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Old 12-06-2019, 08:19 AM   #101
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I just read that Camp Belknap has started a lawsuit agains the development of Farm Island.
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:24 AM   #102
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I just read that Camp Belknap has started a lawsuit agains the development of Farm Island.
On what grounds?

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Old 12-06-2019, 09:21 AM   #103
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On what grounds?

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Go to the Union Leader web site and read all about it. You might have to subscribe to be able to read it.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:52 AM   #104
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On what grounds?

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Among the issues raised in the suit are the developersí inexperience and the islandís mostly untouched condition. Its most intensive use was at the turn of the 20th century, when it was used as pasture for farm animals.

ďThere is no known precedent in Tuftonboro or even on the lake itself for a subdivision of an undeveloped and ecologically sensitive island,Ē the suit reads. ďThe Tuftonboro Master Plan specifically requires the planning board to balance the needs of the applicant with the needs of the community as a whole. The planning board paid lip service to this balancing but then did not engage in any meaningful analysis of whether it was appropriate to permit a 10-lot subdivision on Farm Island.Ē

The suit notes the camp paid for an archaeological survey, which reported the site is a potentially invaluable window into the past and a source for pre-contact Native American and post-contact European American archaeological resources.

Johnson said the planning board acted unreasonably and unlawfully in asking the court to send the case back to the planning board for a full and proper consideration of the applicantís plan.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:07 PM   #105
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After going through Shoreland permitting last year on an island lot, the state wanted me to do an archaeological survey on our parcel, claiming that there COULD be artifacts present as some had been found elsewhere on different islands. When I pushed back on it, I actually wasn't required to, they made it sound like it was a requirement but in all reality it was a suggestion. Unless they found arrowheads or indian pottery there, its probably a stretch claiming its a window into the past...

I haven't been following the Farm Island saga too closely, but something seems fishy. It has been under contract for ages. Did the camp not get a chance to buy this in the first place, or didn't want to spend the money? Or was the deal done before it even hit the market?
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:25 PM   #106
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Ironic that the YMCA who had a chance to purchase this property but had no money can secure legal council and sue the town.

Frankly it is the town's prerogative to approve or disapprove whatever they see fit in whatever manner they see fit so long as it meets the stated town requirements. That is their job. They cannot find favor in one party or another because one more belligerent or outnumbers the other. They have done nothing illegal or outside the typical process. The entire argument being made is irrelevant and stupid. Hopefully the court puts and end to this nonsense as it is nothing but a waste of time.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:34 PM   #107
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ďThere is no known precedent in Tuftonboro or even on the lake itself for a subdivision of an undeveloped and ecologically sensitive island,Ē the suit reads.
Ummm, weren't all the islands (and all of the mainland for that matter) undeveloped until they were? Did the Indians only visit Farm Island? Chases Island right next door has many houses on it.

Doesn't sound like a strong argument for a suit.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:40 PM   #108
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The only people that will benefit from this are the attorneys.
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Old 12-06-2019, 06:24 PM   #109
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The only people that will benefit from this are the attorneys.
Isn't that true with the majority of lawsuits?
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:06 PM   #110
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The only people that will benefit from this are the attorneys.
That is so true. And do you know who will be paying for all of attorney fees the public tax payers of Tuftonboro? Of course they will be. Our tax increase has gone up this assessment by 51%. So hear again this lawsuit will increase all tax payers in Tuftonboro. What does Camp Belknap pay in taxes....? NOTHING!
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Old 12-06-2019, 07:32 PM   #111
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Default Great Historical Information

Hey thanks for sharing this information.
I learned something, of interest to me, that i would have otherwise not known of and would likely not have voiced my opinion.
we would do fuel runs every week or more usually every weekend to pier 19. I Like that part of the lake.
I would love to walk the island before it gets destroyed
mike
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:35 PM   #112
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Hey thanks for sharing this information.
I learned something, of interest to me, that i would have otherwise not known of and would likely not have voiced my opinion.
we would do fuel runs every week or more usually every weekend to pier 19. I Like that part of the lake.
I would love to walk the island before it gets destroyed
mike
Mike..you might want to walk very soon. The ownership will be changing hands in a couple of weeks from what I have been told by the buyer. We love that part of the lake as well. Shamefully it is starting to turn into negative issues. and oh by the way gas may not be available at Pier 19 again this summer.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:50 PM   #113
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And do you know who will be paying for all of attorney fees the public tax payers of Tuftonboro? Of course they will be. Our tax increase has gone up this assessment by 51%. So hear again this lawsuit will increase all tax payers in Tuftonboro. What does Camp Belknap pay in taxes....? NOTHING!
What the Town of Tuftonboro must do is take all the Farm Island trees as they come down and get replaced by this new 10-lot sub-division, and put them in a tree museum out behind the Tuftonboro town hall ..... and then the town can charge a dollar and a half ...... to everybody ..... just to see them! ...
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:17 PM   #114
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I still wonder where those who buy property on the island will keep their boats when not at the island. Good luck finding slips.


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Old 12-07-2019, 12:59 PM   #115
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So many ills in our US society could be quickly cured if the legal system was changed by requiring the plaintiff to have to pay the legal costs of the defendant should they lose their case ...but this is a pipe dream because there would be need for half as many lawyers and residents of Washington DC would never vote for such a sensible but self crippling move.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:54 PM   #116
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So many ills in our US society could be quickly cured if the legal system was changed by requiring the plaintiff to have to pay the legal costs of the defendant should they lose their case ...but this is a pipe dream because there would be need for half as many lawyers and residents of Washington DC would never vote for such a sensible but self crippling move.
Unfortunately, your idea would deny access to the legal system for those who have the least in society. In civil litigation, even strong cases sometimes lose, whether it be to a technicality or a bad judge or jury. A person having modest or less means would never risk litigation, even if he or she has a strong case, because losing would be financially crippling.

Personally, I would like to see caps on fee awards.
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Old 12-07-2019, 02:36 PM   #117
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Some people sue just because they hope for a settlement which often happens to save the expense of going to court.
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Old 12-08-2019, 04:06 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by NH.Solar View Post
So many ills in our US society could be quickly cured if the legal system was changed by requiring the plaintiff to have to pay the legal costs of the defendant should they lose their case ...but this is a pipe dream because there would be need for half as many lawyers and residents of Washington DC would never vote for such a sensible but self crippling move.

I'm sure this would reduce frivolous lawsuits, but it would also reduce appropriate lawsuits--it would make it impossible for an individual or small corporation to ever sue a large corporation. The large corporation would simply run up a few million dollars in expenses (chump change for them, but big money for the plaintiff), then tell the small plaintiff they could settle for nothing or take their chances in court.
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Old 12-09-2019, 07:47 AM   #119
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Got to wonder who is behind this lawsuit and paying the lawyers. Certainly doesn't make sense for the camp to be footing the bill.
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Old 12-09-2019, 09:17 AM   #120
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You don't suppose that Belknap might have some lawyers as alumni who know the meaning of "pro bono".

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Old 12-09-2019, 10:54 AM   #121
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Lightbulb ... help save Farm Island for YMCA Camp Belknap

For those unfamiliar with Farm Island: It is a 20 1/2-acre Lake Winnipesaukee island in Tuftonboro, NH with heavily treed, flat land with the mostly pine trees growing untouched since about 1904. 7 1/2-acres are already owned by nearby https://campbelknap.org, and the remaining 12-acres is proposed to get divided by an owner/developer into ten single, waterfront house lots, each with a house, dock, septic system and electric power.

Farm Island currently has one 100-plus year old cottage in its center with an outhouse and no electricity anywhere on the island.

YMCA Camp Belknap - Giving Overview .... www.campbelknap.org/giving/

Support Belknap - Do your share

You can donate online.

Once Farm island gets developed, it will be built up with homes, docks, septic systems, accessory out buildings and will never again be an undeveloped, wooded island
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Old 12-09-2019, 02:31 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
For those unfamiliar with Farm Island: It is a 20 1/2-acre Lake Winnipesaukee island in Tuftonboro, NH with heavily treed, flat land with the mostly pine trees growing untouched since about 1904. 7 1/2-acres are already owned by nearby https://campbelknap.org, and the remaining 12-acres is proposed to get divided by an owner/developer into ten single, waterfront house lots, each with a house, dock, septic system and electric power.

Farm Island currently has one 100-plus year old cottage in its center with an outhouse and no electricity anywhere on the island.

YMCA Camp Belknap - Giving Overview .... www.campbelknap.org/giving/

Support Belknap - Do your share

You can donate online.

Once Farm island gets developed, it will be built up with homes, docks, septic systems, accessory out buildings and will never again be an undeveloped, wooded island
Thanks, FLL--I sent in my donation. Regardless of how one feels about Farm Island, Belknap enables hundreds of kids each year to enjoy the lake in a low-impact way. We should all help them
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Old 01-03-2020, 05:51 PM   #123
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Default Protect residential land as residential land

Hello Neighbor,

I am writing to share my concerns of the expansion of Camp Belknap. Please be advised that Camp Belknap has requested special exception for a commercial use on Farm Island. The camp has been illegally using Farm Island and only with ZBA approval can a commercial use of this type be continued. The meeting is January 8, 2020. It is time to protect your investment and stop the expansion of Camp Belknap.

Recently the NH Fish and Game walked Farm Island to inspect the property. Illegal tent platforms were discovered. An area noted as privacy rock that wreaked of urine. Also noted was one of the best loon nesting sites in northern part of Winnipesaukee was exploited and converted into a landing area used in conjunction for this presently illegal commercial use.

The Camp Belknap requests states that they use a “leave no trace” experience and that counselors and campers handle human waste. This is not the case and a blatant lie. The smell of urine was intense many weeks after the camp had stopped using Farm Island.

Each time Camp Belknap increases its presence, your property value goes down. Each time they purchase a tax earning property and convert it to a non tax earning status, your tax burden increases. Camp Belknap pays no property taxes on any land it owns and acquires.

Farm Island is only an example of the many violations. There are more mainland violations where they exploited residential zoning laws. These illegal buildings and structures too are part of the expansion. Shore-land protection laws on farm and mainland are also ignored and violated.

I ask you to please voice your concern to protect residential land as residential land.

Please see the attached video. This what we have to deal with and they want to expand and exploit us and the lake even further.

https://youtu.be/EAqexY8nC_Q
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:27 PM   #124
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It looks and sounds to me like a lot of kids having a great time at a summer camp. In todays world kids need more of these type of activities.
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:37 PM   #125
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Itís a summer camp and itís been there forever. Whatís the problem?
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:52 PM   #126
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It’s a summer camp and it’s been there forever. What’s the problem?
new illegal use of residential land next to us is our issue. if you own property on the lake would you like a commercial use next to your house?
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:58 PM   #127
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Why would you build a house next door to a kids summer camp that's been there forever ?? How does under agreement make it next to you ??
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:23 PM   #128
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But you bought the property knowing there was a camp there.

Way back in the 1950s, my father bought our first camp in Toltec on Moultonborough Neck. It was next to a small boys camp and we always knew that it could be expanded.

That small boys camp is now Acadia campground.
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:32 PM   #129
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Wait, aren't you the developer trying to build a bunch of houses on the island?

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Old 01-03-2020, 07:39 PM   #130
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Yeah, something sure doesnít sound right!
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:43 PM   #131
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Ya, its hard to develop with so many kids running around having so much fun.
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Old 01-03-2020, 08:06 PM   #132
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I think your post shows your airing dirty laundry on the forum. Hardly believe you could smell urine a month or two after the camp closes. Your posts are always negative against the camp and you sight destruction of loon nesting areas which is exaggerated. The loons have always frequented the side of the island you are trying to develop. How manyís loons do you think will frequent the island when you stick 10 houses there? The camp use of that island is not daily in any event.
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Old 01-03-2020, 08:42 PM   #133
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He has done this before...throwing everything against the wall and see what sticks.
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Old 01-03-2020, 08:47 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Owen View Post
new illegal use of residential land next to us is our issue. if you own property on the lake would you like a commercial use next to your house?
Joined the Forum 4 months ago. Eight posts, 6 about Farm Island, the majority of the posts are negative.

Have a bit of an agenda?
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Old 01-03-2020, 08:52 PM   #135
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What is he trying to make happen? Does he want to close the entire camp down because itís a nuisance for him?
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Old 01-03-2020, 09:07 PM   #136
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Everyone, please see post #72 to see what and who you are dealing with here...
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Old 01-03-2020, 09:18 PM   #137
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Everyone, please see post #72 to see what and who you are dealing with here...
Oh come on is this the same Randy Owen we all know and love ........ you know the one who at one time owned and still maybe does own Owen's Marine. You know the one where you pay off your promotional manufacturers boat loan and find out later that the funds never made it to the bank. Is this the same guy.

I know of several folks that had real serious financial problems with this guy. One of a variety of reasons he does not represent the manufacturers any more and discontinued his privileges to sell their boats.

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Old 01-03-2020, 09:25 PM   #138
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Until it is posted, Farm Island is open land under NH statutes. I would encourage everybody who has access to go pee on the non-Belknap side of the island. Perhaps on a coordinated date in May? Would that side of the island make a nice rafting area?
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Old 01-03-2020, 09:34 PM   #139
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........... to go pee on the non-Belknap side of the island.
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Old 01-03-2020, 09:46 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Owen View Post
Corruption at Camp Belknap! Parents Beware!

Camp Belknap has illegally built two structures on Farm Island and one on the mainland in Tuftonboro. All are in violation. The town has found numerous other violations. Farm Island is zoned Residential. Property owners at the hearing provided audio and video displaying the illegal and deliberate violation of law. Zero respect for abuttors and what young people should learn. In a previous town meeting they even persuaded an innocent young teenage camper to speak of how he enjoyed the opportunity were the camp directed him on residential property breaking the NH law.

Camp Belknap also has violated New Hampshire Shore-land Protection laws as well. Seth Kassells directed the use a landing area for sail and paddle boats in one of NH prime Loon Nesting areas. For gain Camp Belknap also engaged in a conservation easement. With this easement they specified no power boats would go to Farm Island. Power boats do frequent Farm Island.

Young people should not be exposed to this corruption and exploitation of State law with zero respect for residential abbutors. Parents need to be vigilant. This camps alleged alignment with Christianity
and the YMCA is disgusting. Parents choose your children's future first!

For reference, this was the first post on the subject by Mr. Owen back in September.
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Old 01-03-2020, 11:03 PM   #141
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Default Snake oil salesman?

If the eventual fate of Farm Island is ten residential lots, then hopefully it isn't Randy Owen that develops them. Based on his posts and 130+ others here, he doesn't seem to be the sharpest tack in the box and I'm sensing he isn't one to be trusted. I'm thinking future headaches are in store for those that must deal with him - including eventual homeowners that discover he sold them a bill-of-goods.

He should be trying to partner with the camp instead of vilifying them. He should be asking this forum for suggestions rather than pushing his own agenda. Most of all, he should be showing empathy for the opinions of others. Anything else comes across as uncaring, vengeful and opportunistic.
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Old 01-04-2020, 12:09 AM   #142
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I watched Mr Owens's video, and I have a new level of understanding. Dozens of children laughing, paddling, sailing. Oh the horror of it all!
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Old 01-04-2020, 06:26 AM   #143
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In October, the subdivision was approved. Since, the YMCA/Camp Belknap has opened a lawsuit. Is Owens' post a reflection of that?

I mean, given the Mr. Owen's diplomatic posts and stellar business history, it appears he's the perfect person to be spearheading this development at the expense of a youth, i.e. freeloaders, camp.Name:  Screenshot_20200104-062326_Chrome.jpg
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Old 01-04-2020, 08:06 AM   #144
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Sounds like someone who would like to force the camp off of its portion of the island so he can acquire it to preserve it by building more homes on that portion. Like a snake, he should just crawl back in his hole.


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Old 01-04-2020, 10:48 AM   #145
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This a tactic to turn the public against the camp. Slander them as they have no way to rebuttal on this forum and the Facebook page he is using as well.
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Old 01-04-2020, 11:18 AM   #146
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thank you all for your input. The mission is only to follow local and state law. Farming is allowed. Commercial use is not.

For financial benefits the camp entered into a conservation easement. This easement specifically stated that the cannot build a structure like this. It also says the won't bring power boats to the property. They do bring power boats to their portion Farm Island violating there own easement. They do not properly dispose of human waste and say they do. I only want the laws followed. Please understand.

The records should be understood. The Town has approved the subdivision, but camp Belknap has sued the town and appealed the towns decision. I am buying Farm Island without the subdivision finalized but with the ability to restore the six bedroom cottage (and i will preserve the 1906 status). In the future a structure will be built closer to the water as the 1906 structure is 600 feet from the water. I will be tapping trees for maple syrup and possibly growing Christmas trees.

I have three children. They and their friends will enjoy Farm Island no matter what Camp Belknap tries next. I may sell one lot to only offset the exorbitant costs triggered by Seth Kassels. Other than that the rest is up to my children.

Thank you all for your input and information.
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Old 01-04-2020, 11:30 AM   #147
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thank you all for your input. The mission is only to follow local and state law. Farming is allowed. Commercial use is not.

For financial benefits the camp entered into a conservation easement. This easement specifically stated that the cannot build a structure like this. It also says the won't bring power boats to the property. They do bring power boats to their portion Farm Island violating there own easement. They do not properly dispose of human waste and say they do. I only want the laws followed. Please understand.

The records should be understood. The Town has approved the subdivision, but camp Belknap has sued the town and appealed the towns decision. I am buying Farm Island without the subdivision finalized but with the ability to restore the six bedroom cottage (and i will preserve the 1906 status). In the future a structure will be built closer to the water as the 1906 structure is 600 feet from the water. I will be tapping trees for maple syrup and possibly growing Christmas trees.

I have three children. They and their friends will enjoy Farm Island no matter what Camp Belknap tries next. I may sell one lot to only offset the exorbitant costs triggered by Seth Kassels. Other than that the rest is up to my children.

Thank you all for your input and information.
If what you say is true, then I would think you would bring your observations to the Town and Zoning Officials. To me they would be the best source to enforce Board of Health and Structural questions and issues.
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Old 01-04-2020, 12:29 PM   #148
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Default ....... Farm Island; Tuesday, July 23, 2024

....... and, here's the crystal ball look ahead in the future to Farm Island on Lake Winnipesaukee in the beautiful small NH town of Tuftonboro.

On Tuesday, July 23, 2024, Farm Island's entire 20.5 acres are looking very much the same, all totally treed in with old, tall pine trees growing across the entire island as it does today in January, 2020.

That one hundred year old, 2-bedroom cottage has been removed and a 15'x40' open-on-one-side, lean-to, camping structure similar to a garage or utilty shed has been built in the same spot along with an appropriate toilet in a separate outer shed. Five small tent platforms are in place, spread around the island at choice spots.

And, that's it ..... that's what's what with Farm Island in 2024 ... a central camp-out lean-to with a camp fire out front ..... some tent platforms .... a toilet ..... a hand operated, pitcher pump ..... and the all-natural Farm Island ..... and this is all there is ..... in 2024!

You have taken a peek here into Farm Island's future ..... and that's the way it's gonna be.

And, oh yeah, the entire island belongs to YMCA Camp Belknap which uses it for canoes, kayaks, camping, and sailing. ....
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Old 01-04-2020, 12:34 PM   #149
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thank you all for your input. The mission is only to follow local and state law. Farming is allowed. Commercial use is not.

For financial benefits the camp entered into a conservation easement. This easement specifically stated that the cannot build a structure like this. It also says the won't bring power boats to the property. They do bring power boats to their portion Farm Island violating there own easement. They do not properly dispose of human waste and say they do. I only want the laws followed. Please understand.

The records should be understood. The Town has approved the subdivision, but camp Belknap has sued the town and appealed the towns decision. I am buying Farm Island without the subdivision finalized but with the ability to restore the six bedroom cottage (and i will preserve the 1906 status). In the future a structure will be built closer to the water as the 1906 structure is 600 feet from the water. I will be tapping trees for maple syrup and possibly growing Christmas trees.

I have three children. They and their friends will enjoy Farm Island no matter what Camp Belknap tries next. I may sell one lot to only offset the exorbitant costs triggered by Seth Kassels. Other than that the rest is up to my children.

Thank you all for your input and information.
Having this notarized and added to your deed as a condition of ownership might help too
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Old 01-04-2020, 02:44 PM   #150
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Default how it was 1906. They didn't get in trouble for cutting trees

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how it was 1906. I have many more photos to help with the restoration
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Old 01-04-2020, 02:54 PM   #151
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Default how is was was with no trees 1906

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how is was was with no trees 1906
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Old 01-04-2020, 03:30 PM   #152
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Wow, those are amazing pictures! NH did not have many trees in those days.
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Old 01-04-2020, 04:08 PM   #153
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Wow, those are amazing pictures! NH did not have many trees in those days.
I am not sure about New Hampshire, but I have been told that Vermont in 1900 was 95% free of trees and 5% wooded.

Today, Vermont is 95% trees and 5% cleared.

This may have been true in many of the New England States.

In any event, that 1906 photograph is very interesting!
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Old 01-04-2020, 04:29 PM   #154
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Attachment 15545


how is was was with no trees 1906
So where did they pee back then ?
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Old 01-04-2020, 04:36 PM   #155
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Wow, those are amazing pictures! NH did not have many trees in those days.
You can see all of the trees in the background. It looks like they cut down around the house. It also looks like itís been burned to me.
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Old 01-04-2020, 06:11 PM   #156
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I just read that Camp Belknap has started a lawsuit agains the development of Farm Island.
don't be fooled. the lawsuit is not against farm island but the town of Tuftonboro. The town has already spent 20k of tax payers money on the Camp Belknap mess and now this appeal in superior court. Keep in mind all while Camp Belknap pays zero to the town for property tax and asks the rest of the tax payers to pay for it's own
legal shenanigans.
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Old 01-04-2020, 06:35 PM   #157
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Default as it was circa 1906

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You can see all of the trees in the background. It looks like they cut down around the house. It also looks like it’s been burned to me.
there was no fire. prior to the Winchester family purchase in 1905 Farm Island was a goat farm. the original goat farmers house still exists and in fact is on Union Wharf road where it was moved to sometime prior to 1905. the farmers house foundation remains and as yet undisturbed. it is quite large and was likely used for ice storage too.

the house in the photos was built as it is in 1906. unlike many island homes that were built and added onto a dozen times this six bedroom cottage was designed by an architect and built by a professional home builder. this is what has peaked our mission to save the house. next to the house you will see a smaller building. this building is were they kept the ice packed in saw dust. the original ice chest remains in the cottage.

the Tuftonboro Historical Society has express extensive interest in Farm Island, the house and my mission to save it. a Farm Island volume will be added to the Historical Society
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Old 01-04-2020, 06:40 PM   #158
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I am not sure about New Hampshire, but I have been told that Vermont in 1900 was 95% free of trees and 5% wooded.

Today, Vermont is 95% trees and 5% cleared.

This may have been true in many of the New England States.

In any event, that 1906 photograph is very interesting!
I believe that was true of NH too. I don't know if you are familiar with Wolfeboro but you could see the lake from most of the roads which you can't do now. Like North and South Main St. I can even remember when you could see some of the lake from the Inn on Main is now-used to be the Lakeview Inn.
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Old 01-04-2020, 06:42 PM   #159
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don't be fooled. the lawsuit is not against farm island but the town of Tuftonboro. The town has already spent 20k of tax payers money on the Camp Belknap mess and now this appeal in superior court. Keep in mind all while Camp Belknap pays zero to the town for property tax and asks the rest of the tax payers to pay for it's own
legal shenanigans.
In some towns, camps and other tax exempt entities make payments in lieu of taxes (PILOT). I know that is the case in Moultonborough, and would think that would also apply in Tuftonboro. Does anyone know whether this is so?
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Old 01-04-2020, 06:49 PM   #160
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Default Check this video out

https://youtu.be/AcM9Eh4r-90
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Old 01-04-2020, 07:16 PM   #161
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I am just curious......is Mr. McWhirter going to be the builder involved in this subdivision? If so, his motivation in promoting this video is obvious.
What ordinances or zoning regulations are being broken by the camp?
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Old 01-04-2020, 07:45 PM   #162
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Looking at the waterfront/lake footage, what you see is the campers from YMCA Camp Belknap paddling along in their individual, small-10' length, red solo kayaks propelled by two bladed kayak paddles, with maybe 10 sailboats moving along in the background.

What's not present is even a single motor boat, and comparing a motor boat moving along at 20-45-mph to a group of YMCA Camp Belknap kayak paddlers is like comparing a busy, noisy interstate highway to a quiet hiking path.

Just close your eyes and you can easily imagine the difference.

With no motorboats present, the kayaks quietly paddle along at maybe 4-mph with just the sound of paddled water and camper's voices as opposed to a single loud, noisy boat engine.

Is a wonderful camp waterfront sight to see, campers paddling and sailing along, enjoying the lake with no nitwit, loser motor boater crapp'n up the local waters with his go fast-be loud motor boat.
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Old 01-04-2020, 07:48 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Randy Owen View Post
thank you all for your input. The mission is only to follow local and state law. Farming is allowed. Commercial use is not.

For financial benefits the camp entered into a conservation easement. This easement specifically stated that the cannot build a structure like this. It also says the won't bring power boats to the property. They do bring power boats to their portion Farm Island violating there own easement. They do not properly dispose of human waste and say they do. I only want the laws followed. Please understand.

The records should be understood. The Town has approved the subdivision, but camp Belknap has sued the town and appealed the towns decision. I am buying Farm Island without the subdivision finalized but with the ability to restore the six bedroom cottage (and i will preserve the 1906 status). In the future a structure will be built closer to the water as the 1906 structure is 600 feet from the water. I will be tapping trees for maple syrup and possibly growing Christmas trees.

I have three children. They and their friends will enjoy Farm Island no matter what Camp Belknap tries next. I may sell one lot to only offset the exorbitant costs triggered by Seth Kassels. Other than that the rest is up to my children.

Thank you all for your input and information.
So you're no longer interested in a 10-unit development? Or is it your kids who are interested in the 10-unit development? If neither you nor your kids wants to develop beyond what you've described in this post, please let us know.

BTW, you might be able to donate or sell the development rights to a group such as Lakes Region Conservation Trust. In turn, they might help you enforce the environmental rules you described earlier.
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:01 PM   #164
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Don; This video was previously posted yesterday on Friday 1/3/2020 in post #123.
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Old 01-05-2020, 07:24 AM   #165
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OMG kids having fun that's unheard of this must stop. It's all about the almighty buck that's all this is. And the kids will pay the highest price.
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:01 AM   #166
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In todayís world itís not surprising someone made that video. Everyone has a complaint to air in this world now. But really, weíre going to whine about kids kayaking, playing in the woods, clogging the lake with sailboats or the inconvenience every other Saturday when cars line Chase Point road ( in a neat orderly fashion iíll Add) to pick up kids and new campers arrive. Would you rather these kids sat at home playing video games all day, hung out at the town park and smoked weed or broke into homes to rip you off and sell your stuff to feed drug habits... geeze.
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:38 AM   #167
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I hope no one is buying this ďI only want to historically preserve the islandĒ shtick. My dad once told me, ďA leopard canít change its spots.Ē Unfortunately, Mr O canít change what he is either.


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Old 01-05-2020, 08:57 AM   #168
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I hope no one is buying this ďI only want to historically preserve the islandĒ shtick. My dad once told me, ďA leopard canít change its spots.Ē Unfortunately, Mr O canít change what he is either.


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There does seem to be a sizeable gap between historic preservation and 10/12 lot subdivisions...

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Old 01-05-2020, 10:01 AM   #169
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For what its worth...I have been following this thread and have no affiliation with the camp or Mr Owen so this is pure observation....
1.) I have no doubts that Mr Owen has a checkered past with individuals on this board OR even with commercial interests around the lake. I am not so naive as to assume that developers have anything other than their own financial interests in mind.
2.) I have done some rudimentary research including reviewing the Camp Belknap website and I see nothing indicating that the camp has a legal or other claim to Farm Island. From my vantage..they appear to be squatting there.
3.) My boys enjoyed years at summer camps and I 100% support what these camps do for our boys...HOWEVER...just because of the opportunities these camps give to boys does not give them the right to squat on any land (imagine these boys playing softball in your front yard and your neighbors saying "you're a jerk for not letting them have good clean fun").
4.) these camps are about money also (or they wouldn't be in business) so lets not associate them with charity.
5.) this should be a legal question and not about how an unpopular person here benefits. The town should be deciding if the camp has a legal right to be there and if not...they should be held accountable to return the land to its pristine state and not use the property in the future. If they are legally using the property then Mr Owen should relax and watch the boys enjoying the resource.
6.) it is irrelevant if Mr Owen wants the land for his family or to subdivide as long as he has the legal right to subdivide.

All the final decisions should be made by the town and zoning board and perhaps the court systems. I guess my point is "boys should be allowed to have a good time" is not reason to allow for trespass or for any organization to be allowed to squat on private property. Them doing this previously is not license for them to continue.....all IMHO of course. I have the advantage in this situation of not knowing Mr Owen or having any interest in property on that part of the lake so this is just unbiased observation. I will go back to minding my own business.
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:03 AM   #170
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In todayís world itís not surprising someone made that video. Everyone has a complaint to air in this world now. But really, weíre going to whine about kids kayaking, playing in the woods, clogging the lake with sailboats or the inconvenience every other Saturday when cars line Chase Point road ( in a neat orderly fashion iíll Add) to pick up kids and new campers arrive. Would you rather these kids sat at home playing video games all day, hung out at the town park and smoked weed or broke into homes to rip you off and sell your stuff to feed drug habits... geeze.
I couldnít agree more with your assessment. Over the years, so many camps around the lake have closed, most in favor of real estate development. We still have Tecumseh and Robindel in Moultonborough, and itís great seeing the kids out there having a wonderful time on the water. Itís too bad that Camp Belknap canít have Farm Island in its entirety!
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:26 AM   #171
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For what its worth...I have been following this thread and have no affiliation with the camp or Mr Owen so this is pure observation....
1.) I have no doubts that Mr Owen has a checkered past with individuals on this board OR even with commercial interests around the lake. I am not so naive as to assume that developers have anything other than their own financial interests in mind.
2.) I have done some rudimentary research including reviewing the Camp Belknap website and I see nothing indicating that the camp has a legal or other claim to Farm Island. From my vantage..they appear to be squatting there.
3.) My boys enjoyed years at summer camps and I 100% support what these camps do for our boys...HOWEVER...just because of the opportunities these camps give to boys does not give them the right to squat on any land (imagine these boys playing softball in your front yard and your neighbors saying "you're a jerk for not letting them have good clean fun").
4.) these camps are about money also (or they wouldn't be in business) so lets not associate them with charity.
5.) this should be a legal question and not about how an unpopular person here benefits. The town should be deciding if the camp has a legal right to be there and if not...they should be held accountable to return the land to its pristine state and not use the property in the future. If they are legally using the property then Mr Owen should relax and watch the boys enjoying the resource.
6.) it is irrelevant if Mr Owen wants the land for his family or to subdivide as long as he has the legal right to subdivide.

All the final decisions should be made by the town and zoning board and perhaps the court systems. I guess my point is "boys should be allowed to have a good time" is not reason to allow for trespass or for any organization to be allowed to squat on private property. Them doing this previously is not license for them to continue.....all IMHO of course. I have the advantage in this situation of not knowing Mr Owen or having any interest in property on that part of the lake so this is just unbiased observation. I will go back to minding my own business.
I thought I'd read that the Y had bought portions of Farm Island some years back? (And then offered to buy the rest at the same time as Owen?)

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Old 01-05-2020, 12:07 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by MikeF-NH View Post
For what its worth...I have been following this thread and have no affiliation with the camp or Mr Owen so this is pure observation....
1.) I have no doubts that Mr Owen has a checkered past with individuals on this board OR even with commercial interests around the lake. I am not so naive as to assume that developers have anything other than their own financial interests in mind.
2.) I have done some rudimentary research including reviewing the Camp Belknap website and I see nothing indicating that the camp has a legal or other claim to Farm Island. From my vantage..they appear to be squatting there.
3.) My boys enjoyed years at summer camps and I 100% support what these camps do for our boys...HOWEVER...just because of the opportunities these camps give to boys does not give them the right to squat on any land (imagine these boys playing softball in your front yard and your neighbors saying "you're a jerk for not letting them have good clean fun").
4.) these camps are about money also (or they wouldn't be in business) so lets not associate them with charity.
5.) this should be a legal question and not about how an unpopular person here benefits. The town should be deciding if the camp has a legal right to be there and if not...they should be held accountable to return the land to its pristine state and not use the property in the future. If they are legally using the property then Mr Owen should relax and watch the boys enjoying the resource.
6.) it is irrelevant if Mr Owen wants the land for his family or to subdivide as long as he has the legal right to subdivide.

All the final decisions should be made by the town and zoning board and perhaps the court systems. I guess my point is "boys should be allowed to have a good time" is not reason to allow for trespass or for any organization to be allowed to squat on private property. Them doing this previously is not license for them to continue.....all IMHO of course. I have the advantage in this situation of not knowing Mr Owen or having any interest in property on that part of the lake so this is just unbiased observation. I will go back to minding my own business.
The YMCA is not a business, it's a nonprofit dedicated to helping kids/communities. They're lucky if they can just break even each year.

We regularly debate ethical, right vs wrong issues as well as legal points on this forum.

The courts will resolve the legal issues. Until then, it's pretty tough to sympathize with Mr Owens at the expense of the kids.
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Old 01-05-2020, 02:01 PM   #173
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Not for nothing but it's a bit hard to sympathize with the YMCA when they are filing a lawsuit with the state over their "perceived" opinion that the town planning board did not come to a conclusion to their liking either. Although not a lawyer from a pure common sense perspective looking at their argument I don't see a change in outcome far the proposed subdivision of the island. It would be interesting to know exactly what the YMCA is trying to really achieve here as it is clear to me their intent is to use every measure available to block what they don't want when they had fair opportunity to purchase this property. Same can be said of the neighbors and conservation groups that are now complaining about it.

Far as the complaints about the noise generated from camp activities and the kids out there on the lake having a good time, it's just plain in poor taste. For many of these kids this is a chance of a lifetime to have an experience to be at the lake. Shame on anyone who finds this in anyway offensive or better put to "excessive".

Finally IF there is any violations the camp has committed, they should be held to the same standard as any other property owner. However I get the feeling most if not all of this is grossly exaggerated for the purposes of trying to creating a poor public perception of the camp. There are plenty of minor infractions that 99% of property owners could probably be sited for and I have certainly see a fair number of "liberties" taken that at best are pushing the boundaries of what is "legal" by the strictest adherence to the letter of the law. I'm certainly not going to make a public spectacle because my neighbor moved a rock without proper permits in place.

I find the entire situation sad as it leaves in impression of two immature children fighting and calling one another names. Frankly both parties should knock it off and find a way to be good neighbors because in the end like it or not they are neighbors.
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Old 01-05-2020, 02:04 PM   #174
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I thought I'd read that the Y had bought portions of Farm Island some years back? (And then offered to buy the rest at the same time as Owen?)

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Correct. The Camp did buy approx. 1/3 of the island a few years ago. They also did build a small building or lean to there where the kids sometimes canoe or kayak to. They sometimes use a Lund rowboat with small outboard on it and anchor it next to the island I assume to move the kids gear back and forth.
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Old 01-05-2020, 06:02 PM   #175
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The YMCA is not a business, it's a nonprofit dedicated to helping kids/communities. They're lucky if they can just break even each year.

We regularly debate ethical, right vs wrong issues as well as legal points on this forum.

The courts will resolve the legal issues. Until then, it's pretty tough to sympathize with Mr Owens at the expense of the kids.
Seems to me you're using the court of public opinion here.
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Old 01-05-2020, 06:05 PM   #176
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Far as the complaints about the noise generated from camp activities and the kids out there on the lake having a good time, it's just plain in poor taste. For many of these kids this is a chance of a lifetime to have an experience to be at the lake. Shame on anyone who finds this in anyway offensive or better put to "excessive".
Bravo!....
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Old 01-05-2020, 07:22 PM   #177
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Correct. The Camp did buy approx. 1/3 of the island a few years ago. They also did build a small building or lean to there where the kids sometimes canoe or kayak to. They sometimes use a Lund rowboat with small outboard on it and anchor it next to the island I assume to move the kids gear back and forth.
There is a small wooden platform the kids sleep on (no walls or anything) To my knowledge that’s the extent of it.
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:17 PM   #178
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The zoning ordinances in most towns set a square foot limit on what is a structure. Less than that number does not require a permit and does not have to meet setbacks. Presumably, this "sleeping platform" is not a structure.
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:28 PM   #179
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There is a small wooden platform the kids sleep on (no walls or anything) To my knowledge thatís the extent of it.
Itís definitely more than that.
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Old 01-05-2020, 10:07 PM   #180
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It’s definitely more than that.
For a portion of the summer there is a tarp thing that is hung over it and down the sides to provide cover for the kids that sleep on the platform but it isn’t permanent. I believe the platform itself is the only fixed item.
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Old 01-06-2020, 05:57 PM   #181
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Looks to me like Mr Owens would like the camp off the island so he can develop it all, I doubt he will ever stop until that happens.
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Old 01-07-2020, 08:20 PM   #182
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I hope this helps:
The mission is only to follow local and state law. Farming is allowed. Commercial use is not.
For financial benefits the camp entered into a conservation easement. This easement specifically states what they can and cannot do. They violate their
own easement. They do not properly dispose of human waste and say they do. I only want the laws followed. Please understand.
The records should be understood. The Town has approved the subdivision, but camp Belknap has sued the town and appealed the towns decision. I am buying Farm Island without the subdivision finalized but with the ability to restore the six bedroom cottage (and i will preserve the 1906 status). In the future a structure will be built closer to the water as the 1906 structure is 600 feet from the water. I will be tapping trees for maple syrup, bee keeping and possibly growing Christmas trees.
I have three children. They and their friends will enjoy Farm Island no matter what Camp Belknap tries next. I may sell one lot to only offset the exorbitant costs triggered by Seth Kassels. Other than that the rest is up to my children.
Thank you all for your input and information.
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Old 01-08-2020, 08:26 AM   #183
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Will you put that in the deed?


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Old 01-09-2020, 12:13 PM   #184
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Will you put that in the deed?


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What exactly do you want put in the deed? That the rest is up to his children?

Seems the campers may be going number 1 or number 2 while they spend time on Farm Island and are not disposing of it properly. Maybe the camp should put a port -o- potty on the island. Or impose a carry in, carry out requirement for any campers that spend time there.

As for the video - I think it is absolutely ridiculous that someone would complain about the scenes of people enjoying themselves on the lake.

So much for "Live free or Die". Seems more like - "Live free, but not near Me"
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Old 01-09-2020, 12:23 PM   #185
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So much for "Live free or Die". Seems more like - "Live free, but not near Me"
The entirety of John Stark's now famous toast is "Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils."
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Old 01-09-2020, 06:20 PM   #186
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The Camp Belknap requests states that they use a ďleave no traceĒ experience and that counselors and campers handle human waste. This is not the case and a blatant lie. The smell of urine was intense many weeks after the camp had stopped using Farm Island.
The only 'smell'..... many weeks after the camp had stopped.... Hopefully is KARMA!
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Old 01-10-2020, 01:15 PM   #187
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I didn't care about this issue until someone started attacking Camp Belknap. I'm 100% in support of Camp Belknap's interests. We need to preserve ways for more people (especially those less fortunate) to enjoy the lake.
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Old 01-10-2020, 01:17 PM   #188
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Wasnít there a meeting the other night? Does anyone know what happened?
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Old 01-11-2020, 08:21 AM   #189
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I didn't care about this issue until someone started attacking Camp Belknap. I'm 100% in support of Camp Belknap's interests. We need to preserve ways for more people (especially those less fortunate) to enjoy the lake.
Although I support Camp Belknap in this and as contributor, please don’t confuse the Camp with other camps that host less privileged kids from inner cities for free. When I attended in the early 60s, my parents paid and I assume it is that way still today.


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Old 01-11-2020, 11:29 AM   #190
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Although I support Camp Belknap in this and as contributor, please donít confuse the Camp with other camps that host less privileged kids from inner cities for free. When I attended in the early 60s, my parents paid and I assume it is that way still today.


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Fair point--but one other difference from the 60s is that skyrocketing waterfront values make it more difficult for most families who aren't local to enjoy the lake. Belknap is making it possible for hundreds of kids each Summer to have the kind of access that is otherwise only available to those lucky enough to have waterfront homes.
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Old 01-11-2020, 01:31 PM   #191
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Although I support Camp Belknap in this and as contributor, please don’t confuse the Camp with other camps that host less privileged kids from inner cities for free. When I attended in the early 60s, my parents paid and I assume it is that way still today.


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While there are obviously plenty of paying campers, according to their last annual report they provided a bit over $200k in scholarship assistance in 2018 for campers who otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford to attend.
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Old 01-18-2020, 10:17 AM   #192
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While there are obviously plenty of paying campers, according to their last annual report they provided a bit over $200k in scholarship assistance in 2018 for campers who otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford to attend.
Yes, that is true but I believe that this amount is consumed in their two tiered “honor” tuition. Whereby you can select the full or discounted price with no financial document backup required.


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