Geothermal heat

kimdaved · 11-15-2010, 08:57 PM

We currently have a seasonal cottage that we are in the process of designing a new 4 season home. Cottage is about 90 years old and it's time for a major renovation/rebuild. Does anybody have any experience using GEOTHERMAL HEATING System? The property is located on the water. Does this create any issues?

BroadHopper · 11-16-2010, 05:02 AM

I have extensive research on various heating methods for this area. I decided to go with the Air source HVAC system. You will find info on this at Energysavers in Belmont NH. On Rte 3.

Worst case is forced air. You lose 50% of your heat in the duct work and intitial heating.

Next best is forced hot water. If you go this route look into propane or if you have access to it natural gas. The futures are trading must better than oil.

Open air source is very efficient down to 20 degrees. I am told there the new ones are down to 0 degrees. For heat monitoring/backup, I have chosen propane stove for each room. Stargazer in Gilford next to Lowes have the best price and service.

Geothermal is the best. However payback is a long way down the road. Even with tax incentives. You still need backup.

Talk to PSNH about the Energy Star program for your home. It will save you more money and allow for a tax break on the home.

Belmont Resident · 11-16-2010, 05:27 AM

I worked on a new house that went the geothermal route about 3-4 years ago. He loves it to this day. There are some drawbacks but they can be discussed with a rep.
I believe he averages about $1100 a year; this includes heat, AC and hot water for a 7000sqft home.
Yes there are or were significant tax incentives in NH for Geo as well as banks being more willing to lend due to the return on your investment. About 8 years is what he figured it to be.
As for backup he has none and I see no reason to have one unless I'm missing something. Maybe a generator for power loss but a backup heat source?

tummyman · 11-16-2010, 08:12 AM

Would love Geo, but have Forced Hot Water heat and no way to run ducts for hot air/air conditioning(which we do not need). Has anyone EVER found geothermal can work for forced hot water? I am told that the issue is the water temp cannot get to the 180 +/- degrees, but maybe newer technology has made headway in this area. If it can be used, I would definitely invest in a system. Would like to hear any thoughts....

tis · 11-16-2010, 08:16 AM

I wish we could find out the true story about geothermal. We recently checked it out and NOBODY encouraged us to put it in. It seems it is expensive to put in and VERY expensive to maintain. We were told that it doesn't work that well. We were also told about people that took it out. So we just gave up. Maybe someday it will be perfected as will solar but until then we just have to stick with oil.

DickR · 11-16-2010, 09:26 AM

It's hard to believe all the disinformation in some of the posts so far in this thread.

"Worst case is forced air. You lose 50% of your heat in the duct work and intitial heating." This statement makes no sense unless you run ductwork in an unheated crawl space or unconditioned attic, without insulation around the ductwork, and without the duct joints completely sealed. All of that represents a poorly designed and installed forced warm air system, something totally unacceptable for a new home. If all your ductwork is within the conditioned envelope of the house, none is "lost".

"You still need backup." A GSHP (ground source heat pump, aka "geothermal") doesn't need a backup system anymore than any other type of heating system. Can it break and need service? Of course, as can any other type of system.

"It seems it is expensive to put in and VERY expensive to maintain. We were told that it doesn't work that well." Installation costs vary widely. There is no "typical," just as there is no "typical" location (part of country, terrain, rural vs. suburban, etc). For a new rural house in the northeast, properly designed to be very thermally efficient, if a well must be drilled for water anyway, then installation cost may not cost much more than a fuel-fired heating system. Maintenance of a GSHP typically is less than for a fuel-fired system. Like a refrigerator, it just sits there and runs for years. If distribution is by warm air, then filters need changing periodically.

Kimdaved, the first part of your house design should focus on making it very, very thermally efficient, possibly in the superinsulated class. That costs perhaps 5% more than conventional construction. We're only talking about the outer shell, mind you. Once you have a good shell designed, then think about how to heat the place. Having a very low heat demand makes GSHP that much more attractive, as the system is that much smaller.

Warm air for distribution of the heat is convenient, efficient, and lets you reverse the heat flow to give you A/C in the hot, humid parts of the summer. There are a number of good websites out there on GSHP. Do your research well, and don't rely on heresay.

Our situation is like yours, although we are further along. Old cottage, new house design. But ours is nearing completion. Yes, it is a superinsulated design, and the heat source will be GSHP. The well had to be drilled much deeper than the heat pump needs for the expected load, so the drilling part was essentially "free."

BroadHopper · 11-16-2010, 04:35 PM

PSNH will give you unbiased consultation in HVAC matters. Free of charge. Give them a call. A PSNH consultant went over the house to determine the best way to insulate the home for energy star rating. He will even recomend insulation contractors and inspect their work.

He will also give you guidelines as the best method to heat and or cool your home for this climate. Its a great service that I would recomend for anyone who wants local experience and opinion.

No. I do not work for PSNH. I am a very satified client.

ACutAbove · 11-17-2010, 06:02 PM

I installed a well system last yr for a client of mine at his waterfront home almost 7000 sq ft. It was a retrofit from his original oil burning system ( which we left in place for the hot water and as a back up system) Also in order to get the rebate from the CO OP you are required at that time to have a back up system. I will not go into numbers on the forum as to cost or actual savings with the system, but the pay back worked out to be about 7-8 yrs if I remember right. We also heat the indoor pool off the same system and the hot tub. The system works awesome weather it is heating in the winter or cooling in the summer. We used all quality components a have not had a problem with any of them as of now.
We also did a loop system at another house where we dug big pits and buried about 400 ft of 1 inch coils in the ground and do the heat transfer useing that method. You need to have a good amount of land to be able to do that type of system and on the water front there usually isnt enough.
If you would like to message me I would be happy to give you some info andpossiably answer some questions for you.

Comptonbuilder · 11-17-2010, 07:38 PM

Good Evening

My name is Scott Compton, I am a General Contractor, I use a company called AmericanAir. They are located in Madison, NH. They do alot of Geothermol heat jobs. The person you need to contact is John, his number is 603-455-4616.
On a different note, if you are entertaining bids for your project I would be more than happy to provide one for you. I can be reached at my home office 603-279-1029 or my cell phone 603-234-1277.

songkrai · 12-18-2010, 01:40 PM

As I have stated in other posts. I would skip propane.

Investigate how many BTU's come from a unit of fuel.

With propane you are stuck with one company - the one that provides the tank. You can purchase a tank but they are expensive and no one really does this. And every time you switch propane companies - they trample thru your home and record every serial number of every appliance. Too mush hassle.

With oil you can pick any company. And as I have previously stated build in some redundant heating. Oil and electric. A wood stove is good. Monitor keresene heaters provide great heat.

Probably a good idea to check into an automatic generator while you at thinking about all of this.

BroadHopper · 12-20-2010, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by songkrai

As I have stated in other posts. I would skip propane.

Investigate how many BTU's come from a unit of fuel.

With propane you are stuck with one company - the one that provides the tank. You can purchase a tank but they are expensive and no one really does this. And every time you switch propane companies - they trample thru your home and record every serial number of every appliance. Too mush hassle.

With oil you can pick any company. And as I have previously stated build in some redundant heating. Oil and electric. A wood stove is good. Monitor keresene heaters provide great heat.

Probably a good idea to check into an automatic generator while you at thinking about all of this.

I purchased a used undergound propane tank and had it tested. Having done so I can switch propane suppliers. It is not really necessary as the local suppliers prices are pretty much the same. BTU to BTU and figure in the annual maintenance for oil vs. maintenance every 3 years for gas, it is cheaper on gas. You can get propane generators as well as hot water heaters (tank/tankless), gas stoves and gas dryers. if you want you can have a propane grill and patio fire pit as well! Try that with oil!

songkrai · 12-20-2010, 08:24 PM

I too own my own propane tanks. And yes, I can switch companies at will. But each company still must come inside and record every gas appliance. So switching is a tad more complicated then oil. Most people do not own their own propane tanks so they are stuck with the one company that provided the propane tank. They can switch companies but that requires the removal of the tank and another tank put in its place. And the trampling thru the house each time. And a heavy truck driving across their property. And if any water/septic pipes, electrical wiring is underground - the potential of breakage can become an issue. These are heavy trucks delivering propane trucks. Owning the propane tank is a good idea. But most people do not want to fork over that large amount of money.

Here is this quotation from another source:

"I am an Oil Heat and Propane Technician in Southern Maine. To me there is no comparison betwen Oil and Propane costs, Oil is much cheaper. You need to burn 1.42 gallons of propane to equal the heat recieved from one gallon of heating oil. The appliances usually run with in 5-10% of each other as far as efficency.
Think of this way if you burn 1000 gallons of Oil a year, you'll need 1400 gallons of propane. Call you local retailer and ask then for the cash price of each. Do the math. Propane compaines know this, that why they recomend it to you. They make more money off of proane. You must always remeber when talking to a SALESMAN they're are in it for them. not you. I dont sell either Oil or Propane just service the products. Dont be duped by the propane "myth"."

LINK

SAMIAM · 12-24-2010, 11:34 AM

Here's a vote for propane. Clean...doesn't stink like oil. I have a generator and outdoor gas grille all piped from a 500gal tank. Also...the money you think you are saving on oil is gone because you need electric instead of gas appliances in your home.
Switching companies is really not necessary. Let them install their tank and then negotiate a contract every year. We get together with other owners in the area and buy as a group so the prices are always reasonable.
Last but not least......most propane comes from right here in the good ol' USA you aren't giving your money to some middle eastern potentate

ITD · 12-24-2010, 10:21 PM

Purely an economic decision for me, oil is about $3.00 a gallon around here, propane is about the same. More heat out of oil per gallon makes it cheaper. Cheapest energy source wins for me. If there were natural gas in the street, that is cheapest now and would be my choice.

songkrai · 12-26-2010, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

Purely an economic decision for me, oil is about $3.00 a gallon around here, propane is about the same. More heat out of oil per gallon makes it cheaper. Cheapest energy source wins for me. If there were natural gas in the street, that is cheapest now and would be my choice.

I have to agree.

I am not an expert on geothermal. I do have two friends who have technical backgrounds and both built or are planning to build a home here. Both looked into geothermal. In theory it is great. But here with this climate other means of heat were chosen.

As I have stated before. Me, if I was to build a new home here I would put in some redundant heating systems. Oil would be my primary source. Whether hot air or hot water is a matter of choice. Some don't like hot air moving around as too dry but a humidifier built in can solve that. Some people promote floor radiant heat as the bestest. Me, the less plumbing pipes I have to worry about the better.

I would also put in electric heat as a back up. If the furnace quits and needs repairs then there is electric heat in every room. Some scream at me for this concept as they think that electric heat is too expensive to use. They miss my point. Electric is a back up heat source. And the cost of installation of this is not that great in the overall scheme of things.

Others swear by the Monitor type heaters as a backup. These are great. But you would need a 2nd Kerosene tank in basement. While others state that a good wood stove is a great back up.

Everything but the wood stove requires electricity to run. So a good wood stove in basement or first floor is a good idea. Some wall propane heaters do not require electricity.

But if starting from scratch take some money and put this into an automatic on generator. Then you have to choose which type of fuel to use for this generator. A good generator will keep the well pump running as well as any furnace that requires electricity.

Many have to put in a fireplace for aesthetics. Some put in a gas fireplace with no heatilator which I find amazing. But the fireplace is just for aesthetics. Use that money for a good wood stove.

Again all of this costs money. Best to ask around and obtain as many opinions as possible.

11-15-2010, 08:57 PM	#1
kimdaved Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Geothermal heat We currently have a seasonal cottage that we are in the process of designing a new 4 season home. Cottage is about 90 years old and it's time for a major renovation/rebuild. Does anybody have any experience using GEOTHERMAL HEATING System? The property is located on the water. Does this create any issues?

11-16-2010, 05:02 AM	#2
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,512 Thanks: 3,118 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	Air Source Heating I have extensive research on various heating methods for this area. I decided to go with the Air source HVAC system. You will find info on this at Energysavers in Belmont NH. On Rte 3. Worst case is forced air. You lose 50% of your heat in the duct work and intitial heating. Next best is forced hot water. If you go this route look into propane or if you have access to it natural gas. The futures are trading must better than oil. Open air source is very efficient down to 20 degrees. I am told there the new ones are down to 0 degrees. For heat monitoring/backup, I have chosen propane stove for each room. Stargazer in Gilford next to Lowes have the best price and service. Geothermal is the best. However payback is a long way down the road. Even with tax incentives. You still need backup. Talk to PSNH about the Energy Star program for your home. It will save you more money and allow for a tax break on the home. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

11-16-2010, 05:27 AM	#3
Belmont Resident Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Belmont NH but prefer Jackman Maine Posts: 1,857 Thanks: 491 Thanked 409 Times in 251 Posts	Works great I worked on a new house that went the geothermal route about 3-4 years ago. He loves it to this day. There are some drawbacks but they can be discussed with a rep. I believe he averages about $1100 a year; this includes heat, AC and hot water for a 7000sqft home. Yes there are or were significant tax incentives in NH for Geo as well as banks being more willing to lend due to the return on your investment. About 8 years is what he figured it to be. As for backup he has none and I see no reason to have one unless I'm missing something. Maybe a generator for power loss but a backup heat source?

11-16-2010, 08:12 AM	#4
tummyman Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 780 Thanks: 233 Thanked 631 Times in 228 Posts	Geothermal for FHW ?? Would love Geo, but have Forced Hot Water heat and no way to run ducts for hot air/air conditioning(which we do not need). Has anyone EVER found geothermal can work for forced hot water? I am told that the issue is the water temp cannot get to the 180 +/- degrees, but maybe newer technology has made headway in this area. If it can be used, I would definitely invest in a system. Would like to hear any thoughts....

11-16-2010, 04:35 PM	#7
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,512 Thanks: 3,118 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	PSNH Consultation PSNH will give you unbiased consultation in HVAC matters. Free of charge. Give them a call. A PSNH consultant went over the house to determine the best way to insulate the home for energy star rating. He will even recomend insulation contractors and inspect their work. He will also give you guidelines as the best method to heat and or cool your home for this climate. Its a great service that I would recomend for anyone who wants local experience and opinion. No. I do not work for PSNH. I am a very satified client. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

11-16-2010, 08:16 AM	#5
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,411 Thanks: 720 Thanked 1,381 Times in 957 Posts	I wish we could find out the true story about geothermal. We recently checked it out and NOBODY encouraged us to put it in. It seems it is expensive to put in and VERY expensive to maintain. We were told that it doesn't work that well. We were also told about people that took it out. So we just gave up. Maybe someday it will be perfected as will solar but until then we just have to stick with oil.

11-16-2010, 09:26 AM	#6
DickR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 735 Thanks: 4 Thanked 254 Times in 166 Posts	It's hard to believe all the disinformation in some of the posts so far in this thread. "Worst case is forced air. You lose 50% of your heat in the duct work and intitial heating." This statement makes no sense unless you run ductwork in an unheated crawl space or unconditioned attic, without insulation around the ductwork, and without the duct joints completely sealed. All of that represents a poorly designed and installed forced warm air system, something totally unacceptable for a new home. If all your ductwork is within the conditioned envelope of the house, none is "lost". "You still need backup." A GSHP (ground source heat pump, aka "geothermal") doesn't need a backup system anymore than any other type of heating system. Can it break and need service? Of course, as can any other type of system. "It seems it is expensive to put in and VERY expensive to maintain. We were told that it doesn't work that well." Installation costs vary widely. There is no "typical," just as there is no "typical" location (part of country, terrain, rural vs. suburban, etc). For a new rural house in the northeast, properly designed to be very thermally efficient, if a well must be drilled for water anyway, then installation cost may not cost much more than a fuel-fired heating system. Maintenance of a GSHP typically is less than for a fuel-fired system. Like a refrigerator, it just sits there and runs for years. If distribution is by warm air, then filters need changing periodically. Kimdaved, the first part of your house design should focus on making it very, very thermally efficient, possibly in the superinsulated class. That costs perhaps 5% more than conventional construction. We're only talking about the outer shell, mind you. Once you have a good shell designed, then think about how to heat the place. Having a very low heat demand makes GSHP that much more attractive, as the system is that much smaller. Warm air for distribution of the heat is convenient, efficient, and lets you reverse the heat flow to give you A/C in the hot, humid parts of the summer. There are a number of good websites out there on GSHP. Do your research well, and don't rely on heresay. Our situation is like yours, although we are further along. Old cottage, new house design. But ours is nearing completion. Yes, it is a superinsulated design, and the heat source will be GSHP. The well had to be drilled much deeper than the heat pump needs for the expected load, so the drilling part was essentially "free."

The Following User Says Thank You to DickR For This Useful Post:
acanthus (11-23-2010)

11-17-2010, 06:02 PM	#8
ACutAbove Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Holderness Posts: 219 Thanks: 7 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	I installed a well system last yr for a client of mine at his waterfront home almost 7000 sq ft. It was a retrofit from his original oil burning system ( which we left in place for the hot water and as a back up system) Also in order to get the rebate from the CO OP you are required at that time to have a back up system. I will not go into numbers on the forum as to cost or actual savings with the system, but the pay back worked out to be about 7-8 yrs if I remember right. We also heat the indoor pool off the same system and the hot tub. The system works awesome weather it is heating in the winter or cooling in the summer. We used all quality components a have not had a problem with any of them as of now. We also did a loop system at another house where we dug big pits and buried about 400 ft of 1 inch coils in the ground and do the heat transfer useing that method. You need to have a good amount of land to be able to do that type of system and on the water front there usually isnt enough. If you would like to message me I would be happy to give you some info andpossiably answer some questions for you.

11-17-2010, 07:38 PM	#9
Comptonbuilder Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Good Evening My name is Scott Compton, I am a General Contractor, I use a company called AmericanAir. They are located in Madison, NH. They do alot of Geothermol heat jobs. The person you need to contact is John, his number is 603-455-4616. On a different note, if you are entertaining bids for your project I would be more than happy to provide one for you. I can be reached at my home office 603-279-1029 or my cell phone 603-234-1277.

12-18-2010, 01:40 PM	#10
songkrai Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 725 Thanks: 35 Thanked 145 Times in 98 Posts	As I have stated in other posts. I would skip propane. Investigate how many BTU's come from a unit of fuel. With propane you are stuck with one company - the one that provides the tank. You can purchase a tank but they are expensive and no one really does this. And every time you switch propane companies - they trample thru your home and record every serial number of every appliance. Too mush hassle. With oil you can pick any company. And as I have previously stated build in some redundant heating. Oil and electric. A wood stove is good. Monitor keresene heaters provide great heat. Probably a good idea to check into an automatic generator while you at thinking about all of this.

12-20-2010, 08:24 PM	#12
songkrai Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 725 Thanks: 35 Thanked 145 Times in 98 Posts	I too own my own propane tanks. And yes, I can switch companies at will. But each company still must come inside and record every gas appliance. So switching is a tad more complicated then oil. Most people do not own their own propane tanks so they are stuck with the one company that provided the propane tank. They can switch companies but that requires the removal of the tank and another tank put in its place. And the trampling thru the house each time. And a heavy truck driving across their property. And if any water/septic pipes, electrical wiring is underground - the potential of breakage can become an issue. These are heavy trucks delivering propane trucks. Owning the propane tank is a good idea. But most people do not want to fork over that large amount of money. Here is this quotation from another source: "I am an Oil Heat and Propane Technician in Southern Maine. To me there is no comparison betwen Oil and Propane costs, Oil is much cheaper. You need to burn 1.42 gallons of propane to equal the heat recieved from one gallon of heating oil. The appliances usually run with in 5-10% of each other as far as efficency. Think of this way if you burn 1000 gallons of Oil a year, you'll need 1400 gallons of propane. Call you local retailer and ask then for the cash price of each. Do the math. Propane compaines know this, that why they recomend it to you. They make more money off of proane. You must always remeber when talking to a SALESMAN they're are in it for them. not you. I dont sell either Oil or Propane just service the products. Dont be duped by the propane "myth"." LINK

12-24-2010, 11:34 AM	#13
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,837 Thanks: 326 Thanked 1,626 Times in 562 Posts	Here's a vote for propane. Clean...doesn't stink like oil. I have a generator and outdoor gas grille all piped from a 500gal tank. Also...the money you think you are saving on oil is gone because you need electric instead of gas appliances in your home. Switching companies is really not necessary. Let them install their tank and then negotiate a contract every year. We get together with other owners in the area and buy as a group so the prices are always reasonable. Last but not least......most propane comes from right here in the good ol' USA you aren't giving your money to some middle eastern potentate

12-24-2010, 10:21 PM	#14
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	Purely an economic decision for me, oil is about $3.00 a gallon around here, propane is about the same. More heat out of oil per gallon makes it cheaper. Cheapest energy source wins for me. If there were natural gas in the street, that is cheapest now and would be my choice.