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Old 09-08-2015, 04:15 PM   #1
DougNH
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Default What do they check for when pulled over by the MP

Long story short I was stopped by the MP this past Sunday about 11:00 am. It was at the no wake zone area across from the post office on Bear Island (I was heading northerly). The officer indicated I was going faster than headway within 150’ of another vessel. I may have been slightly faster but in doing so to keep control of my boat as I was in some large wakes due to some large boats approaching from the other direction. From the MP website ‘Headway speed is 6 mph or the slowest speed to travel and still maintain steerage.’ I was lucky to be going any faster than that and if I was maybe slightly over. My speedo does not register under 10 mph and it was sitting on zero, we have a 24’ boat, I was not putting out a wake.

Once stopped, they asked for my boat license, photo id and boat registration. While the first officer (younger) took my papers the other officer (older) did the safety inspection. I had six people on board including myself, two of which were young kids with life jackets on. Once the inspection was complete they said they were going to push off for a moment which lasted about 3-4 minutes and they were 20 feet or so away. They then came back handed back my papers, gave me a verbal warning for the headway speed, and also two plastic badges for the kids (nice touch).

So my question. When they requested a photo id I turned over my MA driver’s license. When they pushed off what were they checking? I see my boat license has a Certificate Number so did they look that up or maybe my name or possibly my MA driver’s license? The reason I ask as it seemed the younger officer was busy doing something while the other officer was piloting the boat and doing the safety inspection.

First time to be stopped in my 15 years on the lake, not a bad experience but not sure why they felt the need. There were many other boats around doing the same as it was reasonable busy with wakes all around. In fact when they first approached they indicated they were going to keep away until some large wakes passed then they pulled next to my boat.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:35 PM   #2
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I don't know the answer to your question but...

What does 150' look like, from my boat, from the MP boat?

I see guys threading the needle all the time, passing 50' or so away at speed or worse, plowing up a huge wake.

There are some rough seas that I encounter while closer than 150'. In those cases I sometimes pulse the throttle to lift the bow over the churning wakes.

Yes that exceeds what's legal but it makes more sense to me than taking one over the bow.
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Old 09-08-2015, 04:55 PM   #3
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DouNH;

They were checking that your registration and boating certificate were valid most likely.

Sounds to me like you did pretty good! OK, so the marine patrol stopped you for what they thought was an infraction...maybe you didn't think you did anything wrong but they did, no big deal...many of us have "rolled through the stop sign" in the past! Anyway, they did their required safety check which you obviously passed with flying colors (congrats!), gave you a simple warning, the kids got a couple of trinkets which I am sure they enjoyed and you were off on your way with no out of pocket expense. Everything and everyone respectful of each other...

You did good!

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Old 09-08-2015, 05:20 PM   #4
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Last week there was one on Winnisquam, near the sandbar, telling people to slow down in the no wake zone. I was one of them and was only doing 4mph according to my gps. He wasn't pulling anyone over, he was stopped, but he was telling everyone of us, four or five boats, going through to slow down.
No one was making wakes, so I have no idea what that was all about.

As for them backing off, and maybe checking status, well they are now really Sate Police, maybe they have been told to also check for warrants.
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Old 09-08-2015, 05:29 PM   #5
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I was definitely within 150’ of other boats, I guess I was questioning the headway speed. As ishoot308 said not a big deal and yes passed all the safety checks, in fact I was pulling out the items before being asked… Kids were thrilled with the badges. Funny thing is when we get back to our house my in-laws were visiting and the kids run in saying what the nice officers gave them… So that required a bit of explaining
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Old 09-08-2015, 08:07 PM   #6
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Is it mandatory to have another form of ID on you?

My licence stays in the car 95% of the time and since I boat daily I never take it with me. I'd push if it's mandatory to make it a combo licence like they do for motorcycle/car licence people.

Boat licence went in the boat day 1 of the season and has never left.
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Old 09-09-2015, 05:56 AM   #7
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All cops... will normally 'run' the names of the people they deal with just in case. If you are a witness instead of a 'subject' they will probably do it later when they are writing up their formal report. I understand the success rate for this tactic is low but it helps find a few people every day and it's a low-cost tool.

If you are a passenger in a traffic-type of stop it is not normal for your ID to be requested.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I just watch too much TV and cruise the internet. Always check with your attorney before shooting your mouth off, to a cop.
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:14 AM   #8
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Default Always been a problem.

Headway speed and no wake should not be interchangeable. Trying to navigate at headway speed without creating a wake can be a problem for some boats yet MP is trying to enforce the no wake rule when a boat is trying to maintain headway speed!

Get the drift? A PWC creates a wake in a slower speed than a large boat. A large boat cannot maintain headway speed in front of a PWC going at no wake!

A pontoon can maintain a faster headway speed than a boat, thus a pontoon cannot maintain headway speed in back of a boat.

You can witness this in any of the no wake channels. At time create chaos, when you can't control your boat because you had to shift to neutral.

Worst case a couple of years ago when the lake was high and the flow through the Weirs channel was strong, Thurston was complaining the boat wakes were disrupting the gas dock! The marine patrol was present and the results was a line of boats clear to Lilukilanis and beyond! Boats had a difficult time steering and many complained to the MP HQ. Since then I have not seen a repeat, although I have heard Thurston was upset by a certain decision.
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:49 AM   #9
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I have to put my boat into neutral all the time in the channel and have never had a problem maintaining control. A boat does not have to make a wake to maintain control.
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:08 AM   #10
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Personally.... I think No Wake is crap! Mostly because everybody thinks its a different speed based on their boat. Some boats can creep along at 1 -2 MPH while others need 4-6 MPH. There is a BIG difference between No Wake speed as defined in the RSA's and DEAD SLOW as some people are want to do!

For my 26 Donzi single, without having to shift into neutral constantly, 4-5 MPH is a good NWZ speed. My 22 Classic Blackhawk NWZ speed (motor at idle) was 6-7 MPH.

I personally think the NWZ should be changed to 5-MPH. 95% of the boats can very easily maintain steerage, the MP can easily enforce it, keeps the boat traffic moving on busy weekends and keeps erosion too a minimum.

You could even mount one of those solar powered radar units on the bridge over the channel to keep everyone in check...

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Old 09-09-2015, 09:19 AM   #11
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Winnisquamer I found this old thread (2007) on this subject. The officer asked for a photo id so I turned over my MA drives license. Not sure the exact rule either or what would have happened if I did not have a photo id with me. For me I always carry my wallet when boating and it contains my boat and driver’s license.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...hp/t-5168.html
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy View Post
Personally.... I think No Wake is crap! Mostly because everybody thinks its a different speed based on their boat. Some boats can creep along at 1 -2 MPH while others need 4-6 MPH. There is a BIG difference between No Wake speed as defined in the RSA's and DEAD SLOW as some people are want to do!

For my 26 Donzi single, without having to shift into neutral constantly, 4-5 MPH is a good NWZ speed. My 22 Classic Blackhawk NWZ speed (motor at idle) was 6-7 MPH.

I personally think the NWZ should be changed to 5-MPH. 95% of the boats can very easily maintain steerage, the MP can easily enforce it, keeps the boat traffic moving on busy weekends and keeps erosion too a minimum.

You could even mount one of those solar powered radar units on the bridge over the channel to keep everyone in check...

Woodsy

I agree with Woodsy. Here's what the law says. Headway speed is clearly defined, so there should be no ambiguity with the MP. In fact, I think this language can be interpreted in such a way that if the slowest speed your boat can go is 7mph, then that is legal. "Headway speed" is the defining language, then "No Wake" is tied to headway speed.

270-D:1 Definitions. – In this chapter:
I. "Boat'' means every description of watercraft other than seaplanes, capable of being used or used as a means of transportation on the water and which is primarily used for noncommercial purposes, or leased, rented, loaned or chartered to another for such use.
II. "Commercial vessel'' means any vessel carrying passengers for hire as a common carrier of passengers or property.
III. "Commissioner'' means the commissioner of the department of safety.
IV. "Director'' means the director of the division of state police, department of safety.
V. "Division'' means the division of state police, department of safety.
VI. "Headway speed'' means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way.
VI-a. "Inflatable tube'' means an inflatable device manufactured and designed for the specific purpose of towing persons behind a motorboat. Such device shall be manufactured with a point of attachment for a tow line in addition to any safety handles, ropes, or lines, for each person being towed.
VII. "Motorboat'' means any vessel being propelled by machinery, whether or not such machinery is the principal source of propulsion.
VIII. "No wake area'' means an area where a boat is to be operated only at headway speed.
IX. "PFD'' means a personal flotation device of a type approved by the United States Coast Guard.
X. "Person'' means person as defined in RSA 21:9.
XI. "Vessel'' means any type of watercraft used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water, except a seaplane.
XII. "Wake'' means any disturbance created on the surface of the water as a result of combined vessel motion and hull displacement.
XIII. "Water skiing'' means a person being towed behind a moving motorboat on skis or on aquatic equipment designed for towing an aquaplane or any other device, including bare feet of a person, but excluding a person being towed on an inflatable tube or in another boat or motorboat.
Source. 1990, 171:1. 1995, 273:2, eff. July 1, 1995. 2011, 224:268, eff. July 1, 2011. 2012, 168:2, 3, eff. June 7, 2012.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:33 AM   #13
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You are supposed to have some type of photo id with you. I make copies of our NH licenses (both car and boat) and keep them in all our water craft. I keep the originals in the house. While I have not been pulled over, my understanding is that copies are ok for the marine patrol. If you have a bigger issue, you may be asked to produce the originals.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:19 AM   #14
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Default Same thing off Weirs

Was stopped a few weeks ago for the very same thing. MP boat was sitting well outside the Weirs Beach NWZ. I was heading back to Alton Bay following two very large vessels well outside the 150' limit. They were making large wakes! I was third in line behind them an traveling about the same speed. I get stopped. Cursory check of safety equipment--I had it all. Turn over paperwork and 10 minutes later he comes back with a $68 ticket for going to fast within 150 ft of another boat--I assume his! No sense arguing. I had my boaters safety card but unfortunately left the boat registration in the car at Alton Bay. But that was not what the citation was for--so go figure!
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:27 AM   #15
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And, if I am out in my 15' aluminum rowing-canoe, rowing around Fl-3, and get stopped by the MP for being out after sunset without a white navigation light.....what happens if I have no identification, no registration, no boating license, no cell phone, and no money ..... because none are required.....am just wondering ..... once, about three summers ago, I actually got stopped for this violation without any ID and he let me slide with a friendly 'have a safe row home' ....maybe because I was actually wearing a 1965-style swimmers belt that doesn't get in the way for rowing, plus a whistle?
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
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And, if I am out in my 15' aluminum rowing-canoe, rowing around Fl-3, and get stopped by the MP for being out after sunset without a white navigation light.....what happens if I have no identification, no registration, no boating license, no cell phone, and no money ..... because none are required.....am just wondering ..... once, about three summers ago, I actually got stopped for this violation without any ID and he let me slide with a friendly 'have a safe row home' ....maybe because I was actually wearing a 1965-style swimmers belt that doesn't get in the way for rowing, plus a whistle?
They could attempt to pull up a drivers license photo but that's assuming they have computers on their boats with that capability. I've never seen computers on MP boats and always assumed they called things in for checks. They could also request that they follow you home to get said ID but realistically......have a safe row home and see ya later!
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Old 09-09-2015, 01:39 PM   #17
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They could attempt to pull up a drivers license photo but that's assuming they have computers on their boats with that capability. !
Pretty much all people have a computer known as a smart phone in their pocket today. I'm sure they carry phones. We all can pull up a drivers photo if that data base was accessible to us.
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Old 09-09-2015, 01:49 PM   #18
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Pretty much all people have a computer known as a smart phone in their pocket today. I'm sure they carry phones. We all can pull up a drivers photo if that data base was accessible to us.
Yes, many people do these days and I'm sure they carry phones. (no need for snark, if you intended it)

Maybe NH has something like this https://cjleads.nc.gov/. It's a great tool. It's checks just about everything except NCIC stolen records.
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Old 09-10-2015, 08:38 AM   #19
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NH DMV also has had alphabetical look up capability for decades. I'm sure the police can also see your photo there as well and further verify it by any other info they have asked you for.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:06 AM   #20
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Some times the wave action from the wind is way bigger than a boat wake at headway speed.....guess that leaves minimum wake to the beholder.
We had one older guy at the mouth of our bay who would spend every weekend day sitting by his dock with binoculars yelling at boats and making multiple calls to MP. Anything beyond a ripple would set him off. It was actually pretty funny to watch him because a south wind would produce 1'-2' swells and he'd still be yelling.
Last year he sold out and a much nicer family is there now so I guess the fun is over.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:38 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIKSUKR View Post
Pretty much all people have a computer known as a smart phone in their pocket today. I'm sure they carry phones. We all can pull up a drivers photo if that data base was accessible to us.
Some of us still rely on payphones ..... u-know, if you ask around for a payphone....there's always, always, always....someone who will volunteer the use of their cell phone ..... so's at least the ten-cent payphone is still here in spirit form?
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Old 09-10-2015, 01:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Yes, many people do these days and I'm sure they carry phones. (no need for snark, if you intended it)

Maybe NH has something like this https://cjleads.nc.gov/. It's a great tool. It's checks just about everything except NCIC stolen records.
No snarky at all HW. You posted this and I was just responding.

"I've never seen computers on MP boats and always assumed they called things in for checks"

A smart phone is certainly a computer and probably more powerful than most of our pc's 10 years ago. Thats all.
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:17 PM   #23
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Does MP have SCMODS? (pulled over 9 yrs ago. 150ft infraction. Safety check and sent on my way with a warning)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjJTAHOxXE
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:37 PM   #24
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No snarky at all HW. You posted this and I was just responding.

"I've never seen computers on MP boats and always assumed they called things in for checks"

A smart phone is certainly a computer and probably more powerful than most of our pc's 10 years ago. Thats all.
Gotcha and you're probably right on that!
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:36 PM   #25
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Default Checks in the field....

Just as with driving a motor vehicle, when you operate the appropriate classed vessel you must carry your boater certificate (quasi license) with you. If you don't have it you can be issued a citation. But if you produce it within 48 hours your citation is null and void.

There is no statute that requires you to carry a photo ID. However, having one readily available can make the stop much quicker if the officer has a reliable way to identify you.

When they pull away they have two main ways to run your status and, in many cases, see if you are wanted. When in radio range they can call it in, or in many cases where coverage is spotty, they simply call dispatch via cell.

There are a variety of ways to try and identify you whether via social security number, height, weight, hair and eye color and age by having dispatch check the appropriate data bases. The ability to transmit license data with photo is still in experimental stages here in NH. However an officer with a broadband connected laptop and the appropriate CAD (law enforcement software) can directly query the State Police data base for license, registration and wanted/warrant status.
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:44 PM   #26
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I find it very interesting that the MP asked for license, photo id and registration.... Even though I respect the MP and glad they're on the lake to maintain order, I think sometimes they overstep their authority.

Now that they fall under the department of the NH State Police,
I would have serious concerns with MP officer carrying firearms.

Funny.... They don't ask for any of that infomation when you go to vote !

But that's a conversation for another forum Thread !
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:02 PM   #27
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They had full kit on.
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Old 09-11-2015, 05:50 AM   #28
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Before the MP was absorbed into the SP, there were several incidences where the officer was overwhelmed by the people on the boat.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:56 AM   #29
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They had full kit on.
A number of officers within the Marine Patrol have been armed for years. They are authorized to be armed if they carry the appropriate firearms qualifications. Has nothing to do with the administrative transfer to State Police.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:14 AM   #30
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Now that they fall under the department of the NH State Police,
I would have serious concerns with MP officer carrying firearms.
What are your concerns with a police officer like MP carrying firearms?

I would have serious concerns about them NOT carrying firearms or any law enforcement officer for that matter. At any time they could come across the wrong person or be called to help other agencies locate a suspect or wanted person.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:26 AM   #31
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When a MP officer stops you on the water, they will ask for your drivers license in addition to your registration and boating certificate. Because your boating certificate does not have your picture on it, they are just verifying that the certificate belongs to you.

Unsafe passage, not maintaining a proper speed or distance while operating a vessel, is the most common violation boaters are stopped for on inland waters in NH.

It is not an easy task to determine when operating within 150' of other vessels, docks, swim areas, etc. and need to maintain headway speed.

150' is half the length of a football field
150' is twice the length of a standard tow rope.
If you can read the bow numbers clearly on the other vessel, you are within 150' of that vessel.

It is also difficult to determine if you are doing headway speed. Most speedometers on boats do not accurately read slower speeds.

On I/O and outboard powered vessels and under normal conditions headway speed can be accomplished with the gearshift one notch out of neutral and no additional throttle applied.
Your vessel should maintain itself in the displacement mode (no bow lift).
You should not see any wake behind your vessel.
It is impossible to pass another vessel going in the same direction if you are both doing headway speed.

For many, headway speed is agonizingly slow and have a tendency to give it a “little” more throttle. Though you may still be doing 6 MPH, the bow rises up causing a bigger wake. This is a flag to the MP officer that you are exceeding headway speed.

Remember if you are towing someone behind your vessel, the person being towed is considered part of your vessel and must follow the same rules.

The key phrase in the definition of headway speed is “the slowest speed at which it is still possible to maintain steering”. You may have to adjust the throttle to compensate for current, wind, or the wake of other boats. Try to avoid crossing the wake of another vessel unless you are at least 150' from that vessel.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:26 AM   #32
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What are your concerns with a police officer like MP carrying firearms?

I would have serious concerns about them NOT carrying firearms or any law enforcement officer for that matter. At any time they could come across the wrong person or be called to help other agencies locate a suspect or wanted person.

Has never crossed my mind to be concerned with police, Marine patrol, fish/ game wardens, or any of the other people we as tax payers actually pay to carry firearms carrying firearms.

One example could be marine patrol seeing an injured bear or moose on the edge of the lake and calling fish and game ( thread a few weeks ago saw one), the game warden walks up on an injured bear.

In his shoes you think you'd be more comfortable in that situation with a stick and rocks or your service weapon?

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Old 09-11-2015, 12:55 PM   #33
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Default ummm....

Knomad...

Your interpretation is a little off... consult a lawyer or you can ask the MP. When I did (both) this was what I was told.

270-D:1 Definitions
VI. "Headway speed'' means 6 miles per hour or the slowest speed that a boat can be operated and maintain steerage way

The interpretation of the law is that you are allowed up to 6 MPH, if you are above 6 MPH you must be able to demonstrate that you need the extra speed to maintain steerage. (Spring current in the Weirs Channel for example)

The reasoning is that different boats need different speeds to maintain steerage, but it is essentially universally recognized that 6 MPH works in 99% of cases. Most people think that No Wake Speed = DEAD SLOW and it does not.

There is no such thing as no wake... any boat moving forward displacing water will create a wake of some sort. The height of the wake is certainly debatable.

Here is an easy explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake

I apologize, but as an engineer, the term No Wake really bugs me as it is physically impossible for a boat.

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Old 09-11-2015, 06:59 PM   #34
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I see plenty of boats who are obeying the law who don't even show a ripple of a wave when they go through a no wake zone. You just don't want to believe it, Woodsy.
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Old 09-13-2015, 05:26 PM   #35
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Check out the steam boats in Lee's Mills this week. Full speed ahead, pass each other, etc . And all in a NWZ (within 150' of each other). You don't have to go fats to have fun on the water.,
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Old 09-13-2015, 07:09 PM   #36
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Why does anyone care if the boat makes a little wake at <6 MPH? A cannonball "dive" will disturb the water more than most boats at that speed.
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Old 09-14-2015, 09:19 AM   #37
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Why does anyone care if the boat makes a little wake at <6 MPH? A cannonball "dive" will disturb the water more than most boats at that speed.
Thanks for asking this Dave R. I've always wondered this too. Why do people get so bent out of shape about this? My philosophy is to get mooring whips, a lift, and or fenders and call it a day...
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Old 09-14-2015, 09:38 AM   #38
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Just for the record... a human cannonball has A LOT less energy than a boat wake... it all has to do with displacement. A 5000lb boat displaces way more water with a lot more energy...

Thant being said, I do believe boaters should be courteous and polite. I just think that a NWZ is mislabeled. It should read Headway speed - 6 MPH.

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Old 09-14-2015, 10:07 AM   #39
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Why does anyone care if the boat makes a little wake at <6 MPH?
Because some people need better hobbies. I would think that dedicating your life to yelling at strangers having fun would not be very fulfilling, yet it seems to be a vibrant local pastime among many.
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Old 09-14-2015, 10:25 AM   #40
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Actually, I love it when someone throws up a wake going by my place.....helps clean the beach and shore and I've got mooring whips.
We used to be able to teach our kids to ski right off the dock until a few activists got together and had our bay declared no wake. Many of us were away or just not paying attention.
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Old 09-15-2015, 09:00 AM   #41
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Default wakeboard boats at 6 MPH

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Why does anyone care if the boat makes a little wake at <6 MPH? A cannonball "dive" will disturb the water more than most boats at that speed.
I have recently, and unfortunately, have had a wakeboard boat going back and forth in front of my camp doing the "surf" thing. They are going pretty damn close to 6 MPH and are throwing up a tremendous wake that causes havoc when it hits shore. These waves toss my 22' boat around like a cork. My point is, 6 MPH does not necessarily equate to a small wake.
Also, here's a way to pass through the weirs channel during the spring flow at about 6 MPH (relative to the land and as observed via GPS). Say the water is flowing through the channel at 10 MPH. Approach the channel and as you get into the current, reverse direction, facing into the current. Maintain headway speed of 4 MPH or so relative to the water into the current while actually going backwards through the channel at 6 MPH relative to the land and GPS readings. Just be careful of the boats passing you doing 16 MPH relative to the land and GPS.
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Old 09-15-2015, 09:32 AM   #42
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I have recently, and unfortunately, have had a wakeboard boat going back and forth in front of my camp doing the "surf" thing. They are going pretty damn close to 6 MPH and are throwing up a tremendous wake that causes havoc when it hits shore. These waves toss my 22' boat around like a cork. My point is, 6 MPH does not necessarily equate to a small wake.
Also, here's a way to pass through the weirs channel during the spring flow at about 6 MPH (relative to the land and as observed via GPS). Say the water is flowing through the channel at 10 MPH. Approach the channel and as you get into the current, reverse direction, facing into the current. Maintain headway speed of 4 MPH or so relative to the water into the current while actually going backwards through the channel at 6 MPH relative to the land and GPS readings. Just be careful of the boats passing you doing 16 MPH relative to the land and GPS.
On the worst day the current in the weirs never exceeds 2 or 3 mph, in fact I don't think it exceeds 2 myself. You don't need to change your speed at all to maintain headway, either way, in that current.
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Old 09-15-2015, 09:44 AM   #43
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ITD...

During the spring runoff, with the dam wide open the current in the Weirs channel under the bridge where it necks down (narrowest point) is easily 5-6 knots! The current is moving at such a speed as to cause white caps.

I think the normal current in the channel is 1-1.5 knots depending on the dam outflow.

Of course you have to change your speed to overcome the current... If you are in a 2 knot current you need a minimum of 3 knots to maintain forward motion...

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Old 09-15-2015, 01:18 PM   #44
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I have recently, and unfortunately, have had a wakeboard boat going back and forth in front of my camp doing the "surf" thing. They are going pretty damn close to 6 MPH and are throwing up a tremendous wake that causes havoc when it hits shore. These waves toss my 22' boat around like a cork. My point is, 6 MPH does not necessarily equate to a small wake.
Wake surfing is done around 9-11 MPH. That will make a giant wake (pretty much the biggest possible wake for the boat, which is the point...). 6 MPH won't make nearly enough wake to surf on any boat.
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Old 09-15-2015, 02:07 PM   #45
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Not sure if you all realize but most Ski/Wake board type inboards have a "skeg" that they can drop beneath the stern of the boat (below the swim platform). Which when engaged runs across the width of the boat stern and enhances the size of the wake. Also, some are equipped with fillable/drainable water bladders to add weight to the stern area further enhancing the wake.


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Old 09-15-2015, 04:25 PM   #46
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Not sure if you all realize but most Ski/Wake board type inboards have a "skeg" that they can drop beneath the stern of the boat (below the swim platform). Which when engaged runs across the width of the boat stern and enhances the size of the wake. Also, some are equipped with fillable/drainable water bladders to add weight to the stern area further enhancing the wake.


.
I own a wakesurf boat and use it daily so I'll chime in.. Seeing as majority of wake specific boats are V drive I can realistically cruise through a no wake zone at 9mph causing no wake to complain about, for me 1 click past neutral is 6mph.

Surfing is performed between 9.5-12mph depending on boat. Most boats (good surf boats at least) will have ballast bags that you fill with water in order to list the boat. Newer boats use trim tabs or "surf systems" to avoid listing the boat. Also if your in shallow water your doing it wrong. These boats need 10 feet of water or deeper so there is no turbulence between the bottom of the lake and the wake. This will essentially wash out your wave and piss off the neighbors.

From a surfers opinion you have a better wave listed, both ways will create the same disturbance for boats in the area. People who drive circles surfing or wakeboarding should be hung by their ankles and forced to watch how it's really done.

Correct way to surf is to pick a destination on the horizon and go as straight as possible for multiple reasons. First this keeps the wave the same for the surfer, turn towards them the wave will shrink and suck them towards the boat, turn away from them it'll push the rider outside of the boats ideal wave. Secondly this way the waves hit the shoreline and are finished, they do not converge in the middle of the lake creating a rough lake.

This method is exactly why as much as people complain a wakeboard or wakesurf competition can run 200 passes a day and keep the lake calm for each rider.

I'd expect to see more surf boats over the coming years. Realistically it's the new tubing. Seeing guys who haven't put on a pair of water skis in over a decade because they are self proclaimed too old or too beat up and watching them pick up surfing in a few hours revitalizes their drive to be active behind the boat again.

I too get frustrated with surfers going by my house in fear of my boat however a pair of mooring whips and my 6,000 lb boat has never touched the dock. As far as soil erosion and stuff, work Google. States like Utah/Arizona/ Texas have been all over that subject for years to monitor their environment.

If anyone ever finds them selves on Winnisquam and wants to give it a shot next season let me know. Always interested in sharing a great sport with newcomers.
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Old 09-15-2015, 05:30 PM   #47
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ITD...

During the spring runoff, with the dam wide open the current in the Weirs channel under the bridge where it necks down (narrowest point) is easily 5-6 knots! The current is moving at such a speed as to cause white caps.

I think the normal current in the channel is 1-1.5 knots depending on the dam outflow.

Of course you have to change your speed to overcome the current... If you are in a 2 knot current you need a minimum of 3 knots to maintain forward motion...

Woodsy
6 knots is 6.9 mph..... no way. My boat idles at about 4 or 5 mph and with the dam wide open I have never had any problem making 3+ mph against the current in that channel. AND you don't have to change your speed, you just go slower relative to the land.
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Old 09-15-2015, 05:50 PM   #48
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ITD... I respectfully disagree
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Old 09-15-2015, 06:19 PM   #49
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ITD... I respectfully disagree
You and will have to meet on our jet skis next spring, when the dam is wide open and do some tests. I'll bring a hand held gps and buy you a beer at the naswa after so we can tabulate data.
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Old 09-15-2015, 07:44 PM   #50
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Sounds like a plan!



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Old 09-16-2015, 08:19 AM   #51
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Are you two referring to different data?

When the law says 6 mph, isn't it speaking of the speed over water, not speed over ground?

Since boats operate in water I would think that headway speed has no reference to speed over ground, because current could in fact affect the speed as measured over ground.

So I would think a radar gun is more useful to measure speed over water than a GPS which without knowledge of the current measures speed over ground.

I have a sport type radar gun if you want to borrow it for your test.
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Old 09-16-2015, 09:30 AM   #52
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Radar isn't going to give you a different reading than GPS. If you want to measure the flow through the channel you will need to somehow float through the channel and take a GPS reading (I don't think they have a flow meter). With this you can then calculate what your effective speed would be without current.
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Old 09-16-2015, 10:55 AM   #53
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Radar isn't going to give you a different reading than GPS. If you want to measure the flow through the channel you will need to somehow float through the channel and take a GPS reading (I don't think they have a flow meter). With this you can then calculate what your effective speed would be without current.
Agreed. They will show the same speed, as long as the radar is used correctly. The NH "headway speed" definition does not indicate if the 6 MPH is relative to the water or the ground, so the law is ambiguous. That said, maintaining 6 MPH over ground against a 3 MPH current would generate a massive wake (9 MPH over water) and I am certain that a ticket would result if caught. I am also confident that the ticket would stand in district court, but might fail on appeal, depends on how the appellate judge interprets the headway speed definition. If I were the judge, I would tie the headway speed definition to the obvious essence of, and reason for, the no wake law and the appeal would fail.
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Old 09-16-2015, 11:19 AM   #54
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If I were the judge, I would tie the headway speed definition to the obvious essence of, and reason for, the no wake law and the appeal would fail.
If you can prove you are unable to maintain control with a lesser speed through the current then I disagree, otherwise the appeal should fail per your logic.

BTW: this comes up every year. I just find it amusing.
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Old 09-16-2015, 11:35 AM   #55
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DaveR...

The MP wouldn't even ticket you... the key wording in the law here is "maintain steerage". This is the caveat that allows the operator to exceed the 6MPH stated in the RSA. So, if you have to go 9 MPH to over come a 3 MPH current, yes there would be a wake, your ground speed would be 6 MPH, BUT.. you are REQUIRED to maintain steerage and thus control of your vessel so a large wake @ 9 MPH could be easily justified... You see it all the time in the spring channel, MP & pleasure boats alike.

Now that was going against a current... But how about going with? I have seen boats turned sideways by the spring current in the Weirs Channel. Going with the strong spring current your groundspeed would be 9-10 MPH easy...

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Old 09-16-2015, 11:48 AM   #56
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Default Ground speed/air speed

If you run your boat at idle,(or any other set RPM) through the channel, in both directions, with your GPS functioning properly,then add the two speeds together and divide by two, you will have your hull speed over ground without any current. Subtract your calculated hull ground speed at set RPM, from your speed running with the current, and you will have the speed of the current in the channel. I have done this a few times and the speed varies within the chanel. It is determined by not only the width of the channel, by by the depth of the water.

Last edited by Broken Glass; 09-16-2015 at 12:08 PM. Reason: I left out half of the equation!
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Old 09-16-2015, 12:10 PM   #57
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DaveR...

The MP wouldn't even ticket you... the key wording in the law here is "maintain steerage". This is the caveat that allows the operator to exceed the 6MPH stated in the RSA. So, if you have to go 9 MPH to over come a 3 MPH current, yes there would be a wake, your ground speed would be 6 MPH, BUT.. you are REQUIRED to maintain steerage and thus control of your vessel so a large wake @ 9 MPH could be easily justified... You see it all the time in the spring channel, MP & pleasure boats alike.

Now that was going against a current... But how about going with? I have seen boats turned sideways by the spring current in the Weirs Channel. Going with the strong spring current your groundspeed would be 9-10 MPH easy...

Woodsy

If you are going against a 3 MPH current, you can maintain steerage at a much lower speed over ground than you can over slack water. My boat would maintain steerage at 0 MPH over ground if the current was 3.8 MPH (my speed over slack water at idle).
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Old 09-16-2015, 04:02 PM   #58
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My point about the radar, was not to be standing on the non-moving ground while taking the reading, of course that would provide the same speed as the GPS.

The problem would be to be on a platform (such as a boat) that was moving with the current. Of course, that speed would be variable, due to the influences of many different factors.

But as always, this is always confusing and will always be debated to the n-degree!

But if anyone would like to play with my radar gun, let me know.
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Old 09-16-2015, 04:03 PM   #59
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Dave R...

You misinterpret the my point & the RSA... you cannot go FASTER than 6 MPH, unless you can demonstrate that conditions or that your vessel requires it.. Donzi 22 Blackhawk comes to mind. Mine idled at 8 MPH

However...

There is no requirement for you to go SLOWER than 6 MPH at any point in time.

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Old 09-16-2015, 04:23 PM   #60
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Dave R...

You misinterpret the my point & the RSA... you cannot go FASTER than 6 MPH, unless you can demonstrate that conditions or that your vessel requires it.. Donzi 22 Blackhawk comes to mind. Mine idled at 8 MPH

However...

There is no requirement for you to go SLOWER than 6 MPH at any point in time.

Woodsy
I am not sure a boat idling at 8MPH allows you to exceed "Headway" speed. You could still go in and out of gear, maintain control, and stay under 6MPH.

If for some reason the hull design did not allow for steerage below 6MPH you may have an argument.
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Old 09-16-2015, 05:45 PM   #61
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I am not sure a boat idling at 8MPH allows you to exceed "Headway" speed. You could still go in and out of gear, maintain control, and stay under 6MPH.
6 or 7 years ago I was stopped by MP in the weirs channel and told that a vehicle's idle speed is no excuse to make a wake and that some boats need to use the shifter in order to prevent throwing a wake. Just a warning and not really an unpleasant experience.
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Old 09-16-2015, 05:53 PM   #62
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Default Bass Boats

There was a tournament today. HQ was at PBM. At idle speed on my boat is 7 mph. Even at that speed my boat wanders left and right, so I had to make constant adjustments. The bass boats or passing me through the channel and surprisingly only making a ripple. Marine patrol was in the channel and allowing thus behavior. My guess is the MP is more concerned about the wake than headway speed of 6 mph?

As I was traveling through Paugus some of those bass boats were screaming! Lots of PWCs at Paugus end of the channel having fun! One actually cross my wake within 50 feet of my stern!

Not sure what happen, a patrol boat with lights on went through the Weirs Channel at planning speed toward Paugus Bay. Chatter on the radio was very confusing, something about a woman place in the ambulance near the information booth on Weirs Boulevard.
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Old 09-16-2015, 06:53 PM   #63
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I was wondering what was going on, There were bass boats flying around all over. The only stupid move all day though was a premier pontoon with dual 300's went by about 30 or 40' away at around 40mph passing to port. Were both lucky I was paying attention.
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Old 09-16-2015, 07:25 PM   #64
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Default Cannot appeal a violation

Just a point of clarification. A summons for wake/headway speed is a violation. You can have a hearing before a district/circuit court judge, but that court's decision is final, you cannot appeal the verdict.

It has been a number of years now where the State court system ended appeals of violation level offenses.
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Old 09-17-2015, 08:26 AM   #65
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http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...3-bass-fishing

And every boaters fear, a PWC making a U-turn in front of your craft!


http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...eets-bass-boat
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Old 09-17-2015, 11:26 AM   #66
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http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...3-bass-fishing

And every boaters fear, a PWC making a U-turn in front of your craft!


http://www.laconiadailysun.com/index...eets-bass-boat
Yesterday two PWC's cut myself and another boater off. I was also out on my PWC. As I have stated before: when out boating one must always drive defensively. Many boaters just do not pay any attention to anything or anyone around them. It can be very dangerous out on the lake. I am surprised that there aren't more boating accidents.
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