTPs.

I think if this system is to continue that only property owners should be able to vote, unless you want to start an income tax (OMG!) and let all of the apartment dwellers and non-property owners share in the cost of education, town services, etc. The taxation system in NH is messed-up.

[phoenix]

fine to say you can go and speak but the meeting is in March so most NRTP's are not around.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

PLEASE, most of us are here bacause we don't want all those frills and services that we purposely moved away from. If you retire here and convert your summer residence that's fine, but remember why you came here in the first place. You didn't come here for all of the suburban amenities you had in suburbia so please don't screw it up for the rest of us.

Sorry to be so strong, but it's exactly the "need for year round services" that is changing the character of Lakes Region towns.

You said it perfectly Sue. It is not the "summer people" , it's the ones who move here because they love the way it is and then want all the amenities!

[Heaven]

Originally Posted by randalnh

When I moved to NH in 1992, it occured to me that everyone who is a resident of a town and at least 18 years old can vote for town-funded issues, yet the financial responsibilities and obligations pursuant to that voting is burdened only by the property owners, including the NRTPs.

I think if this system is to continue that only property owners should be able to vote, unless you want to start an income tax (OMG!) and let all of the apartment dwellers and non-property owners share in the cost of education, town services, etc. The taxation system in NH is messed-up.

I have always figured that renters do pay property taxes through the rent they pay to the owner. The higher the taxes in a town, the higher the rent is likely to be.

[randalnh]

Heaven - I agree that renters may pay some fraction of the taxes in a town, but it is not even close to the amounts that single family homes pay. Also, you have lots of 18+ kids living at home, voting and not paying taxes. I still think the tax system in NH is archaic and inequitable.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by randalnh

When I moved to NH in 1992, it occured to me that everyone who is a resident of a town and at least 18 years old can vote for town-funded issues, yet the financial responsibilities and obligations pursuant to that voting is burdened only by the property owners, including the NRTPs.

I think if this system is to continue that only property owners should be able to vote, unless you want to start an income tax (OMG!) and let all of the apartment dwellers and non-property owners share in the cost of education, town services, etc. The taxation system in NH is messed-up.

The old British Feudal was built on the principal that only property owners could vote. My ancestors revolted against England to create this democracy now known as the United States, many giving their lives. I suppose that democracy is not for everyone; there are many other options around the world. I kind of like it here.

[Pineedles]

What an impassioned group of folks! I would love to meet you all at the next Forum Fest! Are there times that you can't attend?

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Sorry, it's just not that simple. If you own what some might call a "vacation home" in a lakes area town you can simply declare it to be your primary residence and then you can vote in that town. And no matter what anybody tells you, there is no length of stay requirement nor does it matter how many nights you sleep in you "vacation" home. If you have more than one residence YOU decide which is your primary residence.

You will have to get a local drivers license. On the plus side your fishing license is cheaper.

The state of NH/Belknap County required the condo association that we own in, would never be declared a primary residence for all that own in the assoc. It is right in our by-laws. But yet again I have to pay all the real estate taxes and be subject to their laws, taxes, restrictions, etc..

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

Unless you live in one of the many condos in Laconia that the Town claims can't be used for a permanent residence. I still can't believe that someone hasn't challenged this with a class-action lawsuit.

I live in one of these, I have heard it has been challenged before, but have not heard of enything comng of it or currently open. I would definatley sign up for a class action lawsuit. Only problem, I do not have to funds available to start the process before everyone would jump on with me. Anyone want to start it?

[tummyman]

Yankee, I must take exception to your comments. I am a NRTP (for over 35 years) and have usually felt local government was fairly well run. There are a few notable exceptions, but on the whole, most local leaders get it right a high percentage of the time. However, attitudes that keep poking NRTP's in the eye may rouse some latent feelings to be included in a more formal way. Most understand non-voting relationships....but many certainly do not like it thrown in our face. How would you feel if the whole local tax structure were turned upside down and government was totally funded on a pay for service concept. You pay for schools if you use them, you pay if the police or fire come to your emergency. You pay for the portion of the road that is fixed in front of your land....and on and on. How about an admission fee for using the proposed re-use of the Lions Club? Maybe only "residents" should pay for the county nursing home expansion. Bet many "voting residents" would certainly see their out of pocket costs rise dramatically and they would not like it. Lets try to all be civil and enjoy this area for what it is....not what some seem to display against good, honest NRTP folks who's local property and use help fund local jobs, businesses, government, pensions, etc. etc. etc. BTW, members of my family did live here, did work here, did go to the schools here, are buried here, and have been here for over 65 years one way or another. Life is short.... we need to temper the rhetoric !!

[Argie's Wife]

On the simplest level: If taxes take a big hike, then people are likely to move or rent out their properties. New properties aren't developed and people are less likely to do renovations/additions. This will lead to a decrease in the town's assessment value - not what a town wants!

As someone who lives in a town with a lot of NRTP's, and who has closely (very closely!) watched the budget process for both the town and the schools, I can tell you that careful attention is paid to any increases. This year our elementary school brought in a level-funded budget and our town pretty much did, too. Our high school had a slight increase of 2%-3% and it took a lot (and i mean a LOT) of discussion to get the budget committee to buy-in (and not all members did!)

In short, when there's a tax increase it isn't just for the NRTP's - it's a hike across the board and effects the year-'round citizens, too. Trust me when I say that the locals are even less fond of the increases. For many of us, this is the only property (our home) that we own.

Some things in life are inevitable and taxes are one of them.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by randalnh

Heaven - I agree that renters may pay some fraction of the taxes in a town, but it is not even close to the amounts that single family homes pay. Also, you have lots of 18+ kids living at home, voting and not paying taxes. I still think the tax system in NH is archaic and inequitable.

If that 18+ year old drives a car and registers it in their town in NH, then they are paying a tax.

There's more to the way that NH raises revenue than just property tax:

Interest & Dividends Tax
Inheritance and Estate Tax
Business Profits Tax
Business Enterprise Tax
Communications Services Tax
Electricity Consumption Tax
Meals and Rentals Tax
Tobacco Tax
Real Estate Transfer Tax
Timber Tax
Gravel Tax
State Education Property Tax
Utility Property Tax
Local Property Tax
Property Tax Rates

Source: New Hampshire Department of Revenue Administration (DRA)

[randalnh]

Slick - although you may be correct about feudal land ownership in England way back when, your ancestors most likely left England because they could not own land.

Argie's Wife - too bad we cannot repeal the property tax and just increase a few of the others on the list, like the Timber Tax or Gravel Tax.

It is still my opinion that taxing properties as the primary income for a town/state does not share the burden equally among all of the citizens. Although some tax might be justified on property, the level at which NH towns tax their property is, in my view, excessive. Funny how my assessed property value has gone down 30% in the last 2 years, but my taxes have continued to go up.

[TOAD]

Originally Posted by randalnh

Slick - although you may be correct about feudal land ownership in England way back when, your ancestors most likely left England because they could not own land.

Argie's Wife - too bad we cannot repeal the property tax and just increase a few of the others on the list, like the Timber Tax or Gravel Tax.

It is still my opinion that taxing properties as the primary income for a town/state does not share the burden equally among all of the citizens. Although some tax might be justified on property, the level at which NH towns tax their property is, in my view, excessive. Funny how my assessed property value has gone down 30% in the last 2 years, but my taxes have continued to go up.

Come on down to Massachusetts. Then you will have a "real" reason to complain about valuations and property tax! We are retiring to NH because we can cut our real estate taxes in half, have twice as much land, and 2X bigger house. In comparison, you already in NH have a real bargain as far as all taxes go.

As far as really "owning" any real estate in this country is a fallacy. Just stop paying your taxes on a property and see how long you own it. You are really only renting what you perceive to own from the government.....and that government is becoming more greedy and intrusive with each passing day.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by randalnh

Slick - although you may be correct about feudal land ownership in England way back when, your ancestors most likely left England because they could not own land.

Argie's Wife - too bad we cannot repeal the property tax and just increase a few of the others on the list, like the Timber Tax or Gravel Tax.

It is still my opinion that taxing properties as the primary income for a town/state does not share the burden equally among all of the citizens. Although some tax might be justified on property, the level at which NH towns tax their property is, in my view, excessive. Funny how my assessed property value has gone down 30% in the last 2 years, but my taxes have continued to go up.

That depends on where you live... that's not the norm for all towns. A timber tax or gravel tax increase would also put skids on new building or renovations... Do you really want a state income tax and/or sales tax?

[Yankee]

I apologize for my absence in this debate. It was not my intent to add to this thread and not be active in the discussion. Some of you have said that I have made generalizations and have come on too strong. IMO of course completely disagree with you.

The proponents of this debate are missing a vital fact: Voting is a right not a privilege. So when I say that you do not live here, you do not have family here, you do not raise your children here, you do not earn a living here, you have no stake in the community other than your vacation property I say so without malice. And those are not a generalizations, or coming on too strong, they are facts.

Let me inform you of the slippery slope that you are treading, by relating recent legislation that will allow me to draw a parallel to this debate. Many of proponents of HB 847 are non-residents that used their $$ and influence to get that law enacted. I ask you, now that this precedence has been set, what's next on their agenda? Where's that slippery slope I'm talking about? I'll tell you: Next your boat will be too big, it has too many engines, the speed limit is still too high, power boating will be limited to only certain times of the day and to certain places on the lake, etc...I could go on but I think that you get my point.

Back to this discussion, let's say that non-residents are allowed to vote in local elections. What positions/seats do you propose? BTW they differ from town to town. And after that, since non-residents can vote locally, why not for their state representative? And then since they can vote for their state rep, why not for the US congressional/senate and governor's seats?

I never thought that I be saying this, but I agree with Bear Islander. If it is so important to you that you must have a say in the local and state affairs here in NH, denounce your current state affiliation and move here to NH.

It's a privilege to own vacation property here in the lakes region or anywhere else, it is not anyone's right. The same goes for your franchise to vote.

[jmen24]

randalnh, increasing the the Timber tax and Gravel tax to offset current property taxes would require the complete destruction of this state in order to fund. It would require a vast amount of timber and gravel to be harvested from the area to generate the revenue or it would require such a high tax that these industries would go away from this state completly, then where do we go to get the money.

I have said it before, but simply building a structure within a state should not afford you the ability to have the same rights as the resident citizens of the state. If you want the ability to take advantage of the lower costs of recreating in the state or would like to be able to stand up and vote, then you need to change your residency. It is a matter of what is more important to you, having a say in the town you live in and your children go to school in or a vote on how the taxes on your vacation property are spent.

As far as the argument of what if the tourist pull up and leave, is a funny one. Where are they going to go? Think our taxes are bad, go to Vermont or Maine and see how that works out for you. Folks could also go the border states to the south to vacation, but we all know why that is off the table.

Anyway, you should have the ability to stand up and voice your concerns to the town. I know New London does this and they typically have a packed house for this meeting, which takes place the week prior to town meeting. Granted the lakeside community on Sunapee is a very different crowd than that of Winni (not slighting anyone, but it is true, as all communities around water bodies are), so it really comes down to how important these issues really are to you as a property owner, if you are not willing to voice your opinion than you have no right to complain, if you are than keep at it and know that you are trying.

Any smart community is not going to allow a small group of people to completely change the way of life in a town, if they do, than it is their own fault and I am not going to feel bad for them.

But remember folks, most were privy to the information of property taxes prior to purchasing or building a home in the area, the time to consider the ramifications of this has long passed. For those that are being taxed out of a property that has been held in the family for generations have only the people in the forementioned group to blame, your neighbors. I have already talked on this point, which is considerably deeper than the discussion at hand.

[Yankee]

Originally Posted by jmen24

randalnh, increasing the the Timber tax and Gravel tax to offset current property taxes would require the complete destruction of this state in order to fund. It would require a vast amount of timber and gravel to be harvested from the area to generate the revenue or it would require such a high tax that these industries would go away from this state completly, then where do we go to get the money.

I have said it before, but simply building a structure within a state should not afford you the ability to have the same rights as the resident citizens of the state. If you want the ability to take advantage of the lower costs of recreating in the state or would like to be able to stand up and vote, then you need to change your residency. It is a matter of what is more important to you, having a say in the town you live in and your children go to school in or a vote on how the taxes on your vacation property are spent.

As far as the argument of what if the tourist pull up and leave, is a funny one. Where are they going to go? Think our taxes are bad, go to Vermont or Maine and see how that works out for you. Folks could also go the border states to the south to vacation, but we all know why that is off the table.

Anyway, you should have the ability to stand up and voice your concerns to the town. I know New London does this and they typically have a packed house for this meeting, which takes place the week prior to town meeting. Granted the lakeside community on Sunapee is a very different crowd than that of Winni (not slighting anyone, but it is true, as all communities around water bodies are), so it really comes down to how important these issues really are to you as a property owner, if you are not willing to voice your opinion than you have no right to complain, if you are than keep at it and know that you are trying.

Any smart community is not going to allow a small group of people to completely change the way of life in a town, if they do, than it is their own fault and I am not going to feel bad for them.

But remember folks, most were privy to the information of property taxes prior to purchasing or building a home in the area, the time to consider the ramifications of this has long passed. For those that are being taxed out of a property that has been held in the family for generations have only the people in the forementioned group to blame, your neighbors. I have already talked on this point, which is considerably deeper than the discussion at hand.

Well said Jmen24.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

The old British Feudal was built on the principal that only property owners could vote. My ancestors revolted against England to create this democracy now known as the United States, many giving their lives. I suppose that democracy is not for everyone; there are many other options around the world. I kind of like it here.

We are a Republic NOT a Democracy... Democracies eventually fail... Democracies rule by mob NOT law!

I want to live in a Republic... the same one our Founding Fathers gave us to protect... not in your Democracy.

Sorry I'm a little blunt... but I'm getting tired of people not understanding and appreciating what they have and allowing the powers to be, to destroy our nation while clapping and cheering!

[swnoel]

I'm in favor of repealing all taxes , including federal income tax....you want it ,you pay for it!

We're currently being taxed out of existence and we're on the verge of revolt!

Isn't this some of the same crap that resulted in this country being shaped?

[tis]

Originally Posted by swnoel

I'm in favor of repealing all taxes , including federal income tax....you want it ,you pay for it!

We're currently being taxed out of existence and we're on the verge of revolt!

Isn't this some of the same crap that resulted in this country being shaped?

I second that. We are in big trouble.

[phoenix]

so would you then have no defense budget

[This'nThat]

Originally Posted by phoenix

so would you then have no defense budget

Only if you changed the Constitution. Providing for the common Defense is the law of the land.

What isn't in the Constitution? Oh, a few things. School lunches. Uniforms for the band. Health care. Internet and telephone for everyone. Free Government home winterizing. Welfare for life. And many others.

Defense? Definitely part of our Constitution.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by swnoel

I'm in favor of repealing all taxes , including federal income tax....you want it ,you pay for it!

We're currently being taxed out of existence and we're on the verge of revolt!

Isn't this some of the same crap that resulted in this country being shaped?

...Federal issues aside....

Let's say this idea was implemented on just the town-level... I'm playing Devil's Advocate here...

On the flip side you could say:
You can only receive the services you've paid for, so unless you've paid your Highway Tax, you can't use the roads.

If you haven't paid your Fire Department Tax, your house will be left to burn and don't call the ambulance when you need one because they won't come to get you, since you haven't paid that tax.

If you haven't paid your School Tax, your children can't get a public education.

If you haven't paid your Patriotic Tax, you can't go to the fireworks on Independence Day.

If you haven't paid your Police Department Tax, you can't get any of the protection servies offered by your local police.

If you haven't paid for your Communications Tax you can't use the internet, telephone, or cell phones.

If you haven't paid your Cemetary Tax, you don't have a plot of land in your area that's managed after you die.

...and so on...

Really, is this a good idea? Sounds rather Orwellian to me...

When you think about it, there's a lot that go to for the management and upkeep of each town's departments and infrastructures. Your taxes go to these things (and more!) and the running of them, including the policies, equipment schedules, and other things that run your town. Much more than you may be aware of... have you given much thought to the management of the street lights or the maintenance of the police cruisers or the upkeep of the fire departments' equipment or even just the Veterans' Day Parade in your town? Well, someone does.

I highly recommend people get involved with their town's budget process. If your town has a budget committee then their meetings are posted by law and are open to the public. You will get a much better idea of how things are run - and it's very educational - trust me! I think you may just come away realizing that things in your town are run much better than you're seeing just in the papers or people's letters to the editor. And if not, you do have a time during the meeting called "Public Input" that will allow you to speak to the committee and town's management.

If you don't get involved and especially if you don't vote, then you can't complain because you've allowed someone else to decide for you.

[NoRegrets]

I agree that we need to have an advanced society but when John Lynch wanted to cut back on state pension contributions 294 agencise were represented by lawyers to stop it! Two Hundred Ninety Four agencies! In NH, Just think about big states. The state has enjoyed great growth but when we try to cut back - Oh My God - How dare we! It is so complicated that the sum of all the parts is out of control and the people that fund this massive organization are lashing out now that they have been subjected to a few years of ression and the agencies or government big wigs do not seem to know where their source of funding comes from.

The small agencies at the bottom of the barrel are always struggling.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

I agree that we need to have an advanced society but when John Lynch wanted to cut back on state pension contributions 294 agencise were represented by lawyers to stop it! Two Hundred Ninety Four agencies! In NH, Just think about big states. The state has enjoyed great growth but when we try to cut back - Oh My God - How dare we! It is so complicated that the sum of all the parts is out of control and the people that fund this massive organization are lashing out now that they have been subjected to a few years of ression and the agencies or government big wigs do not seem to know where their source of funding comes from.

The small agencies at the bottom of the barrel are always struggling.

Do you realize that Lynch did cut back on the state's contribution to the state pension fund? This was done simply by making all towns and municipalities pay 5% more. In addition, Concord made it illegal for towns to pass the increase on to any employees !! And you wonder how towns have problems controlling costs.

[Yankee]

I often wonder why no one ever questions the continuance of providing pensions and other retirement benefits to state and local government employees. Most private businesses eliminated those benefits over a decade or so ago. Yet we the taxpayers(in any state), not only have to save for our retirement, but also continue to share in subsidizing these pensions benefits?

[fatlazyless]

Question:The State of New Hampshire has no say in how much of a pension a town chooses to pay its' retired employees, so why should the state be responsible for covering 35% of the town's pension payout?

Answer: It's a New Hampshire tradition!

[AC2717]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

...Federal issues aside....

Let's say this idea was implemented on just the town-level... I'm playing Devil's Advocate here...

On the flip side you could say:
You can only receive the services you've paid for, so unless you've paid your Highway Tax, you can't use the roads.

If you haven't paid your Fire Department Tax, your house will be left to burn and don't call the ambulance when you need one because they won't come to get you, since you haven't paid that tax.

If you haven't paid your School Tax, your children can't get a public education.

If you haven't paid your Patriotic Tax, you can't go to the fireworks on Independence Day.

If you haven't paid your Police Department Tax, you can't get any of the protection servies offered by your local police.

If you haven't paid for your Communications Tax you can't use the internet, telephone, or cell phones.

If you haven't paid your Cemetary Tax, you don't have a plot of land in your area that's managed after you die.

...and so on...

Really, is this a good idea? Sounds rather Orwellian to me...

When you think about it, there's a lot that go to for the management and upkeep of each town's departments and infrastructures. Your taxes go to these things (and more!) and the running of them, including the policies, equipment schedules, and other things that run your town. Much more than you may be aware of... have you given much thought to the management of the street lights or the maintenance of the police cruisers or the upkeep of the fire departments' equipment or even just the Veterans' Day Parade in your town? Well, someone does.

I highly recommend people get involved with their town's budget process. If your town has a budget committee then their meetings are posted by law and are open to the public. You will get a much better idea of how things are run - and it's very educational - trust me! I think you may just come away realizing that things in your town are run much better than you're seeing just in the papers or people's letters to the editor. And if not, you do have a time during the meeting called "Public Input" that will allow you to speak to the committee and town's management.

If you don't get involved and especially if you don't vote, then you can't complain because you've allowed someone else to decide for you.

I am perfectly fine with paying these things for me and my family, and paying my way, where I like to draw the line is when others do not and I have to pay their way as well

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

Do you realize that Lynch did cut back on the state's contribution to the state pension fund? This was done simply by making all towns and municipalities pay 5% more. In addition, Concord made it illegal for towns to pass the increase on to any employees !! And you wonder how towns have problems controlling costs.

Good point. If the Cities and towns are the only ones responsible to a budget (like a household), then maybe these benefits are too expensive and need to be revisited. As Yankee pointed out, the private sector had to eliminate this benefit to stay competitive on the global market. The public sector has continued the benefit and now is having trouble paying for it.

Globalization is having a very negative effect on the working class in our country. Many of the real sustainable jobs are gone and will not come back.

[jmen24]

Private sector pensions still do exist, they are just not handing out new ones. My father has been at the same job for approaching 30 years and still has a pension (that is contributed to by the corp), but the cut off for the new guys seems accurate about 10 years ago.

[fatlazyless]

Here's an email comment I stumbled across in today's March 29 Union Leader.

"My father was a public employee and has been sopping his pension with COLA's for thirty years. And lately, with his Cadillac medical plan, the state he worked for has shelled out far more to the insurance companies than he ever earned as an employee. My father remarked to me many times, "The masses are asses", the government will always get their money out of the masses to fund the generous pension benefits for their retirees.

How correct he was. Now, with the advancement in medical procedures to prolong life, thirty years collecting a retirement check will be the norm.

Just be ready to pay and pay and pay."

Paul, Bedford

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

Good point. If the Cities and towns are the only ones responsible to a budget (like a household), then maybe these benefits are too expensive and need to be revisited. As Yankee pointed out, the private sector had to eliminate this benefit to stay competitive on the global market. The public sector has continued the benefit and now is having trouble paying for it.

Globalization is having a very negative effect on the working class in our country. Many of the real sustainable jobs are gone and will not come back.

Forgot to mention that the state retirement is a Defined Benefit plan and not a Defined Contribution plan such as a 401k that is used in the private sector. Needless to say, the state plan is underfunded (basically broke) and does not have sufficient funds to meet its furure commitments. Guess who will be asked to step up and fund these shortfalls?

[Sman]

It would be interesting to take, say the town of Gilford, mentioned previously. How much of the property tax revenue comes from the NRTP base and how much comes from year around residents. Then calculate the town of Gilford budget without the NRTP money. The bricks on your school are red and shinny and you are welcome.

Face it, the year around residents are getting the deal of a lifetime, which is why there are not many here other than a few, trying to put the NRTP folks in their place when the topic of voting comes up. The NRTP folks are lining the local town budgets with millions of dollars. So politely smile at them because lets face it they are not going away, (insert movie quote here) like Jack Nicholson said in a few good men "deep down somewhere you don't talk about at parties, you want them here"

When I was a teenager I remember wanting the keys to the car and was smart enough not to argue when I was told, you will be home at 10PM.

Come on angry resident person, your getting a free ride, enjoy it

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Sman

It would be interesting to take, say the town of Gilford, mentioned previously. How much of the property tax revenue comes from the NRTP base and how much comes from year around residents. Then calculate the town of Gilford budget without the NRTP money. The bricks on your school are red and shinny and you are welcome.

Face it, the year around residents are getting the deal of a lifetime, which is why there are not many here other than a few, trying to put the NRTP folks in their place when the topic of voting comes up. The NRTP folks are lining the local town budgets with millions of dollars. So politely smile at them because lets face it they are not going away, (insert movie quote here) like Jack Nicholson said in a few good men "deep down somewhere you don't talk about at parties, you want them here"

When I was a teenager I remember wanting the keys to the car and was smart enough not to argue when I was told, you will be home at 10PM.

Come on angry resident person, your getting a free ride, enjoy it

Non-angry, full-time resident and tax payer and voter person here.

I don't think there's been any hostility on this thread about the non-resident tax-payers' contribution to the tax pool. Just the opposite. Considering we live in a tourist area, this is part of the culture. It's not like this is a transient tourist area like Orlando, FL or Nashville, TN where people only stay for a weekend or a week. The summer folks add a lot more to our town but also utilize our resources - library, police, fire, highway, etc. - so it's only fair that they are also expected to contribute via property tax. (And I'm not against a state income tax or a sales tax but that's fodder for a different thread...)

And 'free ride'? I dunno about that. I pay taxes here too in my little town where I reside and vote. If I was lucky enough to have a summer home and enjoyed the perks and infrastructure of that town where I wasn't a resident, I suppose I'd still be happy to pay my taxes. But I can't afford that - that doesn't make me a freeloader. I sorta resent your tone that we do nothing but suck your money from you, really. When your taxes or home assessments go up, so do mine.

As a good friend of mine once said: If taxes are the price I have to pay to be an American, then I'm glad to pay it.

And as I said earlier: If you're concerned about spending, then get involved.

Hey, ice is out and it's almost time to break out the boats and fishin' rods - good times ahead!

[Yankee]

Originally Posted by Sman

Come on angry resident person, your getting a free ride, enjoy it

I'm going to assume that your referring to my responses to this thread. I was not nor am I angry now about this subject, although you seem to be in some sort of emotional distress regarding the taxes that you pay. I was trying to stress the unfairness of being allowed vote to based on paying taxes vs residency. Vacation property owners like you are your own worst enemy. You buy lakefront property, see your property taxes go up, then start to complain about how much and subsequently how it's spent. Well, I've got news for you: As long as the demand for vacation property in the lakes region out paces the supply (and there's only so much lake frontage), your property value and hence property tax has nowhere to go but up. It's a cycle that's been repeated for several decades now, and will continue.

And I can quote Nicholson too: "Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here"

[Sman]

Yankee, good morning

Next your boat will be too big, it has too many engines, the speed limit is still too high, power boating will be limited to only certain times of the day and to certain places on the lake, etc...I could go on but I think that you get my point.

- I do and I agree with it

I often wonder why no one ever questions the continuance of providing pensions and other retirement benefits to state and local government employees. Most private businesses eliminated those benefits over a decade or so ago. Yet we the taxpayers(in any state), not only have to save for our retirement, but also continue to share in subsidizing these pensions benefits?

- Federal level too

I was interpretting your post as you were angry at a group of folks that contribute a lot of money, and "free ride" should have read more like discounted ride, either way that was my point. I do not live south of the boarder and I am not in the group raising the tax base, I did paint my shed though

[fatlazyless]

I recall a Meredith statistic from the town website that said 42% of the residences were non-resident in about 2005, which was down from 47% in about 1995.

Just a guess here, but could be that 70-75% of all local property taxes comes from the Meredith waterfronts?

On the non-resident waterfront.....that's where the money is...and that's why New Hampshire has always gone with a property tax system....it's money coming from somewhere else. Meanwhile, NH residents who work in Mass get to pay both a Mass income tax plus a NH prop tax....because NH has no personal income tax with which to have a reciprogate Mass-NH income tax deal...way-to-go NH!

[NoRegrets]

I now know why I am addicted to the Forum. Each thread reads like a mini novel.

We do a great at starting the threads, then get into a political or belief debate, elevate some ranting, then coming to reality that we all love the lake and the forum.

I think we need a slight alignment or reality check with the use of the written language. We inject adjectives and adverbs to describe tones or feelings about a subject. These ate then interpreted literally as a slam or insult about opposing viewpoints. Even if there are no adjectives or adverbs present some will even "read" them into the posts and respond from their personal perspectives. I really do not think anyone begrudges others fortunes, losses, or taxes.

When it is all said and done someone presents some fantastic statistics and we are all the better for having particpated.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

I now know why I am addicted to the Forum. Each thread reads like a mini novel.

We do a great at starting the threads, then get into a political or belief debate, elevate some ranting, then coming to reality that we all love the lake and the forum.

I think we need a slight alignment or reality check with the use of the written language. We inject adjectives and adverbs to describe tones or feelings about a subject. These ate then interpreted literally as a slam or insult about opposing viewpoints. Even if there are no adjectives or adverbs present some will even "read" them into the posts and respond from their personal perspectives. I really do not think anyone begrudges others fortunes, losses, or taxes.

When it is all said and done someone presents some fantastic statistics and we are all the better for having particpated.

No kidding, missed an entire section of postings that would have saved me some time. Just need to keep to myself and finish my coffee.

My appologies!

[TiltonBB]

So.............The owners of boat slips at Mountain View Yacht Club in Gilford contribute over $400,000 annually to the town of Gilford. The can't use the town beach or the town dump. Is that fair? What do you think it costs the town of Gilford to provide services to that facility and those taxpayers each year? Do you think that it is a big win for Gilford?

Is the entire federal and state tax system fair? Some people posting here want to equate what they get in services with what they pay in taxes. If that theory worked isn't the entire income tax system unfair? Shouldn't your taxes go up when you have more children (dependents) and become a bigger burden on the system? Why should you pay less if you and your offspring are a larger financial burden on the system than a single person with the same home and the same income?

I'm not expressing an opinion, just asking the questions.

[NoRegrets]

Originally Posted by jmen24

No kidding, missed an entire section of postings that would have saved me some time. Just need to keep to myself and finish my coffee.

My appologies!

No, No, No! Do not keep to yourself or feel you should appologize... That would remove some of the color and value of the Forum! It is the chapters in the middle of a novel that make the story. It is not about the intro or last chapter.