Mercruiser V6 seized from Rodent Damange

bkgoodman · 07-29-2011, 11:00 AM

I have a Mercruiser V6 4.3LX / 262 which has been in storage for a whopping nine years.

It has received periodic maintenance, starting, fluids, even a carb and starter rebuild.

This year when "my guy" went to start it, it wouldn't budge. He pulled the engine and took the head off. A rodent had nested in one of the cylinders (which was int he "down" position). It is rusted to the point where it won't move.

The block is in good shape. The outdrive was just rebuilt and is good. The starter, carburetor - everything is in pretty good shape (as far as I can tell) except for this.

He wants to charge me a fortune for a new long block, (or really sell me an old V8 he's had laying around in his shop forever).

Right now it's in pieces. The boat is on blocks, I don't own a trailer or a vehicle that could tow it. (It's in the Nashua area).

I guess I could go get the engine from him. (Would I need a hoist to lift it in/out of my vehicle? Should I get an engine stand?)

I was planning on putting in this water this season - but that didn't work out. I'd really like to get it ready and to the lake for next season.

Any ideas what to do?!?

NoBozo · 07-29-2011, 12:21 PM

I'm having a hard time envisioning HOW a rodent got into one of the cylinders..and Why HE (the rodent) would want to get into a cylinder. The only way IN or OUT of the combustion chamber is through the valves.

NB

bkgoodman · 07-29-2011, 01:09 PM

Yes, (as it was described to me) - he got in through one of the valves that was in the open position.

TOAD · 07-29-2011, 01:10 PM

Were the spark plugs left out? That might be a point of entry. Other than that there is no easy direct route to get into one of the cylinders.

NoBozo · 07-29-2011, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

Yes, (as it was described to me) - he got in through one of the valves that was in the open position.

Since the technician has the cylinder head OFF the engine, maybe you could ask him/her to show you which valve the Renegade Rodent entered. All he/she has to do is turn the head upside down to show you the "open" valve.

NB

bkgoodman · 07-29-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

Since the technician has the cylinder head OFF the engine, maybe you could ask him/her to show you which valve the Renegade Rodent entered. All he/she has to do is turn the head upside down to show you the "open" valve.

NB

Excellent, excellent point!!!

If it's the exhaust, that's a long way to climb. If it's the intake, it means the air filter and throttle were open, and the cover was off.

It would be interesting to see if the plugs, and which of them were out of the head.

I specifically *DO* remember seeing that the engine cover was off the last time I saw it. I don't remember if the air filter was on or not.

But I get your point - if crankshaft is immobilized, it will be black-and-white what the valve positions were - because there is no way they could have changed from then to now!

Thanks again!

-BKG

VitaBene · 07-29-2011, 02:10 PM

Regarding using a v8, remember the outdrive gear ratios are different for 4, 6, and 8 cylinder engines on alpha drives.

lawn psycho · 07-29-2011, 02:25 PM

Too bad he tok it apart. A trick is to squirt marvel mystery oil into the cylinder and let it soak and soak and soak. It really does wonders some times. Then you vacuum it out and crank her over.

Now you need the piston to be below top dead center (tdc) but you could still try and it and use a breaker bar on the crank to turn it.

MMO was made for this kind of thing and is worth the $5 it will cost for it. Soak it for 24 hour or longer.

bkgoodman · 07-29-2011, 02:50 PM

Yes, that's what a lot of people are saying. The cylinder is near the bottom, so it can hold the oil, and shouldn't have too much to move before it breaks free.

I just gotta get the block back from him.

Thanks for the advise!

-BKG

NoBozo · 07-29-2011, 02:57 PM

I think I overlooked something. If the head is OFF an engine, with "overhead valves," the pushrods would have been removed first.. therefore ALL the valves would be closed (head OFF) because the cam is not holding certain valves open.

NB

I still think the Renegade Rodent never got into a cylinder in the first place.

donnamatrix · 07-29-2011, 03:02 PM

Wow... reading this post, y'all should open up a marine mechanic shop. I can barely understand this conversation, except there was (perhaps) a rodent!

bkgoodman · 07-29-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

I think I overlooked something. If the head is OFF an engine, with "overhead valves," the pushrods would have been removed first.. therefore ALL the valves would be closed (head OFF) because the cam is not holding certain valves open. NB

Ah...correct, but we could probably devise what the valve positions must have been based on the current crankshaft position - which couldn't have moved - because it is seized.

There may have been pieces of acorns in there too - I can't remember if I saw them or heard about them - or if they were large enough to have gotten in through the spark plug hole..

NoBozo · 07-29-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donnamatrix

Wow... reading this post, y'all should open up a marine mechanic shop. I can barely understand this conversation, except there was (perhaps) a rodent!

Thanks DM: We are probably not as smart as you give us credit for. We probably know more than the person in the street...BUT when we go to our friendly repair facility ..Auto or Marine......We usually CAVE. It's the easy way .

As long as you are not willing to pick up the tools and do it yourself..We are at the mercy of the SHOP...they know this: We don't feel like, or don't have the tools, time, knowledge, or incentive to do the job ourselves. SO: We say OK...Do it.....and we justify it by telling ourselves......at least it will be done ...

When it comes to repairin something....THIS is Absolute:.."It's in the Knowin...not the Doin." Almost anyone can do the work...but you have to know HOW.

NB

MarkinNH · 07-29-2011, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lawn psycho

A trick is to squirt marvel mystery oil into the cylinder and let it soak and soak and soak.

Great stuff. When I was a boy my dad had a passion for old tractors. He unseized quite a few engines using the very method you described.

bkgoodman · 07-30-2011, 11:03 AM

"My Guy" in the paper the other day...

Skip’s Marine in dire straits following lawsuit - "Skip’s Marine in dire straits following lawsuit"

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/nashu...g-lawsuit.html

Dave R · 07-31-2011, 01:23 PM

My advice is to go get everything and bring it home. Buy a book about rebuilding Chevy V6 or small block V8 engines (the 4.3 V6 is a 350 V8 with two missing cylinders) and rebuild the short block. It's not hard to do and the parts (pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets and seals), and machine work are very inexpensive. I'd be happy to lend you an engine stand and some of the specialized tools. I don't use them very often.

bkgoodman · 07-31-2011, 05:19 PM

Thanks, Dave, I may have to take you up on that!

I did just buy and engine stand today, and I believe there are some auto repair shops that lend our hoists. I think moving the engine around is going to be the hard part.

I don't know what kind of "specialized" tools I may need - I rebuilt an engine on my Cressida once, and I had to borrow some whacky thing to lift the valves once from some stranger on the 'net!

I dug out the service manual - which I bought many years ago when I rebuilt the carburetor. I think I am going to take your approach. I'm going to borrow a hoist and a pickup and get the engine this week. I'll let is sit with MMO or PB blaster for a couple weeks while I'm on vacation, and see how it does when I come back.

Also - I talk to my "mechanic" - yesterday, who said something about me buying his V8 - and him putting my V6 in someone elses boat. (Wait, I thought you said it was unsalvageable!?) He was obviously willing to give me nothing back for my engine - even though he was going to put it in someone else's boat.

He did also mention a good machine shop down the road - and I have been reading on some options with respect to honing or reboring the cylinder.

I'm starting to believe this thing is not-so-unusable after all...

Thanks for the help!

-BKG

lawn psycho · 07-31-2011, 05:41 PM

Well is looks you have already have some motor savvy. Given you still have a stuck piston (or frozen crank) you have a block of unknown condition.

Before going into the whole rebuild route I would exhaust every root possible to get the crank to turn. If you bust something you haven't lost anything at this point. Get a breaker bar on the crank pulley bolt and turn it like a Mo-Fo. If you soak it long enough you might get somewhere. Another thought is to overfill the crank case with some marvel mystery oil to soal the crank and bearings in case that is you issue.

I am not one to discourage DIY but a motor swap is a whole lot easier than a rebuild. Most likely cheaper too. Getting the heads right with proper valve geometry is not forgiving for engine longevity if you get it wrong

I've rebuilt motors before but I had an engine guy set the valves, rockers, etc.

I'd be much more inclinded to buy a motor already rebuilt and plunk it in. Since you don't need the boat in a hurry it seems, then it could make for a fun project.

Sounds like it's time for you to start reading on the Mercruiser Forums for the nuances you will run up against. Call Marine Parts Express as they may have a rebuilt "kit" to help reduce parts chasing. Good luck.

Dave R · 07-31-2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

Thanks, Dave, I may have to take you up on that!

I did just buy and engine stand today, and I believe there are some auto repair shops that lend our hoists. I think moving the engine around is going to be the hard part.

I don't know what kind of "specialized" tools I may need - I rebuilt an engine on my Cressida once, and I had to borrow some whacky thing to lift the valves once from some stranger on the 'net!

I dug out the service manual - which I bought many years ago when I rebuilt the carburetor. I think I am going to take your approach. I'm going to borrow a hoist and a pickup and get the engine this week. I'll let is sit with MMO or PB blaster for a couple weeks while I'm on vacation, and see how it does when I come back.

Also - I talk to my "mechanic" - yesterday, who said something about me buying his V8 - and him putting my V6 in someone elses boat. (Wait, I thought you said it was unsalvageable!?) He was obviously willing to give me nothing back for my engine - even though he was going to put it in someone else's boat.

He did also mention a good machine shop down the road - and I have been reading on some options with respect to honing or reboring the cylinder.

I'm starting to believe this thing is not-so-unusable after all...

Thanks for the help!

-BKG

I have a valve spring compressor, piston ring tools, cylinder hone and stuff like that. Lemme know if you need it. You may just need a hone and new rings, that would be ideal. With luck, the valves will be in good shape and you can just lap them and install some new seals. That'll save some machine shop cost. Setting valve lash is really easy, no need to worry about stuff like that.

bkgoodman · 07-31-2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

I have a valve spring compressor, piston ring tools, cylinder hone and stuff like that. Lemme know if you need it. You may just need a hone and new rings, that would be ideal. With luck, the valves will be in good shape and you can just lap them and install some new seals. That'll save some machine shop cost. Setting valve lash is really easy, no need to worry about stuff like that.

Thanks a ton! Sounds like exactly the stuff I need. I figured a good honing may do the trick - but as long as I have everything in a billion pieces, it probably would hurt to do a good valve and ring job on this nearly 20 year old engine!

It was actually a valve spring compressor that someone once lent me working on my old car engine.

I'm in Nashua, don't know where you are - it will probably be at least a month or so before I've returned from vacation, broken the stuck piston free, and am ready to get into that level of detail. We should hook up via. Private Message.

Thanks again!

-BKG

P.S. Love your boat name!

Dave R · 08-01-2011, 08:07 AM

I got your PM and sent you an email. My advice is to inspect thoroughly and fix only what is necessary. Valves don't expire, so don't assume it'll need a valve job because it's 20 years old, they could be in perfect shape.

That said, there are some parts that just make sense to change while the engine is apart: Rubber bits, like valve seals, do dry out over time and they are very cheap and easy to change, so those should be done. Rings should be changed any time the pistons are removed. Bearings can be inspected and re-used, but they are usually really cheap, so I recommend putting in new ones during re-assembly. Crank seals should never be re-used.

You may want to investigate replacing your heads with Vortec heads and installing a roller cam. I think they are both bolt-on improvements that Mercruiser used in newer 4.3s that will give a nice HP and torque boost.

Dave R · 08-01-2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

P.S. Love your boat name!

Thanks

My wife and kids are big time Harry Potter fans (I'm not a big fan). They came up with it and I think it's a unique and interesting boat name regardless of its origin, so I am fine with it.

VitaBene · 08-02-2011, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

Thanks a ton! Sounds like exactly the stuff I need. I figured a good honing may do the trick - but as long as I have everything in a billion pieces, it probably would hurt to do a good valve and ring job on this nearly 20 year old engine!

It was actually a valve spring compressor that someone once lent me working on my old car engine.

I'm in Nashua, don't know where you are - it will probably be at least a month or so before I've returned from vacation, broken the stuck piston free, and am ready to get into that level of detail. We should hook up via. Private Message.

Thanks again!

-BKG

P.S. Love your boat name!

Fill those cylinders with marvel Mystery Oil before you go on vacation.

robmac · 08-02-2011, 11:02 AM

bkgoodman,I am in Nashua and have an engine crain if you need one. I agree with all the advice you've gotten,free up the frozen cylinder then inspect each cylinder for scoring and ridges. I have built alot of engines along with freeing up siezed ones (which I then drove ) and as stated prior if it's apart make sure you get a master engine set and replace all seals and gaskets timing chain and gears etc.. PS,not a fan of Skips or his former location.

bkgoodman · 08-02-2011, 11:26 AM

Robmac: Thanks!

I did buy a hoist last night, so I'm borrowing a friend's truck, and I should have the engine back to my place within a few days.

I knew I needed the gasket set - I didn't know/think about the timing chain and gears. I am going to do a ring job too (never did one - don't know what it entails).

Assuming I can get the engine to budge loose, I don't know if I should take it to a machine shop? Hone it? Have them do it? Have them lap the valve seats or whatever while it's apart? Do that myself?

I can't really judge the condition it's in. Maybe if you're in the area you could take a peek

-BKG

Woodsy · 08-02-2011, 12:02 PM

Not be a buzzkill here... BUT!!

http://nh.craigslist.org/boa/2521116656.html

I just randomly typed in v6 in the search box! I have rebuilt more than a few motors and my advice would be something like the above.... keep one boat or strip one for the parts you need for the other. For $1500 you get a running motor, spare outdrive, spare everything! How can you beat that??? Hell use this boat this year....

Rebuilding a motor is fairly straightforward if your meticulous and know what your doing. You could spend alot of $$$ on your rebuild, but if you screw up one little thing... you could trash the whole motor and essentially throw your money away.... There is a reason mechanics rarely rebuild motors in thier shops anymore.... the headache and potential hassles are not worth it.

With the motor out of the boat already and everything disconnected you might have an issue figuring out where all the wires & hoses connect. Also, dont forget you have to align the motor using an alignment tool before you put the outdrive back on. otherwise you will chew up your gimble bearing in about an hour of run time.

Woodsy

PS: If the boats been unused for 9 years you can bet the all the hoses and the waterpump in the outdrive need replacing!

lawn psycho · 08-02-2011, 01:49 PM

I totally agree with Woodsy.

If you were talking a show car and wanted original motor that's one thing but that's not the case here.

Someone posted about setting valve lash as easy. Yes, after you've done a bunch of them. The net is filled with guys screaming for help after rebuilding motors and not starting or breaking something and having a bunch of re-do work and expense.

By the time you track everything down you need you'll have wished you just bought a rebuilt motor. But, I also know people that enjoy the challenge so it comes down to how much time and energy you want to put into the project.

patman · 08-02-2011, 03:06 PM

What probably happened is that the rodent urine did the bulk of the damage.

If you want to go industrial strength, skip the marvel, and use CLR, household vinegar, Oxalic Acid, or molasses. Give it a good soak then try to turn it over. Beware though, these will clean it down to the bare metal, which means it'll flash rust in no time flat unless you get some oil or something on it to protect it.

Example from another site, 12 days in molasses.

Before...

...and after:

bkgoodman · 08-02-2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patman

What probably happened is that the rodent urine did the bulk of the damage.

If you want to go industrial strength, skip the marvel, and use CLR, household vinegar, Oxalic Acid, or molasses. Give it a good soak then try to turn it over. Beware though, these will clean it down to the bare metal, which means it'll flash rust in no time flat unless you get some oil or something on it to protect it.

Yes, I think it was the rodent urine. The head looks fine, just the top of the piston, and inside of one of the cylinders.

Just to be absolutely clear: I am to use only one of these, or a combination? How long should I soak it? Should I flush it out with oil afterwards? Will I damage the (good) metal if I leave it too long? Which one is best?

VitaBene · 08-02-2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patman

What probably happened is that the rodent urine did the bulk of the damage.

If you want to go industrial strength, skip the marvel, and use CLR, household vinegar, Oxalic Acid, or molasses. Give it a good soak then try to turn it over. Beware though, these will clean it down to the bare metal, which means it'll flash rust in no time flat unless you get some oil or something on it to protect it.

Example from another site, 12 days in molasses.

Before...

...and after:

Wow! I never heard of using molasses and I am kind of a gearhead.

To the OP, if you are doing a quicky motor job you need to make sure that all of the lower end (rods, caps etc) need to go back exactly as they came out. That means conn rod in the same cylinder, same cap in same direction because all of these components have already worn in together. If not you will put the entire thing back together, torque everything and it won't turn over.

bkgoodman · 08-02-2011, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

To the OP, if you are doing a quicky motor job you need to make sure that all of the lower end (rods, caps etc) need to go back exactly as they came out. That means conn rod in the same cylinder, same cap in same direction because all of these components have already worn in together. If not you will put the entire thing back together, torque everything and it won't turn over.

It's already been taken apart by my mechanic - and everything's just in a box. I'm not 100% on what parts exactly you are talking about.

The head is still in one piece - but off the block. I think the pushrods are all out and sitting in a pile. (What do you advise?)

The crank/pistons are still in-tact - lower unit is not open. By "cap" do you mean the thing on the other end of the connecting rods that go "round" the bearings and hold them in place? (I haven't done this in a while - and never inside the lower unit

)

brk-lnt · 08-02-2011, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

. (What do you advise?)

In all seriousness, write it off.

At this stage your odds of getting that motor back running correctly and reliably for under $1000 and 100 hours are pretty slim, and likely diminishing daily.

What you have on your hands is a "fun" hobby project for sometime who rebuilds marine motors regularly. IMO (having done a few strange projects automotive and marine in my time) I think you have a losing battle on your hands if the motor has been disassembled and pieces scattered by a person other than yourself.

NoBozo · 08-02-2011, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

In all seriousness, write it off.

At this stage your odds of getting that motor back running correctly and reliably for under $1000 and 100 hours are pretty slim, and likely diminishing daily.

What you have on your hands is a "fun" hobby project for sometime who rebuilds marine motors regularly. IMO (having done a few strange projects automotive and marine in my time) I think you have a losing battle on your hands if the motor has been disassembled and pieces scattered by a person other than yourself.

I CONCUR: I think Woodsy has an idea.

NB

VitaBene · 08-02-2011, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoBozo

I CONCUR: I think Woodsy has an idea.

NB

You can buy a long block from the place I used (linked earlier) for less than 1200. I also like woodsy's idea.

You will still need the engine stand, especially if you are transferring parts onto a rebuilt long block.

ApS · 08-03-2011, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

My advice is to go get everything and bring it home. Buy a book about rebuilding Chevy V6 or small block V8 engines (the 4.3 V6 is a 350 V8 with two missing cylinders) and rebuild the short block.

If the engine was disassembled in the boat, and the chances of getting it to turn over are good, why go to additional lengths like removing the engine?

We've gone from a simple solution—to a rebuild—which may be completely unnecessary.

patman · 08-03-2011, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

Yes, I think it was the rodent urine. The head looks fine, just the top of the piston, and inside of one of the cylinders.

Just to be absolutely clear: I am to use only one of these, or a combination? How long should I soak it? Should I flush it out with oil afterwards? Will I damage the (good) metal if I leave it too long? Which one is best?

Only one of those should be done. They all work at different speeds, and with different degrees of hazard. You definitely need to rinse it off afterwards, and yes, there is definitely a possibility of damaging good metal if you leave it too long. How much overshoot you have depends on how long the method takes to begin with.

Molasses - few days to a few weeks, not very caustic
Vinegar - a day to a couple of weeks, mildly caustic
Oxalic Acid (wood bleach) - minutes to hours, very caustic

But...as mentioned above...even assuming you have all the parts, and they're pristine and ready to go back together, are you up for the challenge?

Edit:
Here's some before/after of 12 days in vinegar (warning...language):

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...73&postcount=1
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...&postcount=179

bkgoodman · 08-03-2011, 08:07 PM

Okay - I got the engine in my garage. It actually looks very good in all. The head has that brownish-greyish color like it's spent it's life in oil, and is still well oiled with not even a trace of surface rust.

All the parts were there, all the rods, head bolts, etc were bagged up. It looked pretty complete.

Some surface rust on the rest of the engine - the water pump is bad, but I was going to replace that anyways. Everything else is not too shabby.

Then we get to the "offending cylinder"....

I gave it a quick scrub with a wire brush to get some of the really egregious rust dealt with, and vacuumed it out.

Do you think it's salvageable?

Larger Version

Larger Version

So right now, I have the engine sitting on its side at like a 45 degree angle, with the offending cylinder filled to the brim with vinegar. We'll see what that does in a few days.

Whataya think? Is it salvageable or am I scrod?

brk-lnt · 08-04-2011, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

Whataya think? Is it salvageable or am I scrod?

In theory, any engine is "salvageable". The question is, is it worth the time and money you need to put into it in order to make it run again?

I still think that this is more of a "if you have to ask you can't afford it" kind of scenario, where if you have to ask, you're *probably* in over your head. But, I don't know you personally. I do know a lot of people with halfway rebuilt engines in their garages though...

When you look at the link someone else posted, you can get a boat, engine, outdrive, etc. for $1500... It's hard to justify putting more than about $500-$700 into this rebuild. And, I think that by the time you're through with it, you'll have spent at least that much, and probably a helluva lot of time.

Woodsy · 08-04-2011, 08:27 AM

I don't know your situation...

I just dont see the point in wasting all that time and money (anywhere from $500 minimum to $$$ max) and still have a huge chance of failure, when for $1500 (just 1 example) to $2000 you can have a turn key replacement with lots of extra spare parts.

Judging by the pics.... even if you free up the cylinder the piston will probably need to be removed and the cylinder honed... looks like you have some serious pitting.

Woodsy

Dave R · 08-04-2011, 01:06 PM

That looks pretty bad. I would not count on getting it working with that bore. Looks to me like the head was removed and the engine was left exposed to weather for quite some time. There's rust in places that could only be caused by the head being left off, not "rodent" damage.

bkgoodman · 08-04-2011, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

That looks pretty bad. I would not count on getting it working with that bore. Looks to me like the head was removed and the engine was left exposed to weather for quite some time. There's rust in places that could only be caused by the head being left off, not "rodent" damage.

Eessh!

The head definitely wasn't off. (I'd seen it a few weeks prior). It is also just this ONE calendar which is bad. The rest are completely fine.

patman · 08-04-2011, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

I gave it a quick scrub with a wire brush to get some of the really egregious rust dealt with, and vacuumed it out.

[...]

So right now, I have the engine sitting on its side at like a 45 degree angle, with the offending cylinder filled to the brim with vinegar. We'll see what that does in a few days.

Whataya think? Is it salvageable or am I scrod?

Well, you're kind of at the 'what have you got to lose' stage there. It would be faster and simpler to get a donor engine and swap that in, but if you're up for a challenge, and willing to fail miserably as a distinct possibility, go for it.

To set expectations, the best case for this without going to the machine shop is an engine that runs, but smokes and burns oil a bit. The possibilities go downhill from there.

Careful with that wire brush, Eugene. Don't scar up things unnecessarily. Resist the temptation to go at it with anything more substantial than a plastic scraper. Maybe a brass bristle brush or a very VERY fine (read: worn out) Scotchbrite pad if you're careful, but work slowly.

Make sure you've got the whole cylinder filled, completely submerging it is best. You'll get a rust line where the top of the liquid meets the air. If/when the piston frees up, the vinegar will go somewhere...probably past the rings and into the bottom end. Make sure you can rinse everything down to stop the corrosive action of the vinegar, and also get some oil or something on afterwards to keep it from rusting again. If nothing else, wipe it all down with paper towels and then hose it down with WD-40.

This is really a caveman approach, but...it might just work.

bkgoodman · 08-05-2011, 08:41 PM

After 2 days in vinegar.

I tried to capture the texture of the cylendar wall here. It looks a lot better - but I don't know if it's good enough. Do you think it need a hone, or a rebore?

(Click an image for a larger view)

patman · 08-05-2011, 09:51 PM

A lot better, but...no, not good enough. Load 'er up again for another soak.

In theory, a hone would do it because you just need to clean it up, but remember that is taking material off of the cylinder walls. The bigger you make the hole (and that's relatively small amount, it could be .001") the sloppier the fit, and the worse the compression/burning oil problems will be. At some point it gets loose enough that an overbore is the only answer. Once you get to that stage, you've jumped up in cost, and you should overbore all 6 holes (probably .010" or .020"), buy pistons to fit the bigger holes, have the rotating assembly balanced, etc, etc.

If you want to roll the dice, soak it for another couple of days, and see what it looks like then. Maybe going over it gently with a fine grade scotchbrite periodically. The bore needs to be smooth enough to not catch your fingernail on anything.

Blue Thunder · 08-06-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave R

That looks pretty bad. I would not count on getting it working with that bore. Looks to me like the head was removed and the engine was left exposed to weather for quite some time. There's rust in places that could only be caused by the head being left off, not "rodent" damage.

Completely agree with Dave R. That cylinder had water in it for some period of time. Need to determine how and solve that problem too.

BT

bkgoodman · 08-06-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

Completely agree with Dave R. That cylinder had water in it for some period of time. Need to determine how and solve that problem too.

BT

It's been out of the water - for nine years! I think that when people are saying they don't think it was rodent damage, they're eluding more to something like my "mechanic" leaving the head off and boat uncovered - or something like that.

robmac · 08-07-2011, 07:00 AM

It sure looks prior to cleaning as though it ha alot of water in it for a long period of time. Didn't you write that they were starting it each year? Those are pretty tough engines and take abuse pretty well but I agree that without knowing where it came from and how it got into the affected cylinder you might be throwing $ down the drain if you have block or head damage. Were the plugs still in the head? Was the engine cover and carb breather cover off? Something is missing, is it your engine?

Blue Thunder · 08-07-2011, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

It's been out of the water - for nine years! I think that when people are saying they don't think it was rodent damage, they're eluding more to something like my "mechanic" leaving the head off and boat uncovered - or something like that.

I hear ya bkg, I'm just trying to help. If the head was left off, all of the cylinders would look like that. That damage/rust, IMO, is from either the intake or exhaust valve being open and water entering the cylinder somehow. On the intake side, the water would have to enter through the carb/intake manifold. On the exhaust side it would come from the exhaust riser which is cooled by lake water (unless you have a closed system). If one of the times over the 9 years the boat was stored you turned the engine over, if it was done by hand and you went the wrong way, the exhaust valve could've been open and you would suck the water/anti-freeze right out of the riser into the cylinder. This is even more plausible if the riser had a unknown crack in it.

BT

bkgoodman · 08-07-2011, 10:10 AM

It's not that I don't want to buy a block - it's the right way to go.

However, there's the block - the installation - hauling (I don't have a trailer - and the boat's in a boatyard in Merrimack), plus an additional $600 for some outdrive work - and of course marina fees for the summer.

It all is adding up pretty heavily!

Maybe if I sell a whole lot of my Winnipesaukee iPhone chart apps... ;-)

ITD · 08-08-2011, 02:29 PM

bk, don't forget there is another couple of inches of cylinder beyond that piston, I doubt the cleaning solution is working there.

VitaBene · 08-08-2011, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

It's not that I don't want to buy a block - it's the right way to go.

However, there's the block - the installation - hauling (I don't have a trailer - and the boat's in a boatyard in Merrimack), plus an additional $600 for some outdrive work - and of course marina fees for the summer.

It all is adding up pretty heavily!

Maybe if I sell a whole lot of my Winnipesaukee iPhone chart apps... ;-)

BKG, Given this info- Woodsy's suggestion makes more sense than ever.

MarkinNH · 08-08-2011, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

BKG, Given this info- Woodsy's suggestion makes more sense than ever.

Yup, I am seeing an awful lot of boats showing up in yards and parking lots with "For Sale" signs on them in the last couple of weeks. With the state of the economy and the season winding down there are probably some good deals to be had. Might be cheaper and easier in the long run to just right this one off and start fresh with another boat.

Winnipesaukee · 08-17-2011, 09:07 PM

I think if do you manage to salvage it that cylinder will be low on compression. That looked like a good deal of rust you took off there.

I've never seen that before but have a hard time believing that a rodent got all the way into a cylinder. Would a leaking head gasket let something like that happen?

bkgoodman · 08-17-2011, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

Would a leaking head gasket let something like that happen?

It's been in storage a LONG time - so I don't think it was a head gasket leak - it was something much more recent.

Blue Thunder · 08-18-2011, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkgoodman

It's been in storage a LONG time - so I don't think it was a head gasket leak - it was something much more recent.

So where are you at with it at this point?

BT

bkgoodman · 08-18-2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

So where are you at with it at this point?

BT

I'm away on vacation - so it's sitting in my garage, with the cylinder filled with MMO. I'm going to see if I can break her loose when I get home on Sat.

bkgoodman · 08-20-2011, 05:52 PM

Someone posted a link to a place in Maine that sold long blocks (for my engine) for $999.

I can't find the link anywhere. Does anyone know the place? Or another? Places I've been finding on the web are MUCH more expensive!

Woodsy · 08-22-2011, 08:58 AM

try doing a search for Doug Russell Marine... they are in MA and they wholesale Merc stuff pretty cheap. You might also want to try my idea from above... I think your gonna need all the spare parts!

Woodsy

07-29-2011, 11:00 AM	#1
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	Mercruiser V6 seized from Rodent Damange I have a Mercruiser V6 4.3LX / 262 which has been in storage for a whopping nine years. It has received periodic maintenance, starting, fluids, even a carb and starter rebuild. This year when "my guy" went to start it, it wouldn't budge. He pulled the engine and took the head off. A rodent had nested in one of the cylinders (which was int he "down" position). It is rusted to the point where it won't move. The block is in good shape. The outdrive was just rebuilt and is good. The starter, carburetor - everything is in pretty good shape (as far as I can tell) except for this. He wants to charge me a fortune for a new long block, (or really sell me an old V8 he's had laying around in his shop forever). Right now it's in pieces. The boat is on blocks, I don't own a trailer or a vehicle that could tow it. (It's in the Nashua area). I guess I could go get the engine from him. (Would I need a hoist to lift it in/out of my vehicle? Should I get an engine stand?) I was planning on putting in this water this season - but that didn't work out. I'd really like to get it ready and to the lake for next season. Any ideas what to do?!?

07-29-2011, 01:10 PM	#4
TOAD Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Soon to be Moultonboro Posts: 258 Thanks: 1 Thanked 81 Times in 34 Posts	Were the spark plugs left out? That might be a point of entry. Other than that there is no easy direct route to get into one of the cylinders. __________________ "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.....Unknown....but attributed to George Washington

07-29-2011, 03:02 PM	#11
donnamatrix Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro Posts: 833 Thanks: 24 Thanked 258 Times in 120 Posts	You guys are smart! Wow... reading this post, y'all should open up a marine mechanic shop. I can barely understand this conversation, except there was (perhaps) a rodent!

08-02-2011, 12:02 PM	#26
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	Not be a buzzkill here... BUT!! http://nh.craigslist.org/boa/2521116656.html I just randomly typed in v6 in the search box! I have rebuilt more than a few motors and my advice would be something like the above.... keep one boat or strip one for the parts you need for the other. For $1500 you get a running motor, spare outdrive, spare everything! How can you beat that??? Hell use this boat this year.... Rebuilding a motor is fairly straightforward if your meticulous and know what your doing. You could spend alot of $$$ on your rebuild, but if you screw up one little thing... you could trash the whole motor and essentially throw your money away.... There is a reason mechanics rarely rebuild motors in thier shops anymore.... the headache and potential hassles are not worth it. With the motor out of the boat already and everything disconnected you might have an issue figuring out where all the wires & hoses connect. Also, dont forget you have to align the motor using an alignment tool before you put the outdrive back on. otherwise you will chew up your gimble bearing in about an hour of run time. Woodsy PS: If the boats been unused for 9 years you can bet the all the hoses and the waterpump in the outdrive need replacing! __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

08-03-2011, 08:07 PM	#37
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	Okay - I got the engine in my garage. It actually looks very good in all. The head has that brownish-greyish color like it's spent it's life in oil, and is still well oiled with not even a trace of surface rust. All the parts were there, all the rods, head bolts, etc were bagged up. It looked pretty complete. Some surface rust on the rest of the engine - the water pump is bad, but I was going to replace that anyways. Everything else is not too shabby. Then we get to the "offending cylinder".... I gave it a quick scrub with a wire brush to get some of the really egregious rust dealt with, and vacuumed it out. Do you think it's salvageable? Larger Version Larger Version Larger Version Larger Version So right now, I have the engine sitting on its side at like a 45 degree angle, with the offending cylinder filled to the brim with vinegar. We'll see what that does in a few days. Whataya think? Is it salvageable or am I scrod?

07-29-2011, 12:21 PM	#2
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	I'm having a hard time envisioning HOW a rodent got into one of the cylinders..and Why HE (the rodent) would want to get into a cylinder. The only way IN or OUT of the combustion chamber is through the valves. NB

07-29-2011, 01:09 PM	#3
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	Yes, (as it was described to me) - he got in through one of the valves that was in the open position.

07-29-2011, 02:10 PM	#7
VitaBene Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 3,530 Thanks: 1,570 Thanked 1,601 Times in 821 Posts	Regarding using a v8, remember the outdrive gear ratios are different for 4, 6, and 8 cylinder engines on alpha drives.

07-29-2011, 02:25 PM	#8
lawn psycho Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: On the move... Posts: 987 Thanks: 113 Thanked 248 Times in 133 Posts	Too bad he tok it apart. A trick is to squirt marvel mystery oil into the cylinder and let it soak and soak and soak. It really does wonders some times. Then you vacuum it out and crank her over. Now you need the piston to be below top dead center (tdc) but you could still try and it and use a breaker bar on the crank to turn it. MMO was made for this kind of thing and is worth the $5 it will cost for it. Soak it for 24 hour or longer.

07-29-2011, 02:50 PM	#9
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	Yes, that's what a lot of people are saying. The cylinder is near the bottom, so it can hold the oil, and shouldn't have too much to move before it breaks free. I just gotta get the block back from him. Thanks for the advise! -BKG

07-29-2011, 02:57 PM	#10
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	I think I overlooked something. If the head is OFF an engine, with "overhead valves," the pushrods would have been removed first.. therefore ALL the valves would be closed (head OFF) because the cam is not holding certain valves open. NB I still think the Renegade Rodent never got into a cylinder in the first place.

07-30-2011, 11:03 AM	#15
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	"My Guy" in the paper the other day... Skip’s Marine in dire straits following lawsuit - "Skip’s Marine in dire straits following lawsuit" http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/nashu...g-lawsuit.html

07-31-2011, 01:23 PM	#16
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	My advice is to go get everything and bring it home. Buy a book about rebuilding Chevy V6 or small block V8 engines (the 4.3 V6 is a 350 V8 with two missing cylinders) and rebuild the short block. It's not hard to do and the parts (pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets and seals), and machine work are very inexpensive. I'd be happy to lend you an engine stand and some of the specialized tools. I don't use them very often.

07-31-2011, 05:19 PM	#17
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks, Dave, I may have to take you up on that! I did just buy and engine stand today, and I believe there are some auto repair shops that lend our hoists. I think moving the engine around is going to be the hard part. I don't know what kind of "specialized" tools I may need - I rebuilt an engine on my Cressida once, and I had to borrow some whacky thing to lift the valves once from some stranger on the 'net! I dug out the service manual - which I bought many years ago when I rebuilt the carburetor. I think I am going to take your approach. I'm going to borrow a hoist and a pickup and get the engine this week. I'll let is sit with MMO or PB blaster for a couple weeks while I'm on vacation, and see how it does when I come back. Also - I talk to my "mechanic" - yesterday, who said something about me buying his V8 - and him putting my V6 in someone elses boat. (Wait, I thought you said it was unsalvageable!?) He was obviously willing to give me nothing back for my engine - even though he was going to put it in someone else's boat. He did also mention a good machine shop down the road - and I have been reading on some options with respect to honing or reboring the cylinder. I'm starting to believe this thing is not-so-unusable after all... Thanks for the help! -BKG

07-31-2011, 05:41 PM	#18
lawn psycho Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: On the move... Posts: 987 Thanks: 113 Thanked 248 Times in 133 Posts	Well is looks you have already have some motor savvy. Given you still have a stuck piston (or frozen crank) you have a block of unknown condition. Before going into the whole rebuild route I would exhaust every root possible to get the crank to turn. If you bust something you haven't lost anything at this point. Get a breaker bar on the crank pulley bolt and turn it like a Mo-Fo. If you soak it long enough you might get somewhere. Another thought is to overfill the crank case with some marvel mystery oil to soal the crank and bearings in case that is you issue. I am not one to discourage DIY but a motor swap is a whole lot easier than a rebuild. Most likely cheaper too. Getting the heads right with proper valve geometry is not forgiving for engine longevity if you get it wrong I've rebuilt motors before but I had an engine guy set the valves, rockers, etc. I'd be much more inclinded to buy a motor already rebuilt and plunk it in. Since you don't need the boat in a hurry it seems, then it could make for a fun project. Sounds like it's time for you to start reading on the Mercruiser Forums for the nuances you will run up against. Call Marine Parts Express as they may have a rebuilt "kit" to help reduce parts chasing. Good luck.

08-01-2011, 08:07 AM	#21
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	I got your PM and sent you an email. My advice is to inspect thoroughly and fix only what is necessary. Valves don't expire, so don't assume it'll need a valve job because it's 20 years old, they could be in perfect shape. That said, there are some parts that just make sense to change while the engine is apart: Rubber bits, like valve seals, do dry out over time and they are very cheap and easy to change, so those should be done. Rings should be changed any time the pistons are removed. Bearings can be inspected and re-used, but they are usually really cheap, so I recommend putting in new ones during re-assembly. Crank seals should never be re-used. You may want to investigate replacing your heads with Vortec heads and installing a roller cam. I think they are both bolt-on improvements that Mercruiser used in newer 4.3s that will give a nice HP and torque boost.

The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post:
bkgoodman (08-02-2011)

08-02-2011, 11:02 AM	#24
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	bkgoodman,I am in Nashua and have an engine crain if you need one. I agree with all the advice you've gotten,free up the frozen cylinder then inspect each cylinder for scoring and ridges. I have built alot of engines along with freeing up siezed ones (which I then drove ) and as stated prior if it's apart make sure you get a master engine set and replace all seals and gaskets timing chain and gears etc.. PS,not a fan of Skips or his former location.

08-02-2011, 11:26 AM	#25
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	Robmac: Thanks! I did buy a hoist last night, so I'm borrowing a friend's truck, and I should have the engine back to my place within a few days. I knew I needed the gasket set - I didn't know/think about the timing chain and gears. I am going to do a ring job too (never did one - don't know what it entails). Assuming I can get the engine to budge loose, I don't know if I should take it to a machine shop? Hone it? Have them do it? Have them lap the valve seats or whatever while it's apart? Do that myself? I can't really judge the condition it's in. Maybe if you're in the area you could take a peek -BKG

08-02-2011, 01:49 PM	#27
lawn psycho Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: On the move... Posts: 987 Thanks: 113 Thanked 248 Times in 133 Posts	I totally agree with Woodsy. If you were talking a show car and wanted original motor that's one thing but that's not the case here. Someone posted about setting valve lash as easy. Yes, after you've done a bunch of them. The net is filled with guys screaming for help after rebuilding motors and not starting or breaking something and having a bunch of re-do work and expense. By the time you track everything down you need you'll have wished you just bought a rebuilt motor. But, I also know people that enjoy the challenge so it comes down to how much time and energy you want to put into the project.

08-02-2011, 03:06 PM	#28
patman Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: NH Posts: 374 Thanks: 56 Thanked 152 Times in 76 Posts	What probably happened is that the rodent urine did the bulk of the damage. If you want to go industrial strength, skip the marvel, and use CLR, household vinegar, Oxalic Acid, or molasses. Give it a good soak then try to turn it over. Beware though, these will clean it down to the bare metal, which means it'll flash rust in no time flat unless you get some oil or something on it to protect it. Example from another site, 12 days in molasses. Before... ...and after:

08-04-2011, 08:27 AM	#39
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	I don't know your situation... I just dont see the point in wasting all that time and money (anywhere from $500 minimum to $$$ max) and still have a huge chance of failure, when for $1500 (just 1 example) to $2000 you can have a turn key replacement with lots of extra spare parts. Judging by the pics.... even if you free up the cylinder the piston will probably need to be removed and the cylinder honed... looks like you have some serious pitting. Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

08-04-2011, 01:06 PM	#40
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	That looks pretty bad. I would not count on getting it working with that bore. Looks to me like the head was removed and the engine was left exposed to weather for quite some time. There's rust in places that could only be caused by the head being left off, not "rodent" damage.

08-05-2011, 08:41 PM	#43
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	After 2 days in vinegar. I tried to capture the texture of the cylendar wall here. It looks a lot better - but I don't know if it's good enough. Do you think it need a hone, or a rebore? (Click an image for a larger view)

08-05-2011, 09:51 PM	#44
patman Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: NH Posts: 374 Thanks: 56 Thanked 152 Times in 76 Posts	A lot better, but...no, not good enough. Load 'er up again for another soak. In theory, a hone would do it because you just need to clean it up, but remember that is taking material off of the cylinder walls. The bigger you make the hole (and that's relatively small amount, it could be .001") the sloppier the fit, and the worse the compression/burning oil problems will be. At some point it gets loose enough that an overbore is the only answer. Once you get to that stage, you've jumped up in cost, and you should overbore all 6 holes (probably .010" or .020"), buy pistons to fit the bigger holes, have the rotating assembly balanced, etc, etc. If you want to roll the dice, soak it for another couple of days, and see what it looks like then. Maybe going over it gently with a fine grade scotchbrite periodically. The bore needs to be smooth enough to not catch your fingernail on anything.

08-07-2011, 07:00 AM	#47
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	It sure looks prior to cleaning as though it ha alot of water in it for a long period of time. Didn't you write that they were starting it each year? Those are pretty tough engines and take abuse pretty well but I agree that without knowing where it came from and how it got into the affected cylinder you might be throwing $ down the drain if you have block or head damage. Were the plugs still in the head? Was the engine cover and carb breather cover off? Something is missing, is it your engine?

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Blue Thunder For This Useful Post:
VitaBene (08-08-2011), Winnisquamguy (08-18-2011)

08-07-2011, 10:10 AM	#49
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	It's not that I don't want to buy a block - it's the right way to go. However, there's the block - the installation - hauling (I don't have a trailer - and the boat's in a boatyard in Merrimack), plus an additional $600 for some outdrive work - and of course marina fees for the summer. It all is adding up pretty heavily! Maybe if I sell a whole lot of my Winnipesaukee iPhone chart apps... ;-)

08-08-2011, 02:29 PM	#50
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	bk, don't forget there is another couple of inches of cylinder beyond that piston, I doubt the cleaning solution is working there.

08-17-2011, 09:07 PM	#53
Winnipesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 Thanks: 14 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts	I think if do you manage to salvage it that cylinder will be low on compression. That looked like a good deal of rust you took off there. I've never seen that before but have a hard time believing that a rodent got all the way into a cylinder. Would a leaking head gasket let something like that happen? __________________ Sail fast, live slow!

08-20-2011, 05:52 PM	#57
bkgoodman Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Nashua, NH Posts: 66 Thanks: 27 Thanked 16 Times in 6 Posts	Someone posted a link to a place in Maine that sold long blocks (for my engine) for $999. I can't find the link anywhere. Does anyone know the place? Or another? Places I've been finding on the web are MUCH more expensive!

08-22-2011, 08:58 AM	#58
Woodsy Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Weirs Beach Posts: 1,949 Thanks: 80 Thanked 969 Times in 432 Posts	try doing a search for Doug Russell Marine... they are in MA and they wholesale Merc stuff pretty cheap. You might also want to try my idea from above... I think your gonna need all the spare parts! Woodsy __________________ The only way to eliminate ignorant behavior is through education. You can't fix stupid.

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