Geothermal heating

[nhboat61]

As we keep upgrading our camp to full time we keep revisiting our options for heating.

We are looking for thoughts and or expediences about geothermal heating.

Thoughts etc.. ?

We are currently using electric and a pellet stove on the first floor. We are currently using fans , drafts and quartz heaters to get heat up to the second floor.

House is about 2200 sq feet.

Right now we travel to NH every other weekend for 3 or 4 days at a time.

[BroadHopper]

If you do a search in the forum you will find plenty of ideas. The Mitsubishi air source system seems like the way to go around the lake.

Depending on how far the dwelling is from the water the shoreline protection act may or may not effect the process in geothermal applications. It has effect one property I know of and it also effect using solar panels. I would look into this.

[Chaselady]

[QUOTE=nhboat61;198522]As we keep upgrading our camp to full time we keep revisiting our options for heating.

We are looking for thoughts and or expediences about geothermal heating.

Thoughts etc.. ?

We are currently using electric and a pellet stove on the first floor. We are currently using fans , drafts and quartz heaters to get heat up to the second floor.

House is about 2200 sq feet.

Right now we travel to NH every other weekend for 3 or 4 days at a time.[/QUOTE
Please PM me if you decide to go with geothermal. We retired up here and installed it in our home. We absolutely love it but we have learned some hard lessons. We would love to save our fellow forum members the same problems.

[tmm366]

We are currently building a house on Paugus bay. I looked into geothermal but decided on propane hot air. I was advised that geo was expensive to install, difficult to service, and had a long payback timeframe compared to gas. New gas furnaces are super efficient and we are installing foam insulation and Marvin windows. Only time will tell. Good luck. Tom.

[Merrymeeting]

What TMM366 said.

I have looked into geothermal several times over the years. I wanted to use it when we rebuilt our lake cabin into a retirement home. But as TMM said, we eventually concluded that the upfront costs were way too high, the payback would exceed our lifetimes, and we also went with forced hot air propane.

[BroadHopper]

There was a gas pipeline nearby. It was well worth paying the line to the house and coverting the furnace, hot water heater, stove, fireplace and dryer to natural gas. Natural gas is so inexpensive, at the most $130 a month, the payback is estimated 4 years!

[songkrai]

You don't state enough information about the current house.
Basement?
Upstairs? Open stud walls?

Do you have space for duct work?

Some use propane wall heaters or kerosene monitor heaters. There are floor propane heaters.

If money is not the object then all above who mentioned propane furnace are good.

Geothermal has issues in this climate and the payback is just not there.

[tis]

Originally Posted by songkrai

You don't state enough information about the current house.
Basement?
Upstairs? Open stud walls?

Do you have space for duct work?

Some use propane wall heaters or kerosene monitor heaters. There are floor propane heaters.

If money is not the object then all above who mentioned propane furnace are good.

Geothermal has issues in this climate and the payback is just not there.

That's pretty much what we kept hearing when we investigated it. "in this climate" We 're really too cold up here to be that efficiente. I know someone who got rid of it. I really wanted to do it, too.

[Belmont Resident]

If the place is not a full time residence then you do not want geothermal.
Also other things to consider are how the house was built, is it very well insulated?
Geothermal is not something you turn on and off or up and down, it takes hours maybe days to heat up and stabilize to temp.
I am right now re-painting inside a house that was built 7-8 years ago in Southdown, and it uses geothermal to heat and cool. It cost him a little over $1100 a year for heating and cooling costs for a 7500sqft home. Unbelievable for a house that size, but he also designed the house around the geothermal system pretty much.
Geothermal works great and there was or still maybe a lot of tax credit benefits to installing it, but I wouldn't recommend it for an older house or a small house or camp.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Belmont Resident

If the place is not a full time residence then you do not want geothermal.
Also other things to consider are how the house was built, is it very well insulated?
Geothermal is not something you turn on and off or up and down, it takes hours maybe days to heat up and stabilize to temp.
I am right now re-painting inside a house that was built 7-8 years ago in Southdown, and it uses geothermal to heat and cool. It cost him a little over $1100 a year for heating and cooling costs for a 7500sqft home. Unbelievable for a house that size, but he also designed the house around the geothermal system pretty much.
Geothermal works great and there was or still maybe a lot of tax credit benefits to installing it, but I wouldn't recommend it for an older house or a small house or camp.

That is very interesting. It obviously works for some. We were completely discouraged from using it.

[chasedawg]

We installed Geothermal in our home and absolutely love it. I know several other home owners that would agree with me. However, that being said, like always, you have to have a professional installer that has been trained specifically on Geothermal. When checking into Geothermal ourselves we hear stories about people who did not like Geothermal. It turns out their installation was not done properly. If they used a well for water source in some cases the well was not deep enough. The system was not sized properly, etc.
We heat 5000 sq ft. with 14' ceilings including garage which has radiant heat floors. The heat is a gentle heat. No cold spots. You set the temperature at 68 degrees and it never goes lower or higher. We were told that heating and cooling our home would cost us $5500 a year with gas or oil. We pay $1500 a year with Geothermal. That to me is a pretty good pay back. The survey was done by NH Coop. They did offer a $4500 rebate if you met certain qualifications. I'm not sure I would do it for a seasonal home on an island, however. Digging a well plus not having the house well insulated would not be worth it for me.

[tis]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

We installed Geothermal in our home and absolutely love it. I know several other home owners that would agree with me. However, that being said, like always, you have to have a professional installer that has been trained specifically on Geothermal. When checking into Geothermal ourselves we hear stories about people who did not like Geothermal. It turns out their installation was not done properly. If they used a well for water source in some cases the well was not deep enough. The system was not sized properly, etc.
We heat 5000 sq ft. with 14' ceilings including garage which has radiant heat floors. The heat is a gentle heat. No cold spots. You set the temperature at 68 degrees and it never goes lower or higher. We were told that heating and cooling our home would cost us $5500 a year with gas or oil. We pay $1500 a year with Geothermal. That to me is a pretty good pay back. The survey was done by NH Coop. They did offer a $4500 rebate if you met certain qualifications. I'm not sure I would do it for a seasonal home on an island, however. Digging a well plus not having the house well insulated would not be worth it for me.

Do you think your system would still work well if you set your thermostat higher? I couldn't stand 68, I would be frozen.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by tis

Do you think your system would still work well if you set your thermostat higher? I couldn't stand 68, I would be frozen.

TIS I wasn't trying to discourage just stating what I've learned from doing homework and talking with those who have it.
chasedawg pretty much summed up what I said.
And yes you can set the temp up higher then 68 but as mentioned it is not a system you turn the temp down when you leave then turn it back up when you return. It is meant to be set and stay at a specified temp as temperature changes tend to take hours depending on how much of a change you are looking for.
It is a great system and one that we will be looking at for our camp when we build it.

[DickR]

I have "geothermal" (ground source heat pump, or GSHP), and I love it. The thing is relatively quiet, and it just runs now and then to keep the house at even temperature. However, mine is a special case. The house is superinsulated, so the heat load is very, very low, compared to "ordinary" construction. GSHP was a good fit for the situation.

I always advocate making the house as stingy on heat loss as is reasonable to do so, before looking for a cheap source of heat for it. Conventional heating systems don't come in the wide range of capacities as do GSHP systems, and thus tend to be oversized for the house. With GSHP, each additional ton (12,000 BTU/hr) of heat load costs extra, due to the increased size of the ground connection and the unit size itself. Accordingly, A GSHP typically is sized to be no bigger than needed, so, yes, recovery from a temperature setback tends to be much longer than with the typically oversized conventional system.

For a GSHP, the ground connection can be in the form of a closed-loop "slinky" loop of black plastic pipe buried 6-8 feet or more in the ground. Depending on soil conditions, 200 feet of coil may be needed per ton of heat load. This takes a certain amount of backyard space, and around the lake this may not be as readily available as in other parts of the country. The other form of ground connection commonly used is a drilled well, the Standing Column Well (SCW) design, as in my case. We were going to have a new well for the house anyway, and with the superinsulated design of the house I knew the load would be small. For such a design, you need on the order of 80 feet of water column between draw and return per ton of heat load. The drilling cost can be considerable, a major portion of the total GSHP installation cost. In my case, the well didn't have to be any deeper than was needed for the house water supply; it's actually deeper than needed for the heat pump. The unit is a two-stage, two-ton unit, and it keeps the house (close to 4000 sqft) at temp in first stage only, through the coldest weather we've seen so far (it's in its second winter).

For an existing house, of conventional construction, GSHP would be a much tougher sell.

Songkrai, what did you mean by "Geothermal has issues in this climate?" One of the nice things about a GSHP is that below 6-8 feet underground the temperature is fairly steady and moderate (around 50 F) year round. If the ground connection is sized properly, that heat source stays at a fairly steady temperature and thus the efficiency and capacity of the unit remains steady throughout the year. In contrast, the efficiency (coefficient of performance, or COP) of an air source heat pump, like the Mitsubishi ones mentioned (good units) drops with outside air temperature. However, any heat pump is more "efficient" than straight electric resistance heating (baseboard, quartz heater, etc.), because a given amount of electric power is used to move some heat from outside to inside. You get, as heat, all of the electric power used by the heat pump plus whatever heat it drags in from outside.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by DickR

I have "geothermal" (ground source heat pump, or GSHP), and I love it. The thing is relatively quiet, and it just runs now and then to keep the house at even temperature. However, mine is a special case. The house is superinsulated, so the heat load is very, very low, compared to "ordinary" construction. GSHP was a good fit for the situation.

I always advocate making the house as stingy on heat loss as is reasonable to do so, before looking for a cheap source of heat for it. Conventional heating systems don't come in the wide range of capacities as do GSHP systems, and thus tend to be oversized for the house. With GSHP, each additional ton (12,000 BTU/hr) of heat load costs extra, due to the increased size of the ground connection and the unit size itself. Accordingly, A GSHP typically is sized to be no bigger than needed, so, yes, recovery from a temperature setback tends to be much longer than with the typically oversized conventional system.

For a GSHP, the ground connection can be in the form of a closed-loop "slinky" loop of black plastic pipe buried 6-8 feet or more in the ground. Depending on soil conditions, 200 feet of coil may be needed per ton of heat load. This takes a certain amount of backyard space, and around the lake this may not be as readily available as in other parts of the country. The other form of ground connection commonly used is a drilled well, the Standing Column Well (SCW) design, as in my case. We were going to have a new well for the house anyway, and with the superinsulated design of the house I knew the load would be small. For such a design, you need on the order of 80 feet of water column between draw and return per ton of heat load. The drilling cost can be considerable, a major portion of the total GSHP installation cost. In my case, the well didn't have to be any deeper than was needed for the house water supply; it's actually deeper than needed for the heat pump. The unit is a two-stage, two-ton unit, and it keeps the house (close to 4000 sqft) at temp in first stage only, through the coldest weather we've seen so far (it's in its second winter).

For an existing house, of conventional construction, GSHP would be a much tougher sell.

Songkrai, what did you mean by "Geothermal has issues in this climate?" One of the nice things about a GSHP is that below 6-8 feet underground the temperature is fairly steady and moderate (around 50 F) year round. If the ground connection is sized properly, that heat source stays at a fairly steady temperature and thus the efficiency and capacity of the unit remains steady throughout the year. In contrast, the efficiency (coefficient of performance, or COP) of an air source heat pump, like the Mitsubishi ones mentioned (good units) drops with outside air temperature. However, any heat pump is more "efficient" than straight electric resistance heating (baseboard, quartz heater, etc.), because a given amount of electric power is used to move some heat from outside to inside. You get, as heat, all of the electric power used by the heat pump plus whatever heat it drags in from outside.

The homeowner in Southdown had a well drilled just for the geothermal system. The the house is on town water and sewer.

[SIKSUKR]

Geo has zero issues with climate.The beauty of it is the heat(btu) source is always the same temp year round.Unlike above ground heat pumps that have limitations on ambient outside air temps.My partners system is fantastic.His made a much shorter payback when he installed it 7? years ago because of all the energy credits offered at that time.Another bonus is it has its own electrical panel(though more upfront $) that has a substantialy reduced rate from the rest of the house usage.

[songkrai]

What was the total cost of installation?

[nhboat61]

!st, thank you for all the information. This makes a good read and helps us think about the options.

So, from what I understand to this point, the ground water is around 55-65 degrees, then I suspect that we would need something to heat up that water to say 70. Thayt would then need to install water baseboard heating ? Circulator pumps and the such.

This is starting to sound like it is better to have this installed in new construction, then a 50 yr old house .

[songkrai]

Here is some more information.

"Drilling Costs

Drilling costs for a geothermal pump system can run from $10,000 to $30,000, depending on the size of the system and the type of ground that has to be drilled. These drilling costs have to be added to the cost of the heat pump system when calculating the total cost of a geothermal heat pump installation.


System Cost

Geothermal heat pump systems cost around $2500 to $3000 per ton of capacity. Given that an average to somewhat larger home will require three tons of heating/cooling capacity, the cost comes to about $7500 to $9000 for the actual geothermal heat pump equipment.


Cost Comparison

Assuming average costs, the total cost of a three-ton geothermal heat pump system would be $8250 for the heat pump and $15,000 for the drilling, for a total of $23,250. A traditional electrical heating and cooling system costs around $4000 a ton, so an equivalent three-ton traditional heating/cooling system would cost around $12,000. However, keep in mind that the utility bills of homeowners with geothermal heat pump systems tend to average 20 to 30 percent less than homeowners with traditional heat/cooling systems. Assuming a savings of $80 a month on your utilities, the extra $12,000 you paid up front for the geothermal pump system will be recouped in 13 years (and geothermal pump systems last 20 to 25 years, on average)."



LINK

[The kitchen guy]

I am a builder and I have installed a few systems. As everyone else has said, it is not cost effective except for my customers who got tax incentives from the federal government and rebates from the public service.

It works best with radiant heat through gypcrete and your house is existing without that feature. It also needs to be in a house with very good insulation (like closed cell foam).

At the end of the day it works like a heat pump by removing heat from cold water. It requires at least one well and is essentially electric heat. It does not work efficiently in very cold weather so additional heaters are required.

If you are looking for it to be cost effective you need someone else to pay for it.

I think the future for cost effective heat will be in gas (l.p. or natural). It is low in maintenance and increasing in abundance. Good luck.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by The kitchen guy

It does not work efficiently in very cold weather so additional heaters are required.

Thank you for this perspective.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by The kitchen guy

I am a builder and I have installed a few systems. As everyone else has said, it is not cost effective except for my customers who got tax incentives from the federal government and rebates from the public service.

It works best with radiant heat through gypcrete and your house is existing without that feature. It also needs to be in a house with very good insulation (like closed cell foam).

At the end of the day it works like a heat pump by removing heat from cold water. It requires at least one well and is essentially electric heat. It does not work efficiently in very cold weather so additional heaters are required.

If you are looking for it to be cost effective you need someone else to pay for it.

I think the future for cost effective heat will be in gas (l.p. or natural). It is low in maintenance and increasing in abundance. Good luck.

I can only advise from my 3 years using Geothermal heating. I have never had to use additional heaters in cold weather. The difference could be the type of installation, size of system or make of Geothermal equipment.

I would never go back to fossil fuel heating source. I don' worry about fumes, no need to clean boiler ever year and maintenance is very low. It is interesting the new Kingswood school complex in Wolfeboro installed Geothermal in all of the new four school buildings. Remember insulation for any heating system is a key component. It is better " To save a BTU than to create a BTU"

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

It is better to save a BTU than to create a BTU"

I agree, but wondering about that this year...

I've been pleasantly surprised at how efficient our new home and system is, and how little we've used this year.

BUT!!! Gas and propane prices are based on usage. As a result of decreased burning, my rate is going up. Something wrong with this picture.

[The kitchen guy]

Hi Chasedawg:

The heater is built into your equipment. You are right about the quiet system with no fumes but you are using fossil fuels, coal and nuclear to heat your house. You have to understand where electricity comes from - whatever is feeding the grid. Just because you cant smell it does not mean its not being used.

The wells required for Kingswood cost millions of dollars. It was a ridiculous waste of money at the taxpayers expense and a poor example for the point. The system will never make a return on the investment but we will be paying for it for years to come. Sorry but that system is a sore spot with me.

Was your house built for the system or did you retrofit? You put yours in at the right time to get the credits and rebates.

[tis]

You are not the only guy, kitchen guy. I heard so many people say what you just said, I can't tell you. I really don't know, only what I hear. I heard it will eventually cause a lot of trouble and is very expensive to repair too. Just what I have heard.

[BroadHopper]

The geothermal owners on this website have low maintenance. I friend of mine in Belmont install one of the first geothermals in the area back in the late '80's. The unit was costing him so much money that he finally shut it down. he originally spent about $20,000 for the unit and the wells.

Could it be the earlier units are unreliable?

[tmm366]

When designing our new house my architect, builder and hvac contractor advised against geothermal. It was also difficult to get an upfront price due to all the variables. It did seem that a lot of the appeal was based on govt rebates which I don't know if they are still available. The hvac contractor warned that there were a limited number of people qualified to service these units. Anyway we opted for propane based on this info.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by The kitchen guy

Hi Chasedawg:

The heater is built into your equipment. You are right about the quiet system with no fumes but you are using fossil fuels, coal and nuclear to heat your house. You have to understand where electricity comes from - whatever is feeding the grid. Just because you cant smell it does not mean its not being used.

The wells required for Kingswood cost millions of dollars. It was a ridiculous waste of money at the taxpayers expense and a poor example for the point. The system will never make a return on the investment but we will be paying for it for years to come. Sorry but that system is a sore spot with me.

Was your house built for the system or did you retrofit? You put yours in at the right time to get the credits and rebates.

I went to many meetings during the planning and building of Kingswood and one thing that sticks out in my mind is when the Chair of the Building Committee Ernie Brown explained that though the geothermal system is expensive to install initially, it will have a relatively quick return on the investment. He said that according to current costs it will only take seven to eight years to payback, after which the school and taxpayers will benefit from the system's lower operating cost.

Was "Ernie Brown" wrong?

Evidently you have done some research about the difference in costs for heating and cooling systems for Kingswood other than geothermal. Could you share this data with us and give a comparison as to how much money Kingswood would have saved if they went your way.

[Fargo]

If builders paid closer attention to insulation and air sealing, you'd be able to downsize the heating system. Just attended the Better Building by Design conference in Vt. The best performing homes were insulated with dense packed cellulose it appeared.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by Fargo

If builders paid closer attention to insulation and air sealing, you'd be able to downsize the heating system. Just attended the Better Building by Design conference in Vt. The best performing homes were insulated with dense packed cellulose it appeared.

I did just that with one home. Engineer analysis.

The end result was a lower BTU furnace. The furnace ran more and ultimately failed in a much shorter time then a higher BTU furnace that ran less.

[ursa minor]

A little background, I'm a commercial HVAC contractor. Geothermal systems that are properly engineered and installed can be an extremely efficient method of heating and cooling. They're very well suited to colder climates because they take advantage of the relatively constant temperature of the ground water, usually around 50 degrees F. That being said, they are very complex mechanical systems that consist of a well field, pumps, water source heat pump unit (or units) and controls. For the system to work properly, all parts of the system need to be properly sized and maintained. New construction is the most common place that these systems are seen and as mentioned in several posts above, they work best when combined with a good building envelope (super insulation, premium windows, etc.).

While it would not be impossible to retrofit a geothermal system into an older home, it would typically be five to six times the cost of installing a more conventional high efficiency gas or propane conversion furnace. (See the "not in our lifetime" payback comments above.) Another alternative to consider would be a premium efficiency oil fired boiler / hot water heating system as it's sometimes it's easier to route piping and baseboard in an older home than to fit duct work.

I'll also second the comments of several other posters that finding a contractor with a proven track record of installing and maintaining geothermal systems would be extremely important. Good luck and whichever type of system you choose, be sure to get estimates from reputable contractors that will stand behind and service their work.

[Charlie T]

[QUOTE=ursa minor;198815] Another alternative to consider would be a premium efficiency oil fired boiler / hot water heating system as it's sometimes it's easier to route piping and baseboard in an older home than to fit duct work.

Ursa,
You sound well versed in heating, What brands of Premium Efficiency Oil fired boiler do you recommend. I've researched the subject and found so much conflicting info that it's discouraging. My hope is to next year select a new boiler and then find a expert contractor thru manufacturer referals as well as local word of mouth referals.

Thanks

C T

[tmm366]

I totally agree about insulation. We are installing a combination of foam, fiberglass and cellulose. The contractor called it a hybrid system which has the highest R value. Combined with Marvin windows we are hoping for reasonable heat and cooling costs.

[ursa minor]

Charlie,

I don't want to hijack the geothermal thread too much and since I'm mostly in the commercial world, I don't have as much first hand experience with the premium residential oil boilers as I probably should. That being said, the Viessmann and Buderus (European) brands are very popular with high end residential contractors. They've really refined the design of their cast iron boilers to optimize efficiency and they combine their boilers and burners with very sophisticated controls to adjust the heating water supply temperature as the outdoor air temperature changes. The downside to this can be a limited contractor pool and expensive proprietary parts when service is required. For the rest of us, it's hard to beat a properly sized Weil McLain boiler with a Beckett oil burner. Any certified oil burner tech should be able to work on one and parts are readily available. Stay warm during "snowmageddon"

[The kitchen guy]

Originally Posted by Rusty

I went to many meetings during the planning and building of Kingswood and one thing that sticks out in my mind is when the Chair of the Building Committee Ernie Brown explained that though the geothermal system is expensive to install initially, it will have a relatively quick return on the investment. He said that according to current costs it will only take seven to eight years to payback, after which the school and taxpayers will benefit from the system's lower operating cost.

Was "Ernie Brown" wrong?

Evidently you have done some research about the difference in costs for heating and cooling systems for Kingswood other than geothermal. Could you share this data with us and give a comparison as to how much money Kingswood would have saved if they went your way.

If you are asking my opinion, I say yes he was wrong. There is nothing I know of that would make the system work better at Kingswood than anywhere else. If the return on geothermal systems were 7 years anywhere, it would be wildly popular. I live in New Durham and the taxes I pay have nearly doubled since that complex was built. Half my taxes go to the GWRSD.

You were there. How about posting the information that convinced you this was a good idea. I will say this, for the price of the wells which no other system needs, you could by an awful lot of fossil fuel. Think about it.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by The kitchen guy

If you are asking my opinion, I say yes he was wrong. There is nothing I know of that would make the system work better at Kingswood than anywhere else. If the return on geothermal systems were 7 years anywhere, it would be wildly popular. I live in New Durham and the taxes I pay have nearly doubled since that complex was built. Half my taxes go to the GWRSD.

You were there. How about posting the information that convinced you this was a good idea. I will say this, for the price of the wells which no other system needs, you could by an awful lot of fossil fuel. Think about it.

I never said that it was a good, or bad idea. I voted yes for the the whole Kingswood package and geothermal was a part of it. I really don't know that much about geothermal so I depended on the leaders of the project to say that it was a good thing. So far all the information that I have read about it looks positive. The Grunter has a good article about it in this weeks paper.

So I'll ask you again: "Could you share this data with us and give a comparison as to how much money Kingswood would have saved if they went your way."

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Merrymeeting

I agree, but wondering about that this year...

I've been pleasantly surprised at how efficient our new home and system is, and how little we've used this year.

BUT!!! Gas and propane prices are based on usage. As a result of decreased burning, my rate is going up. Something wrong with this picture.

Oil price is based on market conditions, not usage. Propane price is based on usage and the greed of your provider.

Propane pricing starts typically based on the Selkirk index. Selkirk is a terminal in NY that supplies much of the propane to the northeast. The Selkirk wholesale price on 2/4 was $1.15 per gallon. For those that are paying $2.79-3.29 as others have posted in another thread this should be an eye opener as to how badly you are getting hit. I am locked at $2.19, and when I finish combining with my company supply based on the combined usage I will be at $1.72-1.79. At home though I am trending 14-18 gallons a day between the furnace and rinnai.

I stress that owning your own tank can be highly beneficial as when the provider is supplying the tank you are paying for it per gallon and cannot shop around.

Typical oil margins are only around $.30-.40 per gallon.

Getting back to geothermal, Quest geothermal recently opened in Somersworth. They are Canadian based and have done hundreds if not thousands of systems north of the border. They are relatively new here and have only done a few locally. I am talking to them about retrofitting our house. We do have a new propane system but I am looking at my options to make sure I made the right choice in the end. Our system now is rather unique and complex, and heating in general here has been expensive and tough.

Being only 10 years old I think I live in the most drafty house I have ever seen. I have Anderson windows and doors, but think that if my walls could talk they would tell me that my insulation job was crap.

[chasedawg]

Codeman671 is it true that a Canadian geothermal company opened an office in NH or in the lakes region? Should someone tell them that geothermal systems work in Canada but the rumor is and people are hearing that geothermal does not work in NH it's too cold here! Do you want to tell them? I'm sure they would thank you for the tip.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Codeman671 is it true that a Canadian geothermal company opened an office in NH or in the lakes region? Should someone tell them that geothermal systems work in Canada but the rumor is and people are hearing that geothermal does not work in NH it's too cold here! Do you want to tell them? I'm sure they would thank you for the tip.

Good point chasedawg.

A Spanish company builds wind turbines for us and now a Canadian company is going to promote and put in geothermal systems for us.

It looks like the only thing we do well is complain because there isn't any work in this country.

BTW, The Federal Government is still offering a 30% tax credit for the installation of a ground source (Geothermal) heat pump until the end of 2016. There is no cap to the amount and it includes ductwork, piping, wiring etc etc. If the tax credit exceeds the income tax liability the balance can we moved forward into future years.

1. The tax credit applies to both new home construction and retrofitting an existing homes heating/cooling system
2. The tax credit applies to both primary residences and secondary homes and vacation properties
3. To qualify the geothermal heat pump must comply with ENERGY STAR ratings
– Closed Loop >=3.3 COP; >=14.1 EER
– Open Loop >=3.6 COP; >=16.2 EER
4. Water to water geothermal heat pumps are covered by the tax credit

[chasedawg]

Thanks Rusty for this information. I was not aware of these rebates when I installed my system. It probably applies only to primary homes. We built our retirement home and was still living in MA.
I would still go with Geothermal without the rebates. My ROI in 3 years is now in excess of what it would have cost with oil or a propane German high efficient system.
I turned up the heat to over 75 degrees last night because we had relatives from Ga. during the blizzard. The house was so warm that they ask if I could turn down the heat. I don't know why my geothermal system behaves like it does. Interesting I don't even have a separate heating unit like The Kitchen Guy said I did. I just don't understand how he knew I had one installed. I don't think he has ever been to my house. At least I don't think he has. But he is welcome anytime

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Codeman671 is it true that a Canadian geothermal company opened an office in NH or in the lakes region? Should someone tell them that geothermal systems work in Canada but the rumor is and people are hearing that geothermal does not work in NH it's too cold here! Do you want to tell them? I'm sure they would thank you for the tip.

Seriously, go troll somewhere else... The fact that a company opened up only 30 minutes south of Alton, but services the lakes region and the parent company has more experience installing geothermal systems than anyone else in the region seemed pertinent to the thread concerning geothermal to me.

I have no affiliation with them, or any other geothermal company. You and rusty will be great friends.

Nice to see your 3rd post to this forum was so enlightening.

[chasedawg]

Rusty. I just read your post again. From your information I might be able to capture these GOVT rebates you mentioned. Are you sure they are available for second homes or vacation homes?

[ITD]

I see lots of claims in this thread with no numbers to back them up. Sounds too good to be true, but how can I tell if I am wrong????

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by nhboat61

!st, thank you for all the information. This makes a good read and helps us think about the options.

So, from what I understand to this point, the ground water is around 55-65 degrees, then I suspect that we would need something to heat up that water to say 70. Thayt would then need to install water baseboard heating ? Circulator pumps and the such.

This is starting to sound like it is better to have this installed in new construction, then a 50 yr old house .

Geothermal is not baseboard heat! Geothermal uses duct work to bring the heated air in.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by ITD

I see lots of claims in this thread with no numbers to back them up. Sounds too good to be true, but how can I tell if I am wrong????

From what I read almost all of those who have this love it.

Some who are interested may not see any benefit.

Some state that this is better only in new home construction.

I have yet to read an actual cost of installation - total dollars for a specific home.

[chasedawg]

Sorry that my post was misinterpreted. Codeman671 was extremely pertinent. The fact that Quest Geothermal installs geothermal systems in Canada and now in NH is significant. Some folks on this thread believe that Geothermal doesn't work in cold weather. I think there is confusion on the old heat pumps that were place outside a home. I had one at one time and it was awful. If the temperature got below 32 degrees in won' t work and a electric coil would kick in costing much more to heat.

I will post later today the cost of my system. I have a 6 ton system that is both water to air and water to water. I have radiant heat in my concrete slab in my garage. The temperature in my garage stays at 65 degrees all winter long. It is what is called water to water.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Fargo

If builders paid closer attention to insulation and air sealing, you'd be able to downsize the heating system. Just attended the Better Building by Design conference in Vt. The best performing homes were insulated with dense packed cellulose it appeared.

I recently built 5+ Star rated home in the area. It was designed to 2010 RBC energy construction. The big problem was the current RBC code in town was RBC 2004 and the building inspector wouldn't work with me.

Anyway, PSNH had an engineer worked with us in energy efficiency every step of the way. Geothermal and solar panels were ruled out because of the shoreline protection act. The home was was built on the footprint of an existing building within 50 feet of the waterline. The engineer determined that the Mitsubishi unit will be the most efficient year round unit until the outside temperature reaches 20 degrees. Below 20 degrees a System 2000 propane unit kicks in. The System 2000 also provides domestic hot water. The clothes dryer and kitchen stove are also propane.

At the time of construction (2010), I had a tough time finding contractors in this area that are willing to work with me. Most of the contractors had the 'Why knock yourself out, when your going to sell it in a few years anyway, you can't take it with you' attitude. This is the biggest reason why I decided not to build any more homes. I heard too many horror stories from homeowners who had their homes recently built. The homes are fine during the first year, when by law the construction is guaranteed. After the first year, the builders either don't return your call or blame it on the material manufacturer. You can't win. The last home I built, its been 3 years, I had a couple of calls and I make it a point to drive out and personally inspect the problem and rectify it.

In a nutshell? Call PSNH for an energy review. You can also get in touch with UNH and ask for a second opinion. A builder I know built his house with geothermal. He wish he had consulted the experts before deciding as today he wished he had not install geothermal.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by The kitchen guy

At the end of the day it works like a heat pump by removing heat from cold water. It requires at least one well and is essentially electric heat. It does not work efficiently in very cold weather so additional heaters are required.

I think the future for cost effective heat will be in gas (l.p. or natural). It is low in maintenance and increasing in abundance.

I think it is misleading to say it is "essentially electric heat". While electricity powers the unit it doesn't provide the heat.

Why would it not work efficiently in very cold weather? The ground water remains at a fairly constant temperature year round so the "efficiency" of the system should remain constant as well. I believe what you may have meant is that the system is not good at providing large amounts of heat on demand. Therefore, if the house is not well insulated, as it gets very cold the heat loss of the house exceeds the "instant" replacement ability of the geothermal unit. It's the nature of the geothermal units to provide a steady moderate amount of heat. It is the efficiency of the house insulation that is the failure point, not the geothermal unit. As others have pointed out, the units work best with a modern, very well insulated home.

I agree with your take on natural gas, IF the federal government doesn't screw it up. However, gas is still an carbon emission source, no matter how cleanly it burns. Geothermal is much less so because the heating is a transfer process rather than a burning process. Yes, some electricity, often from a carbon burning plant, is used to power the process, but much less than with burning fuels to provide heat.

I played around with heat pumps in the early 1990s. I got burned and had to eventually trash the unit and lost about $7000. The systems are far better today but the key thing is to get a unit from a major manufacturer and a local installer who has been around for a while and knows the product and is comfortable with installing and maintaining it.

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I think it is misleading to say it is "essentially electric heat". While electricity powers the unit it doesn't provide the heat.

Why would it not work efficiently in very cold weather? The ground water remains at a fairly constant temperature year round so the "efficiency" of the system should remain constant as well. I believe what you may have meant is that the system is not good at providing large amounts of heat on demand. Therefore, if the house is not well insulated, as it gets very cold the heat loss of the house exceeds the "instant" replacement ability of the geothermal unit. It's the nature of the geothermal units to provide a steady moderate amount of heat. It is the efficiency of the house insulation that is the failure point, not the geothermal unit. As others have pointed out, the units work best with a modern, very well insulated home.

I agree with your take on natural gas, IF the federal government doesn't screw it up. However, gas is still an carbon emission source, no matter how cleanly it burns. Geothermal is much less so because the heating is a transfer process rather than a burning process. Yes, some electricity, often from a carbon burning plant, is used to power the process, but much less than with burning fuels to provide heat.

I played around with heat pumps in the early 1990s. I got burned and had to eventually trash the unit and lost about $7000. The systems are far better today but the key thing is to get a unit from a major manufacturer and a local installer who has been around for a while and knows the product and is comfortable with installing and maintaining it.

Jeff I was told the same thing about cold weather. I'm not talking 20's but down near zero and below. I'm working on house now that has geo. and the homeowner concurred that in extreme cold you do need a back-up heat source. They have extremely efficient wood fireplaces on 2 floors to supplement the heat when it is really cold out. As mentioned in a earlier post this house was built around the heating system and was tested and almost required an air exchanger it is so tight.

[jeffk]

I accept what you are saying but speaking as as an engineer it doesn't make any sense that units would loose efficiency in the cold unless the ground water temperature is cooled so much in the well that it can't recover quickly enough? Either that or it's a sizing problem. Even a well insulated house loses heat and it may have been a choice to increase the tonnage, at significant additional cost, to cope with the coldest weather or cheaper to put in secondary heat to deal with it.

Mostly just curious about why this would be a problem.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I accept what you are saying but speaking as as an engineer it doesn't make any sense that units would loose efficiency in the cold unless the ground water temperature is cooled so much in the well that it can't recover quickly enough? Either that or it's a sizing problem. Even a well insulated house loses heat and it may have been a choice to increase the tonnage, at significant additional cost, to cope with the coldest weather or cheaper to put in secondary heat to deal with it.

Mostly just curious about why this would be a problem.

I am also speaking as an engineer and I don't understand it either.

[P-3 Guy]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Rusty. I just read your post again. From your information I might be able to capture these GOVT rebates you mentioned. Are you sure they are available for second homes or vacation homes?

Here's a link to the IRS form (with instructions) that you use to claim the tax credit for geothermal costs:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f5695.pdf

For the geothermal part of the credit, the instructions specifically say that the installation does not have to be in your main home.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by jeffk

I accept what you are saying but speaking as as an engineer it doesn't make any sense that units would loose efficiency in the cold unless the ground water temperature is cooled so much in the well that it can't recover quickly enough? Either that or it's a sizing problem. Even a well insulated house loses heat and it may have been a choice to increase the tonnage, at significant additional cost, to cope with the coldest weather or cheaper to put in secondary heat to deal with it.

Mostly just curious about why this would be a problem.

I wonder if the issue is heat loss from the ground heat source into the cold ground near the surface. I'm familiar with the geothermal concept but not the practical application so I'm sure I'll be corrected if I am wrong. What I think could happen is that the heat pump portion of the system is probably located outside, the transfer liquid from the well or loop travels through the ground to the surface and inevitably passes through the cold ground and possibly the air. At very cold temperatures, enough heat could be lost to hamper the efficiency of the system. One way to prevent this would be to keep the pipes below the frost line and move the heat pump into a cellar, but then there would be an issue with waste heat being a problem in the building in the summertime.

[ITD]

Just did a little more looking at systems. You can buy the heat pump, tubing manifolds and airhandler for a 5 ton system for under $9,000.00, you just dig the holes, bury the pipes then install the system. I'm thinking about another 2 to 3 thousand for ducts, wiring and other parts and you have a system. That is if you can figure out the rest.....

These companies make no reference of secondary heating required, I'm starting to think that systems needing this are probably not sized right. The biggest system I could find here was a 5 ton system. Which could be marginal for a larger house, an installer putting in two of these systems might have to price himself out of competition with a fossil system. Anyway, interesting stuff.

http://ingramswaterandair.com/index.php

[Belmont Resident]

Originally Posted by ITD

Just did a little more looking at systems. You can buy the heat pump, tubing manifolds and airhandler for a 5 ton system for under $9,000.00, you just dig the holes, bury the pipes then install the system. I'm thinking about another 2 to 3 thousand for ducts, wiring and other parts and you have a system. That is if you can figure out the rest.....

These companies make no reference of secondary heating required, I'm starting to think that systems needing this are probably not sized right. The biggest system I could find here was a 5 ton system. Which could be marginal for a larger house, an installer putting in two of these systems might have to price himself out of competition with a fossil system. Anyway, interesting stuff.

http://ingramswaterandair.com/index.php

You are all correct and I cannot answer that question. But I will talk with the homeowner and ask him why this happens.
I do know what he did a lot of research before hand and the unit to the best of my knowledge is sized correctly for the 7K+ sqft home.

[jeffk]

I did a little poking around and came across a company in Minnesota that does geothermal and they explain cold weather issues on their web site.

First, in cold temps the system runs for a long time and the ground around the system loop cools faster than the ambient 50 - 55 degrees can restore. So the loop water DOES get cooler and the heat pumping process becomes less efficient.

There are a couple ways to deal with this. First, simply make the loop longer to provide a larger heat reservoir. Of course this costs more. Maybe it's cheaper to simply throw a backup heat source into the design to handle the colder temps. You trade lower initial cost for higher operating cost. The key of course is hitting the right balance point. You don't want to be using the backup frequently and losing the cost efficiencies of the geothermal. In some installations it might not be possible to have a larger loop and the installer just puts in a backup system to deal with colder temps. Not a problem if he is honest and up front about it.

The second way to deal with it is more interesting. Heat pumps started in the south, primarily as cooling units that could also heat. They were designed with cooling in mind. However, come up north and that gets flipped around. Here, heating is primary with a bit of cooling tossed in. When you design for heating you can get far better heat extraction. Some companies (GeoSystems is the one the Minnesota company uses) realized this and redesigned part of their line for cold weather use and are able to get far better heat extraction in cold weather. The Minnesota company claims they can provide 100% of heating using geothermal although they still recommend a backup heat source anyway. So, not all heat pumps are created equal. Even a good company may not make heat pumps that work best in cold climates.

I now understand some of the issues and possible solutions.

Here is the link to the company web site.

[ITD]

That makes sense Jeff, of course that is also a sizing issue although not what I was thinking about. The materials and labor for providing a larger loop is minimal once you have the equipment on site, so maybe lot size is an issue. I think a system that uses lake water or wells would not be prone to this. I still think that heat loss before the ground source fluid gets to the heat exchanger plays a part in this also. All of the systems I have researched have the pipes penetrate the surface and have at least a few feet of pipe in open air with just some foam around it.

[Merrymeeting]

I had researched much of this before and the last few posts hit the core of the issue and potential expense.

With ground source loops, you need a LOT of area. Usually this means having a lot of land, clearing a lot of trees, disturbing a lot of the land, etc. I.e., expensive. Not to mention the mentioned issue of cooling of the land mass during heavy use.

The water/well systems are a better heat source. But usually you are looking at drilling a deep well, usually separate from your potable water source. Often, depending on configuration and state/town laws, you may need a second well for discharge. Unless you have a closed loop system, clogging of the pumps and circulators can be an issue, depending on the water. With both closed and open systems, contamination of the water source is a concern. Once again, expensive.

As attractive as the potential fuel savings can be, for most, the upfront costs are usually too high and the payback too long to make it viable.

[MilhouseEnterprises]

A customer of mine asked me to set the record straight, there is a lot of discussion about Geothermal Heating and Cooling on here, and most of what I have read is very VERY incorrect or greatly exaggerated. First, Geothermal works great no matter what the temperature is outside, because it is not effected by the outside temperature. Period. Second, I will partially agree that some companies are quoting geothermal systems to lakes region customers at very high rates because they feel you can afford to pay more, and this makes the payback look unrealistic, personally I think this is a terrible way to do business as it hurts everyone in the industry, and hurts the economy. I have been installing Geothermal systems for hundreds of satisfied customers for over 10 years, with 20 years in the heating and cooling business, the average house we do as a retrofit is a 5-7 year payback, and I have plenty of customers that would be happy to show you the results. A new construction home actually makes you money on the install because of the incentives, so the payback is immediate. Yes, upfront costs are a little more during construction, but there are programs that the banks offer that allow you to get lower interest loans to compensate, and there are incentives that pay back the costs within 45 days of the occupancy permit, so you only have to "float" the extra costs for a short period of time. The comments about geothermal not being good for a seasonal home are insane. I can't think of a better system, no reliance on fuel! no risk of fuel leak and fire!! higher reliability and simple backup!!! I have also been teaching Geothermal and other alternative energy solutions to Architects and Engineers for many years, and would be happy to sit down with anyone interested and explain how it works, the costs, the payback etc. making everyone the expert, because the more you know the better decisions you can make. If anyone is interested in learning the truth, I do not charge for this, I can show you all the facts about Geothermal, and make you an expert. Please feel free to e-mail me at Chris@milhouseenterprises.com or call me directly @ 603-300-2943. We are located in Belmont NH and service all of the lakes region and southern NH.

[ITD]

Thanks for posting Milhouse, good to hear from an expert. As one skilled and practicing in the field, is what Jeffk describes in his post about undersized loops something that happens or has happened? Also, for a lake house, is it easy in NH to use lake water as the heat/cooling source ? Finally is there a retrofit for force hot water systems?

[MilhouseEnterprises]

Yes, frequently installers try to cut expense by undersizing the loop, this causes the system to fail when demand is high, unfortunately there are a lot of installers that were never formally trained in design, they just read a book and decided it was easy to add geothermal to their business. So to put it plainly, there are more bad installers out there than good ones. 99% of the mistakes in a Geothermal system are in the well (Loop).

Geothermal can be retrofitted to a hot water system, you just don't get the air conditioning benefits. Its referred to as a water to water geothermal heat pump.

NH lakes cannot be used, no because it is not viable, but because the State will not permit it. All properly installed geothermal systems in NH will have a drilled well, and this is usually also the potable water well, despite the postings people have put here saying you can't use it for your water well, that is not true, we recommend you use it for the water well if the well produces enough water. Systems that were installed with a ground loop in NH will fail, this is only supposed to be used for areas that do not fall below 30 degrees often, or areas where only cooling is needed, this is why it is common in Florida, but ground loops should never be done in NH unless you only want cooling. Unfortunately there are installers out there that do this because it is less expensive, but it is not the right way to do it and is why they use back up heat. If a system is designed properly, back up heat is not needed at all.

[MilhouseEnterprises]

I noticed in one of the postings that drilled wells and open loops were discouraged because of pump issues. The reality: Especially in a seasonal home that goes long periods of time without the pump cycling, a Geothermal system that will cycle the pump often extends the life of the pump. Its a simple concept that can be compared to a car, drive a car every day and it lasts a long time, leave the car sitting for a few months, and it has issues.

As far as clogging pumps, the only thing that would do that is Iron bacteria, and the only way this would occur is if there were an air leak in the system causing the water to oxygenate (or if the wrong piping was used). If proper oxygen barrier piping is used, this doesn't happen, and the pump will last 16-20 years just as any normal well pump does.

[RLW]

MilhouseEnterprises, I just noticed that you are fairly new to posting on the forum and glad you have joined us. Have fun and enjoy the Winni Forum while making many new friends.

[jeffk]

Thank you very much Milhouse. It's great to have a successful installer chime in.

I would ask if geothermal systems need much ongoing maintenance? My guess would be, probably not. I don't maintain a well pump or A/C unit very much. Maybe a lube or refrigerant check. But from what I read, most of these systems come with monitors that will tell you if anything is out of whack. That could be a saving as well, no annual burner cleaning (oil).

Another point I would make is that a significant part of the up front cost is drilling the well. Wells generally don't wear out. The pumps and compressors may need to be replaced (in around 20 years) but the second go round will be much cheaper because the well and loop piping is already done. Also, in heat pump units, if the compressor goes you often replace just the compressor, the rest of the unit can be left in place. Correct? Oil or propane burning units are usually completely replaced (worn out?) after 20 years of service. Bigger and more expensive job.

So if you are in this for the really long haul, comparative costs could be even more competitive.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by MilhouseEnterprises

Yes, frequently installers try to cut expense by undersizing the loop, this causes the system to fail when demand is high, unfortunately there are a lot of installers that were never formally trained in design, they just read a book and decided it was easy to add geothermal to their business. So to put it plainly, there are more bad installers out there than good ones. 99% of the mistakes in a Geothermal system are in the well (Loop).

So in your opinion there aren't too many good geothermal installers because they don't know what they are doing. A lot of them just read a book and then go into the business. Consequently in your opinion there are more bad installers then good ones.

I stopped reading your post from that point on.

It's OK to separate your workmanship from your competitors and to educate your customers about the differences between how you do things, however just to say "there are more bad installers then good ones" is not a very tactful way of communicating your differences.

[BroadHopper]

FYI, from my experience that are a lot of bad contractors in general in the area, not just geothermal. Everyone says they are the best, they are only in for the buck.

There are a few excellent contractors and they are spread about.

As I mentioned previously, do your homework, consult the engineers.

[jeffk]

A geothermal system can easily cost over $30,000. The success of the ability of the system to be able to properly heat the house and provide a reasonable payback period seems to be largely up to the proper sizing of the system and that rests squarely on the shoulders of the contractor. Further, there is no easy fix for a poorly sized system. What are you going to do, drill another well? In addition, from the discussion on this thread there seems to be a lot of variation on the success of the installations and the efficiency of the systems installed.

MilhouseEnterprises might have been blunt when he said that many contractors don't know how to properly install a geothermal system but I think he may be accurate. The success of plunking down $30K+ on a geothermal system rests largely on the capability of the contractor. He sure the heck better know what he is doing. Anyone considering such an installation cannot afford to trust an installer on blind trust but needs to thoroughly check them out. MilhouseEnterprises is telling us "buyer beware" and with that much money at stake, we should.

[tis]

I don't know the whole deal, but in talking to a local well driller, he was going to a new house that is being built on the lake to dig 10 wells. I don't know if these were test wells or they were all going to be used. I thought they were all going to be used, but I could have misunderstood.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by jeffk

A geothermal system can easily cost over $30,000.

Thanks for posting some sort of cost.

My propane furnace was installed over 25 years ago. Broke only one time. Thermocoupler. Not expensive.
I paid $1,800 for furnace, duct work, installation.
This is the type that has a pilot. Very simple technology. No circuit boards.
It just keeps going and going.
I had it professionally cleaned this past summer. Actually took circular fan out and cleaned all. Not required but had thermocoupler replaced.

So I pay a little more as not as efficent as others.
I have peace of mind that it will work and that if it does break everyone has the parts as there are only a few parts. Sometimes simple is better then complex.

Can't get pilot furnaces anymore.

[DickR]

Originally Posted by tis

I don't know the whole deal, but in talking to a local well driller, he was going to a new house that is being built on the lake to dig 10 wells. I don't know if these were test wells or they were all going to be used. I thought they were all going to be used, but I could have misunderstood.

No driller would set out to drill 10 "test wells." If he's drilling for water, he will have a fair idea of how deep a well likely will have to go in a particular location to get adequate flow for domestic use, based on other wells drilled in the area. If he set out to drill 10 wells, whether to hit water or just to get so many holes in the ground for grouting in U-tubes for a ground connection for a geothermal heating system, then likely that was the plan, as part of an overall project. If this is indeed for geothermal heat, the number implies support for a rather large system, and for construction of a new house it represents a huge lost opportunity in design of the house.

If the drilling cost for 10 wells were to be spent instead on the design of the house's exterior shell, into the realm of superinsulated, the result would be a house with a very low heat loss relative to its size, and requiring a very small and correspondingly less expensive heating system to keep it warm in winter and air conditioned in summer. It also would be notably more comfortable year-round, without the cold spots often noticed in ordinary houses when the temperature outside takes a nose dive. Moreover, the extra expense on the shell, nominally around 5% of the cost of the house (plus or minus, depending on how fancy the house is), is recouped in relatively few years from lower operating cost, then keeps paying off like a slot machine.

My own house (mentioned in post 14 on this thread, above), is close to 4000 sqft of conditioned space, but based on electric bills costs roughly $600/heating season to keep comfortable with the geo system. As I said earlier, the heat pump uses one well, somewhat oversized for the two-ton heating system that itself is slightly oversized for the job is has to do. It's way oversized, by a factor of at least two, for summer A/C. The area distributor for the geo unit installed, plus two other installers, all wanted to install a five-ton system, based on their calculations, none of which really took into account the special nature of the house. I selected the unit size, and determined how deep the water well had to be, based on my own calculations for the structure. I was right, and they clearly were wrong.

Whether it's design of the shell to be superinsulated or design of a geothermal heating system, there are some contractors in either field who don't really know how to get it right. Anyone having a house built these days and who wants to get it done right really needs to do a lot of homework to understand what goes into either making the house very energy efficient or, in the case of geo heat, how a system is sized properly. Knowing what has to be done on either is an essential part of contractor selection, in my mind.

[tis]

Thanks for confirming my understanding, Dick. Money is seemingly no object on this house so I assume it will be a big one, therefore needing all those wells.

[Merrymeeting]

Originally Posted by DickR

the heat pump uses one well, somewhat oversized for the two-ton heating system

This is a point that I learned when doing my research. I already had a deep well with a high static water level. So it seemed ideal for use with a heat pump/geothermal system.

However, the diameter of the well was not large enough to accommodate all the piping needed for the water supply and the pipes needed for the loop system. So I would have needed to either drill an additional well or widen the one I had (which would be about the same as drilling a new one)

My whole heating system, including installation, was less than what the well would have cost, even before installing the rest of a geothermal system. With that kind of up front cost outlay, it just wasn't worth it, no matter how appealing the other factors appeared.

[MilhouseEnterprises]

What I was trying to say when I said there are more bad installers than good, was a heavy suggestion to check references and reputation of anyone you use. I was also making the point, that this is where Geothermal got its bad reputation from in NH, most of this is due to the fact that the state does not regulate installers with licensing like other stated do. So in this statement I wasn't trying to say "I'm good and everyone else isn't" because if I couldn't earn your business, I would rather have you choose a good installer and get a great reliable system so the reputation of Geothermal builds up.

On maintenance, yes they have little to no maintenance, on closed loop the most you might have to do is replace a circulatory pump, on open loop you have to check and clean the sediment filter once and a while but its easy, and every 15-20 years you have to replace the well pump but you would have to do that anyway since it is also your potable water source. If you have an air based system, the air filter needs to be changed or cleaned and the cabinet vacuumed out. On average an oil based system lasts 15-18 years, the average Geothermal system lasts 25-35 years, all these facts can be found on the EPA website or Geoexchange.org.

the 10 well system on Winne is a closed loop on a very large home. Many installers won't do open loop systems, and while it is true that open loop systems do require more maintenance and careful design, they are 30% more efficient than closed loop systems, and have a lower initial cost therefore a faster payback. Its just one of those things you have to decide for yourself as its all opinion on which way to go, both work great, my personal opinion is to go with open loop whenever possible as it saves a lot of initial cost and cuts more monthly expense in the long run, you just have to deal with cleaning the sediment filter, but there is a way to make this automatic too for a few extra bucks, but a typical system only needs it cleaned every 3 months, and all it involves is a 5 gallon bucket and 30 seconds, not a big deal.

Jeff K, $600 is very high for a Geothermal electric bill, I think there are ways your bill can be reduced. My average Geothermal customer spends $150-$350 per month on heating in Jan and Feb depending on how cold it gets. If you are an open loop, did you get a variable speed well pump (also called continuous pressure pump)? if not, change it out, that would explain the high electric, with your size house the bill shouldn't go over $400.

I have a 2500sqft test case in Rochester that was built in the early 1900's, only updates were blown in insulation and ducting insulation and sealing, replacement windows. The total electric cost for the Geothermal system (its on a separate meter) and well pump have not exceeded $165 in any given year. System is a 4 ton water to air, open loop. Cost to install was $23,600. Incentives paid for roughly 1/2 the cost leaving the initial investment at $12,000. Annual savings over oil was $3600 so payback was 3 1/2 years. This customer happens to be a financial annalist, and is happy to show anyone interested the system and the numbers.

I hope this clarifies some things, I know I can't please everyone, and of course I'm looking to make a living and hoping to earn business, but I make an HONEST living, I don't overcharge, and I don't do the dancing monkey routine with high pressure sales, smoke and mirrors. I give you the facts, I prove it with facts from the EPA and Test cases, I back up my reputation with hundreds of satisfied customers, and I educate you to make a better decision on your purchase even if it is not with me, because I believe the more well designed Geothermal systems we get out there that run as they should and make happy customers, the better the industry will succeed as a whole. So even if you have no intent on purchasing or installing a system, and just want to learn more, please don't hesitate to call or e-mail me, I don't charge for information. Also feel free to google "Milhouse Enterprises" online, you will find many top rated reviews about us that are independent reviews from our customer base, completely unbiased. chris@milhouseenterprises.com 603-300-2943

[BroadHopper]

For heating with geothermal? No thanks. My natural gas bill was never more than $130 a month.

[Happy Gourmand]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

For heating with geothermal? No thanks. My natural gas bill was never more than $130 a month.

I think I agree with this statement. I just got my gas bill for last month...natural gas..heat...hot water...cooking..$135. House is a bit less than 1900 sq ft.
Maybe the low cost of gas has something to do with it but seems like payback would happen long after I'm gone.

[codeman671]

We are in the process of getting a quote from someone, I am being told that we need 4 wells, 360 feet deep each. 180 feet per ton, 8 ton total system. We have too much wooded area to run a closed loop trench, we'd have to cut down half our wooded back yard to put it in.

[MilhouseEnterprises]

If you have Natural Gas, and a Small Home, yes, stick with it. Natural gas is a great form of energy, its locally produced, inexpensive, abundant and clean, unfortunately most of us do not have access to it in the Lakes Region, the average Oil or Propane customer up here spends $3500-$4500 annually on fuel.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by MilhouseEnterprises

If you have Natural Gas, and a Small Home, yes, stick with it. Natural gas is a great form of energy, its locally produced, inexpensive, abundant and clean, unfortunately most of us do not have access to it in the Lakes Region, the average Oil or Propane customer up here spends $3500-$4500 annually on fuel.

Sorry to burst your bubble again. The last house I built with a 5+ energy star rating and 2500 sq feet, spent $1700 last year for propane. That includes gas appliances such as dryer, kitchen stove, hot water and fireplace. It depends on your homework, finding an econonmical propane supplier is a challenge.

[DickR]

BH, Millhouse was speaking of the average fuel customer. The fact that your ES 5+ house costs less than half the average says two things. First, the "average" house really isn't that good at holding in the heat in winter. Second, going the extra distance in construction techniques, which doesn't have to add much to cost if built into the design, really does save a pile of energy every year over the life of the house, not to mention improved interior comfort. Yet many builders haven't taken the time to learn how to do it right, and some who could do it right may be constrained by whoever will buy the house (or is having the house built), and his unwillingness to pay the small extra cost of a really good shell or his lack of understanding of what it all means.

That's why I advise anyone about to have a house built get very well educated on building science and house construction, so as to be able to evaluate prospective builders and work with the one selected to achieve the desired goals. If the homeowner won't insist on "really good" and understand what that means, then improvements in construction will come slowly, driven only by upgrades in energy codes. Codes have been upgraded, but adoption of new versions often comes slowly in any town, and what passes for code-compliant too often doesn't perform to the intention of the code in the worst weather.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by DickR

Codes have been upgraded, but adoption of new versions often comes slowly in any town, and what passes for code-compliant too often doesn't perform to the intention of the code in the worst weather.

You hit the nail! That is why I rely on the local engineers and UNH cooperative to provide insight to local conditions. Take a look at International Building Codes, especially Canadian. You will see a huge difference in energy specification. Even if your specifications exceed current RBC, it does not mean that the inspectors will OK it.

I would rather buy a Canadian spec manufactured home over a local stick built.

[Fargo]

Just received the winter issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine, it touches on all the topics in this forum. I attended a Passive House presentation in Portland yesterday, it's all about the insulation and air sealing to make the heating systems perform to the max. Invest in the shell, reduce the heating requirements (size). Are any builders in the Lakes Region doing double studded walls to 12" depths?

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Just received the winter issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine, it touches on all the topics in this forum. I attended a Passive House presentation in Portland yesterday, it's all about the insulation and air sealing to make the heating systems perform to the max. Invest in the shell, reduce the heating requirements (size). Are any builders in the Lakes Region doing double studded walls to 12" depths?

This is really overkill according to the local experts. 8" with 1" closed foam insulation with open faced fiberglass and covered with 6 mill sheeting should be sufficient for this climate. If you want to go 12", I know of a couple of contractors that will do it. But they are not located in Lakes Region.

[Fargo]

Some of the "local experts" should spend time in a building science class so they'd construct a durable, energy efficient wall assembly. If you're spending the money, might as well do it correct. Flash and batt might work in the Mid Atlantic states but not recommended in this climate zone. Geo and mini splits need very good insulation and air sealing details to perform well. Just spent $3.99 on oil.

[Chaselady]

I just want to make a note. Anyone on this forum who is seriously planning on installing geothermal, please PM me for some helpful information.

[MilhouseEnterprises]

8" walls are overkill as well, 1" spray foam insulation followed by conventional insulation is fine and efficient. The fact is that 75% of your heat loss is through the roof and glass, sinking thousands into building 8-12" walls is a waste of funds to gain little. It is more important to have a tight envelope, good windows (I have Marvin myself) good heat recovery ventilation, and good attic insulation. attention to details like sealing electrical and plumbing holes is equally important during construction.

For those that are skeptical about the payback and feasibility of retrofitting a Geothermal system in an older home, please e-mail me, I will send you a pile of examples and customers that you may contact for references and proof of the short payback they have had. I'm not saying every system is that way, but most are between 5-7 years.

I noticed someone above say Geothermal is air based only, that is also not true, it can be air based, radiant floor, radiant baseboard heat or split. Geothermal is more flexible than any system available today.

There are thousands of people in NH that have Geothermal, so when it was said that if these facts were true more people would have it, sit back and think about that. No one believed that the world was round until they saw it for themselves. People that have Geothermal love it, People that don't are skeptical and afraid to try.

All I'm asking for is a chance to set the record straight and to show you the facts, backed up with documented proof, customer testimonials from their own voice, and I'm willing to put my reputation as a business and as a person that cares about greener energy solutions on the line. If anyone on this forum is serious about learning more on Geothermal or other alternative energy solutions, then please feel free to call or e-mail me. If Geothermal is not a great solution for you, I'll tell you! I do sell and install high efficiency Gas (LP and Natural) and other petroleum based systems as well, and believe me they are much easier to sell and make me a higher profit, I just don't believe they are the best direction for us to move in for our planet and the future of our children. I'm a regular person, a father, a husband, and to many a friend, I'm not the corporate cold hearted just in it for the money salesperson that many have made me out to be on this forum, as well as private messages sent.

As I said, anyone serious, please let me show you the facts, and let you talk to people that know the most because they have it in their homes. Information cost you nothing. I'm not asking for anything more than a chance to earn your business.

603-300-2943 Chris Milner, Owner Milhouse Enterprises Chris@milhouseenterprises.com

[brk-lnt]

I think there is a lot of confusion, and sometimes misdirection, around where geothermal systems are, or are not, applicable.

The basic concept behind a geothermal system is that it is able to remove heat from ground/groundwater. Any object that is not at absolute zero has *some* retained heat, and that heat CAN be removed from the object. The question is around the time and effort required to do so.

So, at the very least there is really no habitable area of the US where a geothermal heating system could NOT be used, though there are certainly many areas where the practicality of it could be very questionable.

Geothermal systems in NH appear to be relatively costly to install. Certainly more costly for the base install vs. more common oil or propane furnace. The operational costs appear to be lower, so the pure logic around valuing the system would be (increased installation cost)/(operational savings per year) = # years until payback.

It appears that a geothermal system is kind of like a pool or a finished basement when setting the resale value of a house. Some people might like it, some might dislike it, others may be neutral. It's hard to know upfront if the payback period will ever be realized by the homeowner in any measurable sense.

Given that geothermal systems seem to take longer than traditional fossil-fuel based furnaces to raise the temperature a setup amount, they appear to be most applicable to continuously occupied buildings (eg: not seasonal homes).

All the conversations about changing insulation values and methods are essentially moot, since they would apply to ANY heating system. Better insulation and management of heat loss is going to reduce the operational costs of EVERY kind of furnace.

[ITD]

I'm still struggling with payback numbers here. The claims I see on payback seem to talk about retrofits and include not only the system installation, but also new/better insulation, new windows and doors, which in and of itself would decrease heat use and lower costs regardless of fuel, so the payback numbers seem to exaggerate the benefit for someone who doesn't make, or need to make insulation improvements.

I found this energy use calculator, that provides up to date retail energy costs and converts them to dollars per million btus. This is a useful calculation to compare heating costs across different fuels. I'm not sure if I posted this link before, so I provided it below.

Looking at the spreadsheet, natural gas is the way to go if you want to save money. $8.99 per MMbtus Natural gas versus $10.56 per MMbtus for geothermal. The spreadsheet uses an efficiency number of 82% for the NG furnace, you can buy a 95% AFUE condensing unit that would yield a number of $7.76 per MMbtus. The geothermal number is also a little conservative, it seems 3.5 is a good representation of what is available which yields a number of $9.95 per MMbtus per the spreadsheet.

Anyway, to keep it simple, let's use the numbers in the spreadsheet and figure payback. For Natural gas versus geothermal, there is no payback, keep your gas furnace, or upgrade to a condensing super efficient model if necessary, that is the best bang for your buck.

For oil, let's assume that you use 100,000,000 btus in a season. (That should equate to a little under 1,000 gallons at 78% efficiency.) Using the numbers from the spreadsheet, for oil it would cost $36.82 per MMbtus times 100 equaling $3,682.00 per year for oil. Now for a geothermal system it would cost $10.56 per MMbtus times 100 equaling $1,056.00 for electricity, resulting in a savings of $2,626 per year.

Using this savings number and the $30,000 price bandied here as a geothermal retrofit price the payback on converting from oil to geothermal would be 11.4 years......

www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

[ITD]

Brk-int, you already made the point about insulation upgrades improving fuel use regardless of type. I think your point about needing a "speedy" heat source for a seasonal home is good one. I have a second home that had insufficient radiation in the largest room. I keep the heat at about 55 while I am gone and raise it to 70 when I am there. This room would take 24 or more hours to heat up. I've since added an air handler, replacing undersized floor convectors and can heat the space up in a couple of hours or less. I think a forced hot water or hot air geothermal system, properly sized would yield the same results as a fossil fuel system, a btu is a btu, regardless of how it was produced. I think radiant floor heat is probably a poor choice to heat a space from a cold temperature to a warm temperature quickly, at least that is what I was told and did not want to find out after making the investment...

[chasedawg]

I know of someone that is looking to get quotes for a Geothermal installation. They got one from Ultra Geothermal in Barrington, NH Does any one know of any others?
I did see one mentioned named Quest Geothermal. Any experience with these two?

[MilhouseEnterprises]

ITD your calculations are a little off, electric baseboard heat produces 3,413 btu per kilowatt hour of electricity. This is the baseline of how efficiency on a Geothermal system is measured, electric heat is considered to be 100% efficient, because no heat escapes outside the home. Since Geothermal uses only electricity, its efficiency as based on this. The average quality Geothermal system is a minimum 350% efficient, and this is being very conservative, the units I work with are 400% or better. at 350% the average Geothermal system will produce roughly 12,000 btu per kilowatt. Divide your 100,000,000 btu season by this, and you get 8,333 kwh. The average rate per KWH in NH is $.12 so your rough annual cost would be about $1000 so your are close enough on this number, but keep in mind this is the efficiency of a forced hot water system, not forced hot air, air systems run higher efficiency and also give you the benefit of cooling. Where your payback is a little skewed, is you didn't factor in the state and federal incentives. If you have PSNH you can get $4500-$7500 back once the system is up and running, if you have NH Co-Op you get $800 back per ton (average house is a 4 ton system) and you get a 30% tax credit, not deduction, that you can take over 2 years. The incentives pay for roughly half of the system, the average retrofit is about $25,000-$30,000 so we will use the high number, after incentives we are left with $15,000 and with a savings of roughly $2500-$3500 per year on average, that's a 4-6 year payback period, better than any other form of alternative energy.

Yes, obviously you have to spend a little more up front, and it takes up to the first 2 years to get the incentives back, but there are options that can also help with that. There is a loan called "Energy Efficient Mortgage" that will allow you to refinance your home, giving you a lower than normal interest rate to keep your payment roughly the same as it is now, but allowing you to get the alternative energy. This is a program set up by the FHA to make alternative energy affordable to anyone that owns a home, and the overall reduction in the interest rate will more than pay for the entire system.

More on this can be found here:
http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/i...S36F&re=1&ee=1

You will also find the info on the local and state incentives on this site.

Chris Milner, Owner
Milhouse Enterprises
603-300-2943
Serving NH since 1992 with Geothermal, Solar and Wind solutions.

[ITD]

Thanks Chris, you're right, I did not include tax incentives in the payback calculations, which make a big difference in the payback period. Personally I do not like these tax credits as I think the government is a very poor picker of winning technologies. I would rather see these monies being used to encourage r and d on things like batteries or maybe new refrigerants that would make these systems more efficient.

The most surprising thing I saw was the relative cost of natural gas is a much better deal, I didn't expect that. I also suspect that if the federal government were not artificially inflating the price of oil by making it impossible for a new refinery or two come on line and essentially stopping most new oil from federal land, then operating costs would be closer. A change in the political climate could lower oil substantially in my opinion.

I think the cost of these systems is artificially high also, from the cost of the equipment to the installation costs. This is partially due to the incentives. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making hay while the sun shines, but I think these costs will come down making these systems more appealing as the technology improves and more installers become proficient.

The cost of electricity long term is another concern. We have many green initiatives going on this country plus a president that is openly hostile to coal generated electricity. We have a push toward green technologies such as solar and wind, which are much more expensive to produce and all this combined will start negatively affecting people's electric bills.

So I think I'm going to stick with my smoke belching, 83% efficient oil burner for now but I will be keeping my eye on propane, which would probably cost me less then $10k to convert.....fd

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

I know of someone that is looking to get quotes for a Geothermal installation. They got one from Ultra Geothermal in Barrington, NH Does any one know of any others?
I did see one mentioned named Quest Geothermal. Any experience with these two?

Quest is in Somersworth on 108. They do seminars often.

I received a quote from Randy last week. They offered me 2 options. Both were out of my price range, but a lot of that had to do with the setup we need to go with based on what is currently in our house.

They have a few systems installed in the local area, but most of their customers are in Canada being that they just opened up down in this region recently.

I think we are going to sit tight, continue with our plans to relocate north (to the lake year round) and do something when we settle there.

[BroadHopper]

I read somewhere one of the reason natural gas is a bit higher in new England is the limited amount of storage space. There are terminals in Portland and Boston, but demand is exceeding the storage space. A huge storage facility is in the works for Portsmouth. I guess there is something about Homeland Security cancerned about protecting a tanker ship presence in Portsmouth Harbor. PSNH is waiting for the terminal to happen so that they can convert the Bow generating plant to natural gas. A significant step to cleaning the environment.

I am concerned about National Grid depending more and more on natural gas. Should they be looking for a fall back such as the low sulphur coal from the West Coast or bringing on line another reactor? I do know there is a huge push to wind and solar power, but the wind turbines are getting to me everytime I travel north. There was a show on public tv about converting all roof tops, both commercial and residential to solar energy panels. It will provide a significant amout of energy.

Geothermal is popular out west where there a faults in the ground that provide significant amount of heat. We don't have that luxury here.

You will find there are govt. incentives available for converting to natural gas.

[SIKSUKR]

I didn't know we stored natural gas.Are you saying we store natural gas on ships?Are you talking about LNG instead?

[Charlie T]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I didn't know we stored natural gas.Are you saying we store natural gas on ships?Are you talking about LNG instead?

LNG is natural gas just liquified to permit easier and more efficient storage. You can in the same volume vessel store 600 times as much natural gas in a liquified state than if stored in a gaseous state.

Charlie T