Engine problems, here we go again !

[bigdog]

Having engine problems (again).....

I'm honestly thinking, that maybe I'm not suppose to ever have a boat, seems like engine issues, have followed me from boat to boat.....
This is my 4th boat in 15 yrs, and last two boats have given me problems.....
Both last 2 boats came from salt-water, keep that in mind......

Anyway, new boat 2000 18' Angler CC, and 2000 90hp 2-stroke Johnson giving me issues, actually only the engine.

The boat itself is a sweet boat, and handle Winnie waters, like a dream. The engine however, has given me issues.

First time I took current boat on inaugural launch it ran fine at dock for about 10 min, then another 10-15 at half-throttle cruising.... It was quiet smooth, and purred w/o any issues, sounded like a new motor ! At about this time, the engine started to cough , sputter, and then stalled. Had to be towed back to dock.

Thinking it was fuel related, I changed fuel filter, added fresh gas (89 Octane), with some 'Seafoam', and went out second time. Decided to run at dock for 10-15 min, no issues....Started to cruise at about half-throttle again, and after 10 min, same scenario as before, engine coughing, sputter, then stalled. You could almost set your clock, when to expect the engine to die !

Towed back to dock again. Thank God for BOAT US 'unlimited towing' for $58 annual policy! One saving grace, I was alone this time when the engine quit ! The FAM was not involved TG !

Anyway, this story is getting old, and now it's mid July and I want to enjoy the boat for the rest of the season.

I had this exact same scenario on previous boat I purchased, however was a 4.3L Merc, and coincidently that boat also came from salt-water. The issue with that engine was the 'coil', a $35 part, I replaced myself, and I was back on the water 'trouble-free' from then on, ran like a top! The coil was heating up, and after 15 min or so, it must have been shorting out. I suspect the internal parts had some corrosion from salt-water use over the years..... Obviously, I couldn’t see the inside of the coil, but the new coil replacement solved the problem.....

Do Forum folks think that my current issue with 90hp Johnson could be experiencing the same problem? Just seems so coincidental......

If it's again my coil, how easy is it to change-out, on an outboard?

Thanks for your feedback.

Bigdog

[HellRaZoR004]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Having engine problems (again).....

I'm honestly thinking, that maybe I'm not suppose to ever have a boat, seems like engine issues, have followed me from boat to boat.....
This is my 4th boat in 15 yrs, and last two boats have given me problems.....
Both last 2 boats came from salt-water, keep that in mind......

Anyway, new boat 2000 18' Angler CC, and 2000 90hp 2-stroke Johnson giving me issues, actually only the engine.

The boat itself is a sweet boat, and handle Winnie waters, like a dream. The engine however, has given me issues.

First time I took current boat on inaugural launch it ran fine at dock for about 10 min, then another 10-15 at half-throttle cruising.... It was quiet smooth, and purred w/o any issues, sounded like a new motor ! At about this time, the engine started to cough , sputter, and then stalled. Had to be towed back to dock.

Thinking it was fuel related, I changed fuel filter, added fresh gas (89 Octane), with some 'Seafoam', and went out second time. Decided to run at dock for 10-15 min, no issues....Started to cruise at about half-throttle again, and after 10 min, same scenario as before, engine coughing, sputter, then stalled. You could almost set your clock, when to expect the engine to die !

Towed back to dock again. Thank God for BOAT US 'unlimited towing' for $58 annual policy! One saving grace, I was alone this time when the engine quit ! The FAM was not involved TG !

Anyway, this story is getting old, and now it's mid July and I want to enjoy the boat for the rest of the season.

I had this exact same scenario on previous boat I purchased, however was a 4.3L Merc, and coincidently that boat also came from salt-water. The issue with that engine was the 'coil', a $35 part, I replaced myself, and I was back on the water 'trouble-free' from then on, ran like a top! The coil was heating up, and after 15 min or so, it must have been shorting out. I suspect the internal parts had some corrosion from salt-water use over the years..... Obviously, I couldn’t see the inside of the coil, but the new coil replacement solved the problem.....

Do Forum folks think that my current issue with 90hp Johnson could be experiencing the same problem? Just seems so coincidental......

If it's again my coil, how easy is it to change-out, on an outboard?

Thanks for your feedback.

Bigdog

Sorry I can't help much but it does sound like you have an overheating problem. Good luck and let us know how it ends up.

[GM doc]

I can remember doing repairs with my father years ago, HE tought me stuff that holds true today. THAT has saved ME alot of money. Boat engines are "simple".

[P-3 Guy]

Here's a recent thread with a similar sounding issue. Maybe it will be helpful for you.

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ad.php?t=14343

[ITD]

Make sure your gas tank vent is open/not plugged up. If it happens again, try loosening the gas cap. Sounds like a fuel starvation issue, might be dirt, could be the gas tank building a vacuum because the vent isn't working. Could be a fuel line or pump problem. good luck.

[bclaker]

Propane outboard motors by Lehr

http://www.iboats.com/Lehr-Propane-O...outboard_Exact

[NoBozo]

OMC, (Johnson, Evinrude) had some Real problems with this system and pretty much did OMC in. NB

http://www.wmi.org/bassfish/bassboar...sage_id=186114

[Dave R]

Try running it on an external tank to rule out fuel.

The coil is easy to change on that motor. It's right on the back

[bigdog]

NoBozo: It's not a FITCH Johnson (not fuel injected, has carbs).

DaveR, thanks for your recommendations....
FYI, after towed to dock, engine would 'turn-over' OK, but not start. I will try external tank to rule out, but would have to run at
least 15 minutes at half-throttle to rule out gas issue to simulate current behaviour senario.
Also, you indicated the coil was on the back of engine... I don't have Service Manual available, is it behind the black cover per
chance ? Sounds like if the coild has to be reaplced, the hard part, will be locating one, w/o a special order from marina.
Parts like this, I'd rather oder through a marina than mail-order, in case wrong part is ordered or received

As always, thanks for everyone's feedback, greatly apprecaited !

Bigdog

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by bigdog

NoBozo: It's not a FITCH Johnson (not fuel injected, has carbs).

DaveR, thanks for your recommendations....
FYI, after towed to dock, engine would 'turn-over' OK, but not start. I will try external tank to rule out, but would have to run at
least 15 minutes at half-throttle to rule out gas issue to simulate current behaviour senario.
Also, you indicated the coil was on the back of engine... I don't have Service Manual available, is it behind the black cover per
chance ? Sounds like if the coild has to be reaplced, the hard part, will be locating one, w/o a special order from marina.
Parts like this, I'd rather oder through a marina than mail-order, in case wrong part is ordered or received

As always, thanks for everyone's feedback, greatly apprecaited !

Bigdog

IIRC, the coils and the power pack (ignition module) are all on the back and I'm reasonably certain the black cover has to come off to check them. If it is turning over and not starting, check for spark on all 4 cylinders first. The power packs on those do eventually fail and your might be dead if all 4 plugs are not firing. I know of no way to test the power pack itself, you basically have to eliminate the generator coils (you need a peak holding DVM like a Fluke 87), and the optical sensor (you need an oscilloscope) CDI makes a power pack for that motor that costs less than the OEM and it's probably more reliable.

[songkrai]

Read up on ETHANOL in gasoline.

[bigdog]

Some feedback to the Forum...

I contacted Angler Boat factory in Miami.......
to ask questions regarding the fuel tank, and I could not find access to the tank to check the anti-siphon and pickup valves...

My Angler 18' CC does not have an anti-siphon valve in the tank, I do however, have the 'pick-up' valve. A.S. valves were only installed on models which had I/O configurations, not outboard models. That said, eliminates the A.S. valve possibility causing the gas starvation problem. However,
the 'pick-up' valve may still be a concern.

Now the bad news...... To access the gas tank where the 'pick-up' valve and gas hoses are contained, are under a panel where the Caption and Mate chairs sit upon. This means I have to remove that entire panel, chairs and all.
To do this I may have to toil forward the Center Console structure? TBD?

Anyway, the Factory Rep. indicated the fuel tank pick-up valve, wither has a metal mesh or nylon type sock on end, which could be plugged with crud as a result of ethanol. He also stated, that he has had customers complaining about my same issues, which were not related to 'pick-up' valve, but was found to be related to a rubber 'diaphragm', located in the outboard motor.
He suggested checking that 'diaphragm' first, as they tend to break-down, as a result of the ethanol fuel. HE said that this was easy to inspect, which I will try to do.

Factory Rep also suggested the same test, which DaveR form Forum suggested, 'attaching an auxiliary fuel tank to engine', to eliminate the gas tank, fuel filter, pick-valve possibilities.

Will check the fuel-pump diaphragm first, then do Aux. fuel tank next test.
To check the pick-up valve, but pulling up the entire deck at this point is a lot of work, which may not need to be done at this time.

Just FMI, what are Forum thoughts about the fuel pump ''diaphragm' theory?
Again, this is a Johnson 2000 90 hp 2-Storke, which has seen salt-water use !

Will report back with results.

Bigdog

[MAXUM]

I'll tell ya before getting yourself involved in a huge project, have you isolated what the problem is when you're in a failed (not running) state? Easy enough to quickly determine. You need spark, fuel and compression. Check all three, although I would venture a guess your compression is probably fine. It's expensive and time consuming to throw parts like darts at a symptom, and let's face it what you describe could be caused by a number of issues that could be both fuel or spark related. What I did when I had a similar problem with my boat was to take it out, bring some tools with you and a chase boat. When the thing conks out, determine what your lacking and go from there.

I would based on what you describe be more inclined to think you're dealing with an ignition/electrical problem but that's pure speculation. Since you've stated the boat has seen salt water simple connector corrosion could be the culprit.

Fuel delivery problems usually occur at any operating temperature and symptoms get worse as the engine is asked to run faster. FYI - with a two stroke a fuel starvation condition is bad, leaning out a two stroke to much for a period of operation, especially at operating speed can do damage to the engine leading to scoring of the cylinders and possibly lead to seizure even if it's got an oil injection system.

[NoBozo]

Originally Posted by bigdog

Some feedback to the Forum...

I contacted Angler Boat factory in Miami.......
to ask questions regarding the fuel tank, and I could not find access to the tank to check the anti-siphon and pickup valves...

My Angler 18' CC does not have an anti-siphon valve in the tank, I do however, have the 'pick-up' valve. A.S. valves were only installed on models which had I/O configurations, not outboard models. That said, eliminates the A.S. valve possibility causing the gas starvation problem. However,
the 'pick-up' valve may still be a concern.

Now the bad news...... To access the gas tank where the 'pick-up' valve and gas hoses are contained, are under a panel where the Caption and Mate chairs sit upon. This means I have to remove that entire panel, chairs and all.
To do this I may have to toil forward the Center Console structure? TBD?

Anyway, the Factory Rep. indicated the fuel tank pick-up valve, wither has a metal mesh or nylon type sock on end, which could be plugged with crud as a result of ethanol. He also stated, that he has had customers complaining about my same issues, which were not related to 'pick-up' valve, but was found to be related to a rubber 'diaphragm', located in the outboard motor.
He suggested checking that 'diaphragm' first, as they tend to break-down, as a result of the ethanol fuel. HE said that this was easy to inspect, which I will try to do.

Factory Rep also suggested the same test, which DaveR form Forum suggested, 'attaching an auxiliary fuel tank to engine', to eliminate the gas tank, fuel filter, pick-valve possibilities.

Will check the fuel-pump diaphragm first, then do Aux. fuel tank next test.
To check the pick-up valve, but pulling up the entire deck at this point is a lot of work, which may not need to be done at this time.

Just FMI, what are Forum thoughts about the fuel pump ''diaphragm' theory?
Again, this is a Johnson 2000 90 hp 2-Storke, which has seen salt-water use !

Will report back with results.

Bigdog

FIRST: Salt water use is irrelevant. Depending on the fuel pump diaphram material....THAT could be affected by Ethonal. (ie. it could Swell Up and/or turn to mush) Hook up a portable 6 gallon gas tank first. Borrow one from somebody with an OMC tank. Different Mfgs have different hose connectors. If it won't run on the portable, then check the fuel pump diaphram

If the problem "Seems" to be in your built in gas tank pickup..Forget IT. Removing the deck to get to it will NOT be worth the trouble or expense. Buy an OMC portable and use that from now on NB

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

FIRST: Salt water use is irrelevant. Depending on the fuel pump diaphram material....THAT could be affected by Ethonal. (ie. it could Swell Up and/or turn to mush) Hook up a portable 6 gallon gas tank first. Borrow one from somebody with an OMC tank. Different Mfgs have different hose connectors. If it won't run on the portable, then check the fuel pump diaphram

If the problem "Seems" to be in your built in gas tank pickup..Forget IT. Removing the deck to get to it will NOT be worth the trouble or expense. Buy an OMC portable and use that from now on NB

Saltwater/Ocean use is relivant if your dealing with electrical problems and corrosion. I have yet to see a boat that has seen salt water and not suffered from it, how well it's cared for determines how quickly it progresses. Corroded connections can cause intermittent and run time problems.

While there is no question Ethanol causes fuel system, and sometimes delivery problems, read the inital description of the problem. Engine runs fine at dock for 10 minutes and 10-15 at 1/2 throttle before crapping out. Based on that description if it really were a problem in the tank, or even the pump diaphram that engine would not run as long or as "good" as described. If you got a bad diaphram it'll run like dog doo warm or cold. If the pickup was bad or even plugged again you'd be starved of fuel well before it ran for 15 minutes at 1/2 throttle. Again just observation based on the description of the problem. Isolating the fuel system certainly works, but I'd go back to get the thing in a failed state and figure out what's lacking and go from there.