Lake Water Intake Hose Freeze Help

CateP · 10-16-2016, 10:58 PM

Hello All-- I take care of a lakeside rental house and we have winter renters in the house from now until May. The house water supply is from the lake and goes through an expensive filtration system. This year the intake hose is exposed due to the low water level. I am very concerned it will freeze.

Does anyone have any idea of how we can keep the hose from freezing up this winter?

Bear Islander · 10-16-2016, 11:35 PM

You can use an "internal water pipe heater". Do an internet search for that term.

Several manufacturers make heating wire that goes inside the pipe to prevent freezing. This method is not as easy to install as the heat tape or wire that goes on the outside of the pipe, but it will work much better.

secondcurve · 10-17-2016, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

Hello All-- I take care of a lakeside rental house and we have winter renters in the house from now until May. The house water supply is from the lake and goes through an expensive filtration system. This year the intake hose is exposed due to the low water level. I am very concerned it will freeze.

Does anyone have any idea of how we can keep the hose from freezing up this winter?

How deep is that warerhose in a typical winter? It seems like it would be quite shallow. I'm kind of surprised there haven't been problems in prior winters. Please let us know how this turns out.

codeman671 · 10-17-2016, 08:25 AM

Judging by the picture I am surprised it has never been a problem before???

LIforrelaxin · 10-17-2016, 09:04 AM

If FLL is lurking around I believe he has encountered and tackled a similar issue...

ishoot308 · 10-17-2016, 09:10 AM

Out of curiosity, what is the difference between this situation or having a water line go in the water at the end of a breakwater dock or similar?... I have never pulled mine out and neither have many of my neighbors and we have never had an issue. As a matter of fact island support who handles hundreds of camps every year recommends leaving them in...

Is it an issue because its coming off the beach in shallow water???

Thanks!

Dan

Pineedles · 10-17-2016, 11:13 AM

This is an interesting issue. While we as well as many others do not bring their lake hoses in for the winter, we don't use them in the winter. As long as there is vacant space in the hose above the lake waterline for it to freeze into, there is no problem with the hose cracking.

However, despite the low water level this year, isn't the hose exposed to the air somewhere between the normal waterline and the shore, where I expect it is buried in the ground? Is the amount of linear exposure to the air, because of the low waterline, the perceived problem?

If push comes to shove, leaving a faucet open so that only a dribble of water comes out, would at least temporarily resolve pipe freezing issue.

SIKSUKR · 10-17-2016, 12:45 PM

Were there people renting through the winter in the past? If so and no issues before, my only concern would be with the intake/footvalve being frozen in the ice. Actually, if that were my pipe I would extend it maybe 10 ft anyway. Not to difficult to extend the pipe. All you need to do is cut the pipe a few feet from the intake and add a section of that black polyethylene pipe and use 2 couplers to rejoin. Heat the pipe with a propane torch just to soften enough to push in the coupler and use a standard hose clamp. Lowes and HD carry these.

Barney Bear · 10-17-2016, 10:06 PM

Several years ago, we left our waterline in place at the end of the season. It was an installation similar to the one seen in the above photo. When we returned to our place on East Bear Island in the following spring, we found that the ice floes had moved our line to a location over an adjacent rock breakwater.

codeman671 · 10-18-2016, 07:50 AM

Our line was in the water in a similar fashion however we did not use it year round. There was a valve near the shore to drain the line. I think he would blow air down the line to clear as much as possible. As long as there is room in the pipe for expansion as it freezes there is no problem. Being used all year though? I would expect problems. Heat tape or wire would be a start. How about where it enters the house? I assume it is shallow or not buried all the way to the inlet?

dayvsea · 10-30-2016, 02:07 PM

Don't quote but pretty sure there is a 1 inch black pipe that is made to expand with the freeze and not suffer for it. Can't remember the brand name. You could use that below and sweat a union in above the waterline with a torch. If the union was maybe brass or such with a drain in it, you could drain the level down near the lake and out of your house and leave the foot valve in the lake with the expanding pipe in the mix..Ice floes though..Are on you..

CateP · 11-03-2016, 08:36 AM

Thanks all for the replies. We have winter renters in the house and are looking at the in pipe heating line.

The run from the house is 150ft. so we're looking at $2,200 just for the system parts, not the install. Sheesh.

ITD · 11-03-2016, 09:05 AM

$664 from here: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Easy-Heat...-Heating-Cable

http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...s/default.aspx

Can't see it taking more than a few hours for someone to install. If you need an outlet installed I suppose that's an extra $200 for an electrician. Be careful out there, some are much more expensive than others. Also, the unit above is 700 Watts, which won't be cheap on your electric bill.

fatlazyless · 11-03-2016, 09:10 AM

Gilford Well has these water heater-lake water intake systems, and you can chat them up about it.

In November 1992, I purchased a 125' x 1 1/4" black poly tube with an inside heat wire, installed it myself, and it has worked happily ever after, to this day, with no problems. Is hard to believe but true! Made by some company called Hydro Tenax or something in Ontario, Canada; it uses 888-watt for 125', and installation requires just a small trench, about 3" wide and 3" deep is instructed, so it was not at all difficult to install what with the small ditching needed as opposed to a big ditch. Crossing the rocky embankment at the waters edge required moving rocks and threading the poly tube through a white pvc pipe to protect the poly tube from wind, waves, and rocks...... and replacing the rocks. Best to bury it so the black tube enters the lake under the water and under the ice as the surface ice can move just a little, and could damage the tube. The very low water level this year may make for a new problem

with the ice?

A house with no inside working water is no fun!

Supposedly, the type of 1 1/4" black poly tube used is able to survive a freeze-up and re-thaw without cracking what with the expansion of ice inside its' confined space, and this actually happened once when I forgot to turn on the breaker until the first week of January, one year.

My price at Gilford Well in 1992 for a big cardboard box with a 125' black poly tube, thermostat box, temperature sensor, and 125' internal wire was $1050 and it was money well spent.....plus it supplies all the plumbing water to my little cottage including watering the outside plants and shrubs. A foot valve and some other small plumbing items were also needed to complete the job, and it runs off a 1/2-hp shallow well pump with a 30-gal water tank located in the kitchen which is obviously heated all winter long.

I set the thermostat at about 34-degrees and it has a red light that comes on when in use, as it cycles on and off, depending outside daily temp.

For $200 I got a perfect condition, 18" wide, stainless steel Frigidaire dishwasher on Maine-Craigslist, reg price about $500?, and plan to install it before this month November is done.......so's it will be a lake water, no filter, dish washer ........ wish me luck with this project! While I do not drink the lake water, I do brush my teeth with it, and spit it out......

DickR · 11-03-2016, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CateP

....looking at the in pipe heating line.

The run from the house is 150ft. so we're looking at $2,200 just for the system parts, not the install. Sheesh.

Cate, have you asked a well driller what he would expect the cost to be for a drilled well installation in that area? Well depths for other wells in the immediate vicinity can give a reasonable guess as to drilling costs, and this is information generally available. It would be more, for sure, but it might be money better spent over the long run, considering long-term power cost, and if the cottage will be used year-round. That also would give the renters water for drinking and cooking.

Pineedles · 11-03-2016, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Gilford Well has these water heater-lake water intake systems, and you can chat them up about it.

In November 1992, I purchased a 125' x 1 1/4" black poly tube with an inside heat wire, installed it myself, and it has worked happily ever after, to this day, with no problems. Is hard to believe but true! Made by some company called Hydro Tenax or something in Ontario, Canada; it uses 888-watt for 125', and installation requires just a small trench, about 3" wide and 3" deep is instructed, so it was not at all difficult to install what with the small ditching needed as opposed to a big ditch. Crossing the rocky embankment at the waters edge required moving rocks and threading the poly tube through a white pvc pipe to protect the poly tube from wind, waves, and rocks...... and replacing the rocks. Best to bury it so the black tube enters the lake under the water and under the ice as the surface ice can move just a little, and could damage the tube. The very low water level this year may make for a new problem

with the ice?

A house with no inside working water is no fun!

Supposedly, the type of 1 1/4" black poly tube used is able to survive a freeze-up and re-thaw without cracking what with the expansion of ice inside its' confined space, and this actually happened once when I forgot to turn on the breaker until the first week of January, one year.

My price at Gilford Well in 1992 for a big cardboard box with a 125' black poly tube, thermostat box, temperature sensor, and 125' internal wire was $1050 and it was money well spent.....plus it supplies all the plumbing water to my little cottage including watering the outside plants and shrubs. A foot valve and some other small plumbing items were also needed to complete the job, and it runs off a 1/2-hp shallow well pump with a 30-gal water tank located in the kitchen which is obviously heated all winter long.

I set the thermostat at about 34-degrees and it has a red light that comes on when in use, as it cycles on and off, depending outside daily temp.

For $200 I got a perfect condition, 18" wide, stainless steel Frigidaire dishwasher on Maine-Craigslist, reg price about $500?, and plan to install it before this month November is done.......so's it will be a lake water, no filter, dish washer ........ wish me luck with this project! While I do not drink the lake water, I do brush my teeth with it, and spit it out......

This has to be your most thoughtful and useful post you have ever done. You're slipping ole' boy.

SIKSUKR · 11-09-2016, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pineedles

This has to be your most thoughtful and useful post you have ever done. You're slipping ole' boy.

Actually,the only one I remember.You have it in you FLL.

fatlazyless · 11-20-2016, 08:46 AM

.....oopsie-doopsie ........ Pyrotenax is the correct name on my heated water line ....and not Hydro Tenax ....which was incorrect from blurred memory or something!

10-16-2016, 10:58 PM	#1
CateP Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 868 Thanks: 584 Thanked 540 Times in 210 Posts	Lake Water Intake Hose Freeze Help Hello All-- I take care of a lakeside rental house and we have winter renters in the house from now until May. The house water supply is from the lake and goes through an expensive filtration system. This year the intake hose is exposed due to the low water level. I am very concerned it will freeze. Does anyone have any idea of how we can keep the hose from freezing up this winter? Attached Images

10-17-2016, 09:04 AM	#5
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,825 Thanks: 1,016 Thanked 880 Times in 514 Posts	If FLL is lurking around I believe he has encountered and tackled a similar issue... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

10-17-2016, 09:10 AM	#6
ishoot308 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island Posts: 5,932 Thanks: 2,290 Thanked 4,941 Times in 1,917 Posts	Out of curiosity, what is the difference between this situation or having a water line go in the water at the end of a breakwater dock or similar?... I have never pulled mine out and neither have many of my neighbors and we have never had an issue. As a matter of fact island support who handles hundreds of camps every year recommends leaving them in... Is it an issue because its coming off the beach in shallow water??? Thanks! Dan __________________ It's Always Sunny On Welch Island!!

10-17-2016, 12:45 PM	#8
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Were there people renting through the winter in the past? If so and no issues before, my only concern would be with the intake/footvalve being frozen in the ice. Actually, if that were my pipe I would extend it maybe 10 ft anyway. Not to difficult to extend the pipe. All you need to do is cut the pipe a few feet from the intake and add a section of that black polyethylene pipe and use 2 couplers to rejoin. Heat the pipe with a propane torch just to soften enough to push in the coupler and use a standard hose clamp. Lowes and HD carry these. Attached Images __________________ SIKSUKR Last edited by SIKSUKR; 10-18-2016 at 07:54 AM.

10-17-2016, 10:06 PM	#9
Barney Bear Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 962 Thanks: 495 Thanked 273 Times in 174 Posts	Caution! Several years ago, we left our waterline in place at the end of the season. It was an installation similar to the one seen in the above photo. When we returned to our place on East Bear Island in the following spring, we found that the ice floes had moved our line to a location over an adjacent rock breakwater.

10-16-2016, 11:35 PM	#2
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,757 Thanks: 31 Thanked 429 Times in 203 Posts	You can use an "internal water pipe heater". Do an internet search for that term. Several manufacturers make heating wire that goes inside the pipe to prevent freezing. This method is not as easy to install as the heat tape or wire that goes on the outside of the pipe, but it will work much better.

The Following User Says Thank You to Bear Islander For This Useful Post:
CateP (10-17-2016)

10-17-2016, 08:25 AM	#4
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,360 Thanks: 210 Thanked 764 Times in 448 Posts	Judging by the picture I am surprised it has never been a problem before???

10-17-2016, 11:13 AM	#7
Pineedles Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Moultonborough & CT Posts: 2,535 Thanks: 1,059 Thanked 652 Times in 363 Posts	This is an interesting issue. While we as well as many others do not bring their lake hoses in for the winter, we don't use them in the winter. As long as there is vacant space in the hose above the lake waterline for it to freeze into, there is no problem with the hose cracking. However, despite the low water level this year, isn't the hose exposed to the air somewhere between the normal waterline and the shore, where I expect it is buried in the ground? Is the amount of linear exposure to the air, because of the low waterline, the perceived problem? If push comes to shove, leaving a faucet open so that only a dribble of water comes out, would at least temporarily resolve pipe freezing issue.

The Following User Says Thank You to SIKSUKR For This Useful Post:
CateP (10-17-2016)

10-18-2016, 07:50 AM	#10
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,360 Thanks: 210 Thanked 764 Times in 448 Posts	Our line was in the water in a similar fashion however we did not use it year round. There was a valve near the shore to drain the line. I think he would blow air down the line to clear as much as possible. As long as there is room in the pipe for expansion as it freezes there is no problem. Being used all year though? I would expect problems. Heat tape or wire would be a start. How about where it enters the house? I assume it is shallow or not buried all the way to the inlet?

10-30-2016, 02:07 PM	#11
dayvsea Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 113 Thanks: 42 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Don't quote but pretty sure there is a 1 inch black pipe that is made to expand with the freeze and not suffer for it. Can't remember the brand name. You could use that below and sweat a union in above the waterline with a torch. If the union was maybe brass or such with a drain in it, you could drain the level down near the lake and out of your house and leave the foot valve in the lake with the expanding pipe in the mix..Ice floes though..Are on you.. __________________ "Honesty is the best policy."

11-03-2016, 08:36 AM	#12
CateP Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Wolfeboro Posts: 868 Thanks: 584 Thanked 540 Times in 210 Posts	Thanks all for the replies. We have winter renters in the house and are looking at the in pipe heating line. The run from the house is 150ft. so we're looking at $2,200 just for the system parts, not the install. Sheesh.

11-03-2016, 09:05 AM	#13
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	$664 from here: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Easy-Heat...-Heating-Cable http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en-...s/default.aspx Can't see it taking more than a few hours for someone to install. If you need an outlet installed I suppose that's an extra $200 for an electrician. Be careful out there, some are much more expensive than others. Also, the unit above is 700 Watts, which won't be cheap on your electric bill.

11-03-2016, 09:10 AM	#14
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,527 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	.... Hydro Tenax, Gilford Well Gilford Well has these water heater-lake water intake systems, and you can chat them up about it. In November 1992, I purchased a 125' x 1 1/4" black poly tube with an inside heat wire, installed it myself, and it has worked happily ever after, to this day, with no problems. Is hard to believe but true! Made by some company called Hydro Tenax or something in Ontario, Canada; it uses 888-watt for 125', and installation requires just a small trench, about 3" wide and 3" deep is instructed, so it was not at all difficult to install what with the small ditching needed as opposed to a big ditch. Crossing the rocky embankment at the waters edge required moving rocks and threading the poly tube through a white pvc pipe to protect the poly tube from wind, waves, and rocks...... and replacing the rocks. Best to bury it so the black tube enters the lake under the water and under the ice as the surface ice can move just a little, and could damage the tube. The very low water level this year may make for a new problem with the ice? A house with no inside working water is no fun! Supposedly, the type of 1 1/4" black poly tube used is able to survive a freeze-up and re-thaw without cracking what with the expansion of ice inside its' confined space, and this actually happened once when I forgot to turn on the breaker until the first week of January, one year. My price at Gilford Well in 1992 for a big cardboard box with a 125' black poly tube, thermostat box, temperature sensor, and 125' internal wire was $1050 and it was money well spent.....plus it supplies all the plumbing water to my little cottage including watering the outside plants and shrubs. A foot valve and some other small plumbing items were also needed to complete the job, and it runs off a 1/2-hp shallow well pump with a 30-gal water tank located in the kitchen which is obviously heated all winter long. I set the thermostat at about 34-degrees and it has a red light that comes on when in use, as it cycles on and off, depending outside daily temp. For $200 I got a perfect condition, 18" wide, stainless steel Frigidaire dishwasher on Maine-Craigslist, reg price about $500?, and plan to install it before this month November is done.......so's it will be a lake water, no filter, dish washer ........ wish me luck with this project! While I do not drink the lake water, I do brush my teeth with it, and spit it out...... __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake! Last edited by fatlazyless; 11-03-2016 at 09:46 AM.

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11-20-2016, 08:46 AM	#18
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,527 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	.....oopsie-doopsie ........ Pyrotenax is the correct name on my heated water line ....and not Hydro Tenax ....which was incorrect from blurred memory or something! __________________ ... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!