Some Ossipee snowmobile trails closed??

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

The fact is that although the actual area of a snowmobile trail might be small, the area affected by the vehicles is much louder. Even the "quiet" snowmobiles are loud enough to scare away wildlife. Beyond how this affects the hikers and skiiers, the animals have the right to exist as well, and not be bombarded with loud machines whining by every few minutes.

Very interesting point, indeed.

However, perhaps you would be so kind as to enlighten me as to what wonder of Mother Nature shared a doughnut on the trail with me, as I sat upon my snowmobile, if not a Canada Jay?

[upthesaukee]

It's interesting to note the issue of noise relating to wildlife.

I have snowshoed on the "D" trail here in Alton and moved off the trail no more than 20 Yards to sit on a bare rock to have a snack (lunch). While sitting there, a couple of deer appeared across the opening from us, and paid us little mind. What was really funny was the snow machines (3 or 4 groups of 2-4 machines) that went by while we were sitting there, and the deer did nothing but stand there looking at the trail and watch the machines go by. They are a lot smarter than we give them credit for being. They seem to sense that the snowmobile is not a problem for them while they are off the trail.

Similar scenario that has played out here at my home. I have a solitary turkey that has decided it likes the scattered sunflower seeds from my bird feeders. It is no more than 20-25 feet from the house and not more than 50-60 feet from the street. Cars going by have no real affect on it. What scares the heck out of it is me pulling in the driveway and hitting the garage door opener. Talk about a big bird getting up in the air immediately!!!!

Point is that wildlife adapt readily to us, and probably have in CITC as well.

I haven't snowmobiled there since the 1980's, but I have fond memories of the trails and views, and sincerely hope that perhaps next season some added trails will open.

[jeffk]

I think it's interesting how people transfer their dislike of noise to animals "disliking" noise. While a loud, unexpected noise can scare, snowmobiles don't fall into that category. They can be heard as a quiet buzz before they are visible. The animals are well aware they are approaching. In 30 years of snowmobiling, except for a pheasant or two, I can't think of an animal that has shown much more than bored disinterest. some at a distance not even looking up.
When I went to Yellowstone the elk had free access to the areas around the trails. If they were bothered by our presence they could have kept a considerable distance away. However, a couple of times we had to wait for elk to get off the trail. This was a group of over 30 sleds. Were the elk scared of us? I don't think so.
Another thing to think about. Since most trials are in undeveloped areas and animals are also likely to be in those areas, it could be argued that there should be no snowmobile trails because it "bothers" the animals. Sorry, I just don't buy it. Snowmobiles are a lot quieter that they used to be and will continue to get better over time. That's a desirable goal. In the meantime I don't believe that the animals around the trails are being traumatized by the presence of todays machines.

[Ski Man]

I'm not sure what animals you guys are dealing with, but as far as I've known and experienced all througout my life, most animals are very much frightened of humans and human activities.

[Lakegeezer]

Without the winter grooming and trail maintenance from the Moultonboro snowmobile club, the wonderful trails up in the Ossipees could go to waste. Its a good hike (2+ miles uphill) to even get up to the best ones, so it would be only a select few that would go there without motors anyway. Then, in the winter, without grooming, deep snow (if we ever get it again) would be very difficult traveling. My view is that keeping the trails open in the winter makes it possible for more recreation by all (skiers, snowshoers, sledders), and its very possible that the animals also appreciate having a cleared and packed path to use. Closing the trails effectively eliminates access to all. We have seen a debate about speed limits on the lake bring out points on both sides of the issue and common sense prevailed. The conservation trust, funded in part by those like me with an interest in conservation, should open the issue to debate, not dictate.

[JG1222]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

...and its very possible that the animals also appreciate having a cleared and packed path to use.

No - you didn't just say that out loud, did you?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the animals were probably doing OK "navigating" through nature without our help.

Thanks for the chuckle so early in the morning. This made my day.

[JG1222]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

The fact that most of the people here are so quick to attack anyone who opposes snowmobile trails, calling them "treehuggers" or extreemists, or whatnot, is very disheartening. I haven't seen anyone calling you rednecks or white trash.

OK, I've read this a few times now... So, what exactly does this mean?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Lakegeezer

"...My view is that keeping the trails open in the winter makes it possible for more recreation by all (skiers, snowshoers, sledders), and its very possible that the animals also appreciate having a cleared and packed path to use."

All cleared areas are an inducement for deer. They "appreciate" the forage that grows low down where they can reach it -- forage that gets the sunlight unavailable in "deep woods".

Powerline clearings and development clearings attract deer -- if that's a good thing.

I happen to like all of the Lake Region's critters, so I don't care one way or the other.

Whether fleeing or standing still, critters are still stressed by human encroachments -- and who could blame them?

[Ski Man]

Originally Posted by JG1222

OK, I've read this a few times now... So, what exactly does this mean?

They're just insulting terms to describe a specific demographic, like "treehugger." These types of terms are generally only used by people who are too insecure in their arguments to debate without such terms.

[JG1222]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

They're just insulting terms to describe a specific demographic, like "treehugger." These types of terms are generally only used by people who are too insecure in their arguments to debate without such terms.

I do understand the terms. I guess my point is that you unfortunatly negate the argument above if you're just going to turn around and use the other terms in your next sentence. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but it was seen by me as a little inflamatory.

The only reason for my bringing it up, is that it seems that lately, discussions in the forum tend to be not so much discussions, but rants, insults, and personal attacks that don't really have much to do with the actual topic of the thread.

I guess what I'm saying is that I wish people would think about how they can add something to the discussion (whether it be fact, fun, or general interest), and not just see how fast they can zing the other guy that just posted something they disagree with. It's a snowball effect that tumbles out of control, and before long, we end up with a thread like "Speed Limits".

My two cents.

[Ski Man]

Well, my point wasn't to call snowmobilers rednecks, I certainly don't think that they are, nor do I think that snowmobiling is wrong, I just think that those who choose to do it should respect that it is a relatively high-impact activity, and that other people have the right not to want snowmobiling allowed everywhere.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Whether fleeing or standing still, critters are still stressed by human encroachments -- and who could blame them?

Sorry, this is exactly what I find amusing. The image of a dear on a psychiatrists couch pops to mind. "Doctor, It's those snowmobiles ..." I don't accept that the meer presence of humans is a stess to animals. If the humans are chasing or hunting the animals, OK. But simply being there, even making some noise, I don't accept that. Deer are very skittish, for them to simply watch a snowmobile or go back to grazing after a minute shows me that they are not "stressed".

[Ski Man]

Almost all animals have evolved the ability to recoginze and fear humans, because humans are the most dangerous predators on earth. Yes, human presence does stress out deer.

[jeffk]

Yup. That's why in petting zoos and deer farms the animals all run the other way when people are around. Oh, my mistake. They tend to move toward the people or just stand around.
In several areas in New Hampshire, deer have become a problem because they are attracted to human areas. Granted that sometimes that is because food is available there but you can stop and take pictures of some of the deer and they don't react very much.
Animals react to unknown and threatening environments. People using trails that have been around for years are not unknown. People passing through are not threatening. The animals quickly adjust to the presence of the new "animals" in their habitat. Animals have to adapt to things all the time, food shortage, lots of snow, extreme cold, drought, real preditors (the kind that want to eat them). People passing by and looking at them might not be common but it's not high on the threat list.

[Ski Man]

Animals at petting zoos can't be considered wild animals. Not only are they always around humans, but these humans are always feeding them, of course their behavior will change. Similarly, deer are attracted to human areas because those areas tend to have a lot more available food, not because they just love people so much that they want to be near them.

You can argue with antecdotes all you like, but the fact is that wild animals fear humans, and will tend to stop what they're doing and flee at the sight of them. This does stress them out, and if repeated, will cause them to alter their behavioral patterns.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

.............. I just think that those who choose to do it should respect that it is a relatively high-impact activity, and that other people have the right not to want snowmobiling allowed everywhere.

Ok, once again, please refer me to the study or the scientific basis from which you make the statement "relatively high-impact activity" as a certainty. I would have an easier time dealing with it if it began; in my humble opinion a "relatively high-impact activity".

And last time I was on my snowmobile, I was not allowed to use it "everywhere". In fact as evidenced by this thread, there are less places now for me to operate and I certainly can't run everywhere. I don't buy the Bambi's scared arguments.

[Ski Man]

I've requested some studies, I'll post them asap.

[GWC...]

Originally Posted by Ski Man

You can argue with antecdotes all you like, but the fact is that wild animals fear humans, and will tend to stop what they're doing and flee at the sight of them. This does stress them out, and if repeated, will cause them to alter their behavioral patterns.

I've requested some studies, I'll post them asap.

Don't forget to share your studies with the LRCT.

I'm sure the LRCT will act accordingly to protect Mother Nature's own by closing the Castle in the Clouds to all human activity, including the bottling of water, and not just Winter activities such as snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, and hiking.

After all, we would not desire to stress out the animals, especially the endangered ones - they might trample some of the endangered plant species as they attempt to flee humans intruding upon their territory.

We appreciate your impute and can only hope that Thomas Curren is as conscientious and concerned about the human impact upon Mother Nature's own as are you - after all, Thomas Curren has the power to protect plant and animal life from human intrusion upon the vast expanse of the Castle in the Clouds property. I only hope he is passionate about his cause and not full of beans - time will tell.

[Ski Man]

Originally Posted by GWC...

After all, we would not desire to stress out the animals, especially the endangered ones - they might trample some of the endangered plant species as they attempt to flee humans intruding upon their territory.

This is the attitude that bothers me. As if it's some radical, crazy concept to consider the well being of the other species.

[jeffk]

OK, since my and others direct observations are dismissed as anecdotal how about a few studies that essentially say the same thing. That the majority of animals around snowmobile activity show NO reaction to the snowmobiles and most of those that do quickly return to their previous activity. I would equate this a car driving by a house. Some people look up to see who it is, others ignore it. By the way, a formal study is often just a collection of anecdotes.

I did find an interesting study on glucocorticoid levels (stress hormone) in elk and wolves. This clearly shows increased levels of the hormone around snowmobiles. However, the study also concludes no observable impact of snowmobiles on the population because it is healthy and stable. When I put on a party for friends my stress hormones are probably elevated as I prep for the party. The presence of stress is not necessarily a problem. The studies express the same information that I previously stated, that there are other much more stressful events in the winter environment. I would like to have seen follow up on this information (2002) but I didn't find more recent research.

It is also noted that cross country skiers and back country snow shoers cause more stess than snowmobilers. I would speculate, as I mentioned previously, that snowmobilers travel a obvious route with clearly defined "tracks" and "scent" and are noisy enough that they don't sneak up on the animals. If the animals are concerned about snowmobile riders as preditors they are probably amused about how bad we are at it.

The bison study actually seems to be worried that because snowmobile trails make it easier to travel, more bison may survive the stresses of winter and the population is growing. The growing population is staying off of National Forest lands and being killed by ranchers. They use helicopters to chase (no stess there ) the straying bison back onto the forest preserve.

I don't think it's a crazy idea to be concerned about other species. On the other hand I don't accept that the presence of humans in the wild is automatically a bad thing for animals or the environment. The arguements about animals being "stressed" without any proof and flying in the face of my personal observations is a bit hard to accept. I look forward to any further studies that others may find.


Groomed trails' effects on bison not proven
http://www.billingsgazette.com/index...l/65-bison.inc

MSU study: Snowmobiles can stress wildlife - May 29, 2002
http://www.montana.edu/commserv/csne...hp?article=352

Snowmobile Activity and Glucocorticoid Stress Responses in Wolves and Elk
http://www.montana.edu/wwwbi/staff/creel/snomoGC.pdf

Final Rule Snowmobiles NPS - 20 November 2002
http://www.propertyrightsresearch.or...obiles_nps.htm
ISMA information

The Argument to Keep Yellowstone Open
The Truth About Snowmobiling
http://www.snowmobile.org/pr_argumentsopen.asp

[christo1]

I was out on the sled today friday jan 28 and came to the castle trails entrance the gate was locked with a sign that said closed until further notice.Iwas under the impression the main trail was going to remain open over the ossipee mts?

[Lakegeezer]

Found at the NH Trails Bureau http://www.nhtrails.org/Trailspages/...oTrlCndtn.html

Castle in the Clouds: The Castle trail is not open or being maintained at this time. The Red Hill trail is also not being maintained.

Any confirmation?

[ITD]

Red Hill is still on the Moultonboro Snowmobile site. They say on their home page that the gates will not be opened until they have enough snow. I haven't been up in a while, apparently there isn't enough snow on the trails.


http://www.moultonborosmc.com/trail_conditions.htm


Home page http://www.moultonborosmc.com/

[Zee]

We sledded the area Saturday and found the Castle trail (Corr. 15) was not open. Unfortunately there were sleds that had somehow accessed the grounds and were bushwacking around the gate to get off the property. My assumption is the Ossippee side was not properly secured and folks were gaining access that way. It also did not appear that Moultonboro snowmobile club had groomed any trails. We did not violate the gate closing and rode trail 26 instead. The riding was pretty good considering. We rode some of the Wofeboro trails as well and they had not been groomed either. There were lots of sleds out there. The warming hut on the powerlines is open in Wolfeboro.....Great hot dogs! There appears to be enough snow for grooming, I guess I just don't understand the physics involved in making the decision not to groom.

With the closing of even Corridor 15, it is a very long way around to get to Ossipee. in fact you probably "can't get there from here". This also has to have a big impact on local businesses. Prior years, the parking lot on rt. 171 in Tuftonboro was jammed with trucks and sleds on the weekend. Saturday, there was not one truck to be found. Gee, with all the solitude, where were all the deer? I guess they were still stressed!

Well, enough venting.

[Orion]

Where are all the deer? We had three of them cross right in front of and between us on the Moultonboro trail to Melvin Village. I have never seen deer this close when hiking. I guess they are more afraid of hikers than they were of our four 4-stroke snowmobiles. Probably didn't hear us coming.

[jeffk]

If you check out the Snowmobile Manufacturers web site they talk about many studies that seem to confirm that animals are much less concerned about snowmobiles than they are about people on foot or sking.
http://www.snowmobile.org/facts_ece.asp
Very clever these "dumb" animals.
It is funny to think that the people who want only the "right kinds" of activities in their woods may actually "stress" the animals more than the big, bad snowmobilers.
Some of the researchers comments about the environmental lobby are illuminating. There seems to be an attitude in some lobbiests of "Don't confuse me with the facts. Snowmobiles are bad!" This may explain why we are not having a "public" conversation about these trails. It's easier to make up your "facts" when not to many people are examining them too closely.
The only valid concern that I can see in all the studies I have seen is that if snow is not sufficient there can be damage to the plants and soil. That is probably the case this year but if that is the reason, why can't we have a discussion about that rather than the arrogant attitudes that we seem to be encountering?

[fatlazyless]

Just like all the 300 lb sixth graders that plague the schools of NH, a quik glance tells you that the sno-mo crowd are also grossly overweight. While the very new and very expensive four-stroke sleds are much quieter and without the distinct & voluminous exhaust plume of two-stroke snomo oil & gasoline, the great majority of the sleds out there, are the noisey-smelly two-stroke machines. So, why not take this closing of the miles & miles & miles of your long-time favorite, and formerly friendly Ossipee Mountain trail system as a stepping stone to better health. You all might want to haul your sleds down to the local junkyard and start perusing the second hand stores and yard sales for a pair of snow shoes and a olde ski poles. You will be very surprised how much distance you can cover, going up hill, in a three hour time, and how many calories get burned off. And hey there Mr SnoMo, if you want to go hug a tree, no one will be there to see it!

[Orion]

FLL, turns out that snowmobiling is only one of many activities that I and many other snowmobilers participate in. I happen to also have snowshoes and cross country skis, but life would be pretty boring doing the same thing over and over. Life is for living. The more variety, the better life is. Also, snowmobiling can provide a good amount of exercise if you're doing mountain trail riding.

I'm sure I don't speak for all snowmobilers, but let's be careful of generalities.

[Zee]

FLL - Lets follow your "logic" here. If we all get rid of our boats and swim the lake for our recreation, we can keep real lean and trim. We would also stop a lot of lake pollution and stop stressing the fish (and the rock bass!)

[legend]

The trails are now open. The Bureau of Trails has signed an agreement with Lakes Region Conservation Trust on insurance coverage. Read Carol Carter's story in today's Union Leader.
Legend

[Orion]

Thanks for the update!
Here's the link:

http://www.theunionleader.com/Articl...0403&archive=1