Go Back   Winnipesaukee Forum > Winnipesaukee Forums > Home, Cottage or Land Maintenance
Home Forums Gallery Webcams Blogs YouTube Channel Classifieds Calendar Register FAQDonate Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-13-2019, 08:45 AM   #1
TheTimeTraveler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 816
Thanks: 256
Thanked 259 Times in 157 Posts
Default New Building Lot with Stream Running Through it.

So I am looking at a building lot that has a stream running right through the middle of it.

Does someone know if I can legally keep the stream, but move it 70 feet away to a nearby perimeter lot line? Obviously moving it will allow me a larger building envelope footprint.

I know wetlands can be moved if they can be replicated elsewhere on a property, but I was unsure about a seasonal stream.

Anyone out there in Forum land have any knowledge about this type of situation?
TheTimeTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2019, 10:09 AM   #2
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 3,986
Thanks: 1,200
Thanked 1,492 Times in 970 Posts
Default surveyed?

Usually developers doing a subdivision try to put lot lines close to brooks, instead of in the middle of the lot. There may be drainage issues that drove the surveyor to do the layout in a particular way. Is there a drainage easement? How is it described in the deed?
You might find someone from the NH Association of Natural Resource Scientists who can help you. Members are listed on their website http://nhanrs.org
Descant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2019, 10:50 AM   #3
Onshore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 500
Thanks: 12
Thanked 400 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler View Post
So I am looking at a building lot that has a stream running right through the middle of it.

Does someone know if I can legally keep the stream, but move it 70 feet away to a nearby perimeter lot line? Obviously moving it will allow me a larger building envelope footprint.

I know wetlands can be moved if they can be replicated elsewhere on a property, but I was unsure about a seasonal stream.

Anyone out there in Forum land have any knowledge about this type of situation?
Relocating the stream will require a Wetland Permit from NHDES. This is not something that is typically approved, especially if the stream is a perennial stream.
Onshore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2019, 05:53 PM   #4
Hillcountry
Senior Member
 
Hillcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: In the hills
Posts: 2,338
Thanks: 1,566
Thanked 761 Times in 456 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shore things View Post
Relocating the stream will require a Wetland Permit from NHDES. This is not something that is typically approved, especially if the stream is a perennial stream.
Shore things, can you divert, dam or otherwise tamper with a stream that is only a runoff/drainage stream? This is not near a lake but the drainage eventually empties into a beaver pond.
Hillcountry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2019, 06:13 PM   #5
Pineedles
Senior Member
 
Pineedles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Moultonborough & CT
Posts: 2,534
Thanks: 1,058
Thanked 652 Times in 363 Posts
Default

Why divert it? Build over it with a lexan floor over the stream. It’s been done!


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
Pineedles is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Pineedles For This Useful Post:
Hillcountry (08-16-2019)
Sponsored Links
Old 08-13-2019, 06:37 PM   #6
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,937
Thanks: 531
Thanked 568 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler View Post
So I am looking at a building lot that has a stream running right through the middle of it.

Does someone know if I can legally keep the stream, but move it 70 feet away to a nearby perimeter lot line? Obviously moving it will allow me a larger building envelope footprint.

I know wetlands can be moved if they can be replicated elsewhere on a property, but I was unsure about a seasonal stream.

Anyone out there in Forum land have any knowledge about this type of situation?
No idea.

Why don't you jump ahead 10 years into the future and see how it went?
__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to brk-lnt For This Useful Post:
kawishiwi (08-13-2019), TheRoBoat (08-13-2019)
Old 08-13-2019, 08:59 PM   #7
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 3,986
Thanks: 1,200
Thanked 1,492 Times in 970 Posts
Default development density?

Frank Lloyd Wright built his famous "Falling Waters" over a stream. In the 19th century mills, etc were built on the side of a river. Now DES knows better and you can't build next to moving water. In Florida, you can dredge almost anyplace, throw the spoil onto the shore to make building lots, add concrete sea walls and you've got "new" land.
This whole thing is crazy.
"You can't build that anymore", but the placers built 100 years ago used 300 feet of frontage where new regulations forced building to 100' of frontage and more intense use. Yes, you don't have to be (as) rich, but the intensity of shorefront development is a lot different. Rich, (big shorefront) vs, only a little less rich, and have smaller frontage, with more intense development. Hmmm.
Descant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2019, 10:03 AM   #8
CaptT820
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 122
Thanks: 86
Thanked 46 Times in 27 Posts
Default Permit

You CAN do it if DES will approve it. Your reasoning for moving a wetland of any kind is typically the main consideration. In this case if the reason is simply for inconvenience of building, they will not let you move it. Even if they did let you move it, it is prohibitively expensive. It is typically $1 million per acre to move wetlands (or ~$23 a square foot). Again assuming they’ll even approve it.
CaptT820 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2019, 08:26 AM   #9
Onshore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 500
Thanks: 12
Thanked 400 Times in 143 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillcountry View Post
Shore things, can you divert, dam or otherwise tamper with a stream that is only a runoff/drainage stream? This is not near a lake but the drainage eventually empties into a beaver pond.
Surface run-off is generally not considered to be within Wetlands jurisdiction. Once there is enough natural concentrated flow to incise a channel then it begins to become a watercourse that would be considered jurisdictional, whether there is water visible in the channel year round or not. Roadside and other manmade conveyance structures are not considered jurisdictional unless they were dug into a jurisdictional wetland or they intercept a natural stream at that point they do become part of wetlands jurisdiction.
Onshore is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Onshore For This Useful Post:
Hillcountry (08-15-2019)
Old 08-16-2019, 07:51 AM   #10
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro
Posts: 5,779
Thanks: 2,074
Thanked 733 Times in 528 Posts
Lightbulb Check the Existing Survey...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler View Post
So I am looking at a building lot that has a stream running right through the middle of it. Does someone know if I can legally keep the stream, but move it 70 feet away to a nearby perimeter lot line? Obviously moving it will allow me a larger building envelope footprint.
I know wetlands can be moved if they can be replicated elsewhere on a property, but I was unsure about a seasonal stream.
Anyone out there in Forum land have any knowledge about this type of situation?

Take a look uphill: If there are spans of irrigated green lawn, chances are very good that you'll have the same (or worse) runoff experience.

Next door, my neighbor had a concern whether their abutting lot could be sold as a building lot. Their new survey showed a very wet lot, and the surveyor had written a note on it, recommending against building on it. That neighbor provided a copy of the survey to me—which I still have—before the lot was sold.

As it turned out, a builder came in, dumped tons of fill, and diverted the existing "babbling brook" to our side of their lot. Where we once had no view of our neighbors, the new owners built to the maximum height, so there's three stories of night-time lighting. The other side of their lot has a shared driveway that washes out every summer. Some of the hill's moisture oozes under the house, and pools-up in the yard facing the lake. Why it produces a red stain, I don't know. There was a buried commercial aviation gasoline tank uphill (serving the airport) at one time. The pre-existing septic system and leach field was filled in and a new system, shared with the neighbor, was installed.

Aside from the negatives of putting the porch facing our porch—renting-out all summer—the babbling brook turns to mud in summer and has doubled in size.

The brook, which is still mostly seasonal, soaked the boundary line to the point that at least eight mature trees have been blown over (to angles of ~45°). The trees that survived have struggled to send up new foliage: Although the greenery is welcome, those trees are making the strangest of privacy fences.

.
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 10:58 AM   #11
MAXUM
Senior Member
 
MAXUM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kuna ID
Posts: 2,755
Thanks: 246
Thanked 1,942 Times in 802 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
TSome of the hill's moisture oozes under the house, and pools-up in the yard facing the lake. Why it produces a red stain, I don't know.
That could simply be that there is a high concentration of naturally occurring iron in the bedrock. This is common place in NH.

My well water in Hooksett has very high iron content and stains everything if used untreated. My sediment filter which is the first in line from my well pump output into the house turns red and catches a rusty colored sediment similar to mud. Kinda gross but hey it's what comes out of the ground!
MAXUM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 12:15 PM   #12
Biggd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Waltham Ma./Meredith NH
Posts: 3,729
Thanks: 1,941
Thanked 1,065 Times in 672 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler View Post
So I am looking at a building lot that has a stream running right through the middle of it.

Does someone know if I can legally keep the stream, but move it 70 feet away to a nearby perimeter lot line? Obviously moving it will allow me a larger building envelope footprint.

I know wetlands can be moved if they can be replicated elsewhere on a property, but I was unsure about a seasonal stream.

Anyone out there in Forum land have any knowledge about this type of situation?
If you haven't bought this lot yet, I would keep looking!
Trying to move a stream legally is like finding an old Indian arrow head and reporting to the news media.
Biggd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 01:03 PM   #13
Hillcountry
Senior Member
 
Hillcountry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: In the hills
Posts: 2,338
Thanks: 1,566
Thanked 761 Times in 456 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineedles View Post
Why divert it? Build over it with a lexan floor over the stream. It’s been done!


Sent from my iPad using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
I like this idea....and stock it with brook trout and fish from your living room!
Hillcountry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 03:11 PM   #14
camp guy
Senior Member
 
camp guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro
Posts: 1,128
Thanks: 284
Thanked 480 Times in 271 Posts
Default Lot with a stream...

A wise person, maybe Yogi Berra, maybe Confucius, maybe Father Time, once said, "It is not nice to fool Mother Nature", and I think this applies in this case (it will come back to bite you).
camp guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 03:26 PM   #15
Outdoorsman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 815
Thanks: 113
Thanked 193 Times in 126 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by camp guy View Post
A wise person, maybe Yogi Berra, maybe Confucius, maybe Father Time, once said, "It is not nice to fool Mother Nature", and I think this applies in this case (it will come back to bite you).
It was Dena Dietrich in her Chiffon margarine commercial.
Outdoorsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2019, 08:27 PM   #16
FlyingScot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Tuftonboro and Sudbury, MA
Posts: 2,208
Thanks: 1,106
Thanked 934 Times in 576 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by camp guy View Post
A wise person, maybe Yogi Berra, maybe Confucius, maybe Father Time, once said, "It is not nice to fool Mother Nature", and I think this applies in this case (it will come back to bite you).
I don't think the philosopher you have in mind is quite at the Yogi Berra level
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijVijP-CDVI
FlyingScot is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to FlyingScot For This Useful Post:
camp guy (08-17-2019)
Old 08-16-2019, 08:49 PM   #17
Marty
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Nailing down the definition

Is it really a "seasonal stream" - what it actually is by the states definition will lead you to the answer. Seasonal run-off is not a "stream". Does the stream have a name?

After answering the questions truthfully - yes wetlands can be managed but you are not going to be allowed to change the exit point of a water flow or stop the water flow. Not to be confused with storm water retention ponds.

:-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler View Post
So I am looking at a building lot that has a stream running right through the middle of it.

Does someone know if I can legally keep the stream, but move it 70 feet away to a nearby perimeter lot line? Obviously moving it will allow me a larger building envelope footprint.

I know wetlands can be moved if they can be replicated elsewhere on a property, but I was unsure about a seasonal stream.

Anyone out there in Forum land have any knowledge about this type of situation?
Marty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2019, 03:16 AM   #18
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro
Posts: 5,779
Thanks: 2,074
Thanked 733 Times in 528 Posts
Question Lakefront?

Something I forgot to ask:

Is the lot shorefront--to a lake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
That could simply be that there is a high concentration of naturally occurring iron in the bedrock. This is common place in NH.

My well water in Hooksett has very high iron content and stains everything if used untreated. My sediment filter which is the first in line from my well pump output into the house turns red and catches a rusty colored sediment similar to mud. Kinda gross but hey it's what comes out of the ground!
This red is "Kool-Aid red".
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2019, 08:29 AM   #19
TheProfessor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,062
Thanks: 17
Thanked 325 Times in 198 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler View Post
So I am looking at a building lot that has a stream running right through the middle of it.

Does someone know if I can legally keep the stream, but move it 70 feet away to a nearby perimeter lot line? Obviously moving it will allow me a larger building envelope footprint.

I know wetlands can be moved if they can be replicated elsewhere on a property, but I was unsure about a seasonal stream.

Anyone out there in Forum land have any knowledge about this type of situation?
Ask the seller to move the river.

If the river makes the lot unbuildable - then time to find another lot.
TheProfessor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

This page was generated in 0.36129 seconds