Oil to Propane Conversion Cost?

[Overlake97]

I'm thinking of converting my year-round home heating system from oil to propane, and am trying to get a ballpark estimate of what it might cost (the conversion, not the fuel cost). The house is 3000 square feet, with 7 forced hot water heating zones (one is the hot water heater, one is garage [Modine] and one is basement which we never seem to need to use). We're also looking to replace the hot water heater. The house is 15 years old and the current boiler is 11 years old (it was replaced due to cracking of the original). Any information on what this might cost, and factors that would alter the cost, would be greatly appreciated!

[codeman671]

I am in the midst of a similar project at home. A few questions to start:

What is your annual gallon usage of oil?
Do you currently have a zone valve or individual circulators?
How is your electric bill per month?

What that I can start to narrow it down for you. I have done a lot of research and obtained multiple opinions before proceeding. My new system will be finished and online early next week.

[BroadHopper]

They will do an energy audit and make suggestions for you before proceeding. The audit also includes energy credits available for the conversion.

For a really honest opinion of conversion costs call Jeff, He is the gas guy in the region. http://www.bbb.org/concord/business-...ia-nh-92015185

You will find you will be better off in the long run to replace the oil burner with a gas burner as oppose to converting the burner.

[BroadHopper]

I know I am off topic, but I just saw a huge undertaking. There is a duplex and cottage in Laconia with three coal steam furnaces. They furnaces were converted to oil. The prior owner kept his thermostat on 60 and he was able to go through 2000 gals in a winter! There is a major undertaking to replace the coal furnaces and electric hot water heaters to natural gas units that provide domestic hot water and baseboard heating. There is a big energy credit from the feds to replace the heating. It will save $1000s of dollars a year.
The units were built in the mid 1800's. There are asbestos on the steam pipes and lead paints thoughout the buildings. There is HUD grant to remove them. Interesting tour of the homes revealed old slate sinks in the kitchen, iron tubs with legs in the bathrooms, and the gas lanterns mounted to the walls. Huge step back in time!

The units are sold together with 160' Winnisquam frontage. I am hoping an investor will keep the old charm and restore the properties. I am told someone is interested in tearing down the beautiful buildings and building a mcmansion. Another well crafted buildings gone.

[songkrai]

Can't understand why anyone would want to do this.

As with all energy products prices vary greatly from year to year.

Propane. You don't own the tank. Some charge a rental fee.
Every time you change companies the tank has to be changed.
A charge to empty the tank. Another charge to remove the tank.
And big trucks driving on your nice lawn every time you change companies.
You can purchase the tank but that is about 2 grand just for the tank.

Best to do a real cost analysis.
What is the actual payback.

You already have the infastructure for oil.
Now you are going to have yard dug up for piping.
Probably different venting.
The high efficiency ones usually reguire venting through walls.
If vents are not high enough - snow will cover them up - and a failure of system.
Do you have ducts for hot air?

Also check out BTU units. Propane is near the bottom.

A lot of money spent and for what in the end?

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by songkrai

Can't understand why anyone would want to do this.

As with all energy products prices vary greatly from year to year.

Propane. You don't own the tank. Some charge a rental fee.
Every time you change companies the tank has to be changed.
A charge to empty the tank. Another charge to remove the tank.
And big trucks driving on your nice lawn every time you change companies.
You can purchase the tank but that is about 2 grand just for the tank.

Best to do a real cost analysis.
What is the actual payback.

You already have the infastructure for oil.
Now you are going to have yard dug up for piping.
Probably different venting.
The high efficiency ones usually reguire venting through walls.
If vents are not high enough - snow will cover them up - and a failure of system.
Do you have ducts for hot air?

Also check out BTU units. Propane is near the bottom.

A lot of money spent and for what in the end?

There is a number of false statements above.

Propane pricing has been rather stable for a while, as we have the ability to control the propane market as opposed to relying on overseas oil. There is a surplus of it right now, there is even a $500 incentive to switch to propane.

My current propane price is $2.13 locked, and if I commit to switch my company account over as welll (5700 gallons per year) I will be locked in at $1.72! Songkrai, what did you last pay for oil?

A standard oil burner of that age is 80% efficient in the chamber, then loses a lot of it up the chimney. A high efficiency propane boiler is 95% efficient and does not blow it up through the roof. Good ones are highly insulated and stainless steel jacketed which holds the heat. The new one I am going with holds only 2.5 gallons of water opposed to the 20 gallons my smith burner did, so it comes up to temp a lot faster. Less run time to do the same job. We ran a test this week, it took 20 minutes for my boiler to bring the water temp to the point needed and circulate the water to my air handler for dispersal.

An oil burner also has one speed, full. A propane system can modulate heat output based on demand. If only one zone is calling, why run your oil burner at full output to satisfy one portion of the house, then let the rest go up the stack?
The unit we are going with modulates between 65k to 240k btu, our oil burner runs at a straight 154k btu.

Tanks don't need to be dug up. Behind the scenes the companies will buy each other out of tanks when a customer wants to switch. A company taking over will have to buy and install a tank so it is easier to buy out the existing tank at a lesser rate. Going through that now at work. Depending on the tank size it does not necessarily have to be buried, our 325 at home is behind our shed in the back yard, and still easily accessible by the tank truck from our driveway. Usually they can go 100-125 feet from the truck. We are going with a 1000 gallon buried but that is my choice. I can buy the tank for $3k if I want. I own my 325 and they are giving me $500 back for it.

Comparing btu to btu propane is less than oil, but calculate in the price difference per gallon, overall efficiency ratings, etc. in my case it makes sense, but it may not work for all.

Switching to a zone valve setup is going to save a lot in electricity as well, one efficient circulator running compared to 4 older ones in my case.

If you want to stay with oil, look at the system 2000.

[Overlake97]

To answer Codeman's questions:

Q: What is your annual gallon usage of oil? A: About 1300 to 1400 gallons.

Q: Do you currently have a zone valve or individual circulators? A: I think they're individual. How could I tell?

Q: How is your electric bill per month? A: We run about $150/month, but when the A/C goes on (June, July, Aug) it jumps to about $300.

To respond to Songkrai: I appreciate your wondering "why anyone would want to do this," because that's what we're trying to decide. We expect to have above ground tanks (not buried. We already have one small one for a propane fireplace [propane cost = $80/year, so far]), and install a high-efficiency system, which requires wall venting, as you noted. If we had to "dig up the yard" we probably would not do the conversion; and regarding tank rental cost, one Propane supplier said they don't charge for the tanks at all, they just let us "use them." We do have air ducts, but for A/C, not heating (which is forced hot water). We'd also like to use the propane for cooking and for a second fireplace.

To Broadhopper: I will give "Jeff" a call; his company is right in my backyard. Thanks!

[ITD]

I'm not sure that I would switch from oil to propane. I would switch to natural gas in a heartbeat, but that's tough to do if there are no lines in the area. My understanding is that propane is made from oil and is a byproduct of natural gas production with the US supply almost equally split between the two. I would do a close analysis including payback period for equipment investment. I'm thinking that when we get an administration that is more friendly toward oil production, prices will come down, although that is at least 4 years away. In the mean time it looks like it is still too close to be worth it. If I use the official numbers, it isn't worth it.

http://www.nh.gov/oep/programs/energy/fuelprices.htm

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Overlake97

To answer Codeman's questions:

Q: What is your annual gallon usage of oil? A: About 1300 to 1400 gallons.

Q: Do you currently have a zone valve or individual circulators? A: I think they're individual. How could I tell?

Q: How is your electric bill per month? A: We run about $150/month, but when the A/C goes on (June, July, Aug) it jumps to about $300.

To respond to Songkrai: I appreciate your wondering "why anyone would want to do this," because that's what we're trying to decide. We expect to have above ground tanks (not buried. We already have one small one for a propane fireplace [propane cost = $80/year, so far]), and install a high-efficiency system, which requires wall venting, as you noted. If we had to "dig up the yard" we probably would not do the conversion; and regarding tank rental cost, one Propane supplier said they don't charge for the tanks at all, they just let us "use them." We do have air ducts, but for A/C, not heating (which is forced hot water). We'd also like to use the propane for cooking and for a second fireplace.

To Broadhopper: I will give "Jeff" a call; his company is right in my backyard. Thanks!

The circulators would be right near your boiler, they look like individual electric motors with wiring and piping going to them . With 7 zones it would be obvious if you have them. Your electric bill sounds fair. Mine was killing me due to the circulators running all the time. Our home is over 4000 sqft and has 3 stories so it isn't easy to heat with 3 zones. My system is hydro air, so I am running fhw to 3 air handlers which then convert it to forced hot air. Between running the circs and the air handlers my electric bill is awful.

The term "use the tank" is said often, but you are paying for it. The companies have to buy the tank then make up margin in your gallon price. Owning your tank will allow you to get a better rate and let you deal with anyone. How big of a tank are you looking at?

My system is a prestige solo 250. I was going with the 175 but felt it was going to be too close to maxed out especially if I want to expand zones or add one in the garage in the future. The unit I went with was almost $6k, the total job about $10,800. This includes switching to a zone valve setup, relocating my hw tank, a lot of parts, etc. the next size down unit is $1k less. My indirect hw tank was replaced a year ago, that was about $1800. I went with a super stor, which is the way to go.

I figure my payback at 3-4 years at most.

[songkrai]

This is not a discussion about the pros and cons of oil heatiing verus propane heating.

The original poster wishes to change from an existing oil to propane. Big difference.

To heat a home you will need usually a 500 gallon tank. These are not placed against the home. So dig up is necessary for that route.
You can get a series of smaller tanks lined up against structure.

Prices are not stable for propane. Sorry. Just plain not.

Prices vary year to year and company to company. Prices vary day to day. Amerigas was $3.07 for pre-buy last summer. While Eastern last fall was about $2.12. Seems to me to be a large difference.

I have seen over these many decades folks switching from oil to natural gas, from oil to propane. And all is fleeting. Lots of factors involved. From demand in China to the number on tankers in the ocean to the size of the natural gas pipelines.

Natural gas is not propane though.

The original poster needs to do a serious cost analysis - the total cost to change from oil to propane and the variable cost of the fuel itself.

This is not simple as there are so many variables. Cost of modifying home. Cost of installation. And cost of fuel.

A simple analysis of the cost of propane today and the cost of oil today leaves much to be desired.

Just a note about any furnace or boiler you purchase. Stick with the Ford and Chevrolet. Ask your installer what brand and model is used the most by others. If you decide to get into the high tech very high efficiency you are just asking for issues. A speck of dust here a droplet of moisture there and the thing shuts off. Some of these run by circuit boards and a multitude of computer chips. Good luck when you have to pay to replace one of those.

[BroadHopper]

I recently built lakefront property on Rocky Pond. I was told by the building inspector that any tanks, propane, oil or otherwise cannot be buried due to state codes. You may want to look into that.

The 2500' home has 5 star energy rating and was featured in a number of trade magazines for efficiency. The building was constructed to RBC 2010 energy codes even though the town had not adopted to it. (Long story).

The home is heated with System 2000 propane unit that provides both heating and hot water. Three zones valves with baseboard heating. The three bathrooms have propane infrared wall units. There is a propane fireplace in the main room. There are gas applainces like gas kitchen stove and gas laundry dryer. The dryer has a heat exchanger that extract heat from the dryer vent. Even the outside gas grill is connected.

The present owner has two 300 gals tanks off the driveway. The last time I talked to her she only fill up the tanks twice a year or 1200 gal @ year. She is currently locked in with Fuller's at 1.75. So I am looking at $2100 for all her energy needs. That is less than $10 a foot!

For cooling the owner has the Mitsubushi system from EnergySavers. It is connected to the System 2000 so that they work together. Pretty slick!

[songkrai]

500 gallon propane tanks and 1000 propane tanks are buried all of the time.

It is possible that in some towns this may not be allowed. Or specific area was too close to well, property line, or wetlands.

[BroadHopper]

Natural gas are trading at a low cost. There is a 90 year supply of natural gas in the good ol' USA. PSNH have converted all coal and oil plants to natural gas except for the Bow plant. I was told that was going to be converted as well. The railroad will close the Bow line as PSNH is their biggest customer. A natural gas line needs to be built from Portsmouth and Portsmouth is making plans to build a bigger facility. Most of the natural gas for NH and VT are piped from Portland. There is a natural gas line proposal from Canada to Texas.

The automobile manufacturers have test vehicles on the road burning natural gas. With low BTU rating, the cars/trucks have a very limited range. I was told that to fill a car with LNG for range requires an overnight filling.

Natural gas is a serious contender for the future.

[songkrai]

A couple of years old.
Statistics can vary from the bias of the source.

"Propane is a domestically produced fossil fuel, to the extent that our refineries use domestic crude oil. It also burns cleaner at the home than oil, but it’s overall environmental costs are a mixture of Crude Oil, and, to a lesser extent, Natural Gas.

The big problem with Propane is it’s cost when using Propane as a heating fuel. In Maine, Propane currently costs $3.04 per gallon (based on the Maine Office of Energy Independence July 2011) while heating oil costs $3.66. Propane in this case sounds like the lower cost solution until you realize that there are fewer BTU’s per gallon in Propane than Oil. When you correct for that, Propane costs 26% more than Oil."


LINK

[songkrai]

The "Munchkin" story.

Munchkin is a brand of boiler produced/marketed in Fairhaven, Massachusetts.

An acquaintance of mine purchased a new lakefront home. Built by one of the largest best known builders on the lake. Name of builder begins with the letter "S".

This home had a Munchkin boiler and as I recall propane. The home had hot air heat. So the boiler fed a couple of large radiators and fans.

The 2nd winter. No heat in middle of winter. Through the original builder the original installer of Munchkin was called for repairs. The homeowner, concerned with breakdowns ordered a 2nd Munchkin. To run in case the other malfunctioned again. All installed by the original plumber/heating contractor. Some sort of alternating "switch" or valve would turn one on if the other stopped.

Then - no heat. Both broke. A telephone call to original installer - gets going again. Then no heat. A call to original installer - and this time no reply. Again, and again. No reply.

Then a call to Munchkin in Fairhaven, Massachusetts. Munchkins reply was to telephone the original installer. No response. No one else in area would attempt to fix. So another telephone call to Munchkin. This time homeowner wanted to take the boiler directly to the Munchkin factory to have them fix it. No, "we don't actually fix the boilers here" was the response. Call the original installer as he is the only authorized repair person.

Both Munchkins were removed and a brand name boiler was installed.

A look at the Munchkin web site shows a completely different boiler. Maybe all has been changed and fixed. Maybe.

[BroadHopper]

The link does not take into consideration the efficiency of the appliance. The most efficient oil burners are 80% as oppose to 95% for gas. Also efficient gas appliances runs at a rate where it is most efficient by taking into consideration outside air temperature and how fast the temperature drops in the dwelling. Oil is either full on or full off.

Oil has a very limited life. I would prefer to switch now while the energy credits are there rather than wait until there are no credits and oil is gone.

[BroadHopper]

I would love to buy local, i never did care for Munchkins, even the Dunkin's one.

I did have a Burnham boiler as a new install once. It gave out on the first winter. The boiler itself cracked. Since the builder gave me a 10 year HOW warrantee on the dwelling, the boiler was quickly replaced.

Today, you will be lucky to get a 1 year HOW warrantee from a local builder.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

The link does not take into consideration the efficiency of the appliance. The most efficient oil burners are 80% as oppose to 95% for gas. Also efficient gas appliances runs at a rate where it is most efficient by taking into consideration outside air temperature and how fast the temperature drops in the dwelling. Oil is either full on or full off.

Oil has a very limited life. I would prefer to switch now while the energy credits are there rather than wait until there are no credits and oil is gone.

Adjusted the chart (Fuel price calculator) in my link for current price per NHOEP and compensated price for efficiency, 83% for Oil boiler and 95% for Gas, (Newer oil condensing units are above 90% but I stuck with conventional).

Fuel Type	Fuel Unit	Fuel Price Per Unit (dollars)	Fuel Heat Content Per Unit (Btu)	Fuel Price Per Million Btu (dollars)	Adjust for efficiency
Fuel Oil (#2)	Gallon	$3.79	138,690	$27.31	$32.91	83%
Propane	Gallon	$3.15	91,333	$34.50	$36.32	95%
Kerosene	Gallon	$4.06	135,000	$30.07
Natural Gas	Therm	$1.77	100,000	$17.70
Wood (Pellets)	Ton	$249.00	16,500,000	$15.09
Wood (Cord)	Cord	$210.00	20,000,000	$10.50
Electricity	Kilowatt-hour	$0.150	3,412	$43.96

[RLW]

Originally Posted by songkrai

Can't understand why anyone would want to do this.

As with all energy products prices vary greatly from year to year.

Propane. You don't own the tank. Some charge a rental fee.
Every time you change companies the tank has to be changed.
A charge to empty the tank. Another charge to remove the tank.
And big trucks driving on your nice lawn every time you change companies.
You can purchase the tank but that is about 2 grand just for the tank.Best to do a real cost analysis.
What is the actual payback.

You already have the infastructure for oil.
Now you are going to have yard dug up for piping.
Probably different venting.
The high efficiency ones usually reguire venting through walls.
If vents are not high enough - snow will cover them up - and a failure of system.
Do you have ducts for hot air?

Also check out BTU units. Propane is near the bottom.

A lot of money spent and for what in the end?

My comment is just on the highlighted part of the above comment.

I own my gas tanks and get them filled by whoever I decide on obtaining my fuel from. I have changed several times without any questions. One company wanted it certified, but I had the paperwork showing that it was done 8 months ago and the next thing the tanks were all filled. (2-200 and 1-500 underground)

[HellRaZoR004]

Where are you getting sub-$2.00 propane!!.. I just got filled for $2.899 yesterday in Southern NH and thought that was decent.

One thing to make note of is if you get the tank from another company in most cases you need to commit to a certain amount every year. In my case I need to use 600 gallons of propane, or pay $150 a year.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by ITD

Adjusted the chart (Fuel price calculator) in my link for current price per NHOEP and compensated price for efficiency, 83% for Oil boiler and 95% for Gas, (Newer oil condensing units are above 90% but I stuck with conventional).

Good info, but not a comparison for today's market. I got pricing for the last three years based on what my estimated usage would be from 3 local providers and found the highest overall was $2.79. To pay $3.15 you are not using enough. I was paying about that for low annual usage in a gas log, gas grill, gas stove and backup generator.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

Where are you getting sub-$2.00 propane!!.. I just got filled for $2.899 yesterday in Southern NH and thought that was decent.

One thing to make note of is if you get the tank from another company in most cases you need to commit to a certain amount every year. In my case I need to use 600 gallons of propane, or pay $150 a year.

$2.13 the other day through df Richard if paid by eft based on 1200-1500 gallon annual usage. $2.13 is my lock price through another provider. The $1.72 price is if I combine my annual usage with my companies fuel which equates to 7000 gallons per year usage.

Currently at work I use eastern, we pay a locked $0.45 over cost, an industrial rate.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by songkrai

This is not a discussion about the pros and cons of oil heatiing verus propane heating.

The original poster wishes to change from an existing oil to propane. Big difference.

True, which is where I was going with it originally until you railroaded it into bashing propane system and questioning why the poster would want to convert.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by RLW

My comment is just on the highlighted part of the above comment.

I own my gas tanks and get them filled by whoever I decide on obtaining my fuel from. I have changed several times without any questions. One company wanted it certified, but I had the paperwork showing that it was done 8 months ago and the next thing the tanks were all filled. (2-200 and 1-500 underground)

I would like to know how you got your owned tank certified and by whom.

I also own my tank.

I am under the assumption that if or any time you switch propane companies that new company has to rumage through your residence and record/write down each and every propane appliance.

That a "certification" by one company has no meaning to the next company.

But do explain how all works.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by codeman671

$2.13 the other day through df Richard if paid by eft based on 1200-1500 gallon annual usage. $2.13 is my lock price through another provider. The $1.72 price is if I combine my annual usage with my companies fuel which equates to 7000 gallons per year usage.

Currently at work I use eastern, we pay a locked $0.45 over cost, an industrial rate.

The prices are from here: http://www.nh.gov/oep/programs/energy/fuelprices.htm

This is a state site that surveys and reports prices on various fuels, this is where I got the prices. The prices are credit price, I get a discount for cash (pay within 10 days) when I buy oil, but I figured I would use what the state says people pay on average. The prices you quote are very low from what I saw on my search of various sources. If I were able to secure that type of pricing ($2.13/gallon) I might consider changing to propane. Are there any other charges on top of that price?

[ITD]

Here is the chart with Fuller's discount oil price and your $2.15 price. The last number is the cost per season based on 1,000 gallons of oil or the equivalent of 1,000 gallons of oil in propane. Your propane number makes sense for conversion, the published numbers by the state do not.

**** the last number is not exact but should be close, I used 125 million btu's as an approximation for 1,000 gallons of oil, that's off by about 10% for oil but shouldn't matter to the calculation as I used the 125 Mbtus by the efficiency number for 1 million btus for both gas and oil. The comparison should be correct and the amount of fuel used per season will vary anyway. ****

Fuel Type	Fuel Unit	Fuel Price Per Unit (dollars)	Fuel Heat Content Per Unit (Btu)	Fuel Price Per Million Btu (dollars)	Adjust for efficiency
Fuel Oil (#2)	Gallon	$3.54	138,690	$25.52	$30.75	83%		$3,844.05
Propane	Gallon	$2.15	91,333	$23.55	$24.79	95%		$3,099.12

[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by ITD

Adjusted the chart (Fuel price calculator) in my link for current price per NHOEP and compensated price for efficiency, 83% for Oil boiler and 95% for Gas, (Newer oil condensing units are above 90% but I stuck with conventional).

This confirms what I figured out 16 years ago....I heat with my pellet stove and NG furnace and I've been getting my pellets for under $200 per ton every year.
BT

[boat_guy64]

2400 sq ft house
4 zones
Laars boiler
$6600

I used Irving to do the work. I called several local plumbing companies but only one ever called back and they said that they were too busy to provide a quote. Irving handled the whole thing very professionally and did a very neat job of the plumbing. (Much neater than the original installer)

[NoBozo]

Natural Gas ..Propane..whatever: I like the NEWS when a GAS supplied house BLOWS UP in a Spectacular Manner and maybe takes out the house next door. I don't remember this happening with oil heat. Just sayin. NB

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Today, you will be lucky to get a 1 year HOW warrantee from a local builder.

Luck has nothing too with it! NH law requires 1 year warranty, if a repair is required and the builder refuses, hire someone else to do the repair and send the original builder the bill. If they refuse to pay that, then take them to court and force them to pay or have a lien placed against them. You have to allow them the first option to remedy the situation, even if you can't stand to look at the builder anymore.

A year is not a long time, but it is something and there are quite a few contractors that offer warranties greater than a year. Also, help yourself out and have the installation verified that it has been done to manufacturer spec, this way you have further protection down the road if you need to go after the manufacturer for a material warranty.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Blue Thunder

This confirms what I figured out 16 years ago....I heat with my pellet stove and NG furnace and I've been getting my pellets for under $200 per ton every year.
BT

Yes, we get over half of our house heat from the pellet stove, averaging about $200/ton over several years. That is about 1/2 the price of oil per delivered BTU.

My take is that oil vs propane is pretty much a wash so converting from one to the other will take from a long time to infinity to pay off. My concern about propane is the Kaboom factor. While it is rare for a propane heated house to blow, it does happen. I have never heard of a house blowing up from #2 oil fumes.

[HellRaZoR004]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

Yes, we get over half of our house heat from the pellet stove, averaging about $200/ton over several years. That is about 1/2 the price of oil per delivered BTU.

My take is that oil vs propane is pretty much a wash so converting from one to the other will take from a long time to infinity to pay off. My concern about propane is the Kaboom factor. While it is rare for a propane heated house to blow, it does happen. I have never heard of a house blowing up from #2 oil fumes.

You don't hear about propane blowing up all that often. There have been a number of Natural Gas explosions lately though. There is a big difference between the two in terms of delivery method (LP = tank, NG = line from the street).

[BroadHopper]

So you oil, pellet stove and wood fanatics heat your domestic hot water with as well as your cooking and laundry with oil, pellet or wood? Electricity is the highest on the totem pole. I will stick to natural gas for all my needs. Too many chimney fires and pellet stove malfunctions to worry about. And too many carbon monoxide cases from malfunctioned oil burners.

On the plus side for wood, you folks do have quite a work out bringing wood in from the wood pile. That is a healthy thing to do.

[ishoot308]

Just out of curiosity, with all the rage on heat pumps / mini split systems these days, has anyone done a cost comparison of adding a mini split as a supplemental heat source instead of a complete changeover? Heck they say the new heat pumps by Mitsubishi work efficiently to -10 degrees!! If I remember correctly average cost for materials and labor for a heat pump is around #1,200.00 - $1,500.00 per zone. Considering their efficiency, I would tend to think this is a very efficient and affordable alternative.

Just curious;

Dan

[HellRaZoR004]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

So you oil, pellet stove and wood fanatics heat your domestic hot water with as well as your cooking and laundry with oil, pellet or wood? Electricity is the highest on the totem pole. I will stick to natural gas for all my needs. Too many chimney fires and pellet stove malfunctions to worry about. And too many carbon monoxide cases from malfunctioned oil burners.

On the plus side for wood, you folks do have quite a work out bringing wood in from the wood pile. That is a healthy thing to do.

I use propane for my clothes dryer, hot water and forced hot air (when I don't have the wood stove going). The dryer was initially electric but when I bought the house I had the line installed.

I will caviate it by saying the furnace is always set around 62F though. If I'm cold I'll get the wood stove going and keep it above 70 in the house (2500 sqft). Granted the past weeks cold temps at night was interesting.

[Irish mist]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

The link does not take into consideration the efficiency of the appliance. The most efficient oil burners are 80% as oppose to 95% for gas. Also efficient gas appliances runs at a rate where it is most efficient by taking into consideration outside air temperature and how fast the temperature drops in the dwelling. Oil is either full on or full off.

Oil has a very limited life. I would prefer to switch now while the energy credits are there rather than wait until there are no credits and oil is gone.

The 5 year old oil burner in my rental is about 86% efficient.....the newer ones are even better.

[songkrai]

This is the original post.
The original post asks about the conversion from oil to propane.
The original post specifically states not the price of the fuel.

I would appreciate hearing from original poster after he/she obtain 3 quotes from 3 reputable heating contractors and state each price/quote.
Then a good debate could arise if this approach was good and cost effective.

Originally Posted by Overlake97

I'm thinking of converting my year-round home heating system from oil to propane, and am trying to get a ballpark estimate of what it might cost (the conversion, not the fuel cost). The house is 3000 square feet, with 7 forced hot water heating zones (one is the hot water heater, one is garage [Modine] and one is basement which we never seem to need to use). We're also looking to replace the hot water heater. The house is 15 years old and the current boiler is 11 years old (it was replaced due to cracking of the original). Any information on what this might cost, and factors that would alter the cost, would be greatly appreciated!

[BroadHopper]

I stuck to the original post at first and gave the name of a very reliable gas installer who keeps up with the times and tell it like it is. I am very happy dealing with him and so were my customers. I hope Overlake gives him a call and let me/us know how he is doing.
Then I talk about a natural gas conversion project with energy credits.
Sorry I got side tracked.

Just because there in no natural gas pipeline on your street, pick up the the phone and call Liberty Utilities/National Grid, you will be surprised that if it there is another pipeline in the area, they will negotiate to have you hooked up. One client in Gilford by the airport was burning kerosene for years without knowing his neighbor had natural gas. Kerosene, yes, people still have kersosene burners.

There are homes in Laconia burning coal. Dutile stock coal and kerosene.

[robmac]

I heat my home in SNH with NG,I have a well insulated and high efficiency window home. I replace the antique gas fired forced air funace when I bought the house and added a/c. I was out of town last year when we had the power outage and my home never got below 52 degrees. One thing you also have to consider is the cost of up keep of oil heat. Gas either LPG or NG has little service required but to keep your pil fired system operating efficiently requires annual service. Even on a budget plan oil cost will exceed gas cost when all factors are figured into annual cost. JMHO

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by songkrai

This is the original post.
The original post asks about the conversion from oil to propane.
The original post specifically states not the price of the fuel.

I would appreciate hearing from original poster after he/she obtain 3 quotes from 3 reputable heating contractors and state each price/quote.
Then a good debate could arise if this approach was good and cost effective.

My original post asked specific questions about their situation so that I could compare it to what I am doing, as it is a similar project and I could offer real pricing comparisons.

You did make a comment about the new LP boilers which was mentioned by my installer last week. Parts availability on these new high tech boilers is not plentiful, often times the parts need to come from the mfg as the supply houses do not carry them. We are thinking of actually leaving our oil system in as a backup, and tying the two together. It seems rather foolish to rip out a perfectly good functioning system and have to pay to do so. This would give us good redundancy and cover us if/when an issue arises.

[DickR]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Just out of curiosity, with all the rage on heat pumps / mini split systems these days, has anyone done a cost comparison of adding a mini split as a supplemental heat source instead of a complete changeover?

Of course, the outside unit would have to be kept clear of snow, so the air can circulate through it. For operating cost, take what you'd expect for straight electric heat and divide by the COP (coefficient of performance). The COP will be best, perhaps upward of 3, when outside temperatures aren't too cold, and worst as you go further below zero, dropping below 2. The vendor's tables may be available online and should give you performance vs outside air temperature.

[dpg]

Overlake - are you sorry you asked yet?

[BroadHopper]

Information Overload

[Overlake97]

To DPG: I'm not sorry at all, as the more information the better. And I really do appreciate all the effort most posters have put toward sorting out this issue. I should say that the reason I started the post was that I did already have one quote - for $17,500 - and thought it might be on the high side. As noted in original, that was for 7 forced hot water zones (4 primarily for in-house heating) serviced by a Buderus 142 and Turbomax 23 instantaneous indirect water heater. This quote included piping to bring propane to the kitchen stove and a second fireplace (already have one Propane fireplace, which we love), and removal of our Burnham boiler and SuperStor hot water tank. So far I've seen only lower numbers (less than 10K) on cost, for the conversion alone (all "parts" and labor), but I realize those projects might not have been comparable in size.

I have a second person coming to provide an estimate tomorrow (Wed), and it's not the person Broadhopper suggested. I called "Jeff" twice now (Sat and Mon), leaving messages - and two phone numbers - on his company's very nice answering machine, and even filled out an on-line appointment form, but have yet to hear back from him (or them).

As far as current Propane costs, Fred Fuller quoted us the best price at $2.29/gal (for our expected usage) with the next closest being around $2.59 (vs. oil at about $3.96 as of Dec 31). The attached image of oil vs. propane prices shows a recent divergence favoring Propane that is supposedly due to the "shale gas revolution" (see link immediately below). Our motivation to convert is based on the belief that this divergence will continue.

http://oilandgas-investments.com/201...the-ngl-price/

The image at bottom was created via this link:
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_nus_w.htm

[BroadHopper]

I'm glad you did your homework. You also have to take into consideration the annual maintenance cost as well. Connected to a heat pump, both geo and air, you will see significant savings annually. My client in Gilmanton has her Mitsbushi system provide heat down to 20 degrees outside temperature and turns on the system 2000. That is where the engineer determines the efficiency of the two units. I was told there is software in the work that will determine the crossover based on the unit cost of the two fuels.

I'm sure PSNH did thier homework before converting to NG. PSNH is confident that they will hold prices to where they are today and possibly lower the prices should NG prices drop even lower. Folks who are looking at converting thier energy supplier from PSNH may want to find out where the energy is coming from. I am going to stick with PSNH. Once the Bow plant is converted and NG prices come down I believe PSNH will come out on top.

My ski lodge in CO is heated with LNG. It is not cheap, but on the long run it is lower than oil. At 9,000 feet I don't see the need for a heat pump.

[ITD]

Overlake, it sounds like you are installing a complete heating system vs a boiler change out. If you don't mind me asking, why not switch out the boiler only and leave the rest of the system. My superstore is guaranteed for life. At $17,000 it would take close to 20 years to pay back the investment, at $10,000 it would take over 10 years, just curious.

[BroadHopper]

I do know he is very busy, as he built up a huge clientile. He travels a lot around the North Country and as far South as Concord. There is an awfully lot of conversion to gas.

My client originally wanted geothermal and solar panels. Due to Shoreline protection act, permanent solar panels are not allowed. And because she is located near wetlands, geothermal for some reason was not feasible. Energysavers did a terrific job in evaluating and working with an engineer to develop an economical system. EnergySavers highly recomended Jeff. Jeff work is very clean, well marked, and well laid out. I've seen to many spaghetti piping by other local plumbers that claimed they are heating experts. Jeff is not a plumber.

I hope everything works out for you.

[dpg]

Overlake - just teasing you. Last winter I bought a new high efficiency boiler (Mass) which is direct vented outside. The new piping is no big deal yeah two more pipes to look at but what ever not a deal breaker for me. Before changing out the old Boiler I was on a gas payment plan for 185.00 all winter (natural gas) and my current payment is 144.00 and at that my December bill had me 230.00 to the "good" another words I'm 230.00 ahead of my usage. I used Mass Save and also got a deep discount (75%) off of an entire attic insulation job. Oh and the boiler was financed at 0% how could I say no? Good deals and incentives out there right now keep doing what you are and shop around. I found my install prices actually didn't vary too much just be sure your comparing "apples to apples" some cheaper prices also come with bargain basement equipment.

[songkrai]

Originally Posted by Overlake97

To DPG: I'm not sorry at all, as the more information the better. And I really do appreciate all the effort most posters have put toward sorting out this issue. I should say that the reason I started the post was that I did already have one quote - for $17,500 - and thought it might be on the high side. As noted in original, that was for 7 forced hot water zones (4 primarily for in-house heating) serviced by a Buderus 142 and Turbomax 23 instantaneous indirect water heater. This quote included piping to bring propane to the kitchen stove and a second fireplace (already have one Propane fireplace, which we love), and removal of our Burnham boiler and SuperStor hot water tank. So far I've seen only lower numbers (less than 10K) on cost, for the conversion alone (all "parts" and labor), but I realize those projects might not have been comparable in size.

I have a second person coming to provide an estimate tomorrow (Wed), and it's not the person Broadhopper suggested. I called "Jeff" twice now (Sat and Mon), leaving messages - and two phone numbers - on his company's very nice answering machine, and even filled out an on-line appointment form, but have yet to hear back from him (or them).

As far as current Propane costs, Fred Fuller quoted us the best price at $2.29/gal (for our expected usage) with the next closest being around $2.59 (vs. oil at about $3.96 as of Dec 31). The attached image of oil vs. propane prices shows a recent divergence favoring Propane that is supposedly due to the "shale gas revolution" (see link immediately below). Our motivation to convert is based on the belief that this divergence will continue.

http://oilandgas-investments.com/201...the-ngl-price/

The image at bottom was created via this link:
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_nus_w.htm

What is the payback in years?
After all costs of purchase and installation.

Or if money is not the object of this exercise then of course all is fine and OK.

[Overlake97]

So many people weighed in on this project that I thought I'd post an update, even though it's been a while.

We ended up having a Baxi Luna (HT) high efficiency propane boiler installed. Jay Brittain did the work, as he provided the best estimate and I trusted him (He had done some smaller jobs for me in the past). I had four (4) estimates range from a high of $18,000 to just under 10K, which is about what I paid Jay for the conversion.

Interestingly, everyone had their pet product to push. Jeff Seymore, who was recommended by Broadhopper (I think), would only install Munchkins, another guy swore by Buderus, and almost everyone had something bad to say about everyone else's preferred boiler. Fred Fuller ended up being our propane supplier (best price; plus they were our oil people and we never had any problems with them), and I paid a private party to dig my fairly complicated trench. It's now been almost one year since the conversion, and everything is going well. Besides the new boiler, which is working great, we now have a propane cooking stove, plus two propane fireplaces (very nice when the power is out).

So far, I'm not sure how much money I'm saving, if any (given the additional demands on fuel), but it sure is nice to have those two large oil tanks gone from our basement! And the Baxi, which is much more compact and hangs on the wall, takes up less space than the old oil furnace and is much quieter (not that that was really a problem).

Gathering all the info on this project, and getting all the pieces to fit, took quite a bit of time. The biggest hurdle ended up being getting that trench dug! The big companies thought it was too small, the small ones didn't think they had the equipment, it was not a simple straight-line trench and everyone had a different opinion about "requirements" (depth, etc.). But once that trench was dug everything else fell neatly into place.

Thanks to everyone who provided insight and tried to help me out. All information was greatly appreciated!

[Sunbeam lodge]

Originally Posted by Overlake97

I'm thinking of converting my year-round home heating system from oil to propane, and am trying to get a ballpark estimate of what it might cost (the conversion, not the fuel cost). The house is 3000 square feet, with 7 forced hot water heating zones (one is the hot water heater, one is garage [Modine] and one is basement which we never seem to need to use). We're also looking to replace the hot water heater. The house is 15 years old and the current boiler is 11 years old (it was replaced due to cracking of the original). Any information on what this might cost, and factors that would alter the cost, would be greatly appreciated!

Wow what a great discussion. Thanks everyone for doing all this work. I am preparing to convert a 25 year old System2000 oil to propane system when i get back from Florida. As this was an old thread, ti would be great to hear if any of the original posters have any regrets or there not happy with the original plan.

[BroadHopper]

I ended up getting a Rinnai E110C for my condo. It is an on demand condensing boiler. I am extremely happy with the setup. Don Morin replaced a hot water heater and a Celtic boiler in the allocated time agreed upon. Plenty of hot water even when two are taking separate showers, both zones on as well as the dishwasher going. There was an interest free loan from Meredith Village Savings, a $150 tax credit from IRS and a $100 rebate from NH for the thermostat. There was also a $100 rebate from Rinnai.

I also replace a electric range with gas. I saw no noticeable difference in electrical and calculated a 30% better differences in gas usage. The percentage is determined by dividing the average degree days per month by the CFF use and compare the last 4 months, unit was installed Dec, with last year Dec-Mar. I will know more as the months go by.

[wifi]

Getting rid of electric ranges in favor for gas is win win in my book. Nothing worse than a spoiled Thanksgiving dinner due to a power failure. A couple of years ago, if you remember.

[8gv]

Originally Posted by wifi

Getting rid of electric ranges in favor for gas is win win in my book. Nothing worse than a spoiled Thanksgiving dinner due to a power failure. A couple of years ago, if you remember.

Will modern gas ranges work without electricity?

My propane fireplace, furnace and water heater will not.

[wifi]

Originally Posted by 8gv

Will modern gas ranges work without electricity?

My propane fireplace, furnace and water heater will not.

Mine is a no frills, pilot light one, serves me well.

[HellRaZoR004]

Most ranges will still work with a match or lighter in the absence of the electric igniter. The oven, not so much.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004

Most ranges will still work with a match or lighter in the absence of the electric igniter. The oven, not so much.

Our stove is pilotless ignition, but the four burners can be lit with a match. The oven can not. The burners are controlled by a knob, but the oven is all electric touchpad control. You select electronically bake, lo broil, or hi broil, and then adjust the temperature for baking using a touchpad set of arrows up or down from 350 degrees.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

Our stove is pilotless ignition, but the four burners can be lit with a match. The oven can not. The burners are controlled by a knob, but the oven is all electric touchpad control. You select electronically bake, lo broil, or hi broil, and then adjust the temperature for baking using a touchpad set of arrows up or down from 350 degrees.

Several years ago when we had that ice storm, I was without power for a few days. I was able to use the boat battery with a convertor to provide electricity to a gas stove. I use the oven to heat the town house I had in Hooksett at the time. The setup work well!

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Several years ago when we had that ice storm, I was without power for a few days. I was able to use the boat battery with a convertor to provide electricity to a gas stove. I use the oven to heat the town house I had in Hooksett at the time. The setup work well!

Our electricity has gotten more reliable on our street than when we lost power for a week. We heat with wood, we have access to the stream to get water for the toilet, and we did fine with stove top cooking. We are closer to getting a generator to put all our headaches to rest. Getting too old to haul water... and chop wood.... may have to let the wife do it all... she's younger than me!!
(And no, she doesn't come on the Forum. Phew!!!!)

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Sunbeam lodge

Wow what a great discussion. Thanks everyone for doing all this work. I am preparing to convert a 25 year old System2000 oil to propane system when i get back from Florida. As this was an old thread, ti would be great to hear if any of the original posters have any regrets or there not happy with the original plan.

Take it from someone who knows about heating... go with the System 2000 Accel! You won't be disappointed like so many believing their wall hung actually gets the efficiency that are rated by the manufacturer. Their oil system is the most efficient out there!

http://energykinetics.com/accel-cs-condensing-boiler/

[WINNOCTURN]

Originally Posted by upthesaukee

Our electricity has gotten more reliable on our street than when we lost power for a week. We heat with wood, we have access to the stream to get water for the toilet, and we did fine with stove top cooking. We are closer to getting a generator to put all our headaches to rest. Getting too old to haul water... and chop wood.... may have to let the wife do it all... she's younger than me!!
(And no, she doesn't come on the Forum. Phew!!!!)

I looked at Generators every time I went to Lowe's or Home Depot. My wife said OK by one of the darn things. I finally broke down and bought a Colman 6500 watt generator.

We first set it up to power the furnace and a couple of lights in the cellar. We later set it up to power the Breaker Panel.

We put in a twist-lock Receptacle outside under the deck wired back to the breaker panel. We installed what is known as an INTERLOCK Device. The device blocks the Generator breaker form being thrown with out the Main Breaker being moved to the OFF position. Till the Generator Breaker is put in the OFF position you can not move the MAIN BREAKER to the ON POSITION.

Depending the Breaker Panel manufacturer you can find one these devices at Home Depot for under $20.00. You can do most oof the installation yourself. I would maybe recommend having a licensed Electrician do the final connections at the Panel.

We have had the Generator for six years and have used it 5 times. of the 5 times 4 of those time were for an hour or less. The one time we had to use it for a longer period was for about 3 hours.

We have set a rule where we wait at least wait an hour before hooking up the generator.

As upthesaukee said the overall Grid here in Moultonboro has been vastly improved.

I consider it like an Insurance Policy against outages!

WINNOCTURN

[SIKSUKR]

Wouldnt live without a generator anymore. However, I realized how cheap my electricity was while I was out of power for 4 days and had to fill it with gasoline at $4 a gallon. Running about 10/12 hours a day I was in the neighborhood of $30 a day. Still worth it when needed though.

[Sunbeam lodge]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Good info, but not a comparison for today's market. I got pricing for the last three years based on what my estimated usage would be from 3 local providers and found the highest overall was $2.79. To pay $3.15 you are not using enough. I was paying about that for low annual usage in a gas log, gas grill, gas stove and backup generator.

Just paid $4.34 for 50 gallons from Rymes The tank holds 100 gallons