Heating options...

[Argie's Wife]

Long story short: We were unable to pre-buy oil this year and now I'm running scared about how we're going to get through the heating season without loosing our shirt. Hubby is a teacher and is on his second year with no contract . The cost of living has certainly gone up - income has not...

So...

I'm posting here, hoping that some of you with loads of Yankee ingenuity can help me with some advice...

What secondary affordable heating options do you recommend?

Our home is about 2200 sq ft - I don't need to heat the whole thing - we're only upstairs to sleep, really. We currently heat it with a No. 2 heating oil furnace (baseboard heat).

(Keep in mind we have young children, pets, etc - woodstoves concern and worry me... but I would consider them... )

Thanks for your input...

[fpartri497]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

Long story short: We were unable to pre-buy oil this year and now I'm running scared about how we're going to get through the heating season without loosing our shirt. Hubby is a teacher and is on his second year with no contract . The cost of living has certainly gone up - income has not...

So...

I'm posting here, hoping that some of you with loads of Yankee ingenuity can help me with some advice...

What secondary affordable heating options do you recommend?

Our home is about 2200 sq ft - I don't need to heat the whole thing - we're only upstairs to sleep, really. We currently heat it with a No. 2 heating oil furnace (baseboard heat).

(Keep in mind we have young children, pets, etc - woodstoves concern and worry me... but I would consider them... )

Thanks for your input...

I too heat with # 2 oil that has now gone over the $3.00 gal mark so today I went and bought a propane gas fireplace Insert. I was told by the local gas co. that propane Is now $3.86 a gal. I bought more for the additonal comfort since the Inset needs no electricty to heat. We allways are losing the electricity around here.

fpartri497

[ITD]

That's a tough one, I don't think you will find any other type of heat much cheaper. I would be careful about turning the heat down too low or off in one section because of the possibility of frozen pipes. What I would probably do is invest in some sweaters and electric blankets and keep the heat low during the day and lower at night.


Good Luck and keep warm.

[LIforrelaxin]

Not knowing the layout of your house it is always hard to comment on these things. If you have am unused basement that would facilitate adding a woodstove, I would suggest looking at that as a serious option. It would keep the woodstove away from children and pets. However so often basements are finished and turned into living space that this is not possible. I know many people that have put a woodstove in the basement, and installed a permanent gate at the top of the basement stair well that allows the warm air up but prevents the kids and pets from going down.

Next to that my other recomendation would be looking into preventing heat loss as much as possible. Add an extra layer of insulation in the attic. Check around all window and doors for leaks and seal them as best as possible. And if you are not worried about the look of things and you have any big picture windows I have seen people put ridged foam insulation of those to cut down on heat loss.

To me do to the easiness of the project, I would start with adding a layer of insulation in the attic.

[wifi]

I love my coal stove, $270/ton at Clarks, I have a 1000 sq ft house, use between 2-5 tons/year (5 when it was -20 decades and decades ago!! ). My house is a barely insulated former summer cabin, taxed and regulated to death by the local authorities (and CSPA).... ooops, off the subject.

[fatlazyless]

Installing one of those small Toyo oil-fired heaters would add more in-house living space heat to what you get from the existing baseboard forced hot water heaters. Plus, it would be a source of warm, clean, dry, fast acting, heat. You may fall in love with a little Toyo oil heater. Excellent quality heat, plus a skinny appetite for oil..

Installation requires a 3/8" soft copper oil line tee'd off the existing line, a nearby 110v wall outlet, and cutting a small, maybe 3" diameter hole thru the exterior wall for the, air in-exhaust out, direct vent stainless steel tube.

The little Toyo's have their own built in thermostat and timer. Best of all, they delicately sip expensive #2 heating oil, and create clean-dry-fresh & very warm, hot air heat!

Suggest you try Laconia Oil for an installation quote, plus maybe they'll cut you a deal as your fuel-oil supplier if they do the Toyo install.
...............................................

Warning-Stay away from the Rinnai propane heaters which are vent free, or without a vent. While the Rinnai propane direct vent heaters are excellent, the ventless units make hot air heat that includes a very small but detectable-smelly odor of combusted propane. Rinnai instructs not to use them in a bed room, and to use them in a living room, kitchen, or sun room. However, while the Rinnai vented propane heaters make clean fresh hot air heat, the RINNAI VENTLESS heater operates good BUT makes heat with an ODOR.

I found this out, myself.
.................................................. ...

Some good news here, my Amerigas August propane pre-buy cut my 2007-2008 propane bill from last year's 5.29/gal to this year's 2.39/gal. That's a huge difference!

In aprox 2005, Amerigas-Vermont refused to honor their Vermont pre-buy propane customer's contracts and raised prices anyway. Maybe one year later, they lost a lawsuit and had to pay refunds to a few hundred Vermont propane customers.

So, sometimes a real good pre-buy deal is too good to last.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Argy's Wife

What secondary affordable heating options do you recommend?

Electric blankets only draw 75 watts.

By far, the most raved-about heater in this household is an antique radiant electric heater mounted near the ceiling. (Only 600 watts—and you'll overheat if you sit within 10-feet of it.)

Those hand-knitted woolen lap comforter-thingys you see in the catalogs can be bought at yard sales for a few bucks. After a few minutes of overheating, (because your dog insists on napping on your lap too), you may have to throw them off!

A good time to do baking is at the same time of maximum need for heat! Hobbies that require a kiln, like ceramics and cloisonné, would be welcomed I'd think.

An engineering neighbor ran his clothes-dryer's discharge through a nylon stocking, and ducted the moist heat into the house's interior! (Particulates may be a problem, however).

I use a 40,000 btu "Kero-Sun" kerosene heater to warm up the morning's living spaces, or a small radiant propane attachment that mounts atop one of those $50 tanks. The "Kero-Sun" is extremely efficient—at 99%—and was used in Japan for decades. The New Hampshire legislature banned them from new sales. Unless restrained from tipping over, neither are child-friendly, however.

If yours is an older home, it's most economical to conserve heat, rather than add additional heat. As previously stated, add insulation: if the upstairs can be closed off by a door or plastic tarp, I'd do it.

Infrared film can record your house's worst heat-loss features:



Spectrum in Wolfeboro might be able to help with infrared film—569-4747.

Try those temporary plastic films on the inside of the window frames. They can be stored and re-used. It can be gratifying to see the wind bowing the plastic in, knowing that the cold wind has been barred from entering there!

But even a woodstove isn't a cheap way to heat, unless you cut your own wood.

I got these ideas because I haven't gotten around to insulating my house!

[fatlazyless]

Let me remind everyone that Acres lives in FLORIDA in the winter so it's easy for him to talk about efficiency and insulation. Here in New Hampshire, you can have has much insulation as an elephant but if you ain't got no good source of heat it still feels cold, big time!

Learn to love the NH winter; go with a Toyo oil or Rinnai propane hot air heater as an addition to an existing forced hot water heating system, and start thinking about a little outdoor hot tub.

Wood stoves are terrific, but for most people, they are just a form of recreational heat.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Wood stoves are terrific, but for most people, they are just a form of recreational heat.

Unless you are willing to keep a wood stove stocked and burning all the time FLL has a point here. However I believe it is one of the best ways to go, even if you don't have your own source of wood, as a supplement to a home primary source of heat. Most people I know that use woodstove in this capacity have fairly good luck at reducing there oil costs. And by only using it to supplement the primary heat source you are not prone to going through as much wood, as someone who is buring for primary heat.

People I know that have used this technique, keep there thermostats down around 63 or so (i.e. some where reasonable so that pipes freezing and personal discomfort never become a concern) and when they are at home at night and on the weekends fire up the woodstove and take the chill out of the air. The big note here is to make sure the woodstove is big enough to warm the space you are trying to heat. Nothing worse then having a stove that isn't big enough to meet your heating needs.

I know from experience at my camp that if I get the wood stove going and get it up to temp. and then throw an extra log or two in, that I am able to heat a camp, that has no insulation in the roof, enough to be comfortable even when the night are dipping down into the 30s..... Mind you because I am unwilling to get up at 3 or 4 in the morning and throw a log or two on the fire the mornings are a bit nippy...... Now I know that in the middle of the winter it gets much colder, but my point is simply that with a small amount of wood you can boost the temperature and make things comfortable.

[secondcurve]

What about those pellet stoves? I had one years ago and it was very good. Load up the hopper and I'm pretty sure it will run close to 24 hours without a refill. It sure beats a wood stove!

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

"...I'm running scared about how we're going to get through the heating season without losing our shirt..."

It doesn't sound like you're prepared to spend more on a more-efficient heating system, so I'll add a few more ideas—saying again that conserving heat is still your best bet.

Adding moisture to the interior air makes the house feel warmer at reduced temperatures. I keep a water kettle on "simmer" and one on the wood stove.

If you have evergreens blocking the north wind, that's good: if you have evergreens shading your house from any winter sun, I'd remove them or do some selective trimming.

There is always some heat loss from a water heater. If it's outside of your living areas, consider installing its eventual replacement indoors, making the house gain some heat at no cost. (And a toasty place to store articles away from moisture.)

While not technically a heater, judicious use of a water distiller will throw off 800 watts of heat AND give the family a gallon of distilled water for about 25 cents. Set on timers, one or two distillers could warm the rooms they're in for about five hours. Distilled water stores well without treatment, so many gallons can be stored for use in warmer times.

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"...Let me remind everyone that Acres lives in FLORIDA in the winter..."

We get sub-freezes in Florida—you probably don't get "rolling electric blackouts" when it freezes. Typically, our blackouts will last four hours.

Under such emergencies, consider running a tub of hot water to capture the heat from an electric water heater that would normally go unused and lost. A local radio program suggested plugging the tub during showers to "gain" that warmth inside the house instead of being lost underground. (Drain the tub after it's cooled).

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"...Wood stoves are terrific, but for most people, they are just a form of recreational heat..."

"Recreational heat" is a fire in a fireplace: woodstoves are pretty efficient. Either way, wood is a solar energy resource.

It's probably too late in the game to buy a good used one this season. If you do happen to find one, check for weak spots in the cast iron or steel plates—they do get thin. If it disassembles for transport, reassemble it using a special high-temperature caulk. That caulk doesn't store well, so use it liberally.

I'd forego colored exteriors, and go with the basic cast iron finish. Locate it far from any refrigerator or freezer, use dry wood, store the wood where it gets some sun and be creative with stovepipe. Some early settlers used two or three "up" pipes to the ceiling. I use one pipe but use a small fan in a duct to return heat to floor level. Long runs of pipe will more transfer more heat indoors but require some minimum angle to properly duct the smoke.

Counter-intuititively, pipe has to be assembled with the creased end down and pointing towards the wood heat source. (To keep condensing moisture in the pipe.) In the last ten years, I've bought three cast iron wood stoves, and rigged the stove pipes myself, so I know ALL the mistakes...I mean, angles to this heat source.

One antique woodstove—bought in Ossipee—burns wood and coal. Bituminous coal, I found, burns 'way too hot for Florida's occasional sub-freezing temps. The difference between where the stove was located and the furthest part of the house could be 60° in temperature! LOL.

Because my Winnipesaukee place is not insulated, the woodstove can only manage about 30° above the outside temperature and has to be augmented with electric heat between Halloween and Thanksgiving. (After which time, the pipes would freeze anyway—so this Yankee goes to Florida).

[Argie's Wife]

First off, thanks for all the input and suggestions...

Our home is rather new and well insulated. It was one of the homes that was hit by the flood here in Alton when the dam broke in 1997 (?). We weren't the owners at the time. The place was gutted, redone, and an addition done. There's new windows, honeycomb-style shades, great insulation - our only gripe has been there's no storm doors, so we're putting those up this weekend. We've added on a sun room and it solar heats our downstairs alone on a good sunny day - even in the winter. It was about 75 degrees out there today!

Our furnace is less than 10 years old and we have it serviced each year, on schedule. We don't have a water heater but hot water on demand from the furnace. I'm not exactly sure how that works, to be honest. I know it's supposed to be an efficient way of heating the water we need for showers, dishes, etc.

Now, for what we're able to spend on secondary heating options... let me say that a huge project costing thousands of $$$ is out of the question. So, putting up a chimney or any major masonry work, etc. just isn't an option. Yeah, we could finance something but... that would depend on how it might help us in the big picture. My findings so far are that the device that makes the heat isn't the cost issue - getting it installed is the expensive part.

We've been keeping the heat at 60 degrees during the day, and 56 at night. We use electric blankets (except for the kids - but they're small and wear those fleece footie pajamas to bed.)

One thing I've found that I like the "plug and play" aspect of and it seems like the cost of running it won't be too bad, is a new Eden Pure heaters:
http://www.edenpurestore.com/

Anyone have any experience with these? We've got a small quartz heater we picked up at BJ's that we use in the sunroom when we're having supper out there or I place in the baby's room on super-cold nights. It's great and I never see an increase in our bills.

Maybe this is the answer?

(I don't mean to be a pest about this - neither hubby nor I are very handy and I grew up in apartments so this is new to me...)

[Just Sold]

I ran across this article http://www.eagletribune.com/punewsnh...326221901.html about a new nome in Kingston, NH. They have no traditional heating system. Not for existing homes, without major changes, but very possible for new construction. http://www.rphilipstech.com/

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

One thing I've found that I like the "plug and play" aspect of and it seems like the cost of running it won't be too bad, is a new Eden Pure heaters:
http://www.edenpurestore.com/

Anyone have any experience with these? We've got a small quartz heater we picked up at BJ's that we use in the sunroom when we're having supper out there or I place in the baby's room on super-cold nights. It's great and I never see an increase in our bills.

Maybe this is the answer?

(I don't mean to be a pest about this - neither hubby nor I are very handy and I grew up in apartments so this is new to me...)

AW... I looked at the Eden Pure.. and as I always do, I checked it out at Consumers Reports website... doesn't look good. Eden Pure was rated dead last. and very expensive.. the "Best Buy" was:

[B]Holmes Quartz Tower HQH319 $60, CR Best Buy

Using quartz-tube elements to heat, the Holmes offers excellent temperature control and 750- and 1,500-watt settings.

Hope this helps... I tried to attach the entire article but it wouldn't "Copy and Paste" The review is online for members.. (I'm a member) . I've found it worthwhile to pay the online "subsciption" fee. They have saved me a number of time from buying products that didn't test well. It's also available at the newstand in the October 07 issue. The article does a nice job of going over the available options.. and points out the Good and Bad.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

"...We've got a small quartz heater we picked up at BJ's that we use in the sunroom when we're having supper out there or I place in the baby's room on super-cold nights. It's great and I never see an increase in our bills..."

I've got a 1000/1500-watt Honeywell quartz heater: it's US-made, effective, radiant (which is a very efficient heat), and noisy when on the thermostat.

"Ceramic" space heaters, with their tiny fans, are much quieter and may be the safest of all the space heaters. (No exposed heating element, and have external tip-over switches that one can physically check in a second).

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

"...let me say that a huge project costing thousands of $$$ is out of the question. So, putting up a chimney or any major masonry work, etc. just isn't an option...My findings so far are that the device that makes the heat isn't the cost issue - getting it installed is the expensive part...(I don't mean to be a pest about this - neither hubby nor I are very handy and I grew up in apartments so this is new to me...)"

The nice thing about installing a wood stove is that it's not rocket science—and doesn't need to be expensive. Setting up the steel stove pipe is a bit tricky.

Being in a hurry for my first winter, I carefully removed a window pane, replaced it with an aluminum panel and ran the pipe through that panel outdoors. (No mortar—no masonry—no brick chimney). Tools? Pop-riveter, drill, tin snips, stove caulk and saber-saw.

During the summer (when nobody's "doing" heat), I collected stainless steel pipes at yard sales (~$5 each) and re-did all the piping—rerouting the pipe through a wall.

Kits are available for piping through a wall—check your local building codes for suitability.

Sometimes the most difficult part is the first step.

[Weirs guy]

APS, I thought (I know, building codes! ) wood stoves had to be exhausted through the chimney with a sperate flue from any other heating source.

Is it really (I know, building codes! ) that easy?

[SIKSUKR]

I don't think any heating device that uses electricity makes sense as far as dollars per btu output.Here's a chart from the US office of energy that is great for comparing energy cost.Wish there was a wood value.I don't know what efficiency rating they use for the fuels but electric is 100%.You can plug in different energy costs for comparison.

Fuel------$ per million BTU------Cost of fuel

Oil--------18.24-----------------$2.53/gal
Gas-------11.86-----------------1.18/therm
Propane---27.19-----------------2.48/gallon
Electric----41.38-----------------.14/kilowatt hour

[Blue Thunder]

Wood pellets have 16.4 million BTU/Ton with an efficiency of 83%.
Wood has 20 million BTU/Cord with an efficiency of 77%.
Coal has 25 million BTU/Ton with an efficiency of 80%

Blue Thunder

[idigtractors]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

APS, I thought (I know, building codes! ) wood stoves had to be exhausted through the chimney with a sperate flue from any other heating source.

The first part is not true. One can run a stove through the double wall stove pipe and not just a chimney. You are correct regarding a separate flue for each unit using a chimney. If you have a furnace, fire place and a wood stove you DO need three (3) flues in your single chimney.

[fatlazyless]

It is ok according to Massachusetts code to run an oil or nat gas or propane fired water heater up thy same flu as thy boiler-furnace.


Provided ye shall compensate ye local Bay State building inspector. Ho-ho.... ......chuckles....but it really is ok to run a hw heater and boiler into same flu.......just needs correct flu pipe set-up for it to work ok.....with no back drafts or smelly black oil smoke.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I don't think any heating device that uses electricity makes sense as far as dollars per btu output.Here's a chart from the US office of energy that is great for comparing energy cost.Wish there was a wood value.I don't know what efficiency rating they use for the fuels but electric is 100%.You can plug in different energy costs for comparison.

Fuel------$ per million BTU------Cost of fuel

Oil--------18.24-----------------$2.53/gal
Gas-------11.86-----------------1.18/therm
Propane---27.19-----------------2.48/gallon
Electric----41.38-----------------.14/kilowatt hour

WOW - where were you last night when hubby and I were crunching numbers trying to figure out our options. We're serious about this and not kicking tires. It was sad to see that we're on the national high-end of electricity costs. I loved the safety aspects the electricity would have given us but the cost doesn't justify the purchasing of the product and the cost of the fuel it will use. The national rates vary between $0.08/kWh and $0.14/kWh. Boo hiss! If electricity was less expensive it would have been a option.

So, we're sorta back to the drawing board unless someone comes up with something that's solar powered... I looked into that but there's not much that works when there's no sun (doesn't store energy...)

We got a tank of fuel delivered today and the delivery guy was almost apologetic about handing me the bill.

"Here's the bill for some liquid gold," he quipped.

The bill was for $607... an arm, a leg, and my first born.

[fatlazyless]

Oh no, at 2.53/gal for heating oil, a 275 gal tank costs aboout 680 dollars......time to close up the house, drain the pipes and start hitchhiking to Florida. Maybe, Acres will slow down and pick you up in his Porsche.

Way up north in Groveton NH, after 103 years the Wasau Paper mill is closing on Dec 31 due to the high cost of heating oil and diesel fuel which are basically the same thing. Diesel is dyed blue for the highway tax, and heating oil is dyed cranberry color red because it's the same color as wine.....no, not really but it is dyed red. Bet you didn't know that 275 gal tank in the basement was full of a red wine colored liquid.

Increasing transport costs for trucking 105,000 tons/year of high quality, finished paper from Groveton to Ohio and Indiana, along with the heating oil needed to power the mill turned a successfull 103 year operation into a money loser.

"If the mill made money, we'd keep it open!" says the big boss.

While the truck drivers for Roehl Transport of Groveton get about 35 cents/mile for driving, the diesel bill runs about 60 cents/mile and Roehl moves about half the Wasau paper.

After the last Roehl truck has left with a 20 ton load of paper, sometime in January, flatbed trucks will no doubt show up to remove the paper making equipment for its' trip to somewhere...like to Wisconsin or to China. Mostly due to the high cost of heating oil and diesel, which are basically the same item.

So, the increase in oil prices all changed the dynamics of making paper, closing the mill, and it's all over for 303 very high paying north country manufactoring jobs. From a high paying local job......to.........what?

.....that's real sad for the Groveton area.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

"...Mind you because I am unwilling to get up at 3 or 4 in the morning and throw a log or two on the fire the mornings are a bit nippy..."

Try tossing in a piece of unsplit wood when turning in and turn the air intake to zero (which is really very low). A round piece of 4" or 5" oak or maple (even hemlock), placed on glowing ashes will still keep things comfortable by daybreak.

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

"...Wood has 20 million BTU/Cord with an efficiency of 77%..."

Where a wood supply can be supplemented with winter windfalls on one's property, efficiency is of less concern. Relatives nearby have a woodlot mostly for privacy, and give away the wood that they pay to have cut down.

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

"...If electricity was less expensive it would have been a option..."

It sounds like you have a newer, tight, house—a good thing. Is the fireplace tightly sealed? A lot of heat can go outdoors that way.

Electricity can still "spot heat" economically. At the computer, I put my feet on a rubber heating pad—bought at a yard sale—that originally was designed as a water bed heater, and uses only 75 watts. After an hour, it gets too hot! Last year, I bought a backup water bed heating pad for $1.

Now that I think of it, a water bed holds a lot of water-mass (radiant heat), and it is heated by just a 75 watt heater. Even if (or especially if) unused, is a water bed an economical source of radiant heat?

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

First off, thanks for all the input and suggestions...

Our home is rather new and well insulated. It was one of the homes that was hit by the flood here in Alton when the dam broke in 1997 (?). We weren't the owners at the time. The place was gutted, redone, and an addition done. There's new windows, honeycomb-style shades, great insulation - our only gripe has been there's no storm doors, so we're putting those up this weekend. We've added on a sun room and it solar heats our downstairs alone on a good sunny day - even in the winter. It was about 75 degrees out there today!

Our furnace is less than 10 years old and we have it serviced each year, on schedule. We don't have a water heater but hot water on demand from the furnace. I'm not exactly sure how that works, to be honest. I know it's supposed to be an efficient way of heating the water we need for showers, dishes, etc.

Now, for what we're able to spend on secondary heating options... let me say that a huge project costing thousands of $$$ is out of the question. So, putting up a chimney or any major masonry work, etc. just isn't an option. Yeah, we could finance something but... that would depend on how it might help us in the big picture. My findings so far are that the device that makes the heat isn't the cost issue - getting it installed is the expensive part.

We've been keeping the heat at 60 degrees during the day, and 56 at night. We use electric blankets (except for the kids - but they're small and wear those fleece footie pajamas to bed.)

One thing I've found that I like the "plug and play" aspect of and it seems like the cost of running it won't be too bad, is a new Eden Pure heaters:
http://www.edenpurestore.com/

Anyone have any experience with these? We've got a small quartz heater we picked up at BJ's that we use in the sunroom when we're having supper out there or I place in the baby's room on super-cold nights. It's great and I never see an increase in our bills.

Maybe this is the answer?

(I don't mean to be a pest about this - neither hubby nor I are very handy and I grew up in apartments so this is new to me...)

AW,
I'll throw my 2 cents at this and say that you might want to consider a wood pellet stove. I've had one for 11 years. It replaced my wood stove and I've never looked back. You can spend $1200-$2800 on a pellet stove but it's the payback you really have to consider. Wood pellets are a sustainable energy source in the US and the price is stable compared to the various fuels. I paid $160/ton for pellets in 1996 and paid $210/ton this year. I don't think that even kept up with inflation! You can install a pellet stove anywhere in your home as long as it's on an outside wall and near an electrical outlet. It only requires a "3" pipe through the wall using special insulated pipe, no chimney required. You say you are not handy, but you must know someone who is. The toughest part is carrying the unit to where you want it. They go 350-400 lbs so you'll need a couple of burly guys (or gals!) I burn about 2.5 tons a year and my house is a constant 70-75 degrees. ( I know, that's ridiculous, but my wife is always cold and it's nice to keep her happy) Today's models start and stop by themselves using a thermostat set at a certain temp and if I was going to make a recommendation, which I am, I would look at Harmon Stoves.
There are several members of this Forum who have them and maybe they'll chime in. You can do a lot of research online so grab a blanket (sorry, couldn't resist, I know you're serious) and click away. You can PM me if you have any questions.

Blue Thunder

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Oh no, at 2.53/gal for heating oil, a 275 gal tank costs aboout 680 dollars......time to close up the house, drain the pipes and start hitchhiking to Florida. Maybe, Acres will slow down and pick you up in his Porsche.

Way up north in Groveton NH, after 103 years the Wasau Paper mill is closing on Dec 31 due to the high cost of heating oil and diesel fuel which are basically the same thing. Diesel is dyed blue for the highway tax, and heating oil is dyed cranberry color red because it's the same color as wine.....no, not really but it is dyed red. Bet you didn't know that 275 gal tank in the basement was full of a red wine colored liquid.

Increasing transport costs for trucking 105,000 tons/year of high quality, finished paper from Groveton to Ohio and Indiana, along with the heating oil needed to power the mill turned a successfull 103 year operation into a money loser.

"If the mill made money, we'd keep it open!" says the big boss.

While the truck drivers for Roehl Transport of Groveton get about 35 cents/mile for driving, the diesel bill runs about 60 cents/mile and Roehl moves about half the Wasau paper.

After the last Roehl truck has left with a 20 ton load of paper, sometime in January, flatbed trucks will no doubt show up to remove the paper making equipment for its' trip to somewhere...like to Wisconsin or to China. Mostly due to the high cost of heating oil and diesel, which are basically the same item.

So, the increase in oil prices all changed the dynamics of making paper, closing the mill, and it's all over for 303 very high paying north country manufactoring jobs. From a high paying local job......to.........what?

.....that's real sad for the Groveton area.

Not to derail this but I used to work for Spencer Press in Wells, ME as a customer service rep and we got a lot of our paper from Wasau. I hate to think of the impact this is going to have on not just Groveton but the printing/paper industry in general. Spencer Press was one of the top ten offset printing companies in the country when I was there - I don't know how it ranks now, but I would guess it's probably still a big player. Sad that Wasau is closing...


==========

Blue Thunder -

Yes, the pellet stove is looking attractive as I'm sitting here in silk long underwear, a turtleneck, wool socks and LL Bean fleece. We do know handymen (my brothers - love 'em!). It's not something we could afford this winter but next winter, unless a better option presents itself... Money is tight not just because of fuel costs but also because Hubby's income has been frozen for two years as he's a teacher and the contract didn't pass again. I had quit my job to stay home with the kids and then the cost of living went thru the roof. I get it that voters also have bills to pay but...

[Weirs guy]

For what its worth (next to nothing) my brother in law recently bought a new house that had a pellet stove. He spent a half hour last weekend expounding about how wonderful, cheap and easy to use it is. Hes extremely happy with it and I am considering one down the road over a wood stove.

AW, maybe you can find something on Craigslist or Freecycle? If not theres always income tax time!

idigtractors, thanks for the info. For some reason I thought even double wall pipe through a wall was a no-no.

[fatlazyless]

Yeah, it's not totally out-of -the question to find a freebie pellet stove in good working condition.

Check this out. Go to craigslist-nh and click on the 'for sale' heading, then enter 'free Wolfeboro' into search and you get a big long list of every freebie give-away item in Wolfeboro.

Gee, you know i've got a cottage full of nice second hand Wolfeboro furniture. Nice to live close to the wealthy folk.

Not only is Wolfeboro America's oldest summer resort, it's also NH's freebie give-a-way capitol.

ps.......Anyone have an 8'x8'x8' shed that looks like a little barn which they want to lose?

[tis]

Blue Thunder. Very interesting. How many ton of pellets would you use in a winter to heat your house? (say for a certain sq. ft. house) I knew someone who used one years ago when they first came out but never thought to ask. Also do you know how it compares to oil?

[wifi]

Here is a nice conversion chart:

http://www.mainepublicservice.com/cu...d%20Energy.pdf

[Blue Thunder]

Tis,
I burn 2.5-3 tons of premium pellets per year and my home is just under 2000sf. I should point out that my pellet stove is used as secondary heat although my gas furnace almost never runs. I have separate NG H/W heaters.
As stated earlier, my house (and wife) are heated to an average 75 degrees. Obviously, not too many people are going to heat their homes to that level with their primary systems.

WiFi,
You're right. Nice chart. Here's a link to one that you can plug in the values for all of the respective fuels and it will calculate costs.

http://pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm

Winnie Divers,
The average BTU's per pound of pellets is closer to 8300 btu's (assuming a premium hardwood pellet) which makes the btu's per ton closer to 16.4 million. The efficiency of a quality pellet stove is closer to 85-90%. Burning a premium pellet in a good stove with an efficency of 87%, you'll use about 3 tons per year in a 2000 sf home.

FWIW, I am not a heating specialist, just a guy who's had a pellet stove for 11 years and been extremely satisfied with the results.

Blue Thunder

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

I read these posts and just chuckle to myself... As you say, your husband is a learned person, yet he couldn't see the writing on the wall. No disrespect meant, but my gaud how pathetic this is... A true New Englander knows it going to get cold and cheap fuel is going to come to an end sooner or later.

Maybe because I'm in the heating business I see things a little more clearly than most do and have prepared my house for winter and have laid in a fuel supply to get me through.

I know this is a serious situation… But geesh, did this come as a surprise to you? Why don’t you go and get a part time job, save the money and buy the pellet stove and a couple of tons of fuel and make the best of, it instead of wringing your hands here on the forum.

I'm not condoning a person not being prepared for the winter, but don't you think that there are more then a few individuals in this same boat? I myself plan to spend just shy of $2,000 to heat our house this winter, with prebuy, using oil. Thats not something I found rattling around in the couch, so any tips I get here or anyone else does, well I'd rather see someone poking around for suggestions here then head to city hall for a hand out.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

I'm not condoning a person not being prepared for the winter, but don't you think that there are more then a few individuals in this same boat? I myself plan to spend just shy of $2,000 to heat our house this winter, with prebuy, using oil. Thats not something I found rattling around in the couch, so any tips I get here or anyone else does, well I'd rather see someone poking around for suggestions here then head to city hall for a hand out.

I chose to "let it ride" by not prebuying this year, obviously a big mistake. I did prebuy last year, obviously a big mistake. Next year I think I'll be asking Winni Diver for advice.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

I read these posts and just chuckle to myself... As you say, your husband is a learned person, yet he couldn't see the writing on the wall. No disrespect meant, but my gaud how pathetic this is... A true New Englander knows it going to get cold and cheap fuel is going to come to an end sooner or later.

Maybe because I'm in the heating business I see things a little more clearly than most do and have prepared my house for winter and have laid in a fuel supply to get me through.

I know this is a serious situation… But geesh, did this come as a surprise to you? Why don’t you go and get a part time job, save the money and buy the pellet stove and a couple of tons of fuel and make the best of, it instead of wringing your hands here on the forum.

Wow - what to say to this diatribe?

First off, your sympathy was never asked for so please save it for someone who has asked for it or needs it. I am offended by your use of the word "pathetic" and do take it that you're being disrespectful. There's certainly nothing warm and fuzzy about your post, that's for certain. At no time did I say this was a surprise to us - we've had an unusually difficult year financially and are simply looking at what we can do. (I'd never take a handout anyone - not without paying it back.)

Not that I owe you an explanation but my husband is a public school teacher on his second year with no contract. I quit my job almost three years ago to be at home with the kids because of the cost of child care, gas, etc. (Minus those things and I was making about $4/hour, after taxes - wasn't worth it.) I now work nights and weekends per diem at a hospital, and I do some secretarial work, graphic design, and shoot video to make extra money. I do okay but it doesn't replace the COLA my husband would have received.

In October we had a microburst tornado drop six trees on our home causing about $10,000 worth of damage. Our home owners' insurance covered most of it, but we only received about 60% on the total of the personal property damage. Add the difference of that to the insurance deductible and you're looking at a few grand gone.

At about the same time, our refrigerator sprung a leak and caused damage to our kitchen floor and sub floor - it's a warped mess. All that is being ripped up and replaced but it costs money. Long story short - the fridge was built into the kitchen walls and cannot be moved without taking out a wall. We've had several contractors in here to look at it and all say the same thing, while shaking their heads and saying "Wow, never seen that before!" Wells Appliance can testify that you cannot move that fridge - Lord knows that man tried! We had just assumed it would come out when we yanked it out - wrong.

(This is the "long story short" I referenced in my first post. It's not like we've sat on our fannies watching the calendar and said, "Lookie here! Winter's coming! Maybe we should start thinking about heating oil...") I'm in my late-30's and never been in this situation before - and I'm from New England (Maine), so I know what it entails - I just wanted to know what others in the area were doing this year...

So, you tell me, since you're so wise and full of knowledge...

At what point, as we're wiping out our savings and trying to stay out of debt, was I supposed to pre-buy oil? Gee, was I supposed to put off fixing the siding on one side of my home or put off fixing the roof so I could get oil? Maybe I was supposed to leave the six trees on the house? (That was $3,500 in tree removal alone...) Or maybe the kitchen floor should be ignored - I mean, it will only rot, after all?

I'm hardly surprised by the cost of heating oil - I am more surprised by your carelessly worded post and heartless attitude towards someone who's been very open and forthcoming (and thankful!) for the posts submitted by her fellow Winni Forum members.

Well, enough said. Time to go stand in a corner and wring my hands, I guess.

[fatlazyless]

After paying 5.39/gal for propane last winter I paid up front for an Amerigas prebuy in August and am locked at 2.39. ......wow...big difference!

In 2005, Amerigas-Vermont reneged on their Vermont prebuy and raised prices for a few hundred customers. It took about one year and a lawsuit from the Vermont Attorney General to get Amerigas -Vt to pay out refunds.

So, even with an Amerigas prebuy plan....it may change. Amerigas is the largest bottled propane supplier in the US.

[Blue Thunder]

Perfectly stated AW, absolutely perfect.
BT

[secondcurve]

"I never had the opportunity to get a secondary education"

Unfortunately, it shows. Merry Christmas Mr. Scrooge.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

With that tale of woe, no wonder you can’t afford to buy oil… I cannot tell you how you could have spent you money any wiser. Your husband is most fortunate that he has a union to guard his health care, his vacation days (make that, weeks), his nine months of work for a full years pay and other perks. I can only dream what that must be like… on the job at 7 AM and off at 2:30 and a lunch break too.

I’m sorry to be so sarcastic, but welcome to the real world… I never had the opportunity to get a secondary education, I was married with kids at 20 and had to support them. I had to educate myself to get a head and provide a decent life for them. My wife was a stay at home mom and homemaker, together we have prospered and raised our kids well. Life is good and we enjoy our New Hampshire independence.

My advice to you would be the same I’d give to my daughters: Get a saw cut up next winter’s firewood that fell on your house. Get out the hammer and saw, get down to Home Depot get the supplies and fix the siding and roof yourself. It seems to me that you never even tried to help yourself and you felt the only way to fix it was pay someone else to do the dirty work. Don’t tell me these are high skilled jobs and you can’t do it… remember your not hiring people with a PHD. What the worst that can happen? You failed… Then do it again until you get it right. You don’t know how? Then get the book out and do what you do best… Read it! That’s what I did and reading isn’t one of my strong points.

Maybe this message will help you to help yourself, then again, maybe it won’t. Maybe you’ll continue read more into what I said and still be bitter that you haven’t got your “COLA” and that no one is coming to help you.

I can't believe you've taken yet another swipe at us - what have I done to you? What have I asked you for other than advice? You've spewed some real pearls there... "welcome to reality" like I had no idea about this? Geez, rather vicious approach towards a stay-at-home-mom who's just trying to save money for her family... I'm in awe.

I'm going to briefly take you to task on your comments about how little teachers work:

Hubby leaves at 6:45AM and generally gets home around 5:30 on a good day. He's a department head, AP teacher, SAT course teacher, Math Team leader, and does many things on a volunteer basis (no pay) to help the students and school. He's been at the same school for 10 years and commutes 37 miles one way each day. He loves his job and is more certainly in it for the kids. He's a mathematician first - his degree isn't in education but he is certified. He's one of the top in his field and has worked hard to get there. He'd love to get a real lunch break - he's usually helping students and is a union rep. He works 12 months a year, as he also teaches Summer School.

So, yeah... he's got it real cushy. You go spend 40+ hours with 500 teenagers and see how you fare.

BTW - I'm hardly bitter about the lack of contract (you try so hard to read into what's NOT there...)- that's the gamble one takes when they choose that career path. I understand and sympathize with the voters who voted against the contract - they don't want to see taxes go up and the timing of the votes have been poor, at best.

I can hardly cut the trees that were removed by a crane and the siding and roof were done by professionals because it all had to be taken off or down and done correctly. It's hardly a case of that work being "beneath us" (I don't think that way - the guy who pumped my septic system last week is a *god*, in my book - I couldn't do that!) - I'm still working on cleaning up after them to save money - but we needed it done immediately before it could rain or snow.
That part was covered by insurance - the personal property (i.e. the carport that got smashed and the contents of it) is what's coming from our pockets.

The "intent" of your comments about learning how to become a DIY aren't lost on me but I'm also happy to admit where I fall short, as we both know those projects can turn out to be twice as expensive (both in time and money) when you go too far from your comfort zone. Like fixing a car, I can change the oil (and I do!) or install a new air filter but know that rebuilding a tranny would be a disaster for me to even try... get it? Somethings are better left to professionals...

[SIKSUKR]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

Long story short: We were unable to pre-buy oil this year and now I'm running scared about how we're going to get through the heating season without loosing our shirt. Hubby is a teacher and is on his second year with no contract . The cost of living has certainly gone up - income has not...

So...

I'm posting here, hoping that some of you with loads of Yankee ingenuity can help me with some advice...

What secondary affordable heating options do you recommend?

Our home is about 2200 sq ft - I don't need to heat the whole thing - we're only upstairs to sleep, really. We currently heat it with a No. 2 heating oil furnace (baseboard heat).

(Keep in mind we have young children, pets, etc - woodstoves concern and worry me... but I would consider them... )

Thanks for your input...

Wow WD.Did you read Argies original post?She simply asked for advice not a handout.Why do you feel you have to take shots at her?You are way out of line here.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

This thread had been quite valuable to get us thinking about not only the cost this year but the cost and best logic going forward. I applaud the great information and beg that the personal stuff can quite down so we can get back to learning together.

Something tells me that global warming is going to do little to reduce our heating requirements.

I know that heat pumps are only efficient to a certain temperature but wonder if there is some data that would suggest that running a heat pump as a secondary source when the temperature is warm enough makes any sense? In other words how many KW does it take to heat pump 1000btu when the outside temp is 40 degrees? 50? 60?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

"...I know that heat pumps are only efficient to a certain temperature but wonder if there is some data that would suggest that running a heat pump as a secondary source when the temperature is warm enough makes any sense...?

I heard that 40° was the cutoff for heat pump efficiency. Current oil prices may have lowered that threshold a tiny bit.

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

"...I can hardly cut the trees that were removed by a crane and the siding and roof were done by professionals because it all had to be taken off or down and done correctly. It's hardly a case of that work being "beneath us"..."

When I've needed professional tree cutting, I get the wood cutter to cut woodstove-sized pieces to leave behind. (That's the round, unsplit pieces that will burn overnight or just "tend" the fire during day-long absences.)

When I asked the professionals who were cutting at my immediate neighbor's for a few pieces to drag away from their chipper, you'd think that chipped wood was gold!

What happens to the chipped wood anyway—maybe it is valuable? Is that the stock from which wood pellets are made?

BTW: Now's a good time to study replacing those trees for passive solar benefit: hardwoods to the east and west...evergreens to the north. Hardwoods lower A/C costs during the summer and drop their leaves in time to gain the winter sun. Make a note of where the sun rises and sets in January, and plant accordingly.

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

"...At about the same time, our refrigerator sprung a leak and caused damage to our kitchen floor and sub floor...All that is being ripped up and replaced...the fridge was built into the kitchen walls and cannot be moved without taking out a wall..."

Doesn't your homeowners insurance policy cover the leak damage and any consequential damages involved in the repair/replacement of the refrigerator?

Hiring an independant insurance adjuster could pay dividends.

[Argie's Wife]

Acres -
Thanks for the note.

The trees were my neighbor's trees and were at the edge of a brook that divides both our properties. Our house sits very close to the property line - so close, we could never have a garage without serious variances being allowed. We have only a third of an acre - planting more trees might help and I'd never heard of the hardwoods/evergreens thing you mentioned - that's something I'm going to look into for sure.

And I noticed the same thing about the chipped wood! My sister wanted some of the wood and you would have thought it was gold. When I asked for it, I was told it was part of the agreement for the removal that we had signed. I mean, would they have charged us more if we'd insisted we get to keep it?

The refrigerator damage only is covered by insurance. The cost of replacing it, the deductible, and upgrades in flooring that's put back down, are costs we have to eat. (The floor was a very large, special order, of linoleum - no seams.) I'm looking into getting something that's hardwood or even tile, depending on cost, etc. We were amazed this was covered by insurance at all!

As they say, "It could be worse!" And in all this I found I had the most awesome neighbors - they were so helpful and concerned about us - we didn't really need anything but it was just nice knowing they cared (I love my neighbors!)

=================

I agree this thread has been very informative and certainly been a great sounding board for the possibilities we were considering... Overall, it is a positive thing and I'm very appreciative of the input all y'all have submitted here...

Since starting this thread we've concluded that tightening up the house more has the best "bang for the buck". We thought we were good but this thread made up reassess things a bit more...

We've now installed two new storm doors - they're both energy rated and have tax rebates attached... we've sealed up the basement windows and one slightly drafty kitchen window (the sill is drafty, if that makes sense.) (This has made a HUGE difference in the road noise we used to hear!)

I've installed a layer of insulating film on the patio doors. It's darkened the glass a little but we do feel quite a difference there! (It was worth the two hours of solid cussing I did to get it right!)

We're looking at possibly rolling another layer of insulation in the attic this weekend...

We've also decided that we're doing a pellet or even a corn stove next year, as the baby will be older and easier to keep away from things. (He's two... very two!) And we'll have the warm seasons to install it.

When I talk with the other young families many are in the same boat - just wondering how to stretch their incomes further and get through winter. I also know of a few seniors who are struggling and have already spent their fuel assistance money - my heart really goes out to them and there's a couple that I'm helping to seal their windows up today, hoping it will help...

Thanks again!

-AW

[secondcurve]

Mrs. Argie:

One other small thing you might try is to remove all your screens in the winter. This allows more natural light, which will warm things up a bit in the day.

On another topic, Spencer Press was sold to RR Donnelly a couple of years back. I guess John and Stephen got tired of the daily grind. Mr. Sullivan was one of my favorites. It certainly is a small world.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee Divers

With that tale of woe, no wonder you can’t afford to buy oil… I cannot tell you how you could have spent you money any wiser. Your husband is most fortunate that he has a union to guard his health care, his vacation days (make that, weeks), his nine months of work for a full years pay and other perks. I can only dream what that must be like… on the job at 7 AM and off at 2:30 and a lunch break too.

I’m sorry to be so sarcastic, but welcome to the real world… I never had the opportunity to get a secondary education, I was married with kids at 20 and had to support them. I had to educate myself to get a head and provide a decent life for them. My wife was a stay at home mom and homemaker, together we have prospered and raised our kids well. Life is good and we enjoy our New Hampshire independence.

My advice to you would be the same I’d give to my daughters: Get a saw cut up next winter’s firewood that fell on your house. Get out the hammer and saw, get down to Home Depot get the supplies and fix the siding and roof yourself. It seems to me that you never even tried to help yourself and you felt the only way to fix it was pay someone else to do the dirty work. Don’t tell me these are high skilled jobs and you can’t do it… remember your not hiring people with a PHD. What the worst that can happen? You failed… Then do it again until you get it right. You don’t know how? Then get the book out and do what you do best… Read it! That’s what I did and reading isn’t one of my strong points.

Maybe this message will help you to help yourself, then again, maybe it won’t. Maybe you’ll continue read more into what I said and still be bitter that you haven’t got your “COLA” and that no one is coming to help you.

I thought the Chip on my shoulder was big. You Winni Diver before you wade on in and make comments like this you should do a little more to understand the situation. I am fortunate I know how to do a lot around the house and my camp, and indeed it helps keeps things afordable. But some people don't have the know how. And could possibly do more damage to them self and there property by trying to fix things themsleves.....

Just how would you feel if one of your Daughters fell of a roof and spent months recovering because of your advice..... remember we are not all capable of the same things....

[Rattlesnake Guy]

I ran some calcs and came to some interesting numbers using a heat pump. I am doing further checking on a new type of heat pump from Maine called a Cold Climate Heat Pump CCHP. This unit is designed for our cold conditions and does not freeze up down to some very cold number . (Will provide more info as I understand)

Anyway. At 40 degrees just for comparison.

A million BTU of oil at $3.00 per gallon is $21.58 / %90 efficiency = $23.98

A million BTU of electric heat at $0.12 per KW is $35.16

A million BTU of Heat Pump 13 Seer as $0.12 per KW is $9.20

I guess the big problem with heat pumps is the moisture freezing on the outdoor coils when the temperature gets to low outside.

I know when I ran the numbers a few years ago for the camp and compared a heat pump to propane cylinders it was a no brainier to use a heat pump. (Which we did and have both AC and Heat) When we get to the camp the over sized unit can raise the temperature about 2 degrees per minute. The unit was only about half the BTU of the gas furnace it replaced but the heating of the air and blowing it around the room is much faster than the radiant and convection heating of the propane unit.

With the propane wall furnace, it was almost like the mass of the camp had to heat up before the air temperature would get to 70 degrees. The heat pump seems to be able to keep the air 70 degrees "while" the mass heats.

If I lived at the lake in the winter, I would use the lake water in a geothermal type setup. (If legal) That would provide heat at the 40% cost of oil described above, year round.

[upthesaukee]

When we lived in upstate NY, just north of Albany, we had a house with a heat pump. We lived through two years (natural gas was the fuel), and it was absolutely wonderful in the spring summer fall. Winter, now that's another story. Vents downstairs (which is where we spent all our time) were high on the wall. We had no problem with freezeups of the coils, but the air temperature coming out of the vents was in the sixties. Never could get the temps over 70 unless the temps outside were around 40 or so. We had two repairmen come in and check out the system, and were told by both, it was ok, it was fairly efficient still, but just not made to heat houses in the north. Got a third opinion, same story, and had also got estimates on changing over to gas furnace, which we did, keeping the heat pump for a/c. Third guy was the cheapest, and highly recommended.

I would not opt for a heat pump here in this area.

[jeffk]

I had a enhanced heat pump at a previous house in Southern NH. It not only provided heat and A/C for the house, it also heated my hot water and when the A/C was running dumped the waste heat into a coil that heated my above ground pool. It had a set of exchange panels to extend its ability to pull additional heat in winter.The system was truly amazing and extremely economical (I was saving at least $1000 a year. Very expensive to install however) until winter hit. I could heat the house until the outside temp hit about 10 or 15 degrees. As pointed out by others a regular heat pump won't work at temps that low. But the panels were on the roof and although they did not need sun, they did need air flow so when the snow built up they needed to be shoveled off. What a pain. As it turned out, the stress on the system during the winter was too much and I started to have expensive breakdowns and since the system was a Rube Goldberg affair only one person from out of the area would work on it. I finally had to pull it all out and replace it with a propane system.

Anyway, the short of it is that it's too cold for a heat pump to work during the winter around here.

[Puckster]

Just say no to geothermal. Too much initial expense and like stated before more of rub goldberg experiment for contractors in this area. Heat pumps are great for late spring and fall for cold mornings. I would take a look at the wood pellet stoves. Pellets are clean and easy to handle. Soon trucks will be delivering them like they coal used to be delivered. It is done this way in europe, and we are always 10 or so years behind in this area.

[fatlazyless]

Here's one differance between propane boilers, furnaces and room space heaters and the same but fired by #2 heating oil

With propane, it can run for years without needing a service call.

With oil, it should get an annual tune-up to clean out the burnt oil residue, replace the nozzle, and oil filter(s), and maybe adjust the air intake for best efficiency.

Oil is a good fuel because it costs less than propane and a gallon of oil has more heat in it than a gallon of propane. Also, you DO NOT GET MARRIED w/ no possibility of divorce with oil. With propane, the dealer owns the tank, and yoo are stuck with that dealer and cannot shop around for a new dealer. This makes a big differance, and the propane dealers all know it.

Oil requires a $100. annual tune-up and propane does not.

For an unoccupied weekend home, a propane heater with a pilot light will continue to make heat even when the power is out, like if a tree falls on the line to your house. With oil, when there's no electricity there is no heat. Oil tends to be more problematic than propane and has more 'no-heat' calls.


I have a Rinnai propane 30,000btu heater which was purchased by me for $800.,, reduced-end of season sale n 1993, which I installed myself, and to this day it works perfectly and has never had a service call or anything what
so-ever done to it.

It has a built in thermostat, or by turning up the dial it sends out a lot of warm air starting in just 20 short seconds......everytime.

I love my Rinnai heater, it is a direct-vent model, and if Rinnai wants to send me a $500. check for promoting Rinnai, I will gladly accept it.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Anyone have one of the non-vented propane heaters which are totally not vented? Are they any good? Do you smell any of the propane fuel smell in the hot air heat or is it as clean smelling as the same campany's vented model.............honestly?

These non-vented propane heaters usually specify that they are NOT for use in a bedroom. Why is that? If it is ok for the living room or kitchen, then why not a bedroom?

[secondcurve]

I truly feel bad for someone as bitter and ignorant as you pal. You should rent Scrooge this holiday season. You might learn a lesson.

[Argie's Wife]

(psst! COLA - means 'cost of living adjustment' since you keep quoting the acronym I assume you don't know what it stands for...)

So, another love-fest here tonight, eh?

Well, for the record, I never said I had a hard life...

... never whined (I do wine, but that's just a homonym, isn't it?)

... never said my husband was overworked (he loves his job) but he works a lot... even for a lazy public school teacher... they're all duffers, don't cha know?

... never said nature was cruel to me - said it coulda been a lot worse, eh? That's the truth!

... not drowning in self-pity here pal but I am waving (...it's just one finger, tho...)

By the way, I don't think you're illiterate - I think you hallucinate, because I never said those things or think I gave that impression. I could see you drawing that conclusion *if* I had started out the thread with a tale of woe, asking for freebies and handouts. Not so. Never asked for help - just advice. We've acted on what worked for us... the point of the thread (which you seriously missed) wasn't to focus on me or my situation but to find out what works in this area. I started it because I figured there's others in a similar boat, knew there was some really savvy folks out there who might have some tricks I didn't know about (I don't have a dad around to give me advice or teach me what you taught your daughters) and I figured there might be somethings that I hadn't thought of... (and I was right - I never thought I'd have someone be so nasty over nothing... just a discussion, really. I only got into some of the details of my circumstances because of YOU... then YOU come back to say I'm whining... Oy, vey!)

If you'd read my posts more carefully, you'd see where we've taken (or are taking) action on some of the advice - as time, money and ability allows. But you didn't want to see that - you just assume I'm waiting for help to fall from the sky. I'm not that kind of gal (you have NO idea) - but I'm not going to bother trying to justify myself to you. You've made up your mind I'm some depressed freeloader (I was the breadwinner before I was the mom here!) and my husband is a lazy slob (he's not - he's just wasn't raised to be a serious handyman - that's all.)

In short, I'm hardly cryin' in my beer - what a waste of good beer!

Now I'm gonna give you some advice... if you don't like this thread or me so much, why not pass it by and stop posting on it? You obviously have an issue with me and my family - while I've done nothing to you and been far kinder than I should have only because I know that Santa is watching.

[Resident 2B]

Argie and Argie's Wife,

Being an education professional in these times is often not rewarding from a financial perspective. To me, that shows how out-of-touch our society is with things that are important.

Lakes region students, their parents and the general public should be more respectful and thankful of those that teach the children of the area. Teachers that spend their time, with little financial compensation, to teach Advanced Placement classes and to serve as class advisors deserve much more than what they get from the cities and towns that employ them. We have excellent school buildings and campuses in the lakes region overall, but education starts with teachers in the classroom.

I wish you and your family well and I hope you are able to do whatever is needed to stay in this area. My opinion is that your efforts bring significance to the lives of the students of the Lakes Region. Hopefully, many of your students will go on to lead the political and municipal organizations in our area as well as the companies in New Hampshire as we move into the future.

I hope the unjustified, negative comments from those that do not seem to understand your contributions and your situation do not get the best of you.

Thanks for your contributions to the future of the youngsters of the Lakes Region and I hope your get the information you need and deserve to address your request about energy conservation.

Best regards,

R2B

[Argie's Wife]

Thanks R2B! Your kind words warm my heart!

[SAMIAM]

I,also have a Rinnai propane heater (vented) and it is fantastic....heats a two car gargae and a mother-in-law apt above.I do take issue with you,FLL about changing propane dealers.All dealers freely exchange tanks.Unfortunately,you don't have much leverage to get a better price if you are a small user.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

...... Unfortunately,you don't have much leverage to get a better price if you are a small user.

I have belonged to the energy coop for years and have saved a bundle. You will need to join the year before to enjoy savings the next winter. When you join, you are not committing to a purchase, and can just choose not to use them if you don't like the bid price. Check 'em out.. I highly recommend.

http://www.otchoice.com/Prices2.htm

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

I,also have a Rinnai propane heater (vented) and it is fantastic....heats a two car gargae and a mother-in-law apt above.I do take issue with you,FLL about changing propane dealers.All dealers freely exchange tanks.Unfortunately,you don't have much leverage to get a better price if you are a small user.

When we bought our home, the propane tanks for the stove were non-descript and had no identifying marks anywhere on them. We tried to get someone to come out to fill the tanks but all propane companies refused. (I get it that there's laws about that for safety reasons.)

We ended up having to have a new tank installed by Eastern and have them certify the lines into the house in order to get service. That was about $300, if memory serves me correctly.

The old tanks were placed just behind our shed and we had contracted with someone from the dump to pick them up to be recycled (we don't have a p/u truck...)

And that's when someone "stole" the tanks!

We reported the missing tanks to the police but figured there was probably nothing anyone could do if no one saw the incident. We later heard from some neighbors that the tanks were taken on a "repo" by Eastern because the previous home owners hadn't paid the bill! (We had paid for that propane in the closing on the house.)

(I guess the guys taking the tanks had stopped for coffee there before collecting the two tanks!)

Gotta love small towns!

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by wifi

I have belonged to the energy coop for years and have saved a bundle. You will need to join the year before to enjoy savings the next winter. When you join, you are not committing to a purchase, and can just choose not to use them if you don't like the bid price. Check 'em out.. I highly recommend.

http://www.otchoice.com/Prices2.htm

WiFi... is that just for Barnstead? Impressive... Maybe we should start a WinniFourum Co-Op? hmmmm... power in numbers.
Lake Shore Park has a deal with Amerigas for propane for members.. I'm only summer in LSP so I don't use much Propane. The price is $1.99.

[Blue Thunder]

Is it just me or are all of WD's posts removed from this thread?

BT

[TomC]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

..snip..We later heard from some neighbors that the tanks were taken on a "repo" by Eastern because the previous home owners hadn't paid the bill! (We had paid for that propane in the closing on the house.).. snip...

When i bought one of my houses in Moultonborough, it too had tanks filled by the previous owner. I recall I paid a nominal amount for the gas at closing, maybe $100. When I called the company on the tank (Suburban Propane - maybe Amerigas now) to inquire about switching the name on the account they would not answer any questions until I provided the address on the property - they were very insistent. I gave them the address, and they said an account rep would call with info about change of name, etc. No one called me back during the week. When I came back the following weekend, the tanks were disconnected and some sort of security plug was inserted in the tanks to prevent reconnection! Without any request or permission they trespassed on my property to disconnect this utility. As far as I was concerned that was my gas in that tank, but they didn't see it that way and wanted $75 fee to establish a new account in my name and let me have the gas i already paid for. I was furious - this was late October and i needed gas for heat and cooking... we were cold and ate take-out that weekend.

I was closing up for the season and gutting the cottage anyway, so I called the gas company back and told them that because of how i was treated, i was no longer going to use gas (i switched to electric during the remodel - its a seasonal camp) and to get their tanks off my property. Even though they were able to get from Laconia to Moultonboro at the speed of light to disconnect my utility, those tanks were still there in the spring after a dozen calls to ask that they be removed. "no truck available" or "you're on the schedule" were the favorite responses.

In May, I was close to putting them in my own truck and dumping them in their parking lot, but instead I had a lawyer friend send them a demand letter requiring removal in 10 days, or they will be billed for storage. That did it, and they were finally removed.

They repossesed gas that was already paid for, and disconnected a vital utility without notice. I have never seen a more extreme example of poor customer service and I will never deal with them again. At a different property (also in Moultonboro) I have Maine Gas (used to be Johnsons) and they seem to be fine. They were in-place when I bought the house and seamlessly switched the account over.

Thats my propane story...

[Resident 2B]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

Is it just me or are all of WD's posts removed from this thread?

BT

They are no longer there from what I can (or cannot) see. A major site improvement, in my opinion.

R2B

[wifi]

Originally Posted by SteveA

WiFi... is that just for Barnstead? Impressive... ....

No, they have a large service area, most of NH, eastern Mass (for propane) and a chunk of Maine.

http://www.otchoice.com/servArea.asp

Again, its worth every cent of the $25/yr membership

[ApS]

Notes to Argie's Wife:

Flooring:
Keep in mind "R-value" when replacing the floor. Except for radiant heating, wood may be a better choice than tile at keeping heat inside. Wood overlaying a wood subfloor strengthens it, and tile laid on wood subflooring "has issues".

Seamless "linoleum" is a decent moisture barrier, stops much heat "migration", is easy to clean and keeps water leaks relatively contained.

Tightening up the house:
Consider a "hybrid" insulation installation in the attic. A lightweight aluminum-sided urethane board is made that can be moved into place to reduce radiant solar gain in the summer. More considerations...http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=6&gl=us

Or, as a more readable PDF file: http://new.ahfc.state.ak.us/iceimage...insulating.pdf.

If you've fixed a window that also reduced road noise, you fixed one major leak right there! Holy Moly!

Stretching one's income:
As a nation, our fossil fuel demands continue to grow every year by about 4%—still! Electricity demand jumped 9% in 2006.

Everything we can do as individuals to conserve within our dwellings and workplaces will make a real difference, whereas "collectivizing" only postpones inevitable increases.

Speaking of the "Collective", a news article appeared yesterday that showed Alaska seeking a "winner" among lowest bidders on a new North Slope pipeline. Among the six bids submitted for the four-foot diameter pipeline were two bids from China!

[SAMIAM]

Wow....that is quite a story ,Tom.I don't blame you for being irate.Problem is,they don't even care because most households,especially seasonal,are fairly light users.They want the big commercial accounts that are easy to get to and don't care much about the average account.

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by wifi

No, they have a large service area, most of NH, eastern Mass (for propane) and a chunk of Maine.

http://www.otchoice.com/servArea.asp

Again, its worth every cent of the $25/yr membership

We were members of Our Town - it's a good Co-Op. There's a bunch of other benefits to their program, too - like restaurant discounts, and some other cost savings. They've done some really neat things with converting diesel cars to burn used oil (like discarded oil from restaurants' fryers) - very neat!

However, last year their lock-in rates were ABOVE the cash rate. My mom had locked and was paying more per gal than we were paying that winter. We had chosen not to lock because there was still a strong possibility oil was going to go down - and it did. I believe she's paying about $2.60/gal in Ossippee - don't know who the vendor is...

There's not much chance of that happening again this year!

[Kamper]

Mr & Mrs A (and all the little A-lettes...)

I just switched from an electric blanket to an electric heating pad. I have a water bed so it is probably more notciable for me than it would be on a normal mattress. I also used to worry about over-flexing the elements in the blanket when a careless guest would sit or sleep on top of it.

I was considerring using the plastic window sheets already mentionned. My family used them several times when we lived in a drafty old farmhouse in Litchfield. The land-lady was not too thrilled at the tack-holes in the frames but since she was my grandmother I dont think she did anything more than growl at my father.... What I decided to try are the foam insulation sheets.

I've got one trimmed to fit across the bottom of a double wide window in the living room and smaller ones inserted in the top frames and the other, smaller, windows in the house. I have left a horizontal gap for light and viewing but on those realy cold days I expect to fill those in also. They cut easily with a thin-bladed knife - just trim them a couple hairs wider than the gap so the "squeeze" will hold them in place.

In the spring or if I entertain I can just pluck them out and not worry about damage. They are also easily removed for the occasional bit of fresh air.

They come in a variety of thicknesses and even a choice of colors, pink or silver. I am using the 1"X2'X8' sheets (H-D $8 and change). Measure carefully and slice it about 1/3 to 3/4 through then flex and snap it for a neater edge.

Dont forget the celler windows and check the attic. The square vents can be restricted during the winter. If you have vents under the eaves you can close off the upwind square vent.

I want to be clear, I am not talking about the white styrofoam sheets. Those are good insulation too but the curds will wear off and make a mess. Neither material is fire-proof but my opinion is they are only slightly mor dangerous than exposed wood.

Good luck!

[DREAMS]

I am astonished at reading the words of arrogance, verbal abuse, insult, self-centered disrespectful inconsideration for humanity that he gave to an innocent reader and member looking for assistance. I thought his profession was helping humans, but I have lost all regards for this individual with his insulting thread.

This forum is about people helping people. I have not read any requirements by the webmaster that all readers and respondents must hold a certified education and skillset to speak to this forum membership. He has not business taking out his bitterness of struggle as a younger family bearing male on future generations of humanity. Unfortunately, many people have not been fortunate enough to be born or given the strength and confidence by others to attempt new adventures and challenges on their own. Many times people are so deep in their own circle of life and thoughts, they can miss the common thoughts and suggestions may offer which they had overlooked. Unless the intent of this forum has changed, I certainly think Winnipesaukee Divers owes this family a sincere apology out loud and to the forum membership. Just remember Mr. Diver, some day you may need help. Treat others like you want to be treated yourself. Ones fortunate and lavish lifestyle today can easily be taken away tomorrow and forever!

[Argie's Wife]

Kamper -

Thanks for the note!

We put up the tacky plastic window sheets this weekend. I'll keep in mind the ones you mentioned for next time, tho - I honestly hadn't heard of them!

I also didn't know about the vents you mentioned - we were just up there this weekend and decided not to insulate more right now because it's pretty thick up there. It was about 20 degrees when we were there and it was about 40 in the attic, so it seemed tight enough. We did replace a vent hose from the upstairs bathroom that wasn't insulated - that was a lovely find (NOT!) because it was way too long and full of water. Good thing we found it before it started dripping or froze.

Last night, the baby decided to get into bed with us and was all snugly under the electric blanket with me when our 6 year old came in complaining of being cold. "I want a 'lectric blanket, too!" I scooped him under the covers with us. He wasn't cold at all (our cat sleeps at his feet even in the summer - he's all set!) but felt an injustice was being done!



Thanks again!

-AW

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Resident 2B

They are no longer there from what I can (or cannot) see. A major site improvement, in my opinion.

R2B

(Slightly off topic, but relevant to this thread...)

For the record, it was not due to any request of mine nor any complaints I made to the moderator(s). I wish no ill-will to WD...

Back to topic...

Acres Per Second -
Pardon me for just now responding to your post but I have been reading the links your posted. Thank you!

The information you gave me about flooring is crucial, as we were in the process of picking out a new kitchen floor. We're going to rip out the old floor right after Christmas, during the break. I'd been considering tile but now I'm thinking we might go with wood or a wood product. We currently have a single piece of linoleum, but since we've got an open-concept home (kitchen/living is 19' X 21') getting another single piece would be a special order, I believe.

I'm also considering putting in a heated floor - at least by the coffee maker.... (Yeah, I'm a princess...)

We've got a friend who is a licensed contractor in Milton who's coming out to help us. Hubby will be working with him while I keep the ankle-biters out of the way. The fun part will be getting the fridge out of the wall. I'm going to take pictures and post them - this will be interesting, at best. (I used to clean houses for a living - been in hundreds of houses and never seen a fridge built into the wall...)

I'm assuming the energy increases you posts are the national average. We use NH Co-Op and saw a 40% increase in the past 12 months. We've cut our consumption down by hanging laundry to dry, not using the drying cycle on the dishwasher, turning off appliances or computer peripherals we're not using, and nagging the kids, but whereas our bill was about $90 last year, it's now about $125-$135.

Funny thing is that we thought that there would be a bigger increase in the utilities when I decided to stay home with the kids -it really stayed about the same. Add in the increases in heating oil costs, gas prices, etc. - and it's a big jump in the cost of living.

And about that road noise - we live about 15 paces from our front door from a major road. I'd never noticed how loud it was until the storm doors went up. They made a huge difference! I'm curious what it's going to be like now for Motorcycle Week because we're usually deaf by the end of it! (The draw back is we can't hear the school bus!)

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

"..."What secondary affordable heating options do you recommend...?"

My previous recommendation on portable kerosene heaters should be based on emergency-only use during power outages. Kerosene prices don't compete with electricity today. Here's another fan of kerosene convection heaters that just wrote today with exhaustive observations and comments.

BTW: If you plan to replace the refrigerator, check the replacement for efficiency. Several years ago, Consumer Reports determined that side-by-side refrigerators weren't as efficient as "freezer-above" refrigerators.

(And that icemakers were the most frequent service-call item in refrigerators—both of which came with my most recent house purchase! )

[jellybean]

Argie's, FWIW, we have two small children, younger than yours, and it's been fine. We have "free" wood, but it makes all the difference in the world in our oil bill - we had it installed about a year after our first was born. They make iron fences for woodstoves if you are really worried (sold in the Plow & Hearth catalog). Ours is elevated, so the kids can bump their shins on the hearth, but it's very hard for them to run smack into the stove.

One of our cats jumped right onto the top of the woodstove early one winter - ouch! But she was fine and has never made that mistake again.

We found the woodstove used for $175 (a Vermont Castings Vigilant) although that was in summer. And, it was about $1200 to have the Stove Barn folks from Concord install the chimney. Another $300 to create the hearth out of slate tile and cementboard (we did that ourselves).

When it gets really cold, we will run a new electrical space-heater (the safest one we could find, and it shuts off when tipped over) in the kids' room or the kitchen, but it makes me nervous - it has to be pretty miserable before we'll do that. I can't imagine we'd have to do that in a newer home - ours is very very old and leaky.

We are hoping to install radiant floor heat in the bathrooms and tiled areas over time to help with the comfort factor in our home. There's a DIY company in VT with a website.

[Weirs guy]

Lowes in Gilford has wood stoves starting at $165......

[CanisLupusArctos]

If you are concerned about kid safety with stoves: I was raised around wood stoves. They taught me a healthy respect for fire at a young age. When I was little I even made the mistake of touching it. I think I was 5. Mom put my finger under cold running water, and from then on, I always remembered what to do for a minor burn.

A friend of mine just moved to northern NH and now has a wood stove in the middle of their kitchen. His kids (age 6 and 8) have been around my wood stove enough so they know they shouldn't get too close to it. They snuggle up to it, and keep the same distance that the adults do.

I think it's also a good way for kids to learn about fire - basic things like "fire is too hot to walk through" and "smoke rises." When kids learn things like that, it can save their lives.

Chances are, the kids are in much greater danger when riding in a car than they are with a wood stove in the house. If you still have reservations about wood stoves, pellet stoves are a lot more kid-friendly.

[fatlazyless]

Someone in Wolfeboro has two nice looking Monitor oil heaters for recent sale on craigslist. It's a lot easier to just adjust a thermostat setting than to maintain a wood stove.. Wood stoves are a lot of work, and a good source for recreational heat.

[Argie's Wife]

FLL - I checked into those and they're too small for our home. We've got an open-concept home - the whole first floor is one room, with the exception of the bathroom... I think wood or pellet stoves are a better option for us.

For those of you who posted about your experiences with children around woodstoves - thank you! I grew up with one and had no problems but I have a cousin who is badly scarred on the left side of his face from landing upside a hot woodstove one day, when he was just 3 years old. I worry about those things - and probably lean more towards a pellet stove for that reason. So far things haven't been as bad as I had anticipated with the our fuel use. We've been extra conservative and it's paying off. That's not to say it's still a little rich for our blood....

Thanks again for all the great input - we do appreciate it!