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Old 12-17-2013, 04:50 PM   #1
upthesaukee
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Default Ice Thickness Safety

Now that ice is forming, and we undoubtably will start to hear about vehicles, ATV's, snowmobiles, and people going through the ice.

Here is info from the State of Minnesota.

2 inches or less: KEEP OFF!!!!!

4 inches: ice-fishing or other on foot activities

5 inches: Snowmobiles or ATV's

8-12 inches Cars

12-15 inches Medium Truck

Here is the page: http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/ice/thickness.html

When in doubt, STAY OFF. Be safe, and don't take the next heavier vehicle out on the ice to test it .

Bottom Line (yes I am shouting) BE SAFE!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-17-2013, 05:08 PM   #2
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Along with the "Ice In" thread, we should have a contest similar to Ice Out... Predict the date/time when the first moron will lose a vehicle weighing 500lbs or more through the ice.
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Old 12-17-2013, 05:38 PM   #3
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Although I'm missing a lot of fun...

I need the ice to reach the BOTTOM OF THE LAKE before I'll drive on it.
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Old 12-17-2013, 06:57 PM   #4
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I am curious, how thick will the ice get in the deeper water?
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Old 12-17-2013, 07:46 PM   #5
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Default Ice

I have been walking and sailing on the Ice on Winni and many other lakes in New England since 1969. Early ice is "Black Ice". That is what we are seeing now (Web Cams). (Ice boating..Remember Don Kent..? He was an Ice boater AND a weatherman out of Boston.)

Black Ice is the best. You can look down through the ice..It's CLEAR..At the cracks you can see how thick the ice is. You have to use "Judgment"..as to how thick it is.

I have walked and sailed on 2.5 inches of Black Ice. The ambient temperature is also important. Best Below freezing while you are out there.. No Bob Houses, snow machines...etc... just pedestrians.....And ICE Boats OK. The weight load (Pounds per square foot on the ice is light.)

One time: I was ice boating on 2.5 inches of good ice ..in the rain ..temp maybe 40..on Norton Reservoir in Mass. Went for a Swim.

Once the lake (Winni) "Catches"...If the temperature at night is below 21 degrees..it can build an Inch a night.

Once snow....melting ...and refreezing gets involved...all bets are off. ICE Experience counts. NB


PS: I have no experience on how much ICE is needed to support your SUV or a Motor Home...I have seen those on the ice..
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:04 PM   #6
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I am curious, how thick will the ice get in the deeper water?
I think depth of the water... underneath the ice is of no consequence. NB
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:09 PM   #7
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Good food for thought...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...x689qIA9joMGNw
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Old 12-17-2013, 11:34 PM   #8
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What not to do in an ice rescue. Maybe someone with ice rescue training can dissect what they did wrong and what they should have done.

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Old 12-18-2013, 08:58 AM   #9
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What not to do in an ice rescue. Maybe someone with ice rescue training can dissect what they did wrong and what they should have done.
It would be easier to find anything that was done right! Hard to believe that many people could be that incompetent.

Everyone in our house gets these (or ones like them) as stocking stuffers on Christmas Day.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:25 AM   #10
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It would be easier to find anything that was done right! Hard to believe that many people could be that incompetent.

Everyone in our house gets these (or ones like them) as stocking stuffers on Christmas Day.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Great idea MM!

The main rule is staying calm, easier said than done when you're in freezing water or your friend/loved one is the victim. Panic is normal but it has to be overcome, minutes truly count here.
When we train we get into the big red gumby suits and one firefighter is the victim while the other firefighter would be the rescuer. Crews on shore assist with ropes and other equipment. In good conditions we get on a sled, belly down, and paddle atop the ice to the victim. The rescuer goes in the water and corrals the victim by putting a rope around them. Once he has the victim he uses hand signals to pull them both onto the ice via ropes. Once out of the ice both the victim and rescuer are dragged to the shore or safe ice. If there is slush or snow atop the ice the sled is much harder to use. I can tell you that it is extremely difficult if not impossible to get out of the water and back onto the ice. Instinct tells you to get out of the water as you would a pool by putting your palms on top of the ice and hoisting yourself out, but when you do this your legs rise, toes straight up, and you fall backward. Add exhaustion, numb limbs and panic and you're all done. If you jump in to get your friend he will probably take you down while flailing in panic, you're both done unless you have enough strength to lift the victim and then yourself out.
My advice would be to call 911 or alert people to get help asap. Stay away from the edge and lay flat on your belly. First verbally try and calm the victim down telling him help is coming. The goal is to get the victim to the edge until rescue arrives, attempting extrication only if you know nobody is coming. The trick to getting out is getting to the edge and rapidly kicking like you're swimming. This will raise you out of the water enough to use your shoulders. Usually the ice will break again causing more panic. Ice picks like MM mentioned would be priceless, as long as they are accessible when you fall in. If you do get someone out, they will probably be hypothermic. You have to treat hypothermic people very gently, they are at risk for cardiac arrhythmia until warmed. Once warmed get extremely drunk and thank your lucky stars.
One thing I noticed was the shoreline behind the victim seemed rather close. Had I been responding to that incident I'd probably look at getting them to shore before ice rescue.

Last edited by PaugusBayFireFighter; 12-19-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:28 AM   #11
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Too much weight on the ice, and not prepared are too of the main reasons for this failure.

REACH - THROW and then GO !

1 CALL 911 - we have the equipment for this

1A] attempt to reach the person in the water with a stick, tree limb, ladder or long pole.

2] Throw a flotation device to them - cushion, life preserver or a rope. If you throw a rope , remember to throw it at them and aim OVER their head. Hypothermia will soon set in and then may not be able to reach the rope it it to the side of them. If the rope is on them , they have a better chance of grasping it.

3] Go - the LAST effort, going to the person. If you are going to go to them you need to CRAWL, not stand. Your weight is much more displaced when you crawl and chances of falling in like many of on the video are lessened. Use a float able sled or a small boat to get to them. To note, if you stand and fall in, the shock of the cold water may paralyze some, it is a muscle reaction and this is one way rescuers drown. If you crawl and the ice breaks, you slowly go into the water and the shock is less.

3a] IF you GO into the water,make sure you are tied off to a rope with some one on shore ready to pull you in. The victim may start to panic. Approach the victim from the rear, do not go face to face, they are scared and will attempt to climb over you or use you as a float. 2nd biggest way rescuers drown. Approach from the rear, hug them real tight (unless this is a rescue rope) and have people on the shore pull you in to shore, not just the next ice shelf.
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Old 12-18-2013, 01:01 PM   #12
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That is a frightening video with so many things wrong going on. Did everybody make it out alive?
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:44 PM   #13
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Wow, Wow, Wow!!!
This is incredible information for anybody, around a lake or not!

This information, from post #1 on, should be gathered and posted in every news paper, reported on every television station, printed on restaurant place mats, grocery bags, cereal boxes, ...everywhere! This info is much to important to be hidden in a thread.

A huge thankyou to everyone!
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:35 PM   #14
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I started walking and Sailing (Iceboats) the lake in 1969. In those days, we MADE our own ICE SPIKES ...spikes are absolutely required. (Now you can buy them. See post #9.)

"Creeper's" are also required equipment. They are rubber things with spikes on them that you strap on your shoes/boots that allow you to walk on the ice without "Slipping".

If you need to pull someone out of the water and you are on ice........you will have NO TRACTION on the ice without "Creepers". Whatever ice activity you are engaged in..Have "Ice Spikes" AND "Creepers" on your person.

The Ice Spikes have a String connected between the two...which you will wear around your neck...outside your gear.. so they are readily available.

AN ADD ON: NEVER NEVER go out on the ice ALONE...STUPID...Just Sayin..

I HAVE been Swimming... in the ice.. so I know how it is. NB
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:01 AM   #15
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Snowmobiles have already been out on 19 Mile Bay!
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoBozo View Post
I started walking and Sailing (Iceboats) the lake in 1969. In those days, we MADE our own ICE SPIKES ...spikes are absolutely required. (Now you can buy them. See post #9.)

"Creeper's" are also required equipment. They are rubber things with spikes on them that you strap on your shoes/boots that allow you to walk on the ice without "Slipping".

If you need to pull someone out of the water and you are on ice........you will have NO TRACTION on the ice without "Creepers". Whatever ice activity you are engaged in..Have "Ice Spikes" AND "Creepers" on your person.

The Ice Spikes have a String connected between the two...which you will wear around your neck...outside your gear.. so they are readily available.

AN ADD ON: NEVER NEVER go out on the ice ALONE...STUPID...Just Sayin..

I HAVE been Swimming... in the ice.. so I know how it is. NB
As a kid, I fell through on a local pond while skating. Thank God it was only up to my waist but it is SCARY and the cold almost paralyzes you. It's incredibly hard to climb out; to get the traction. All it takes is a thin patch or a hole and you can be gone. I wear Stablicers now when I walk Sadie in slippery conditions. If I were walking out on the lake I'd certainly use those plus I'd get set of the Ice spikes.
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:49 PM   #17
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Default My Experience..in the water

I was sailing on Norton Reservoir (MA). The ice was about 2.5..3.0 inches of black ice. However, the Resevoir was known for having "springs"...and it was shallow. There had been holes that had re-frozen overnight...to LESS than 2.5 inches...and then a dusting of snow. Voila.

I was sailing a DN Iceboat. The wind was light....the ambient temp was maybe 40. I sailed over that spot and Slow Landed in the Skimmed over..and snow dusted over refrozen hole.

I was wearing a snowmobile suit. Upon entry into the water...There was the expected "Shrinkage".. but then it wasn't so bad. The boat went into the hole and tipped over..with the 16 foot long mast laying over to one side..onto good ice. I was able to walk over the sail up onto the ice and escape.

After I walked out, my friends and I had to figure out how to get the boat out of the water. Decision: I would Go Back in the water and "pull the pins" to release the rigging so the boat could be slid out. It worked.

BTW: The snowmobile suit worked a little like a wetsuit...once the water entered the suit, my body warmed up the water enough to prevent total shock. Just rememberin.... NB
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Old 12-21-2013, 07:16 AM   #18
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BTW: The snowmobile suit worked a little like a wetsuit...once the water entered the suit, my body warmed up the water enough to prevent total shock. Just rememberin.... NB
Are you sure it was lake water warming your suit?
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:14 PM   #19
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Hi PBFF. I'm old enough to recognize your Avatar. Heil Hitl..Smack.. Smack. Can't remember the name of the guy who rode The Bomb down out of that B-52. Great stuff.

Much Sadness...Not Lake related. NB
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:52 PM   #20
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Hi PBFF. I'm old enough to recognize your Avatar. Heil Hitl..Smack.. Smack. Can't remember the name of the guy who rode The Bomb down out of that B-52. Great stuff.

Much Sadness...Not Lake related. NB
Aircraft commander Major T. J. "King" Kong rode the bomb
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Old 12-22-2013, 09:44 PM   #21
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That is a frightening video with so many things wrong going on. Did everybody make it out alive?
This is a report from cnn. They report no serious injuries and that it took 9 minutes to get everyone out of the water.

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Old 01-03-2014, 09:37 PM   #22
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Default Ice picks work

Some guys on the Big Lake use ice picks. Looks cold to me.



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