Wolfeboro Docks Question

AC2717 · 06-28-2007, 08:08 AM

Hi all forum learkers

,

Heading over to Wolfeboro on Saturday with some guests for their first time, wanted to know if anyone ever cleared the air on the restrictions on the docks I have not been over there this year yet myself.
Thank you

secondcurve · 06-29-2007, 05:37 AM

There was a picture in the Grunter with a guy standing in front of two restricted (handicapped) docking spots. The sad thing about this is that there will be one boat there a week, if that. Otherwise they will sit empty. Given the heavy requirements on that docking facilty, it is too bad this got through. Couldn't we have lived with one spot? If one is handicapped and spent the entire day on the lake, would it hurt for them to spend another 10 minutes waiting for a spot? And aren't all the spots relatively equal in that the handicapped person will have to get into a wheel chair when exiting a boat anyway so does it really matter where the spots are located on the dock? After given this some thought, I have come out against this change. I understand the concept and intent and I'm all for helping out handicapped people; if I saw someone having trouble I'd be the first one to help or offer my spot. I just don't think Wolfeboro should have tied up this many resources for the very occasional need.

Dave R · 06-29-2007, 07:25 AM

I gotta agree with secondcurve. The idea may have been good but the exectution is awful. Handicapped spots should be closest to the parking lot. It looks like the town reserved spots that are convenient to boating but terribly inconvenient to anyone that struggle with walking. I suspect that if walking was difficult, one would not mind a tight squeeze going into an "inside" spot to get that much closer to land.

kjbathe · 06-29-2007, 07:46 AM

What are the requirements to use the handicapped spots? Do you need a placard, a dock-specific permit, or just some visible impairment to be eligible?

camp guy · 06-29-2007, 08:22 AM

The gentleman standing by the sign in the paper in this week's issue of the Granite State News has been on a campaign to get handicapped spaces all over Town. Fine, maybe, if there was a need, but when you sit and watch the general population you just do not see all that many (if any) truly handicapped people. And with respect to boating, this is an excess interpretation of the law. This particular gentleman is correct in his knowledge of the ADA, and he is connected to the upper level ADA people, but his efforts at implementation are excessive.

jrc · 06-29-2007, 10:41 AM

The spaces do seem to be picked for ease of docking. That was one of my favorite spots.

The number of spots is always a question, many stores seem to have way more spots than they need. But it's probably better than not enough.

Don't you wish we lived in a society that didn't need these spots? People with extra needs would just be waved to the front of the line.

secondcurve · 06-30-2007, 07:04 PM

I went by the Wolfeboro town docks today and of course the two handicapped spots were open and space was very tight with boats waiting to dock. Why couldn't the state have issued special flags to handicapped boaters (I'm assuming there are more than one on the lake, but I'm not all that sure) that could be used to move them to the front of the line for docking? Too simple a solution, I guess!

wires1999 · 06-30-2007, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secondcurve

I went by the Wolfeboro town docks today and of course the two handicapped spots were open and space was very tight with boats waiting to dock. Why couldn't the state have issued special flags to handicapped boaters (I'm assuming there are more than one on the lake, but I'm not all that sure) that could be used to move them to the front of the line for docking? Too simple a solution, I guess!

I thought the last time this subject came up it was not enforced by police or MP thus no ticket such as with legit HC parking spots. This man who "oversees" this is purely just an overzealous advocate for ADA and has no business harassing people. Is this still true?

Seaplane Pilot · 07-02-2007, 09:06 AM

On this subject of handicap parking: I have no problem with specific parking spots on city streets being designated as handicap parking spots. What kills me is in Manchester for example, all the parking spaces downtown have parking meters, except for the handicap parking spaces. Why should the people using these spaces get free parking? Never understood this.

AC2717 · 07-02-2007, 09:31 AM

I agree seaplane, just because handicapped does not mean they should not pay, they already have preferred parking, My father was impaired for very long time and had a placard for the car window. He never drove because he could not but was allowed a placard, which is in a lot of cases. It was great to always have a parking spot up close for him when needed or when he was in the car, but never understood why you did not have to pay meter, in MA if you have a placard you can park in any metered spot and not pay the meter.

I am all for a handicap spot on the docks, but that does not mean I want them to move to the front of the line to get to the dock before anyone else. If they are on the lake they should wait like everyone else. It is a lot different than the streets. If the spot is open for them then yes go in front of me and take the handicapped spot, if it is not though have to wait in line for another on or until that spot is available, which ever you prefer.

MeEscape · 07-02-2007, 07:18 PM

Good thought, but very poor execution and life is all about execution, however.

I actually invited 'this guy" onboard a few weeks ago and had a lengthy discussion regarding his objectives and offered him many suggestions on how to better approach his efforts. He was very appreciative and thanked me for my suggestions and left. As he was leaving (after about 30 minutes of discussions) he told me he had my bow numbers and was turning them into the NHMP. Nice guy I thought!!

secondcurve · 07-03-2007, 05:40 AM

Somehow it doesn't surprise me that this guy would do this. The world has gone crazy with political correctness!

Dave R · 07-03-2007, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeEscape

Good thought, but very poor execution and life is all about execution, however.

I actually invited 'this guy" onboard a few weeks ago and had a lengthy discussion regarding his objectives and offered him many suggestions on how to better approach his efforts. He was very appreciative and thanked me for my suggestions and left. As he was leaving (after about 30 minutes of discussions) he told me he had my bow numbers and was turning them into the NHMP. Nice guy I thought!!

Seriously? This is the guy who is responsible for the signs? Sounds like a Sienfeld character.

Kamper · 07-03-2007, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

On this subject of handicap parking: ... all the parking spaces downtown have parking meters, except for the handicap parking spaces. Why should the people using these spaces get free parking? Never understood this.

I believe the rational is that a mobility impaired person may have trouble getting back and forth to feed the meter. I dont disagre with you but it's such a small thing I'm not going to worry about it.

SIKSUKR · 07-05-2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

On this subject of handicap parking: I have no problem with specific parking spots on city streets being designated as handicap parking spots. What kills me is in Manchester for example, all the parking spaces downtown have parking meters, except for the handicap parking spaces. Why should the people using these spaces get free parking? Never understood this.

Actually SP,you can park at any meter in Manchester for free if you have a HC plate or placard.It says it right on the meter.

RLW · 07-05-2007, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

Actually SP, you can park at any meter in Manchester for free if you have a HC plate or placard. It says it right on the meter.

You are so right SIKSUKR, that is the case all over the US. And we have many other privileges also, but I won't go into them as then another BIG debate will start. I for one that only has one leg is very happy for them all.

SIKSUKR · 07-05-2007, 01:12 PM

I didn't know if that was just a local or national deal.

Rattlesnake Guy · 07-06-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamper

I believe the rational is that a mobility impaired person may have trouble getting back and forth to feed the meter.

Kamper, that is the first logical reason I have ever heard. It is nice to have one of life's mysteries checked off the list.

I was at the Weirs yesterday and right at the train station cross walk I observed a handicap parking spot with no meter. It had a 15 minute time limit. I could not help but think that it was strange to offer free parking to someone who needs a little help but then give them a deadline to move the car or else.

RLW · 07-06-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Kamper, that is the first logical reason I have ever heard. It is nice to have one of life's mysteries checked off the list.
I was at the Weirs yesterday and right at the train station cross walk I observed a handicap parking spot with no meter. It had a 15 minute time limit.

To my knowledge there is NO time limit on handicap parking, meter or no meter. It may list it, but I believe it is either a mistake or they would have a very hard time to collect any and all fines.

Islander · 07-07-2007, 05:08 PM

Going back to feed a parking meter is illegal. When a meter has a two hour limit, that means you must leave within two hours. Putting more money in may prevent a ticket, but you are breaking the law. Also any time on the meter when you park is not yours. If you are parking for an hour you must put in an hours fee not matter how much is on the meter.

Last time I went to Wolfeboro I parked in the handicapped spaces. I was looking for someone to say something but nobody did.

RLW · 07-07-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

Last time I went to Wolfeboro I parked in the handicapped spaces. I was looking for someone to say something but nobody did.

It's people like you that know better but do it anyway that really deserve the tickets and one heck of a fine. If I had been around you would have gotten it.

wildwoodfam · 07-07-2007, 09:02 PM

I really do not get the concept of handicapped boat docks. I get that handicapped folks need that advantage in a parking lot - or on the street. To be closer to the shops, condos, restaurants, etc... that all makes sense.

BUT what I do not understand is the true purpose of a handicap boat dock? Its not set up for an advantage on proximity - it seems to me to be set up for advantage on not having to queue up for a spot? Why does the handicapped boater get to "pass go and collect 200" while the rest of us sit and wait our turns for a dock space? There seems not to be equity in that situation in Wolfeboro.

Where did handicapped boaters dock in Wolfeboro before the spaces were reserved this season?

I just do not get it?

jrc · 07-07-2007, 10:52 PM

These spots are clearly not intended to be the shortest walk. So they may be chosen as the easiest to dock at. Or they are just reserved so handicapped boaters don't have to wait. It seems like a reasonable kindness for people needing extra help. But, it should be a law or not at all. You can't have a zealot making up their own rules, it's no way to run a town.

Things like this start out well but can snowball. A family member lives in senior housing, where almost all the parking spots are labeled handicapped. There have been fist fights over who was handicapped enough to get close spots.

Get used to this type of thing, the baby boomers are getting older. The "Me" generation all think they are entitled to special treatment, and they'll sue to get it. Once everyone gets handicapped plates, then what do you do? Have different levels of handicapped?

Islander · 07-08-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

It's people like you that know better but do it anyway that really deserve the tickets and one heck of a fine. If I had been around you would have gotten it.

"Civil disobedience" is a time honored method of protesting laws that are wrong. I'm not Rosa Parks, but the principal is the same. Ms Parks certainly "knew better".

However my actions were not even civil disobedience since I didn't violate anything and could not have been ticketed or fined even if you were there!

The best way to protest what is happening is to go to Wolfeboro and park in the spaces. It does a lot more than posting here.

secondcurve · 07-08-2007, 10:21 AM

Before the issue of reserving handicapped boat spaces got underway, I think the state should have had a box on its registration renewal form asking if the the registrant was handicapped. If enough folks checked the box, then the need could have been estimated. If it was great (which I still doubt for obvious reasons) then the following year the state could have required a doctors note with the renewal application to determine who was handicapped.
These folks could then be issued special handicapped plates or bow numbers.

Even in my system there would be no need for handicapped docking spots since the special bow number would move the boater to the front of the docking line for the next acceptable available spot.

RLW maybe you should try to pursue the implemenation of this system rather than hanging around the town docks looking for trouble. My guess is that most, if not all forum members, would embrace such a system as it would not waste limited docking resources while meeting the needs of those few who truly need some help.

kjbathe · 07-08-2007, 11:02 AM

I docked in the handicapped spot yesterday around noon and was happy to see one available. The folks waiting to dock were numerous and were like vultures waiting for a bite of a new carcass. I was happy to be able to cut the whole line and avoid that nonsense. Can folks just back off a little bit when waiting for spots -- it makes it a heck of a lot easier for you to dock if you'll actually let folks OUT of the dock first. It made Christmas parking at the mall look good, but I digress...

We pulled in, tied up and cleaned up the boat a bit when a gentleman approached my wife and me to note that the spots were intended for the handicapped, which we clearly are not. I still have no idea how we are supposed to identify "legitimate" handicapped boaters, but the honor system certainly doesn't do it as the three other boaters I saw use the spaces had no visible or otherwise apparent disability.

That being said, about five minutes before the gentleman approached us we had helped my father-in-law off the boat. The victim of a massive stroke, he has a very visible physical impairment, walks (slowly) with a cane, and needs a lot of help off and on the boat. Short of having a wheelchair, if there's a definition of a handicapped boater, he fits it. And we were happy to be able to cut in line yesterday to dock...because we were hungry and didn't want to wait for lunch.

That's really the sum total benefit of the handicapped spaces in our eyes -- they're a time saver. They're no closer to the parking lot or restaurants. They're still subject to the same wake and fluctuating water levels as the other spaces. (Note: His boating season is almost over this year because it's too hard to get in/out with the lower water levels). And if you ask me if the handicapped spots are a good idea -- as we discussed at dinner last night -- we agreed that they are not, for the very reasons I just noted. What's the other tangible benefit for the impaired? Especially when there's no established protocol or apparent enforcement for their use/misuse.

This is one view from legitimate users of the handicapped spaces: We just don't get it.

Rattlesnake Guy · 07-08-2007, 04:13 PM

Most of us are confused about the implementation of the current handicap spots.

I wonder if the collective brain power in this group could actually come up with a dock modification that would allow people easier access to and from the boat as the water level moves 18 inches during the year.

Any good ideas that would actually help. I know that my elderly parents have to time their annual visit to my island so that the water is at a reasonable height for getting in and out of the boat at both ends.

wires1999 · 07-08-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

You are so right SIKSUKR, that is the case all over the US. And we have many other privileges also, but I won't go into them as then another BIG debate will start. I for one that only has one leg is very happy for them all.

Let me start by saying I sympathize with your handicap, But, and this is a huge but, if there isn't actually a RSA: addressing these new handicap spots down there @ these docks, where do you or anyone else have the right to tell someone you can or cannot dock there. You can't just come up with an idea, and this one is just not needed, and shove it down our throats. I can tell you this I won't have any of your comments or looks when I do dock my boat at these docks I can tell you that. ps, careful who you challenge the next time at these dock, you never know who your dealing with.

Mee-n-Mac · 07-08-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Most of us are confused about the implementation of the current handicap spots.

I wonder if the collective brain power in this group could actually come up with a dock modification that would allow people easier access to and from the boat as the water level moves 18 inches during the year.

Any good ideas that would actually help. I know that my elderly parents have to time their annual visit to my island so that the water is at a reasonable height for getting in and out of the boat at both ends.

You do what people with tides do ... you float the dock. The deck then stays the same height above the water. Generally a ramp, hinged at both ends, connects the floating part to any fixed (non-floating) part. The ramp then telescopes to account for the different length needed at high and low tides. Another more common method is to have the ramp (gangway) hinged at the fixed end and on wheels at the floating end so it rolls over the floater as it rises and falls.

I guess another method would be a "high" dock with a boat lift the picks the boat up and brings it to the dock's level, no matter the water level. So it's a lot of extra effort (and $$s) for the small "tide" we get each season.

Perhaps something a little less elaborate could be done for Winni ? The only idea that jumps to mind is to build a "low" dock and when the boat floats "high" above the dock early in the season ... use some steps to get up to the boat. Change the steps to lower ones as the "tide goes out" during the season.

As for the handicapped docks ... kjbathe pretty much summed up my thoughts.

Islander · 07-08-2007, 09:41 PM

I don't think special registrations is the answer. Boats are not like cars which are essential transportation. I doubt very many handicapped own boats. More likely they catch a ride on someone else's. I have had several people on my boat that have handicapped placards.

The best boating answer is a pontoon boat. You can open the side gate and just step or roll on-board. Much easier than trying to climb up and down over the gunwale.

AC2717 · 07-09-2007, 06:55 AM

Boaters are boaters and that is it. If you are handicapped then you are, and if I am not I am not. Boating has and will always be a recreation ACTIVITY! I was reading the thread as always and noticed that someone had a handicapped Father-in-law from a massive stroke that cut the line to the dock and docked up at the handicap marked dock. WHY? that person that was impaired was a passenger on the vessel not the owner, and those docks are not even the closest to get to the shore. I do not think it is fair for others to have to wait in line, now if the person was a vetran then yes they should always have the right of way for putting their lives in danger for ours so we should return the favor. I just do not get it if you are able to get on the water in a boat then you are able to dock the boat anywhere like the rest of us and therefore wait in line like the rest of us. I think the line was "We did not want to wait for lunch," So doesn't the 15 other boats in line waiting to dock because they do not have a handicapped person on board. I am all for handicapped benefits on land, do not get me wrong, and I have expereince with it but on the water it is different esepcially when there is limited dock space to begin with and when the dock itself is not truely set up to be a handicapped dock. If they were to change the docks out there and made some handicapped friendly and made them the closest to the parking lot or stores then I can agree.

The only one on land I do not understand is how come a super store like Lowe's has abput 20 handicapped spots in one row that goes halfway down the parking lot yet there are much closer spots that are not handicapped at the beginning of other rows wouldn't make sense to make the first 2 or 4 spots in every row closest to the store handicapped instead of one whole row?

SIKSUKR · 07-09-2007, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLW

To my knowledge there is NO time limit on handicap parking, meter or no meter. It may list it, but I believe it is either a mistake or they would have a very hard time to collect any and all fines.

The meters in Manchester say handicap parking is free - limit 4 hours.

Taz · 07-16-2007, 08:53 PM

I talked to the official walking the docks in Wolfboro regarding the handicap docking. I believe he also keeps track of autos in the parking lot at the town docks(he has the tool marking the tires to keep track of how long they are parked there) There is no statute to cover handicap docking. If you dock there you can not be given a ticket. It is only a suggestion. There is nothing at that dock that makes it any easier than any other dock at the Wolfboro town docks for an individual who is physically impaired to disembark from their boat. If I am in Wolfboro and there is no other space to dock, I will dock at the area with painted blue posts if no one else wants to dock there and I am next in line.

If someone is boating and they are physically impaired then they were somehow able to enter the boat where they started from and they can disembark in Wolfboro at the town dock the same way. They should wait like everyone else.

The official I talked to was very angry that this dock was designated for handicap docking. He told me that over the winter without telling him the entire dock was taken for handicap docking. He protested to the authorities citing there is no statute to allow this and they relented agreed to what it is now presently. He all but outright told me to dock there if I wished.

I suggest every one else do the same. What fair is fair and this is not. This is nothing more than allowing someone to cut line.

oliviernh · 07-17-2007, 07:06 AM

Taz, unfortunately whoever gave you that information is incorrect. Anyone who has noticed the blue posts go halfway down on the outermost dock. Also the blue handicapped signs coincide with the blue posts. Two weekends ago I docked in the spot closest to shore on the outermost dock. this was after the blue posts and there were no handicapped signs going up that far on the dock. We ran to the hardware store and rite-aid and when we came back I had a nice bright orange ticket on my windshield for $250 for parking in a handicapped spot. The ticket also said if I had a handicapped tag it had to be displayed. Every boat on the outside dock had a ticket on their windshield.

We were a little upset!! We pulled out and started to leave when we saw the marine patrol guy walking the docks. I turned the boat around and went back to my same parking spot (as no one had taken it yet). We proceeded to call the officer over and point out to him the blue posts only go 1/2 way down and we were clearly way past them. He said "well there is a sign right here" (at the end of the dock), however it is facing inland and you can't see it when pulling up in the boat. He explained that the whole outside of the dock was for handicapped parking and it was a serious offense and hence the ticket for $250, but he understood our argument and kindly decided to give us a warning and ripped up the ticket! But said next time we must diplay our handicapped tag if we had one. I told him I never heard of anyone getting one with thier boat. He didn't really have an answer for that.

At anyrate they can and will ticket you. I have a ticket to prove it, however it is now ripped in half and "warning" is written over it in black marker.

kjbathe · 07-17-2007, 07:37 AM

This is really a mess, isn't it? Following up on my earlier post when we "legitimately" used the spaces, I also thought we should be hanging the handicapped placard. But then I realized it was going to be hard to hang the placard on the boat at the same time it was hanging in the car.

Perhaps we all need handicapped license plates instead of the placard, and then we can place one of the plates on the windshield of the boat???

And the whole side of the dock is restricted even though the few spots are clearly marked with blue and individual signs that DO face the water? With that logic one could argue that the whole row of parking spaces at Wal-Mart is for handicapped use even though only some of spaces are blue and the remainder are white because there's a sign at the end of the row??? Did they run out of blue paint in Wolfeboro and we're just supposed to know the intent was to keep painting the whole side?

It's clear to me that few, if any, know what the rules are for the use of these spots or how their mis/use should be enforced. I'm still seeing the only benefit as time savings for handicapped boaters. And to AC2717's point above, I don't think the time of disabled individuals is any more valuable than the rest of ours. Unless/until a coherent and enforceable policy can be developed and communicated, the spaces should be opened up for everyone to use.

jrc · 07-17-2007, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oliviernh

.... I have a ticket to prove it, however it is now ripped in half and "warning" is written over it in black marker.

What law does the ticket say you violated?

camp guy · 07-17-2007, 09:39 AM

The whole situation at the Wolfeboro Town docks regarding handicapped boat parking can be summed up in very plain, simple language: The local selectman don't have the @#%%s to tell Mr Hanson to stop being such a pain in the backside. Mr Hanson is only doing this to continually prove his point. Okay, we get it. Now quit it. In all my time around the Wolfeboro docks I have NEVER seen him boating. He was upset with the boat show a few years ago because he couldn't park his car in the designated handicapped space; however, the boat show committee had made other, more generous arrangements for handicapped parking during the show, but he wanted the originally designated space. Somebody needs to tell the Emperor his new clothes are inappropriate.

skprbob · 07-17-2007, 10:02 AM

olivernh - Yes, this is really confusing. I assume the guy you talked to about the ticket was a Wolfeboro officer of some sort, perhaps one of their traffic control people, and not a Marine Patrol officer. As a former NHMP officer, I can tell you that the Marine Patrol does not have jurisdiction over docks or docking. It's up to individual towns to enforce their own rules concerning docks.

I spoke this morning to the Wolfeboro PD. The dispatcher was even uncertain about what was going on, but it's developing. The chief called me back promptly with the following useful information:

Although the docks are marked, there is presently no ordinance governing the parking. An ordinance is being worked on, but until one is passed, no formal enforcement action can be taken. In other words, you cannot be cited for violation of a non-existent rule. No ordinance = no violation. You should not have received a ticket of any sort, and the chief would like to hear from anyone who does receive one so he can straighten out his enforcement. Until an ordinance is passed, the use of the handicapped dock is an "honor system" proposition.

I hope this clears up at least some of the confusion.

BTW - camp guy - You're absolutely right. Mr. Hanson is apparently another example of the ADA gone crazy. Like many other examples, the ADA was a perfectly good and necessary law which has been corrupted to ridiculous extremes such as this. Here we go again!

Skip · 07-17-2007, 10:12 AM

Skprbob is correct. New Hampshire State law empowers cities and towns within the State to regulate docking within their particular jurisdictions by city or town ordinance. The Town of Wolfeboro therefore can declare certain docks "Handicap Access Only" but must do so by passing an applicable town ordinance in compliance with their respective town charter.

When & if such a town ordinance were passed, it would only be enforceable by the Town itself. The NHMP would have no jurisdiction to enforce a town ordinance.

oliviernh · 07-17-2007, 10:56 AM

Skprbob and Skip, I'm sure you're correct and I misspoke regarding a "marine patrol" officer. He was some type of enforcement officer but I guess I'm not sure from where. I assume Wolfeboro enforcement. As far as cited offense, it was for docking/parking in a handicapped spot. I wish I had the ticket with me (then I might post a copy here) but it is at the lake. I will look at it this weekend when I get up there and see what other information is on it. I don't want to get anyone in trouble as the officer was very nice and understanding once we pleaded our case to him. I was glad to get it taken care of there because I was definately going to fight it but of course that would have meant missed work and hassle etc.

skprbob · 07-17-2007, 11:30 AM

olivernh et al - My conversation with the Wolfeboro chief clearly indicated that handicapped parking for motor vehicles and handicapped docking for boats were separate issues. An ordinance regarding handicapped parking on land exists and one can be ticketed for violations. No such ordinance regarding handicapped docking exists, so you cannot be ticketed unless/until such an ordinance is passed by the Town of Wolfeboro. The chief was not intent on getting any of his officers in any trouble - his goal was to make sure that everyone on his force was aware of the difference. I'd say the officer who gave you the ticket was simply misapplying a land-based motor vehicle ordinance to the docks.

Taz · 07-17-2007, 06:15 PM

Skpbob and skip are correct. I called the Town of Wolfboro and the Wolfboro police and both confirmed there is no RSA or town ordinance to enforce the handicap parking at the Wolfboro town docks. Both also confirmed that no one is ticketing anyone for parking there that does not have some one who is handicapped on their boat. THIS IS NOT BEING ENFORCED.

When I enquired further on my call to the town offices of Wolfboro, in a nutshell, this an attempt to appease someone because the town hall as well as other parts of Wolfboro are not handicap accessible. The town offices also said that the Govenors Commission on disability is another source for more information on this matter. A Cheryl Killam is a contact in that office.

Obviously, someone is applying pressure to the Town of Wolfboro. No other town with town docking on the lake has designated handicap parking for boats. When I pressed the point that if anything the space designated is further away than any other of the docks, the answer was, "thats what they requested" It remains to be seen who they are.

Taz · 07-17-2007, 06:35 PM

On another note AC2717 posted that his father did not drive but received a placard anyway. Why? If you are not driving, whoever is driving can stop and drop you off at the entrance to where ever you are going, much closer than walking from a handicap spot.

tis · 07-17-2007, 07:25 PM

You are right, Taz, someone is applyling pressure. So much so that they (not sure if it was the feds or the state but I think it was the state) came in and checked the whole town and identified all the spots that needed to become handicapped accessible.

KTO · 07-17-2007, 07:46 PM

The one thing that I don't think anyone took in was: How will this help?

If someone is visually impaired, why are they driving?

If someone is physically impaired, what makes them deserve the spot? It's not any shorter, it's the same as the rest of the dock.

If someone has a medical issue:
A) Carry the medication with you
B) Let him/her off at the END of the dock which is DEFINITELY always open

Did I miss anything?

Skip · 07-17-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KTO

The one thing that I don't think anyone took in was: How will this help?

If someone is visually impaired, why are they driving?

If someone is physically impaired, what makes them deserve the spot? It's not any shorter, it's the same as the rest of the dock.

If someone has a medical issue:
A) Carry the medication with you
B) Let him/her off at the END of the dock which is DEFINITELY always open

Did I miss anything?

Excellent points!

But what you are missing is the fact that you are invoking the doctrine of common sense within the framework of this discussion.

It appears to me that at least one person pushing his particular agenda is invoking his doctrine of perceived entitlement.

Unfortunately when it comes to government common sense usually clashes with perceived entitlements!

jrc · 07-17-2007, 08:39 PM

OK, there is no law, rule or town ordinance, and neither the Marine Patrol or the Wolfeboro PD is enforcing the law that doesn't exist.

So who put the tickets on OliverNH's boat and the other boats that he witnessed with tickets?

How many of those other boaters paid those tickets because they thought there was a law or couldn't afford the time to fight the ticket in court?

This is a real mess.

Rattlesnake Guy · 07-17-2007, 10:31 PM

We all seem to agree that this solution appears to add zero advantage to the handicapped boaters except for the potential to cut in line. An advantage I would hope would not be relished. I really hope the voters will not continue this failed gesture. This family loves to spend time and dollars in the town but not having a vote in the election would have to vote with our feet and dollars.

How about adding some new spaces that actually are handicap advantaged without taking the precious existing spaces out of the que. How many dollars are lost when we give up and turn away.

Islander · 07-17-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

OK, there is no law, rule or town ordinance, and neither the Marine Patrol or the Wolfeboro PD is enforcing the law that doesn't exist.

So who put the tickets on OliverNH's boat and the other boats that he witnessed with tickets?

How many of those other boaters paid those tickets because they thought there was a law or couldn't afford the time to fight the ticket in court?

This is a real mess.

The most likely answer to who put the tickets on the boats is that they are not real tickets. Hanson might have taken orange paper and printed "dummy" tickets.

Another possibility is olivernh is Hanson.

oliviernh · 07-18-2007, 07:03 AM

Islander, I'm definately not Hanson (don't even know who he is). Just another islander like yourself (Rattlesnake-actually my screen name is my last name). I will get my ticket this weekend when I go to the lake and post a copy. Maybe that will clear up some questions as I am now curious myself as to exactly who issued the ticket.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from anyone else who also got a ticket at the town docks?

AC2717 · 07-18-2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taz

On another note AC2717 posted that his father did not drive but received a placard anyway. Why? If you are not driving, whoever is driving can stop and drop you off at the entrance to where ever you are going, much closer than walking from a handicap spot.

Reason being was yes while I agree that it should have been possible to drop off at the front door and then go park, and it was done a couple of times, the problem was that he was able to push or hold himself in the Wheelchair. It was a matter of also when leaving the stores carrying what was purchased and pushing him out of the stores as well. There was a lot of time and effort involved from the beginning and it sort of made him feel like a real person instead of a burden because of all the work you had to go through.

But I do agree the situations need to be evaluated on a person by person basis for handicapped placards because every situation is different.

Maybe they should have just made one that allowed us to park close to the stores but not get free parking on the streets with the meters. They should separate the privileges.

MAINLANDER · 07-18-2007, 07:31 AM

Bout time to boycott Wolfeboro and let the business owners apply a little pressure from their end.

MJM · 07-18-2007, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oliviernh

.....We proceeded to call the officer over and point out to him the blue posts only go 1/2 way down and we were clearly way past them. .... He explained that the whole outside of the dock was for handicapped parking....

Whomever this was (and if you discover it was Mr Hanson, he should be charged with impersonating a law enforcement officer) was wrong.

This is a portion of an email I received from the Wboro Town Manager when I inquired about this topic weeks ago. (I was pleased with his prompt, courteous, and informative reply.)

============================
.....As you may know, a formal complaint against the Town of Wolfeboro has been filed at the U.S. Dept. of Justice about the Town's lack of compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act. (ADA). One of the compliance measures involves designating two boat slips at the Town docks as reserved for handicapped, just like there are spaces reserved in parking lots for handicapped drivers. The rest of the dock remains open for use by the public.
============================

I think I'll print a copy of his email and keep it in the boat....

Rattlesnake Guy · 07-18-2007, 09:55 AM

Maybe the town's official position should be posted below the sign on the dock for all to see.

MJM · 07-18-2007, 12:03 PM

The thing I worry about is "what's next?". Is the designation just the first step? Next will the town will be required to install lifts, special ramps, docks of a different material, etc......? Scary.

idigtractors · 07-19-2007, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJM

The thing I worry about is "what's next?". Is the designation just the first step? Next will the town will be required to install lifts, special ramps, docks of a different material, etc......? Scary.

You know, many of you were very upset and had some awful things to say when the smoking ban went into affect, but you know it worked out just fine as we worked with the system. Maybe this will work out the same way. Give things a chance and if it still doesn't work out go the proper route to try and get it changed instead of spilling out all the grievances he where nothing can be done about it.

SIKSUKR · 07-19-2007, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idigtractors

You know, many of you were very upset and had some awful things to say when the smoking ban went into affect, but you know it worked out just fine as we worked with the system. Maybe this will work out the same way. Give things a chance and if it still doesn't work out go the proper route to try and get it changed instead of spilling out all the grievances he where nothing can be done about it.

HUH? That analogy is quite a stretch. What does a smoking ban have to do with the issues being raised here? I have not participated in this discussion but choose to read what members thoughts and frustrations are. So, nobody should be discussing this? HUH?

Skip · 07-19-2007, 08:43 AM

Have to agree with you 100% SIKSUKR.

Because of discussion on this well read web site we have learned that the supposed regulation has no force of law, that there is a possibility that tickets may have been issued improperly and that the Wolfeboro Police Chief is aware of the situation and working to resolve it.

In addition many positive suggestions have been made to possibly create a viable handicap system if the Town of Wolfeboro does decide to legally and properly pursue that course of action.

I believe this has been a very pertinent Lake related thread that once again has resulted in positive ramifications for the folks that visit here!

Thanks once again Don for providing such a great venue to shape and mold the future of the Lakes region by providing a well moderated board for topical discussion!

Fun4us · 07-19-2007, 10:42 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that I saw all the posts on the far right painted and marked. Wasn't it noted here that there are only supose to be two spots?

Mee-n-Mac · 07-19-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJM

The thing I worry about is "what's next?". Is the designation just the first step? Next will the town will be required to install lifts, special ramps, docks of a different material, etc......? Scary.

A good question and here's what I could find out ...

(from http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm )

15.2 Boating Facilities.

15.2.1 General. Newly designed or newly constructed and altered boating facilities shall comply with 15.2.

15.2.2* Accessible Route. Accessible routes, including gangways that are part of accessible routes, shall comply with 4.3. Appendix Note

EXCEPTION 1. Where an existing gangway or series of gangways is replaced or altered, an increase in the length of the gangway is not required to comply with 15.2.2, unless required by 4.1.6(2).

EXCEPTION 2. The maximum rise specified in 4.8.2 shall not apply to gangways.

EXCEPTION 3. Where the total length of the gangway or series of gangways serving as part of a required accessible route is at least 80 feet (24 m), the maximum slope specified in 4.8.2 shall not apply to the gangways.

EXCEPTION 4. In facilities containing fewer than 25 boat slips and where the total length of the gangway or series of gangways serving as part of a required accessible route is at least 30 feet (9140 mm), the maximum slope specified in 4.8.2 shall not apply to the gangways.

EXCEPTION 5. Where gangways connect to transition plates, landings specified by 4.8.4 shall not be required.

EXCEPTION 6. Where gangways and transition plates connect and are required to have handrails, handrail extensions specified by 4.8.5 shall not be required. Where handrail extensions are provided on gangways or transition plates, such extensions are not required to be parallel with the ground or floor surface.

EXCEPTION 7. The cross slope of gangways, transition plates, and floating piers that are part of an accessible route shall be 1:50 maximum measured in the static position.

EXCEPTION 8. Limited-use/limited-application elevators or platform lifts complying with 4.11 shall be permitted in lieu of gangways complying with 4.3.

15.2.3* Boat Slips: Minimum Number. Where boat slips are provided, boat slips complying with 15.2.5 shall be provided in accordance with Table 15.2.3. Where the number of boat slips is not identified, each 40 feet (12 m) of boat slip edge provided along the perimeter of the pier shall be counted as one boat slip for the purpose of this section. Appendix Note

Table 15.2.3
Total Boat Slips in Facility Minimum Number of Required
Accessible Boat Slips
1 to 25 -> 1
26 to 50 -> 2
51 to 100 -> 3
101 to 150 -> 4
151 to 300 -> 5
301 to 400 -> 6
401 to 500 -> 7
501 to 600 -> 8
601 to 700 -> 9
701 to 800 -> 10
801 to 900 -> 11
901 to 1000 -> 12
1001 and over -> 12, plus 1 for each 100 or fraction thereof over 1000

15.2.3.1* Dispersion. Accessible boat slips shall be dispersed throughout the various types of slips provided. This provision does not require an increase in the minimum number of boat slips required to be accessible. Appendix Note

15.2.4* Boarding Piers at Boat Launch Ramps. Where boarding piers are provided at boat launch ramps, at least 5 percent, but not less than one of the boarding piers shall comply with 15.2.4 and shall be served by an accessible route complying with 4.3. Appendix Note

EXCEPTION 1. Accessible routes serving floating boarding piers shall be permitted to use exceptions 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, and 8 in 15.2.2.

EXCEPTION 2. Where the total length of the gangway or series of gangways serving as part of a required accessible route is at least 30 feet (9140 mm), the maximum slope specified by 4.8.2 shall not apply to the gangways.

EXCEPTION 3. Where the accessible route serving a floating boarding pier or skid pier is located within a boat launch ramp, the portion of the accessible route located within the boat launch ramp shall not be required to comply with 4.8.

15.2.4.1* Boarding Pier Clearances. The entire length of the piers shall comply with 15.2.5. Appendix Note

15.2.5* Accessible Boat Slips. Accessible boat slips shall comply with 15.2.5. Appendix Note

15.2.5.1 Clearances. Accessible boat slips shall be served by clear pier space 60 inches (1525 mm) wide minimum and at least as long as the accessible boat slips. Every 10 feet (3050 mm) maximum of linear pier edge serving the accessible boat slips shall contain at least one continuous clear opening 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum in width (see Fig. 59).

EXCEPTION 1: The width of the clear pier space shall be permitted to be 36 inches (915 mm) minimum for a length of 24 inches (610 mm) maximum, provided that multiple 36 inch (915mm) wide segments are separated by segments that are 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum clear in width and 60 inches (1525 mm) minimum clear in length. (see Fig. 60)

EXCEPTION 2: Edge protection 4 inches (100 mm) high maximum and 2 inches (51mm) deep maximum shall be permitted at the continuous clear openings. (see Fig. 61)

EXCEPTION 3*: In alterations to existing facilities, clear pier space shall be permitted to be located perpendicular to the boat slip and shall extend the width of the boat slip, where the facility has at least one boat slip complying with 15.2.5, and further compliance with 15.2.5 would result in a reduction in the number of boat slips available or result in a reduction of the widths of existing slips. Appendix Note

15.2.5.2 Cleats and Other Boat Securement Devices. Cleats and other boat securement devices shall not be required to comply with 4.27.3.

And here's the appendix to help interpret the rules ...

A15.2 Boating Facilities.

A15.2.2 Accessible Route. The following two examples apply exceptions two and three.

Example 1. Boat slips which are required to be accessible are provided at a floating pier. The vertical distance an accessible route must travel to the pier when the water is at its lowest level is six feet, although the water level only fluctuates three feet. To comply with exceptions 2 and 3, at least one design solution would provide a gangway at least 72.25 feet long which ensures the slope does not exceed 1:12.

Example 2. A gangway is provided to a floating pier which is required to be on an accessible route. The vertical distance is 10 feet between the elevation where the gangway departs the landside connection and the elevation of the pier surface at the lowest water level. Exceptions 2 and 3, which modify 4.8.2, permit the gangway to be at least 80 feet long. Another design solution would be to have two 40-foot plus continuous gangways joined together at a float, where the float (as the water level falls) will stop dropping at an elevation five feet below the landside connection.

A15.2.3 Boat Slips: Minimum Number. Accessible boat slips are not "reserved" for persons with disabilities in the same manner as accessible vehicle parking spaces. Rather, accessible boat slip use is comparable to accessible hotel rooms. The Department of Justice is responsible for addressing operational issues relating to the use of accessible facilities and elements. The Department of Justice currently advises that hotels should hold accessible rooms for persons with disabilities until all other rooms are filled. At that point, accessible rooms can be open for general use on a first come, first serve basis.

The following two examples apply to a boating facility with a single non-demarcated pier.

Example 1. A site contains a new boating facility which consists of a single 60-foot pier. Boats are only moored parallel with the pier on both sides to allow occupants to embark or disembark. Since the number of slips cannot be identified, section 15.2.3 requires each 40 feet of boat slip edge to be counted as one slip for purposes of determining the number of slips available and determines the number required to be accessible. The 120 feet of boat slip edge at the pier would equate with 3 boat slips. Table 15.2.3 would require 1 slip to be accessible and comply with 15.2.5. Section 15.2.5 (excluding the exceptions within the section) requires a clear pier space 60 inches wide minimum extending the length of the slip. In this example, because the pier is at least 40 feet long, the accessible slip must contain a clear pier space at least 40 feet long which has a minimum width of 60 inches.

Example 2. A new boating facility consisting of a single pier 25 feet long and 3 feet wide is being planned for a site. The design intends to allow boats to moor and occupants to embark and disembark on both sides, and at one end. As the number of boat slips cannot be identified, applying section 15.2.3 would translate to 53 feet of boat slip edge at the pier. This equates with two slips. Table 15.2.3 would require 1 slip to be accessible. To comply with 15.2.5 (excluding the exceptions within the section), the width of the pier must be increased to 60 inches. Neither 15.2.3 or 15.2.5 requires the pier length to be increased to 40 feet.

A15.2.3.1 Dispersion. Types of boat slips are based on the size of the boat slips; whether single berths or double berths, shallow water or deep water, transient or longer-term lease, covered or uncovered; and whether slips are equipped with features such as telephone, water, electricity and cable connections. The term "boat slip" is intended to cover any pier area where recreational boats embark or disembark, unless classified as a launch ramp boarding pier. For example, a fuel pier may contain boat slips, and this type of short term slip would be included in determining compliance with 15.2.3.1.

A15.2.4 Boarding Piers at Boat Launch Ramps. The following two examples apply to a boat launch ramp boarding pier.

Example 1. A chain of floats is provided on a launch ramp to be used as a boarding pier which is required to be accessible by 15.2.4. At high water, the entire chain is floating and a transition plate connects the first float to the surface of the launch ramp. As the water level decreases, segments of the chain end up resting on the launch ramp surface, matching the slope of the launch ramp. As water levels drop, segments function also as gangways because one end of a segment is resting on the launch ramp surface and the other end is connecting to another floating segment in the chain.

Under ADAAG 4.1.2(2), an accessible route must serve the last float because it would function as the boarding pier at the lowest water level. Under exception 3 in 15.2.4, each float is not required to comply with ADAAG 4.8, but must meet all other requirements in ADAAG 4.3, unless exempted by exception 1 in 15.2.4. In this example, because the entire chain also functions as a boarding pier, the entire chain must comply with the requirements of 15.2.5, including the 60-inch minimum clear pier width provision.

Example 2. A non-floating boarding pier supported by piles divides a launching area into two launch ramps and is required to be accessible. Under ADAAG 4.1.2(2), an accessible route must connect the boarding pier with other accessible buildings, facilities, elements, and spaces on the site. Although the boarding pier is located within a launch ramp, because the pier is not a floating pier or a skid pier, none of the exceptions in 15.2.4 apply. To comply with ADAAG 4.3, either the accessible route must run down the launch ramp or the fixed boarding pier could be relocated to the side of the two launch ramps. The second option leaves the slope of the launch ramps unchanged, because the accessible route runs outside the launch ramps.

A15.2.4.1 Boarding Pier Clearances. The guidelines do not establish a minimum length for accessible boarding piers at boat launch ramps. The accessible boarding pier would have a length which is at least equal to other boarding piers provided at the facility. If no other boarding pier is provided, the pier would have a length equal to what would have been provided if no access requirements applied. The entire length of accessible boarding piers would be required to comply with the same technical provisions that apply to accessible boat slips. For example, at a launch ramp, if a 20-foot long accessible boarding pier is provided, the entire 20 feet must comply with the pier clearance requirements in 15.2.5. Likewise, if a 60-foot long accessible boarding pier is provided, the pier clearance requirements in 15.2.5 would apply to the entire 60 feet.

A15.2.5 Accessible Boat Slips. Although the minimum width of the clear pier space is 60 inches, it is recommended that piers be wider than 60 inches to improve the safety for persons with disabilities, particularly on floating piers.

A15.2.5.1 Clearances, Exception 3. Where the conditions in exception 3 are satisfied, existing facilities are only required to have one accessible boat slip with a pier clearance which runs the length of the slip. All other accessible slips are allowed to have the required pier clearance at the head of the slip. Under this exception, at piers with perpendicular boat slips, the width of most "finger piers" will remain unchanged. However, where mooring systems for floating piers are replaced as part of pier alteration projects, an opportunity may exist for increasing accessibility. Piers may be reconfigured to allow an increase in the number of wider finger piers, and serve as accessible boat slips.

Note my bolding added to A15.2.3. Seems to me that if the slips "reserved" are of sufficient width and with proper ramps and deck material then they are compliant. Then when the docks are full, the "handicapped" slips can be used by anyone. If all the docks/slips were compliant then there would be no need for any "reserved" spots. This would actually make sense as the intent of the ADA was not to give special treatment to people but rather to allow them access to facilities that all of us use. You'd think Wolfeboro could afford a laywer or two to figure this out. So next time the docks are full you can legally, and morally, use the "reserved" slips. Please hand the above to Mr Hanson along with a pound of sand.

So to answer "what's next" .... how wide are the docks ? How big are the gaps ? How high are any obstructions (ie - btw dock and land) ?

ps - I note the use of the wording "New" as in New boating facilities must comply. That doesn't mean old ones don't have to (or shouldn't) but I don't see it in the above. There's a job for a lawyer.

wires1999 · 07-19-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

A good question and here's what I could find out ...

Thank you, thank you. well that seems to sum it up. Mr Hanson, or whomever is hassle(ing) us better stop or he himself will be up for disturbing the peace.

Taz · 07-19-2007, 05:01 PM

I think its time to write letters to the Wolfboro Town Manager and copy the selectman, the Wolfboro Police and Cheryl Killam of the Govenors Commission on Disability quoting the ADA information Mee n Mac found. Good find Mee n Mac!

secondcurve · 07-19-2007, 06:31 PM

Maybe the solution is for the town of Wolfeboro to ad TWO NEW boat slips. Better yet, maybe they can add a whole finger and designate two slips for handicap use. This would be a positive outcome in my opinion.

Islander · 07-19-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Maybe the solution is for the town of Wolfeboro to ad TWO NEW boat slips. Better yet, maybe they can add a whole finger and designate two slips for handicap use. This would be a positive outcome in my opinion.

How is that fair?

That is the same kind of "not thinking it through" attitude that started this mess.

If they add slips they should be first come first serve.

secondcurve · 07-20-2007, 07:04 AM

Islander:

Sometimes a solution to a problem is not exactly as you would like, rather it is an improvement over other solutions that are being proposed. This my friend is called a comprimise. You should try the concept sometime, it will make your life easier in the long run.

wildwoodfam · 07-20-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by secondcurve

Islander:

Sometimes a solution to a problem is not exactly as you would like, rather it is an improvement over other solutions that are being proposed. This my friend is called a comprimise. You should try the concept sometime, it will make your life easier in the long run.

The way I see it sometimes the solution to the problem is going back to the way it was before the problem! Compromises are not always an appropriate solution SC.

The problem in this case was the lack of thought in creating "handicapped" slips - the solution as I see it would not be to create MORE dedicated space, because again, as I see it - the problem is that most people here on the forum and in Wolfeboro do not agree that there should be a handicap slip because this presents an unfair advantage for docking rights - meaning, the dock itself is not designed for handicapped boaters - its just a reserved space so the handicap boater doesnt need to queue up. The solution therefore it to eliminate the docks altogether and go back to waiting their turn for a dock space.

Then - there could be discussion about designing a system of docks designed specially for handicapped boaters - they would need to be floating docks to my way of thinking because they need to rise and fall along with the boats. This needs DISCUSSION and BUDGETING, and everything else that goes into the process.

Just my two cents! And no - I dont use the handicap spaces when I go, even thought they have been empty every time we go over. I wait my turn LIKE EVERYONE should!

White Rook · 07-20-2007, 08:37 AM

If the town or surrounding communities would really think about the HP docking space from the perspective of the HP boater, perhaps the main item should be that the HP space be as close to the parking lot as possible to minimize the individuals walking distance with a cane, walker, etc. It seems like that would be a practical and low cost solution.

If / when I get over to Wolfeboro, I'd make that suggestion to the individual that you folks keep mentioning that patrols the docks. As for specially modified docks that allow a wheel chair or other similar device to enter and exit a boat, I don't know if that will be practical and within the towns operating budget. As a HP myself, shortest walking distances are a great help to minimize my spent energy.

SIKSUKR · 07-20-2007, 08:59 AM

Great job M&M!If my memory and math are correct,I would think that town docks would only require one 40ft hc slip,which could be used by anyone if the rest of the docks are full.Did I interpret that correctly?

jrc · 07-20-2007, 09:25 AM

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

Irrigation Guy · 07-20-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

While I agree that while most of us are out there for pleasure, I just don't believe these spots are gonna help any boater with special needs. As others have mentioned there are no special facilities, just the ability to cut in line.

I also believe that any boater would gladly give way to allow any of those with the special circumstances that you list above to go in front of them.

Its called common courtesy.

I also notice from time to time there are people out there that abuse these privileges when on land.

Just my .02.

Jan · 07-20-2007, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line.

First I want to make it clear that I never park in handicapped spots and have scolded people who use them improperly. This is different. People should be able to look for a solution that makes the most sense without being accused of being unsympathetic.

Handicapped spots for cars are important to allow handicapped people easier access to stores and other essential services. Handicapped boat spots do not provide easier access, only a shorter wait. Also, a handicapped car driver is frequently alone doing their errands while a boater usually has a group of people with them. Is it fair to let a whole boatload of people cut in line because one passenger has a handicap?

Wouldn't the obvious, fair and most effective solution be to provide a handicapped DROP-OFF area? Equip it with a ramp or lift where people could drop-off the handicapped person and then get in line for a spot. I don't think anyone would object to that.

Even with a ramp or lift getting a handicapped person from the boat to the dock is hazardous at best. Take a look at this video that my husband showed me. It is both funny and painful to watch. Why would you put a handicapped person in such a position?

parrothead · 07-20-2007, 12:00 PM

I haven't been to the docks in question, but instead of reserving a number of slips as handicapped how about just one. The examples given on the forum for using these slips for their intended purpose, are of able bodied boaters with handicapped passengers. I would think a better idea would be to have a single slip that is near the parking lot and has some "equipment" that would actually help a handicapped individual get in and out of a boat. This could mean a lift chair or something else that could facilitate this individual in and out of a boat easier. Once the HP is assisted out of the boat then the abled bodied captain goes back in to the line to get to a dock. Handicapped parking spaces in land based parking lots are close to the stores and usually wider than a regular space. This is to cut down on the distance walked, and lift vans, or walkers, crutches, etc.
Now the one sticking point is the if the handicapped person is driving the boat and then could not use the assistance provided and then dock the boat else where. But by the sounds of it for these individuals the current slips provide no more benefit than any other slip on the docks. And in fact ones closer to the parking lot would be preferrable. By the description these slips are easier to dock at than the ones closer to the shore, ie don't have pull between boats to get to the slips. Just my .02 as well. I don't think that a handicapped person should be detered from getting out and enjoying the lake and the different locations around lake. But it does sound like all these slips do is cut down on the time spent waiting in line with the rest of us. I am all for the ADA and what it can do, when used properly this just doesn't sound like one of those times.

parrothead · 07-20-2007, 12:03 PM

I guess it took me too long to type my last message, so I second what Jan says.

Islander · 07-20-2007, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

First, let me say that I think the handicapped spaces as they stand and especially how the town went about it, really stinks.

But I am really surprised about the general tone from some of the posters here. All this talk about giving an unfair advantage to the handicapped is a little disturbing. Is it really too hard to let a disabled veteran, who lost a leg in Iraq, go ahead of you in line. What about the 87 year old great-grandmother who can't take much sun. Or the 70 year old man who had a stroke and can't be out of his wheel chair for long periods. Or even the pregnant women, who may really need a bathroom now.

How many times have we been told that we should feel sorry for the taxes on million dollar waterfront. But I shouldn't worry about these people.

How many times have we been told, you're at the lake to have fun, what's the hurry. Your kids can't wait an extra 15-20 minutes for their ice cream while these people dock?

Do they give out handicapped placards for pregnancy and sun sensitivity? I don't think so. I have no problem allowing someone with an emergency, even a small emergency, to cut to the front of the line.

A 5 to 15 minute drop off or pick up zone is the best idea. Many town docks have them already.

wires1999 · 07-20-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

Do they give out handicapped placards for pregnancy and sun sensitivity? I don't think so. I have no problem allowing someone with an emergency, even a small emergency, to cut to the front of the line.

A 5 to 15 minute drop off or pick up zone is the best idea. Many town docks have them already.

The more I read these posts the more ridiculous it sounds. Why, why, why in the world do we need handicap spots for boats? I don't get it. Wait in line like the rest of us. Someone on the dock WILL always help you get out of your boat or help you tie up if you need it. I've been boating for 30 yrs on this lake and have always helped a fellow boater dock and have also been helped with a docking situation if I needed it. Give me a break people, this is getting out of hand. Boating IS NOT a necessity as with other places of business where I support the ADA. Come on who started this handicap dock thing. Step up and tell us the real reason, don't like to wait like the rest of us? I, we, owe you something? come on.

kjbathe · 07-20-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan

Is it fair to let a whole boatload of people cut in line because one passenger has a handicap?

Wouldn't the obvious, fair and most effective solution be to provide a handicapped DROP-OFF area?

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock. It's a fast and slippery slope to assume that all handicaps are equal, can be accommodated by the same equipment, or that folks can be dropped off at all.

I don't have a good solution here... I'm not insensitive to the handicaps of others. I have both healthy and disabled veterans in my family, some that are too proud to think they warrant any special privileges. ADA compliance and wanting to fill the gap for the all-too-common lack of common sense/courtesy are good things in my opinion. But implementation of a solution in this case that makes sense and addresses the need in a reasonable way is escaping me at the moment.

With that, I think we've all gone full circle on this one. The spots are there, there's no enforcement, the decent people will let those less fortunate pass -- as they would even if the blue spots didn't exist. And the rest of the world will, unfortunately, still be in a rush, on the phone, too important, and decrying any advantage that someone else may have over them even if said "advantage" came at the cost of a stroke, service to our country, debilitating accident beyond their control, or simply a long happy life and a failing body.

KTO · 07-20-2007, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjbathe

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock. It's a fast and slippery slope to assume that all handicaps are equal, can be accommodated by the same equipment, or that folks can be dropped off at all.

Exactly what I was saying...and I agree with you 100%.

Most boaters with common sense would let some suffering person have the nearest boat slip...I know I would.

It's just ridiculous.... Protest time?

Jan · 07-22-2007, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjbathe

This assumes that the handicapped individual can dis/embark the vessel without assistance and/or remain unassisted once on the dock.

Obviously another passenger would assist and accompany them.

KTO · 07-25-2007, 10:04 PM

I was in Wolfeboro today and coincidentally there was a handicap person getting off his boat in a wheelchair.

The thing I still don't see is how this helped him? Why couldn't he have waited in front like everything else. He certainly didn't need any instant medical attention... Not that I'm getting down on the guy for doing this, as he had every right to, but still there was no way that this helped him except to give him a free parking spot...

ApS · 07-26-2007, 04:17 AM

I qualify for a handicapped space but I can't think of any other level handicapped parking space in downtown Wolfeboro except at the docks.

Wolfeboro lost about six spaces upon the new "insider"-built condominium situated directly downtown. The condo got twelve spaces integral with their new building, but their garage spaces require tandom parking.

Huggins Hospital area has about a dozen level handicapped spaces, but when I went to Huggin's Emergency Room last month, my vehicle wouldn't have had the necessary sticker to park in one!

wildwoodfam · 07-26-2007, 06:12 AM

It would appear - by most accounts - and observations on this thread - that there is no true benefit - to having these dock spaces reserved for H boaters. There is no benefit to the handicapped person as s/he still has to figure out how to get out of the boat and up onto the dock, and then wheel her/himself down the dock, etc... The ONLY real benefit appears to be that s/he gets to dock faster than most who must wait for the docks to open up.

Its certainly an interesting conundrum!

spinker · 07-26-2007, 08:17 AM

Do you need a handicaped dock when you get on your boat???
this man is riduculous !!!

sa meredith · 07-26-2007, 08:44 AM

I have not yet had the chance to make the trip over to Wolfeboro this summer, but am I to understand that these dock spaces have in no way been modified???? That makes no sense. If they are no different than the regular spots, how can they be marked "Handicapped"? In a parking lot for automobiles, the spots are wider, and generally close to whatever building they are for. Thus making it easy for a handicapped person to go to and from the car. But if the docks are all the same, this makes no sense. Why should a boater not have to wait in line like everyone else, just because they are handicapped? And we all know that line can be long on weekends.
I think if the wait was over 15/20 minutes, and one of these spots open, I would grab it. Tell me, how would I be affecting a handicapped boater in any way????!!!

MJM · 07-26-2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oliviernh

Islander, I'm definately not Hanson (don't even know who he is). Just another islander like yourself (Rattlesnake-actually my screen name is my last name). I will get my ticket this weekend when I go to the lake and post a copy. Maybe that will clear up some questions as I am now curious myself as to exactly who issued the ticket.

I'm surprised we haven't heard from anyone else who also got a ticket at the town docks?

My curiosity continues......can you scan & post the ticket?

SIKSUKR · 07-26-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I have not yet had the chance to make the trip over to Wolfeboro this summer, but am I to understand that these dock spaces have in no way been modified???? That makes no sense. If they are no different than the regular spots, how can they be marked "Handicapped"? In a parking lot for automobiles, the spots are wider, and generally close to whatever building they are for. Thus making it easy for a handicapped person to go to and from the car. But if the docks are all the same, this makes no sense. Why should a boater not have to wait in line like everyone else, just because they are handicapped? And we all know that line can be long on weekends.
I think if the wait was over 15/20 minutes, and one of these spots open, I would grab it. Tell me, how would I be affecting a handicapped boater in any way????!!!

Based on what M&M posted,You are within your rights to use those spaces if the the rest of the docks are full.

oliviernh · 07-30-2007, 07:39 AM

Sorry for the delay on this. Here is the copy I promised to post. As you can see it is a true ticket from Wolfeboro PD.

Skip · 07-30-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oliviernh

Sorry for the delay on this. Here is the copy I promised to post. As you can see it is a true ticket from Wolfeboro PD.

Great pics!

The ticket specifically denotes that you violated Wolfeboro Town Ordinance WC 184-11. I do not have on-line access to that ordinance, but needless to say it would have to specifically address the reserved town docks in question.

My feeling, after reading comments attributed to the Police Chief, is that the particular ordinance cited only addresses properly signed handicap spaces on streets and parking lots.

The Town does reserve the right to modify or create a new Town ordinance allowing enforcement, but my suspicion is that the parking enforcement officer issuing this ticket has checked off an ordinance that does not yet apply.

Perhaps a Wolfeboro resident could stop by Town Hall and obtain a copy of WC 184-11 for us to peruse?

Thanks for posting the pictures, it answers a lot of questions while raising a few more!

oliviernh · 07-30-2007, 09:47 AM

...is the ordinance checked off. Good idea Skip!

White Rook · 05-08-2008, 05:08 PM

Hello Fellow Boaters,

Was there ever a final ruling or resolution to the handicap docking spaces at Wolfeboro? Does anyone know if there are any other handicap designated docking spaces across the lake? Have a great summer!

skprbob · 05-29-2008, 05:14 PM

From today's (5/29) Granite State News, page A4:

"The Wolfeboro Board of Selectmen will hold a Public Hearing on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 at 7:05 PM at the Town Hall Meeting Room, 86 South Main Street, Wolfeboro, NH for the purpose of hearing public comment on the proposed amendments to Chap 36, Sec 5, of the Town Code entitled 'Limitations on the use of Town docks, wharves, and ramps' as follows:

Q. No boats, as defined in RSA 279:2, shall be docked in that area of the Town Docks designated as accessible docking, unless such boat displays a windshield placard issued under RSA 261:88 OR displays the international symbol of access.

Docking spaces designated as accessible shall be marked in accordance with the provisions of RSA 265:73-a, by affixing signs to posts, docks, or other areas so as to be clearly visible to anyone approaching the area by boat.

The accessible docking area shall be utilized only if a person with a disability is being transported in or is operating a boat to or from the docking area.

Any person convicted under this section shall be fined not less than $250.00"

Needless to say, any boater who thinks this is idiotic should attend!

Orion · 05-29-2008, 06:31 PM

There is absolutely no logic to this bill......but I guess we've been all through that last year.

wildwoodfam · 05-29-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion

There is absolutely no logic to this bill......but I guess we've been all through that last year.

Not another thread on this issue!!! Everyone needs to go to the hearing - everyone from Wolfeboro that is - to say enough is enough!!

AC2717 · 05-30-2008, 07:02 AM

everyone that can shoudl show up to oppose this bill, of course it is on a Wednesday night. Only compromise would be for them to build more or longer docks, as this is so foolish, remeber folks one town starts, this the rest will follow. I have no problem with folks who are disabled having spaces on the the street and parking lots, but boating is above and beyond a recreation and all should be equal, if you can get into and out of a boat then it should not matter where you dock period. 50feet is not going to make a difference when walking or strolling or whatever around the town of Wolfboro. Preference should not be given. I would much rather give prefence to war vetrans injured or not because of what they do for us everyday.

Please do not blast me on this, we all need to think about the common sense of this one.

Mashugana · 05-30-2008, 08:38 AM

A docking area for handicapped boaters is a good idea. I see chair vans around but have not seen a chair boat. Is there a picture in photo post?

GWC... · 05-30-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashugana

A docking area for handicapped boaters is a good idea. I see chair vans around but have not seen a chair boat. Is there a picture in photo post?

How about a chair in a boat?

Perhaps Wolfebore is creating a place for showing appreciation to Vets and other wheelchair bound people?

http://wheelchairregatta.homestead.com/

There are more rewarding experiences in life than displaying a flag in a flotilla...

Orion · 05-30-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashugana

A docking area for handicapped boaters is a good idea.

Maybe, if they provided some handicap advantage, but all docks are the same and these just give handicap boaters a virtual "jump in the line" to get a dock on busy weekends.

wildwoodfam · 05-31-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion

Maybe, if they provided some handicap advantage, but all docks are the same and these just give handicap boaters a virtual "jump in the line" to get a dock on busy weekends.

This is exactly how the last "discussion" on this topic began.

Mr. Moyer · 05-31-2008, 07:56 PM

I like the suggestion from Second curve at the beginning of this discussion, surrounding the special designanted flag for Handicapped Boaters to go to the front of the line. I think this would address the need at hand. I am a virtual newbie at the big lake, only two years and have to say, normally I err on the side of politeness and caution around the town docks, but the one thing I can say is there is a definate shortage of dockspace at all of the ports on the lake. So i would hate to constatly be waiting for a dock and having one sit open for hours on end.
I know going to the mall or the movies, that there is nothing that burns my ass like having to park a mile away and walking by 50 empty handicapped spaces, so I understand everyones frustration. The same would apply to the docking situation.
That being said, to say that it is unfair though is a bit of a stretch, these individuals (or most of them with the placards) are handicapped and have a need to be closer, etc. so I think the flag would allow them to get to the space in a timely fashion and get the time they need to unload all of the gear and themselves, and still enjoy the lake. Just my personal opinion.
Add to that that I think the same rules should apply, 3 hr maximums at the docks, and I think there should be a parking meter fee for handicapped for what its worth.

MJM · 06-02-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Moyer

I like the suggestion from Second curve at the beginning of this discussion, surrounding the special designanted flag for Handicapped Boaters to go to the front of the line....... these individuals (or most of them with the placards) are handicapped and have a need to be closer, etc. .....

I have yet to understand why being handicapped merits getting a dock space FASTER. Closer? Absolutely, of course. But in terms of TIME, I just don't see it. Should cars with handicapped plates be allowed to drive in the breakdown lane when there is a big traffic backup?

GWC... · 06-02-2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJM

I have yet to understand why being handicapped merits getting a dock space FASTER. Closer? Absolutely, of course. But in terms of TIME, I just don't see it. Should cars with handicapped plates be allowed to drive in the breakdown lane when there is a big traffic backup?

The simple solution is to extend the current docks to allow for an increase in capacity, without an increase of shorefrontage usage.

Then, again, that would require some common sense to impliment such a simple solution...

06-29-2007, 08:22 AM	#5
camp guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro Posts: 1,134 Thanks: 284 Thanked 480 Times in 271 Posts	Wolfeboro Docks question The gentleman standing by the sign in the paper in this week's issue of the Granite State News has been on a campaign to get handicapped spaces all over Town. Fine, maybe, if there was a need, but when you sit and watch the general population you just do not see all that many (if any) truly handicapped people. And with respect to boating, this is an excess interpretation of the law. This particular gentleman is correct in his knowledge of the ADA, and he is connected to the upper level ADA people, but his efforts at implementation are excessive.

07-02-2007, 09:31 AM	#10
AC2717 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay Posts: 2,521 Thanks: 747 Thanked 344 Times in 257 Posts	spots I agree seaplane, just because handicapped does not mean they should not pay, they already have preferred parking, My father was impaired for very long time and had a placard for the car window. He never drove because he could not but was allowed a placard, which is in a lot of cases. It was great to always have a parking spot up close for him when needed or when he was in the car, but never understood why you did not have to pay meter, in MA if you have a placard you can park in any metered spot and not pay the meter. I am all for a handicap spot on the docks, but that does not mean I want them to move to the front of the line to get to the dock before anyone else. If they are on the lake they should wait like everyone else. It is a lot different than the streets. If the spot is open for them then yes go in front of me and take the handicapped spot, if it is not though have to wait in line for another on or until that spot is available, which ever you prefer.

07-05-2007, 01:12 PM	#17
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	I didn't know if that was just a local or national deal. __________________ SIKSUKR

07-07-2007, 09:02 PM	#22
wildwoodfam Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: North Andover, MA & summers up at the BIG lake Posts: 285 Thanks: 5 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I still dont get it! I really do not get the concept of handicapped boat docks. I get that handicapped folks need that advantage in a parking lot - or on the street. To be closer to the shops, condos, restaurants, etc... that all makes sense. BUT what I do not understand is the true purpose of a handicap boat dock? Its not set up for an advantage on proximity - it seems to me to be set up for advantage on not having to queue up for a spot? Why does the handicapped boater get to "pass go and collect 200" while the rest of us sit and wait our turns for a dock space? There seems not to be equity in that situation in Wolfeboro. Where did handicapped boaters dock in Wolfeboro before the spaces were reserved this season? I just do not get it?

07-08-2007, 11:02 AM	#26
kjbathe Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 281 Thanks: 3 Thanked 21 Times in 11 Posts	I docked in the spots... I docked in the handicapped spot yesterday around noon and was happy to see one available. The folks waiting to dock were numerous and were like vultures waiting for a bite of a new carcass. I was happy to be able to cut the whole line and avoid that nonsense. Can folks just back off a little bit when waiting for spots -- it makes it a heck of a lot easier for you to dock if you'll actually let folks OUT of the dock first. It made Christmas parking at the mall look good, but I digress... We pulled in, tied up and cleaned up the boat a bit when a gentleman approached my wife and me to note that the spots were intended for the handicapped, which we clearly are not. I still have no idea how we are supposed to identify "legitimate" handicapped boaters, but the honor system certainly doesn't do it as the three other boaters I saw use the spaces had no visible or otherwise apparent disability. That being said, about five minutes before the gentleman approached us we had helped my father-in-law off the boat. The victim of a massive stroke, he has a very visible physical impairment, walks (slowly) with a cane, and needs a lot of help off and on the boat. Short of having a wheelchair, if there's a definition of a handicapped boater, he fits it. And we were happy to be able to cut in line yesterday to dock...because we were hungry and didn't want to wait for lunch. That's really the sum total benefit of the handicapped spaces in our eyes -- they're a time saver. They're no closer to the parking lot or restaurants. They're still subject to the same wake and fluctuating water levels as the other spaces. (Note: His boating season is almost over this year because it's too hard to get in/out with the lower water levels). And if you ask me if the handicapped spots are a good idea -- as we discussed at dinner last night -- we agreed that they are not, for the very reasons I just noted. What's the other tangible benefit for the impaired? Especially when there's no established protocol or apparent enforcement for their use/misuse. This is one view from legitimate users of the handicapped spaces: We just don't get it.

06-28-2007, 08:08 AM	#1
AC2717 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay Posts: 2,521 Thanks: 747 Thanked 344 Times in 257 Posts	Hi all forum learkers , Heading over to Wolfeboro on Saturday with some guests for their first time, wanted to know if anyone ever cleared the air on the restrictions on the docks I have not been over there this year yet myself. Thank you

06-29-2007, 05:37 AM	#2
secondcurve Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,084 Thanks: 1,267 Thanked 557 Times in 286 Posts	There was a picture in the Grunter with a guy standing in front of two restricted (handicapped) docking spots. The sad thing about this is that there will be one boat there a week, if that. Otherwise they will sit empty. Given the heavy requirements on that docking facilty, it is too bad this got through. Couldn't we have lived with one spot? If one is handicapped and spent the entire day on the lake, would it hurt for them to spend another 10 minutes waiting for a spot? And aren't all the spots relatively equal in that the handicapped person will have to get into a wheel chair when exiting a boat anyway so does it really matter where the spots are located on the dock? After given this some thought, I have come out against this change. I understand the concept and intent and I'm all for helping out handicapped people; if I saw someone having trouble I'd be the first one to help or offer my spot. I just don't think Wolfeboro should have tied up this many resources for the very occasional need.

06-29-2007, 07:25 AM	#3
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	I gotta agree with secondcurve. The idea may have been good but the exectution is awful. Handicapped spots should be closest to the parking lot. It looks like the town reserved spots that are convenient to boating but terribly inconvenient to anyone that struggle with walking. I suspect that if walking was difficult, one would not mind a tight squeeze going into an "inside" spot to get that much closer to land.

06-29-2007, 07:46 AM	#4
kjbathe Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 281 Thanks: 3 Thanked 21 Times in 11 Posts	What are the requirements to use the handicapped spots? Do you need a placard, a dock-specific permit, or just some visible impairment to be eligible?

06-29-2007, 10:41 AM	#6
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	The spaces do seem to be picked for ease of docking. That was one of my favorite spots. The number of spots is always a question, many stores seem to have way more spots than they need. But it's probably better than not enough. Don't you wish we lived in a society that didn't need these spots? People with extra needs would just be waved to the front of the line.

06-30-2007, 07:04 PM	#7
secondcurve Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,084 Thanks: 1,267 Thanked 557 Times in 286 Posts	I went by the Wolfeboro town docks today and of course the two handicapped spots were open and space was very tight with boats waiting to dock. Why couldn't the state have issued special flags to handicapped boaters (I'm assuming there are more than one on the lake, but I'm not all that sure) that could be used to move them to the front of the line for docking? Too simple a solution, I guess!

07-02-2007, 09:06 AM	#9
Seaplane Pilot Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,177 Thanks: 662 Thanked 943 Times in 368 Posts	On this subject of handicap parking: I have no problem with specific parking spots on city streets being designated as handicap parking spots. What kills me is in Manchester for example, all the parking spaces downtown have parking meters, except for the handicap parking spaces. Why should the people using these spaces get free parking? Never understood this.

07-02-2007, 07:18 PM	#11
MeEscape Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Da' Bay Posts: 38 Thanks: 6 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Good thought, but very poor execution and life is all about execution, however. I actually invited 'this guy" onboard a few weeks ago and had a lengthy discussion regarding his objectives and offered him many suggestions on how to better approach his efforts. He was very appreciative and thanked me for my suggestions and left. As he was leaving (after about 30 minutes of discussions) he told me he had my bow numbers and was turning them into the NHMP. Nice guy I thought!!

07-03-2007, 05:40 AM	#12
secondcurve Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,084 Thanks: 1,267 Thanked 557 Times in 286 Posts	Somehow it doesn't surprise me that this guy would do this. The world has gone crazy with political correctness!

07-07-2007, 05:08 PM	#20
Islander Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 321 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	Going back to feed a parking meter is illegal. When a meter has a two hour limit, that means you must leave within two hours. Putting more money in may prevent a ticket, but you are breaking the law. Also any time on the meter when you park is not yours. If you are parking for an hour you must put in an hours fee not matter how much is on the meter. Last time I went to Wolfeboro I parked in the handicapped spaces. I was looking for someone to say something but nobody did.

07-07-2007, 10:52 PM	#23
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	These spots are clearly not intended to be the shortest walk. So they may be chosen as the easiest to dock at. Or they are just reserved so handicapped boaters don't have to wait. It seems like a reasonable kindness for people needing extra help. But, it should be a law or not at all. You can't have a zealot making up their own rules, it's no way to run a town. Things like this start out well but can snowball. A family member lives in senior housing, where almost all the parking spots are labeled handicapped. There have been fist fights over who was handicapped enough to get close spots. Get used to this type of thing, the baby boomers are getting older. The "Me" generation all think they are entitled to special treatment, and they'll sue to get it. Once everyone gets handicapped plates, then what do you do? Have different levels of handicapped?

07-08-2007, 10:21 AM	#25
secondcurve Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,084 Thanks: 1,267 Thanked 557 Times in 286 Posts	Before the issue of reserving handicapped boat spaces got underway, I think the state should have had a box on its registration renewal form asking if the the registrant was handicapped. If enough folks checked the box, then the need could have been estimated. If it was great (which I still doubt for obvious reasons) then the following year the state could have required a doctors note with the renewal application to determine who was handicapped. These folks could then be issued special handicapped plates or bow numbers. Even in my system there would be no need for handicapped docking spots since the special bow number would move the boater to the front of the docking line for the next acceptable available spot. RLW maybe you should try to pursue the implemenation of this system rather than hanging around the town docks looking for trouble. My guess is that most, if not all forum members, would embrace such a system as it would not waste limited docking resources while meeting the needs of those few who truly need some help.

07-08-2007, 04:13 PM	#27
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	What would be a real solution? Most of us are confused about the implementation of the current handicap spots. I wonder if the collective brain power in this group could actually come up with a dock modification that would allow people easier access to and from the boat as the water level moves 18 inches during the year. Any good ideas that would actually help. I know that my elderly parents have to time their annual visit to my island so that the water is at a reasonable height for getting in and out of the boat at both ends.

07-08-2007, 09:41 PM	#30
Islander Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 321 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	I don't think special registrations is the answer. Boats are not like cars which are essential transportation. I doubt very many handicapped own boats. More likely they catch a ride on someone else's. I have had several people on my boat that have handicapped placards. The best boating answer is a pontoon boat. You can open the side gate and just step or roll on-board. Much easier than trying to climb up and down over the gunwale.

07-09-2007, 06:55 AM	#31
AC2717 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Maynard, MA & Paugus Bay Posts: 2,521 Thanks: 747 Thanked 344 Times in 257 Posts	Boaters are Boaters! Boaters are boaters and that is it. If you are handicapped then you are, and if I am not I am not. Boating has and will always be a recreation ACTIVITY! I was reading the thread as always and noticed that someone had a handicapped Father-in-law from a massive stroke that cut the line to the dock and docked up at the handicap marked dock. WHY? that person that was impaired was a passenger on the vessel not the owner, and those docks are not even the closest to get to the shore. I do not think it is fair for others to have to wait in line, now if the person was a vetran then yes they should always have the right of way for putting their lives in danger for ours so we should return the favor. I just do not get it if you are able to get on the water in a boat then you are able to dock the boat anywhere like the rest of us and therefore wait in line like the rest of us. I think the line was "We did not want to wait for lunch," So doesn't the 15 other boats in line waiting to dock because they do not have a handicapped person on board. I am all for handicapped benefits on land, do not get me wrong, and I have expereince with it but on the water it is different esepcially when there is limited dock space to begin with and when the dock itself is not truely set up to be a handicapped dock. If they were to change the docks out there and made some handicapped friendly and made them the closest to the parking lot or stores then I can agree. The only one on land I do not understand is how come a super store like Lowe's has abput 20 handicapped spots in one row that goes halfway down the parking lot yet there are much closer spots that are not handicapped at the beginning of other rows wouldn't make sense to make the first 2 or 4 spots in every row closest to the store handicapped instead of one whole row?

07-16-2007, 08:53 PM	#33
Taz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 345 Thanks: 3 Thanked 68 Times in 46 Posts	Handicap Docking I talked to the official walking the docks in Wolfboro regarding the handicap docking. I believe he also keeps track of autos in the parking lot at the town docks(he has the tool marking the tires to keep track of how long they are parked there) There is no statute to cover handicap docking. If you dock there you can not be given a ticket. It is only a suggestion. There is nothing at that dock that makes it any easier than any other dock at the Wolfboro town docks for an individual who is physically impaired to disembark from their boat. If I am in Wolfboro and there is no other space to dock, I will dock at the area with painted blue posts if no one else wants to dock there and I am next in line. If someone is boating and they are physically impaired then they were somehow able to enter the boat where they started from and they can disembark in Wolfboro at the town dock the same way. They should wait like everyone else. The official I talked to was very angry that this dock was designated for handicap docking. He told me that over the winter without telling him the entire dock was taken for handicap docking. He protested to the authorities citing there is no statute to allow this and they relented agreed to what it is now presently. He all but outright told me to dock there if I wished. I suggest every one else do the same. What fair is fair and this is not. This is nothing more than allowing someone to cut line.

07-17-2007, 07:06 AM	#34
oliviernh Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Hampton and Rattlesnake Island Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Incorrect information Taz, unfortunately whoever gave you that information is incorrect. Anyone who has noticed the blue posts go halfway down on the outermost dock. Also the blue handicapped signs coincide with the blue posts. Two weekends ago I docked in the spot closest to shore on the outermost dock. this was after the blue posts and there were no handicapped signs going up that far on the dock. We ran to the hardware store and rite-aid and when we came back I had a nice bright orange ticket on my windshield for $250 for parking in a handicapped spot. The ticket also said if I had a handicapped tag it had to be displayed. Every boat on the outside dock had a ticket on their windshield. We were a little upset!! We pulled out and started to leave when we saw the marine patrol guy walking the docks. I turned the boat around and went back to my same parking spot (as no one had taken it yet). We proceeded to call the officer over and point out to him the blue posts only go 1/2 way down and we were clearly way past them. He said "well there is a sign right here" (at the end of the dock), however it is facing inland and you can't see it when pulling up in the boat. He explained that the whole outside of the dock was for handicapped parking and it was a serious offense and hence the ticket for $250, but he understood our argument and kindly decided to give us a warning and ripped up the ticket! But said next time we must diplay our handicapped tag if we had one. I told him I never heard of anyone getting one with thier boat. He didn't really have an answer for that. At anyrate they can and will ticket you. I have a ticket to prove it, however it is now ripped in half and "warning" is written over it in black marker.

07-17-2007, 07:37 AM	#35
kjbathe Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 281 Thanks: 3 Thanked 21 Times in 11 Posts	Must Display the Placard? This is really a mess, isn't it? Following up on my earlier post when we "legitimately" used the spaces, I also thought we should be hanging the handicapped placard. But then I realized it was going to be hard to hang the placard on the boat at the same time it was hanging in the car. Perhaps we all need handicapped license plates instead of the placard, and then we can place one of the plates on the windshield of the boat??? And the whole side of the dock is restricted even though the few spots are clearly marked with blue and individual signs that DO face the water? With that logic one could argue that the whole row of parking spaces at Wal-Mart is for handicapped use even though only some of spaces are blue and the remainder are white because there's a sign at the end of the row??? Did they run out of blue paint in Wolfeboro and we're just supposed to know the intent was to keep painting the whole side? It's clear to me that few, if any, know what the rules are for the use of these spots or how their mis/use should be enforced. I'm still seeing the only benefit as time savings for handicapped boaters. And to AC2717's point above, I don't think the time of disabled individuals is any more valuable than the rest of ours. Unless/until a coherent and enforceable policy can be developed and communicated, the spaces should be opened up for everyone to use.

07-17-2007, 09:39 AM	#37
camp guy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: formerly Winter Harbor, still Wolfeboro Posts: 1,134 Thanks: 284 Thanked 480 Times in 271 Posts	Wolfeboro Docks Question The whole situation at the Wolfeboro Town docks regarding handicapped boat parking can be summed up in very plain, simple language: The local selectman don't have the @#%%s to tell Mr Hanson to stop being such a pain in the backside. Mr Hanson is only doing this to continually prove his point. Okay, we get it. Now quit it. In all my time around the Wolfeboro docks I have NEVER seen him boating. He was upset with the boat show a few years ago because he couldn't park his car in the designated handicapped space; however, the boat show committee had made other, more generous arrangements for handicapped parking during the show, but he wanted the originally designated space. Somebody needs to tell the Emperor his new clothes are inappropriate.

07-17-2007, 10:02 AM	#38
skprbob Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 19 Mile Bay Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 90 Times in 29 Posts	marine patrol? olivernh - Yes, this is really confusing. I assume the guy you talked to about the ticket was a Wolfeboro officer of some sort, perhaps one of their traffic control people, and not a Marine Patrol officer. As a former NHMP officer, I can tell you that the Marine Patrol does not have jurisdiction over docks or docking. It's up to individual towns to enforce their own rules concerning docks. I spoke this morning to the Wolfeboro PD. The dispatcher was even uncertain about what was going on, but it's developing. The chief called me back promptly with the following useful information: Although the docks are marked, there is presently no ordinance governing the parking. An ordinance is being worked on, but until one is passed, no formal enforcement action can be taken. In other words, you cannot be cited for violation of a non-existent rule. No ordinance = no violation. You should not have received a ticket of any sort, and the chief would like to hear from anyone who does receive one so he can straighten out his enforcement. Until an ordinance is passed, the use of the handicapped dock is an "honor system" proposition. I hope this clears up at least some of the confusion. BTW - camp guy - You're absolutely right. Mr. Hanson is apparently another example of the ADA gone crazy. Like many other examples, the ADA was a perfectly good and necessary law which has been corrupted to ridiculous extremes such as this. Here we go again!

07-17-2007, 10:12 AM	#39
Skip Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Dover, NH Posts: 1,615 Thanks: 256 Thanked 514 Times in 182 Posts	City & Town ordinances/docking Skprbob is correct. New Hampshire State law empowers cities and towns within the State to regulate docking within their particular jurisdictions by city or town ordinance. The Town of Wolfeboro therefore can declare certain docks "Handicap Access Only" but must do so by passing an applicable town ordinance in compliance with their respective town charter. When & if such a town ordinance were passed, it would only be enforceable by the Town itself. The NHMP would have no jurisdiction to enforce a town ordinance.

07-17-2007, 10:56 AM	#40
oliviernh Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Hampton and Rattlesnake Island Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Enforcement officer of some type? Skprbob and Skip, I'm sure you're correct and I misspoke regarding a "marine patrol" officer. He was some type of enforcement officer but I guess I'm not sure from where. I assume Wolfeboro enforcement. As far as cited offense, it was for docking/parking in a handicapped spot. I wish I had the ticket with me (then I might post a copy here) but it is at the lake. I will look at it this weekend when I get up there and see what other information is on it. I don't want to get anyone in trouble as the officer was very nice and understanding once we pleaded our case to him. I was glad to get it taken care of there because I was definately going to fight it but of course that would have meant missed work and hassle etc.

07-17-2007, 11:30 AM	#41
skprbob Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 19 Mile Bay Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 90 Times in 29 Posts	clarify olivernh et al - My conversation with the Wolfeboro chief clearly indicated that handicapped parking for motor vehicles and handicapped docking for boats were separate issues. An ordinance regarding handicapped parking on land exists and one can be ticketed for violations. No such ordinance regarding handicapped docking exists, so you cannot be ticketed unless/until such an ordinance is passed by the Town of Wolfeboro. The chief was not intent on getting any of his officers in any trouble - his goal was to make sure that everyone on his force was aware of the difference. I'd say the officer who gave you the ticket was simply misapplying a land-based motor vehicle ordinance to the docks.

07-17-2007, 06:15 PM	#42
Taz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 345 Thanks: 3 Thanked 68 Times in 46 Posts	handicap parking Skpbob and skip are correct. I called the Town of Wolfboro and the Wolfboro police and both confirmed there is no RSA or town ordinance to enforce the handicap parking at the Wolfboro town docks. Both also confirmed that no one is ticketing anyone for parking there that does not have some one who is handicapped on their boat. THIS IS NOT BEING ENFORCED. When I enquired further on my call to the town offices of Wolfboro, in a nutshell, this an attempt to appease someone because the town hall as well as other parts of Wolfboro are not handicap accessible. The town offices also said that the Govenors Commission on disability is another source for more information on this matter. A Cheryl Killam is a contact in that office. Obviously, someone is applying pressure to the Town of Wolfboro. No other town with town docking on the lake has designated handicap parking for boats. When I pressed the point that if anything the space designated is further away than any other of the docks, the answer was, "thats what they requested" It remains to be seen who they are.

07-17-2007, 06:35 PM	#43
Taz Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 345 Thanks: 3 Thanked 68 Times in 46 Posts	placards On another note AC2717 posted that his father did not drive but received a placard anyway. Why? If you are not driving, whoever is driving can stop and drop you off at the entrance to where ever you are going, much closer than walking from a handicap spot.

07-17-2007, 07:25 PM	#44
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,404 Thanks: 719 Thanked 1,379 Times in 955 Posts	You are right, Taz, someone is applyling pressure. So much so that they (not sure if it was the feds or the state but I think it was the state) came in and checked the whole town and identified all the spots that needed to become handicapped accessible.

07-17-2007, 07:46 PM	#45
KTO Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Meredith, NH Posts: 391 Thanks: 30 Thanked 117 Times in 26 Posts	The one thing that I don't think anyone took in was: How will this help? If someone is visually impaired, why are they driving? If someone is physically impaired, what makes them deserve the spot? It's not any shorter, it's the same as the rest of the dock. If someone has a medical issue: A) Carry the medication with you B) Let him/her off at the END of the dock which is DEFINITELY always open Did I miss anything?

07-17-2007, 08:39 PM	#47
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	OK, there is no law, rule or town ordinance, and neither the Marine Patrol or the Wolfeboro PD is enforcing the law that doesn't exist. So who put the tickets on OliverNH's boat and the other boats that he witnessed with tickets? How many of those other boaters paid those tickets because they thought there was a law or couldn't afford the time to fight the ticket in court? This is a real mess.

07-17-2007, 10:31 PM	#48
Rattlesnake Guy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,254 Thanks: 423 Thanked 366 Times in 175 Posts	We all seem to agree that this solution appears to add zero advantage to the handicapped boaters except for the potential to cut in line. An advantage I would hope would not be relished. I really hope the voters will not continue this failed gesture. This family loves to spend time and dollars in the town but not having a vote in the election would have to vote with our feet and dollars. How about adding some new spaces that actually are handicap advantaged without taking the precious existing spaces out of the que. How many dollars are lost when we give up and turn away.

07-18-2007, 07:03 AM	#50
oliviernh Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Hampton and Rattlesnake Island Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Nope...not Hanson Islander, I'm definately not Hanson (don't even know who he is). Just another islander like yourself (Rattlesnake-actually my screen name is my last name). I will get my ticket this weekend when I go to the lake and post a copy. Maybe that will clear up some questions as I am now curious myself as to exactly who issued the ticket. I'm surprised we haven't heard from anyone else who also got a ticket at the town docks?