Huge Commercial Project in West Alton

[West Alton Joe]

Hi all,

Long time lurker, but first time posting. I'm too old to figure out these types of things, so my granddaughter was kind enough to help me figure out how to set up and post on this forum.

The reason for coming here is to make the property owners and residents of West Alton and adjacent areas in Gilford aware of a massive commercial development project that has been submitted to the Town of Alton. This is going to be done on a 140 acre parcel that has its road frontage on Rt. 11A. This parcel has a boundary with the Town of Gilford. The parcel's north boundary sits on top of a high hill (or small mountain) that can be seen from Lake Winnipesaukee. If you are in a boat out near Diamond Island looking to the south, you can see this hill that has 2 houses on the side of the hill. The top of this hill was cleared a few years ago. This clearing on top of the hill is part of the 140 acres that is being developed.

The plans show that they want to build a huge event center at the top of the hill, which will be visible from a lot of Lake Winnipesaukee, and especially from the south side of Diamond Island, Welch Island Rattlesnake Island, Sleepers Island and Mount Major. It will also be visible from the Ames Farm area of Gilford. From the opposite side, this will be visible from many areas in Gilford, especially from the Belknap Range and from residential properties in that general area. In addition to the event center, the plans show that there will be parking lots, an amphitheater where there will presumably be bands playing, a ring lawn with covered pavilion, a huge estate home where wedding guests will be allowed to stay, along with a possible helicopter pad.

Further to the south of the parcel, there will be more parking lots for cars and buses, a clubhouse, pickleball courts, a sledding hill and playground. Finally, on the southernmost portion of the parcel, they will be building 20 houses that will be used for short term rentals. All of this is taking place in the Rural Zoning District of Alton, and will require a lot of variances and special exceptions to be granted by the Alton Zoning and Planning Boards. I don't have any experience with these zoning and planning boards, so I don't know what the chances of this being approved are.

What I do know is that this project will have a major impact to the area. The light pollution and music coming from the amphitheater will be heard for miles around the area, especially since this is sitting on top of a hill. I assume that they will want to launch fireworks off 7 days a week during the spring, summer and fall, so who wants to listen to this all the time. Property values in the vicinity will be seriously effected, because peace and quiet will no longer be a reality.

If you are a property owner in the vicinity of this proposed development, and you don't want to see your property value diminished and your peace and quiet taken away, please consider writing to the Town of Alton Zoning and planning board and urge them to reject this project. I'm sure once it's finished, they will sell out to Marriott or some other large corporate entity and expansion will be assured. You can count on another Bank of NH Pavilion and large hotel being next on the list. This will be a very slippery slope.

It's beyond my comprehension that the Town of Alton would allow this type of development to destroy the rural, quiet charm of Alton and also destroy the values of properties in the area. But when out of staters show up with deep pockets and hungry lawyers, this is the result. Again, if you are against this type of development in a residential area, please write to the Town of Alton or attend the Zoning and Planning Board meetings to express your concerns.

There is a Facebook group called Cherry Valley Development Alton/Gilford where you can find out more information.

Thank you for listening.

WAJ

[dva]

This is not what most people would want in there back yard. That's not why most people move to NH

[Trail Goer]

Do you know what the land in question is zoned for?

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

Do you know what the land in question is zoned for?

I live in the neighborhood. It’s zoned under the “rural” category in Alton. I’m organizing an opposition to this.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by West Alton Joe

Hi all,

Long time lurker, but first time posting. I'm too old to figure out these types of things, so my granddaughter was kind enough to help me figure out how to set up and post on this forum.

The reason for coming here is to make the property owners and residents of West Alton and adjacent areas in Gilford aware of a massive commercial development project that has been submitted to the Town of Alton. This is going to be done on a 140 acre parcel that has its road frontage on Rt. 11A. This parcel has a boundary with the Town of Gilford. The parcel's north boundary sits on top of a high hill (or small mountain) that can be seen from Lake Winnipesaukee. If you are in a boat out near Diamond Island looking to the south, you can see this hill that has 2 houses on the side of the hill. The top of this hill was cleared a few years ago. This clearing on top of the hill is part of the 140 acres that is being developed.

The plans show that they want to build a huge event center at the top of the hill, which will be visible from a lot of Lake Winnipesaukee, and especially from the south side of Diamond Island, Welch Island Rattlesnake Island, Sleepers Island and Mount Major. It will also be visible from the Ames Farm area of Gilford. From the opposite side, this will be visible from many areas in Gilford, especially from the Belknap Range and from residential properties in that general area. In addition to the event center, the plans show that there will be parking lots, an amphitheater where there will presumably be bands playing, a ring lawn with covered pavilion, a huge estate home where wedding guests will be allowed to stay, along with a possible helicopter pad.

Further to the south of the parcel, there will be more parking lots for cars and buses, a clubhouse, pickleball courts, a sledding hill and playground. Finally, on the southernmost portion of the parcel, they will be building 20 houses that will be used for short term rentals. All of this is taking place in the Rural Zoning District of Alton, and will require a lot of variances and special exceptions to be granted by the Alton Zoning and Planning Boards. I don't have any experience with these zoning and planning boards, so I don't know what the chances of this being approved are.

What I do know is that this project will have a major impact to the area. The light pollution and music coming from the amphitheater will be heard for miles around the area, especially since this is sitting on top of a hill. I assume that they will want to launch fireworks off 7 days a week during the spring, summer and fall, so who wants to listen to this all the time. Property values in the vicinity will be seriously effected, because peace and quiet will no longer be a reality.

If you are a property owner in the vicinity of this proposed development, and you don't want to see your property value diminished and your peace and quiet taken away, please consider writing to the Town of Alton Zoning and planning board and urge them to reject this project. I'm sure once it's finished, they will sell out to Marriott or some other large corporate entity and expansion will be assured. You can count on another Bank of NH Pavilion and large hotel being next on the list. This will be a very slippery slope.

It's beyond my comprehension that the Town of Alton would allow this type of development to destroy the rural, quiet charm of Alton and also destroy the values of properties in the area. But when out of staters show up with deep pockets and hungry lawyers, this is the result. Again, if you are against this type of development in a residential area, please write to the Town of Alton or attend the Zoning and Planning Board meetings to express your concerns.

Thank you for listening.

WAJ

Thanks for posting this.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

I live in the neighborhood. It’s zoned under the “rural” category in Alton. I’m organizing an opposition to this.

Sorry I don't live in that town, so maybe the meaning is different, but I thought rural zoning was for agricultural use only? How can they get approval for a convention center without changing the zoning? I know people ask for zoning variances all the time but that's a big variance. Is the property pending sale based on this approval or is it the current owner that wants to build the convention center?

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by Trail Goer

Sorry I don't live in that town, so maybe the meaning is different, but I thought rural zoning was for agricultural use only? How can they get approval for a convention center without changing the zoning? I know people ask for zoning variances all the time but that's a big variance. Is the property pending sale based on this approval or is it the current owner that wants to build the convention center?

It's the current owner that wants to build this commercial development. The property sold to these people in late 2022.

Another strange twist to this is that the abutting parcel to the east of this parcel (almost 90 acres) is owned by the infamous owner of West Alton Marina.

[dippasan]

Would someone with knowledge of the parcel location/property lines be able to post a Google Earth or equivalent aerial view?

Thanks

[Broken Glass]

It will take a strong Planning Board to prevent this from happening.The Planning Board will have to come out against this change I do not envy them this wont be easy.
The vote to change the zoning is ultimately up to the voters in the town. Please hold your ground and don’t let this happen.

[DPatnaude]

Assessor map screenshot attached.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by dippasan

Would someone with knowledge of the parcel location/property lines be able to post a Google Earth or equivalent aerial view?

Thanks

Here are a couple of images showing the general location. The yellow outline is not an accurate representation of the boundary lines. It only shows the general location of this parcel. The red outline shows the actual boundary lines.

[Grant]

Originally Posted by Broken Glass

It will take a strong Planning Board to prevent this from happening.The Planning Board will have to come out against this change I do not envy them this wont be easy.
The vote to change the zoning is ultimately up to the voters in the town. Please hold your ground and don’t let this happen.

Unfortunately, the money usually wins. Hoping that the folks of Alton can prevail on this one. That would be a real blight to the region.

But, hey, "progress."

[Little Bear]

This shows the abutting 87 acre parcel owned by the West Alton Marina guy. I can only assume that this is ripe for the picking given his legal situation.

[codeman671]

I was doing some digging and noted the abutting parcel owners as well. Could be a play for sure, especially being that Brian is soon to be sentenced.

Its a bit south of us, we may be able to see it from our lower driveway depending on orientation, but its pretty far off and will be up the hillside. We won't see it from the house. Awful close to the place for sale on Anthony Ave and the homes on Hermit.

I hope that Alton stands up and fights this. Being that it was purchased by a hospitality group entity I am sure they already did plenty of work on this already.

[Grant]

Originally Posted by codeman671

... I hope that Alton stands up and fights this. Being that it was purchased by a hospitality group entity I am sure they already did plenty of work on this already.

... and no doubt have an army of highly-paid attorneys on the job.

[dva]

The meeting is this Thursday @ 6 pm Town hall

[John Mercier]

They may be just looking to do a wedding destination... and fall under agribusiness.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

They may be just looking to do a wedding destination... and fall under agribusiness.

Way more than a wedding destination. Hopefully we get a significant turnout at tomorrow's zoning board meeting. 6:00pm at Alton Town Hall.

[Trail Goer]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

They may be just looking to do a wedding destination... and fall under agribusiness.

You mean like a winery!? Oh hell, if that's their ticket to punch this development through as being agricultural, then s**t!

[John Mercier]

Actually a winery is agribusiness.

[Mr. V]

A winery?

Wrong climate for growing good grapes.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

Way more than a wedding destination. Hopefully we get a significant turnout at tomorrow's zoning board meeting. 6:00pm at Alton Town Hall.

Is their full proposal posted somewhere?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Grant

Unfortunately, the money usually wins. Hoping that the folks of Alton can prevail on this one. That would be a real blight to the region. But, hey, "progress."

When has "peace and quiet" trumped money?

[neckdweller]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Is their full proposal posted somewhere?

I'm sure it's somewhere. Looks like there was a meeting in December with the planning board - https://www.alton.nh.gov/sites/defau...12-19-2023.pdf
and this was part of the minutes:

Proposal: Site Plan and Subdivision review for a Commercial Function Facility, Restaurant, and
196 multiple residences.
197
198 Chris Solomon, representative for the property owner, stated the lot is 150 acres and they want to
199 create a corporate retreat and event center; it would be a resort facility with a main lodge, guest
200 cottages and will be privately operated. He stated the center will have 18 luxury homes and
201 cottages; the goal will be to rent the entire facility; there will be a private gated entrance and the
202 facility will offer both sleeping and gathering spaces. Mr. Solomon stated there will be an onsite
203 shuttle service. He stated the property is on a hillside with panoramic views looking to Lake
204 Winnipesaukee; there will be wooded lots and they want to subdivide the lot into 20 individual
205 parcels, which will not be individually sold and rented with the entire facility. There will be a
206 road built to Town specifications. The houses will be single family homes with bathrooms,
207 bedrooms and kitchens, ranging from 1500 to 3,000 square feet in size. There will be a fire
208 cistern on the property; there will be sprinkler systems in the homes and meeting areas. There
209 will be solar panels installed on the property to support the electrical needs of the property. There
210 will be walking trails throughout the property; there will be various parking areas on the
211 property. There will be a main club house, tennis courts and a swimming pool.

Also looks like the manager of the LLC is a Jeremy Martin. Not sure if it's the same one that is the owner/founder of Lakes Region Design Group but that may make sense. Not sure who else is involved but I'm sure it's probably known around the area. I also found it interesting the LLC had a principle address at the old Mame's location.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Mr. V

A winery?

Wrong climate for growing good grapes.

Gilmanton has a winery and vineyard. It seems to be doing OK.
Of course they only have 9 acres and about 700 vines.

But you can ferment lots of fruit into wine... achieving the right texture and taste seems to be the skill.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by neckdweller

I'm sure it's somewhere. Looks like there was a meeting in December with the planning board - https://www.alton.nh.gov/sites/defau...12-19-2023.pdf
and this was part of the minutes:


Also looks like the manager of the LLC is a Jeremy Martin. Not sure if it's the same one that is the owner/founder of Lakes Region Design Group but that may make sense. Not sure who else is involved but I'm sure it's probably known around the area. I also found it interesting the LLC had a principle address at the old Mame's location.

Building a corporate retreat vs a regular housing development with ten acre minimums frees up design possibilities.

[dva]

There was a good turn out last night at the meeting. Looks like people are very concerned. It is great to see people like Alton the way it is!

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by dva

There was a good turn out last night at the meeting. Looks like people are very concerned. It is great to see people like Alton the way it is!

The natives are awake and restless now. And yes, it’s great to see the support from all surrounding areas. Nobody wants this in their backyard.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

The natives are awake and restless now. And yes, it’s great to see the support from all surrounding areas. Nobody wants this in their backyard.

Thinking about this from a business sense, something doesn't add up. The costs to build this monstrosity would be huge and I am failing to see how it would bring in that much revenue to cover it. It makes me wonder if there is truly a different "end game" in mind that hasn't come to light yet.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Thinking about this from a business sense, something doesn't add up. The costs to build this monstrosity would be huge and I am failing to see how it would bring in that much revenue to cover it. It makes me wonder if there is truly a different "end game" in mind that hasn't come to light yet.

Spot on, Codeman. Something smells like dead fish, and it’s not coming from the lake. Hopefully Toto will pull back the curtain so we can see who the wizard really is. Classic case of smoke and mirrors to obscure the real agenda. The abutters, neighbors and residents of Alton & Gilford will have to keep the pressure on the zoning and planning boards to make sure that they make fair and appropriate decisions.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Thinking about this from a business sense, something doesn't add up. The costs to build this monstrosity would be huge and I am failing to see how it would bring in that much revenue to cover it. It makes me wonder if there is truly a different "end game" in mind that hasn't come to light yet.

I agree 100%….this one needs to be watched / stopped!

Dan

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Thinking about this from a business sense, something doesn't add up. The costs to build this monstrosity would be huge and I am failing to see how it would bring in that much revenue to cover it. It makes me wonder if there is truly a different "end game" in mind that hasn't come to light yet.

I was wondering about a loop hole.
Could they lease it to a corporation as a retreat... but the corporation sub-lease it to others?

I can sort of see what they are up to, as a regular development of the property under existing zoning concepts would not allow for as many housing units, and certainly not all the sub-categories that they are embedding.

Legacy has the same problem... too much dream for the actual land.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I was wondering about a loop hole.
Could they lease it to a corporation as a retreat... but the corporation sub-lease it to others?

I can sort of see what they are up to, as a regular development of the property under existing zoning concepts would not allow for as many housing units, and certainly not all the sub-categories that they are embedding.

Legacy has the same problem... too much dream for the actual land.

They’re trying to change the zoning to something called “flexible zoning”, which would help this project move forward. The bark has to be peeled back so we can expose the true motivation and end game of these people.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by dva

There was a good turn out last night at the meeting. Looks like people are very concerned. It is great to see people like Alton the way it is!

Was there any discussion about permitted uses in the rural zone? Compliance with zoning? Special exceptions?

Unfortunately I am out of state and could not make the meeting. My wife and I are familiar with the property having hiked to the top after it was clear cut. Expansive views of the Belknap Range and of the lake. Meaning that whatever is built up there can be seen from over a wide range.

Alan

[Mr. V]

That would be a good location for a high end housing development, and also for a casino / hotel.

A casino / hotel would arguably enhance the profitability of Gunstock as well.

But the hoops the developer must jump through: my oh my.

Interesting game afoot there on the hillside.

[John Mercier]

The plan is high end housing that will be used as a type of hotel.
Casinos in NH tend to not be highly profitable.

[Reilly]

I believe that IF Jeremy Martin is involved It will be a very tastefully done project as everything he does is very nice with attention to details

[smith point boater]

Knowing little about the proposed project (which I would be against) first brings to mind some more basic questions about that area of West Alton.

- Could Cherry Valley Road (11A) even handle the short term increase in heavy equipment traffic this project will bring and who would pay for the road repairs in the end

- Could Cherry Valley Rd handle the long term increase in vehicle traffic

- Would this project ultimately lead to never ending traffic jams

- Is Cherry Valley Rd capable of having turn lanes etc that will be needed long term to alleviate traffic problems

- Will the town (the tax payers ) be required to install traffic lights at Mt Major Highway (Rte 11) and Cherry Valley Rd to handle inflow/outflow of traffic

I just see the town and ultimately the tax payers paying the price for this project and the headaches that will come with it

Just a few thoughts

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

Was there any discussion about permitted uses in the rural zone? Compliance with zoning? Special exceptions?

Unfortunately I am out of state and could not make the meeting. My wife and I are familiar with the property having hiked to the top after it was clear cut. Expansive views of the Belknap Range and of the lake. Meaning that whatever is built up there can be seen from over a wide range.

Alan

The Zoning Board continued the meeting until March 7th. Apparently someone is trying to change the zoning to some kind of “Flexible Zoning” specifically for this project. I don’t know exactly what this is about but will research and post about it when I get more information.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by smith point boater

Knowing little about the proposed project (which I would be against) first brings to mind some more basic questions about that area of West Alton.

- Could Cherry Valley Road (11A) even handle the short term increase in heavy equipment traffic this project will bring and who would pay for the road repairs in the end

- Could Cherry Valley Rd handle the long term increase in vehicle traffic

- Would this project ultimately lead to never ending traffic jams

- Is Cherry Valley Rd capable of having turn lanes etc that will be needed long term to alleviate traffic problems

- Will the town (the tax payers ) be required to install traffic lights at Mt Major Highway (Rte 11) and Cherry Valley Rd to handle inflow/outflow of traffic

I just see the town and ultimately the tax payers paying the price for this project and the headaches that will come with it

Just a few thoughts

The proposal shouldn't change traffic more than if he just made it house lots for sale.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The proposal shouldn't change traffic more than if he just made it house lots for sale.

I disagree. It’s a corporate event facility. How are the 200, 300, 400 or 500 corporate attendees going to get to and from the facility? By helicopter? It’s going to have a major impact on traffic and the infrastructure of both Alton and Gilford.

[John Mercier]

Shuttle service.

[Little Bear]

The money behind this project is coming from the Toast IPO. One of the founders of Toast (Grimm) is the owner of the parcel, although it's been placed in an LLC. Massachusetts billionaires bringing this blight to Alton, Gilford and Lake Winnipesaukee. The expansion will never stop with so many other large vacant land parcels around this development parcel. This is another reason why this project must be snuffed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrick...h=64587ba06842

[Descant]

Perhaps Twin Farms in Barnard VT is the business model? 300 acres, 28 cottages and suites, adults only. About $2500/night I think, depending on suite or cottage. Food, fine spirits, activities included. Eat in cottage, dining room or have a catered picnic.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Descant

Perhaps Twin Farms in Barnard VT is the business model? 300 acres, 28 cottages and suites, adults only. About $2500/night I think, depending on suite or cottage. Food, fine spirits, activities included. Eat in cottage, dining room or have a catered picnic.

Sort of like bringing the resorts back.

[Little Bear]

A friend has informed me that there has been a new Facebook Group created to provide information about this project. Those of you on Facebook can search for
CHERRY VALLEY DEVELOPMENT ALTON/GILFORD.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Descant

Perhaps Twin Farms in Barnard VT is the business model? 300 acres, 28 cottages and suites, adults only. About $2500/night I think, depending on suite or cottage. Food, fine spirits, activities included. Eat in cottage, dining room or have a catered picnic.

Possibly. But it sounds more like they want to rent/lease to a single entity at a time.

[lagoon]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

The money behind this project is coming from the Toast IPO. One of the founders of Toast (Grimm) is the owner of the parcel, although it's been placed in an LLC. Massachusetts billionaires bringing this blight to Alton, Gilford and Lake Winnipesaukee. The expansion will never stop with so many other large vacant land parcels around this development parcel. This is another reason why this project must be snuffed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrick...h=64587ba06842

Yep the "big buck folks from down under" are pushing this with local help of course. It is interesting that they own a upscale lake home on Winni now, but this project is nowhere near that property. This will ruin the immediate area and make it ok to push more and more commercial projects into Alton. The noise, the lights, the traffic and the altering of zoning need to be addressed and hopefully stop this project in it's tracks. Even the expansion of West Alton Marina has been a bit of a bummer especially with the ownership now up in the air due to Brian's conviction and soon to be realized prison term.

I encourage all Alton residents to get involved and fight this effort.

[retired]

This is a major project that will affect the entire town. Any change to zoning laws to accommodate this should be voted on at town meeting. The ZBA and other town officials should not make the decision for the residents.

[John Mercier]

I think to change zoning laws you have to have a vote at town meeting.
What they may be looking for is a variance... which has a process usually involving some public input.

[lagoon]

Originally Posted by retired

This is a major project that will affect the entire town. Any change to zoning laws to accommodate this should be voted on at town meeting. The ZBA and other town officials should not make the decision for the residents.

They will not IF the local folks show up and make their feelings known. Also if they get enough "pressure" from the project owners they will cave in to the pressure. The folks who live near there and especially the abutters need to speak up and make it clear what they want.

[AltonSkier]

The one case that was before the Alton Zoning Board last night, was continued to May 2nd with no action (they were not there):

Case #Z24-10
The Lakes Hospitality Group, LLC, Jeremy Martin, Signatory
Map 16 Lot 18 & 20
Cherry Valley Road
Special Exception
Rural Zone (RU)
A Special Exception is requested from Article 300 Section 334 to permit a Commercial Function Facility in the Rural Zone.


They have three other applications/cases that were already continued to May 2nd.


Case #Z24-11
The Lakes Hospitality Group, LLC, Jeremy Martin, Signatory
Map 16 Lot 18 & 20
Cherry Valley Road
Variance
Rural Zone (RU)
A Variance is requested from Article 400 Section 452.B to permit access to two proposed lots apart from where the street frontage is claimed.
CONTINUED until May 2, 2024

Case #Z24-12
The Lakes Hospitality Group, LLC, Jeremy Martin, Signatory
Map 16 Lot 18 & 20
Cherry Valley Road
Variance
Rural Zone (RU)
A Variance is requested from Article 300 Section 319 11. to permit an unattached ADU that will be occupied by a person or persons other than the owner.
CONTINUED until May 2, 2024

Case #Z24-13
The Lakes Hospitality Group, LLC, Jeremy Martin, Signatory
Map 16 Lot 18 & 20
Cherry Valley Road
Variance
Rural Zone (RU)
A Variance is requested from Article 300, Sections 319 4. & 12., to permit a detached ADU, where it is required to be attached or within; and to permit an exterior door between the primary single-family dwelling and an ADU, where an interior door is required.
CONTINUED until May 2, 2024


This is all taken from last night's agenda posted on the town calander.

[John Mercier]

The last one is a bit weird.
I can make an interior door that isolates the two.

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by neckdweller

I'm sure it's somewhere. Looks like there was a meeting in December with the planning board - https://www.alton.nh.gov/sites/defau...12-19-2023.pdf
and this was part of the minutes:


Also looks like the manager of the LLC is a Jeremy Martin. Not sure if it's the same one that is the owner/founder of Lakes Region Design Group but that may make sense. Not sure who else is involved but I'm sure it's probably known around the area. I also found it interesting the LLC had a principle address at the old Mame's location.

Was this an "informational" meeting, meaning they came before the Planning Board just to show "This is what we have in mind for the property" kind of thing? There wasn't a formal site plan application filed and heard? (This is something quite common that some developers will do in order to get some input and feedback prior to submitting an application for site plan approval.)

[Weekend Pundit]

One thing the people of Alton should do is make sure that if/when a site plan application is submitted and heard is to attend the Planning Board meeting. That will be the time and place to air one's questions, concerns, problems, and oppositions. Make sure to bring up all the probable problems such a development will create.

If there's an amphitheater where bands will likely play, make sure there are restrictions as to when and how late music can be played. This might also include limits on volume. Any lighting will also need to be addressed.

If a venue for meetings/weddings/etc, then maybe similar restrictions.

If there are likely to be disruptions during construction, make sure they are ALL addressed. If traffic will be an issue during operation, make sure that is also addressed in the site plan, laying out which party is responsible for traffic control, which party will responsible for addressing any and all complaints, and so on.

Just stating "I don't like it and don't want it!" isn't enough for a Planning Board to deny a site application. Be specific. Do the prep work. Don't get emotional when voicing your opinion, particularly if you are opposed.

I have no doubt some of this development will spill over into Gilford at some point and there is already a group looking into this development and any possible problems it may impose on Gilford.

[John Mercier]

I think Gilford is Ground Zero.

Airport, Winnipesuakee, and Gunstock... its finding the land for a planned development.

Glidden hit the market and went under contract within hours.

[Lakeboater]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

I think Gilford is Ground Zero.

Airport, Winnipesuakee, and Gunstock... its finding the land for a planned development.

Glidden hit the market and went under contract within hours.

What or where is Glidden that went under agreement? I am familiar with Glidden Cove. Thanks

[John Mercier]

Just off from 11A Cherry Valley Road.

[Descant]

To echo Lakeboater--
Is Glidden a large parcel? Buildings, proposed subdivision? What will go there, who might be developing? How is it zoned?

[Lakeboater]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Just off from 11A Cherry Valley Road.

Meaning that the 140 acre parcel that this thread is about is named glidden? I had not heard it referred to as glidden.

[John Mercier]

The thread is a parcel in Alton.

Glidden is Glidden Road off from 11A in Gilford.
The post by Weekend was postulating that development would spill over into Gilford.

Gilford is the primary choice, but land of a development size in the area between the lake, airport, and Gunstock is hard to come by.

The Glidden Road parcel that just went on the market, and under contract almost immediately, meets the standards of what is being explored by upscale developers.

[nj2nh]

I own property on the other side of the bay, but still oppose this. I am hoping this gets postponed long enough for summer residents to weigh in. That would help with the number of people opposed to it. We may not vot, but I would like to think we still have some Say in things.

Please, though, stop painting everyone from Massachusetts as the enemy. We aren’t.

[Lakeboater]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The thread is a parcel in Alton.

Glidden is Glidden Road off from 11A in Gilford.
The post by Weekend was postulating that development would spill over into Gilford.

Gilford is the primary choice, but land of a development size in the area between the lake, airport, and Gunstock is hard to come by.

The Glidden Road parcel that just went on the market, and under contract almost immediately, meets the standards of what is being explored by upscale developers.

John, thank you for the clarification. Appreciate it!

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by nj2nh

I own property on the other side of the bay, but still oppose this. I am hoping this gets postponed long enough for summer residents to weigh in. That would help with the number of people opposed to it. We may not vot, but I would like to think we still have some Say in things.

Please, though, stop painting everyone from Massachusetts as the enemy. We aren’t.

We aren't looking at anyone as the ''enemy'' this is simply bigger money replacing the big money that came to the area years ago.

The bigger money is tied more to the airport rather than Rte 28 or I-93 as the access point. So they will tend to develop around that area.

But Gilford always attracted some very wealthy people. The GIC was around, at least informally, long before I was born or Laconia had an airport.

[Little Bear]

One important thing that residents of Alton can do to show opposition to this development is to vote on Tuesday. Please vote NO on Warrant Article # 4, which would create a new use called a “Flexible Zoning Subdivision”. I’ve been told that this zoning change idea has something to do with the proposed commercial development on Cherry Valley Road. There’s also a similar Warrant Article on the Gilford ballot, so Gilford residents should also vote NO against this Article. I heard that the same group has been pushing the zoning changes in both towns.

[gravy boat]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

One important thing that residents of Alton can do to show opposition to this development is to vote on Tuesday. Please vote NO on Warrant Article # 4, which would create a new use called a “Flexible Zoning Subdivision”. I’ve been told that this zoning change idea has something to do with the proposed commercial development on Cherry Valley Road. There’s also a similar Warrant Article on the Gilford ballot, so Gilford residents should also vote NO against this Article. I heard that the same group has been pushing the zoning changes in both towns.

We were approached by developers we later found out to be involved to some extent with the Alton project. This developer owns the former Arlberg and is going for rezoning of another property next to it. On the ballot in Gilford tomorrow is 2.1 and about flex zoning. Flex zoning will basically open the door to developers and give them more leeway.


Vote NO, Gilford, on 2.1

[TomC]

Cities and towns have an insatiable appetite for tax "revenue" (I hate that word - it is used to hide the fact that they are simply taking the money of citizens). There will always the "need" for a new Emergency Management Complex, an Activity Center, Town Office Building, or whatever. Developers create increases in property taxes... how much more would Alton get from this Cherry Valley project vs. acres of a forested hilltop? So - the default position of a town board will be to let these things go through unless there is vocal opposition to them by the citizens of the town... If folks don't want this - you had better vote, otherwise you will find that it will happen organically...

[TiltonBB]

More information in the Laconia Sun about the Arlberg proposal.

The man involved, Nick Tamposi, is also the investor who purchased Dave's Motorboat. He is involved in other local projects, in some cases behind the scene. He does good work and his projects improve the community.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0ec1958d9.html

[gravy boat]

Glidden road property - sold to a developer.
Sara Bean’s property across from Cat Path on 11A - sold to a developer out of Texas.
The Cherry Valley/Alton property - sold to a developer already seeking to buy surrounding properties for expansion.

And the The Arlberg - owned by a developer with rumored ties to the Cherry Valley project.

Tamposi may have improved communities down south but tell me - how will more housing for the wealthy improve our town and lives? I know expansion happens but it has certainly sped up.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by gravy boat

Tamposi may have improved communities down south but tell me - how will more housing for the wealthy improve our town and lives? I know expansion happens but it has certainly sped up.

Housing for the wealthy?

Generally, by the time people have achieved significant wealth they are older and beyond their child bearing years. Not always, but more often than not.

If they build a home and pay taxes their burden on the town is small and their financial contribution is larger than any services they require. They also patronize local businesses and their dollars help the local economy.

How will it improve your life? Your taxes will be lower and there will be more viable businesses for you to spend your money at.

[codeman671]

I thought the theory correlating Cherry Valley and Tamposi had already been debunked?

If Tamposi just wants an inn across from Gunstock and isn't trying to buy up the entire area I am fine with it, but who knows what his true intentions may end up being?

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Housing for the wealthy?

Generally, by the time people have achieved significant wealth they are older and beyond their child bearing years. Not always, but more often than not.

If they build a home and pay taxes their burden on the town is small and their financial contribution is larger than any services they require. They also patronize local businesses and their dollars help the local economy.

How will it improve your life? Your taxes will be lower and there will be more viable businesses for you to spend your money at.

I agree with everything you just posted except, "your taxes will be lower". That almost never happens!

[John Mercier]

If the voters (citizens) decide to spend the same amount during the budget project, then an increase in value of property other than your own, should defer taxes to that improved property.

But none of these proposals are exactly the same...
And the wealthy being marketed to are not retirees.

I have some designs out for some... and the youngest in their late 20s.
Tech entrepreneur.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Housing for the wealthy?
Generally, by the time people have achieved significant wealth they are older and beyond their child bearing years. Not always, but more often than not.

If they build a home and pay taxes their burden on the town is small and their financial contribution is larger than any services they require. They also patronize local businesses and their dollars help the local economy.

How will it improve your life? Your taxes will be lower and there will be more viable businesses for you to spend your money at.

New development adds roads that need to be plowed and maintained and need more police to patrol. More ambulance calls means more Fire/rescue people and there will be pressure for an added fire house, and more full time staffing. Let's say it costs $100K to hire somebody with training, retirement, health insurance etc, it will take a dozen houses at $8000 tax each to hire that person, And $50K to give him/her a patrol car. Same for a firefighter plus $250K for an ambulance and how much for an added station?
Every time I hear "fallen and needs help" on the scanner, it means an ambulance and an engine both roll as they need four people, and a patrol car goes too. Maybe two if it's a busy area and needs traffic control.
Right, less school burden, but there is not much profit in taking care of old people unless you run a retirement community.

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The thread is a parcel in Alton.

Glidden is Glidden Road off from 11A in Gilford.
The post by Weekend was postulating that development would spill over into Gilford.

Gilford is the primary choice, but land of a development size in the area between the lake, airport, and Gunstock is hard to come by.

The Glidden Road parcel that just went on the market, and under contract almost immediately, meets the standards of what is being explored by upscale developers.

Is this the subdivision at Stone Brook Farm at the end of Glidden Road? Were all the lots in the subdivision sold to the same party or is it a different parcel that is not part of the subdivision?

The owners went through a lengthy process to get the subdivision on both sides of Glidden Road approved. (The subdivision backs right up to the Alton town line.)

I admit to being confused about which parcel on Glidden being talked about. Can I get some clarification?

If all of the lots were sold and the buyer wants to change things they'll either need to do some lot merges or lot line adjustments, or "undo" the subdivision entirely, all of which will require them to come before the Gilford Planning Board for approval.

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

More information in the Laconia Sun about the Arlberg proposal.

The man involved, Nick Tamposi, is also the investor who purchased Dave's Motorboat. He is involved in other local projects, in some cases behind the scene. He does good work and his projects improve the community.

https://www.laconiadailysun.com/news...0ec1958d9.html

Are you sure it was Nick Tamposi who bought Dave's? I thought it was Brad and Carolyn Champlain who bought it and are renaming it Champlain Marine? Or is Nick an investor?

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Weekend Pundit

Are you sure it was Nick Tamposi who bought Dave's? I thought it was Brad and Carolyn Champlain who bought it and are renaming it Champlain Marine? Or is Nick an investor?

There is a sign there that says Champlain Marine...

Dan

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

There is a sign there that says Champlain Marine...

Dan

Yes;

Coming soon
Champlain Marine

In hope that Dave did well.


Alan

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Weekend Pundit

Is this the subdivision at Stone Brook Farm at the end of Glidden Road? Were all the lots in the subdivision sold to the same party or is it a different parcel that is not part of the subdivision?

The owners went through a lengthy process to get the subdivision on both sides of Glidden Road approved. (The subdivision backs right up to the Alton town line.)

I admit to being confused about which parcel on Glidden being talked about. Can I get some clarification?

If all of the lots were sold and the buyer wants to change things they'll either need to do some lot merges or lot line adjustments, or "undo" the subdivision entirely, all of which will require them to come before the Gilford Planning Board for approval.

I think it is. Just under 22 acres. I watch the lots that fit the profile of the larger home builders. As the lake is being built out, quietly a new customer has been emerging. They seem to be focused on the airport - guessing they can fly out easier when they need to rather than use Manchester - and throughout the area have been focused on 10+ acre lots. I think they may have discovered current use and better understand it; but there are only so many in the area. Merging lots to form one that is 10+ acres may come later if the demand holds.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

Yes;

Coming soon
Champlain Marine

In hope that Dave did well.


Alan

My understanding is that it was on the market for $2.5m, but closed at $1.5m. I get a weekly update email from a commercial broker on various closings around the state. It’s quite informative. Here is the excerpt from the report that week:

“Dave's Motorboat Shoppe at 221 Intervale Road in Gilford has been sold to a Laconia-based LLC for $1.5 million.”

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Weekend Pundit

Are you sure it was Nick Tamposi who bought Dave's? I thought it was Brad and Carolyn Champlain who bought it and are renaming it Champlain Marine? Or is Nick an investor?

Yes, Nick Tamposi bought it. The Champlain's are leasing it. Nick is also an investor in other area businesses but chooses to remain in the background.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by Descant

New development adds roads that need to be plowed and maintained and need more police to patrol. More ambulance calls means more Fire/rescue people and there will be pressure for an added fire house, and more full time staffing. Let's say it costs $100K to hire somebody with training, retirement, health insurance etc, it will take a dozen houses at $8000 tax each to hire that person, And $50K to give him/her a patrol car. Same for a firefighter plus $250K for an ambulance and how much for an added station?
Every time I hear "fallen and needs help" on the scanner, it means an ambulance and an engine both roll as they need four people, and a patrol car goes too. Maybe two if it's a busy area and needs traffic control.
Right, less school burden, but there is not much profit in taking care of old people unless you run a retirement community.

You make good points but the vast majority of the budgets are for the schools and that is something that older people do not use.

I am a senior and pay over $20,000 per year in real estate taxes. Other than snow plowing I use very little of the town services. I have owned the current home for over 20 years have never needed the police or fire department, but it is nice to know they are there.

I spend winters in Florida so there is not much chance I will need those services, or any town services, for 6 months of the year. In my opinion the town is making a profit on me.

[Descant]

Tilton BB--Understood. Property taxes are the biggest expense in my (retirement) budget too. $10K to Gilford for an island camp with little or no police, fire, school, roads etc. Five months a year access. I can't moor overnight in Glendale, so I have to have a mainland slip, $1500 taxes, but for club dues I get some level of private security. The roads I use are state roads so NH maintains those, not Gilford.

However, we need schools to bring up a new generation who will take care of us oldsters, staff the PD and FD, hospitals, sell us retail goods, etc. If the town can't make a little profit off of us the younger generation will move and set us adrift. We are luckier than those who really can't pay their taxes.

[John Mercier]

The tax equation is really not relevant.

[The Real BigGuy]

I’d like to see NH do something like MA’s “Circuit Breaker”. It would be harder because there is no state income tax to credit but, they need a way to help seniors out.

For those who don’t know, circuit breaker is a credit that is calculated based on your property taxes, income, and assessed value of your home and is a credit you get regardless if you pay income taxes. If you don’t pay taxes you get a refund check anyway. It can be as high as 3,000+ (can’t remember the actual amount).


Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app

[John Mercier]

They have senior discounts against property taxes.
It transfers the cost of services onto the younger generation making their housing more expensive... one of the reasons we have a labor shortage with skyrocketing prices.

[Little Bear]

The "Flex Zoning" Warrant Article in Alton failed 495 to 403. This is a small but sweet victory, and the residents of Alton have made their voices heard. Thank you to all that voted against this zoning change!

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

They have senior discounts against property taxes.
It transfers the cost of services onto the younger generation making their housing more expensive... one of the reasons we have a labor shortage with skyrocketing prices.

You have to be at poverty level income, in most towns, to get those discounts.

[gravy boat]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

Housing for the wealthy?

Generally, by the time people have achieved significant wealth they are older and beyond their child bearing years. Not always, but more often than not.

If they build a home and pay taxes their burden on the town is small and their financial contribution is larger than any services they require. They also patronize local businesses and their dollars help the local economy.

How will it improve your life? Your taxes will be lower and there will be more viable businesses for you to spend your money at.

Having owned/lived in the same house in Gilford since mid 1990s I am still waiting for my tax bill to decrease.

[TiltonBB]

Originally Posted by gravy boat

Having owned/lived in the same house in Gilford since mid 1990s I am still waiting for my tax bill to decrease.

I said taxes will be lower, not lowered. If you took the wealthy with expensive homes off the tax rolls your taxes would be higher than they are now.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Biggd

You have to be at poverty level income, in most towns, to get those discounts.

Correct.
They aren't going to shift taxes from a rich person to poor person.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by TiltonBB

I said taxes will be lower, not lowered. If you took the wealthy with expensive homes off the tax rolls your taxes would be higher than they are now.

By more than most can estimate...

[Winilyme]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

The "Flex Zoning" Warrant Article in Alton failed 495 to 403. This is a small but sweet victory, and the residents of Alton have made their voices heard. Thank you to all that voted against this zoning change!

Still, that's a relatively close vote. Is this going to be one of those things that comes up year after year until either the proponents or opposition wear out? Moultonborough rec complex for example.

[John Mercier]

I would guess being private development... probably not.
It is easier just to reconfigure the property in a manner that fits in with current zoning regulation and get under way.

Smart capital doesn't like to rest.

[lagoon]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

The "Flex Zoning" Warrant Article in Alton failed 495 to 403. This is a small but sweet victory, and the residents of Alton have made their voices heard. Thank you to all that voted against this zoning change!

So does this vote end the viability of the Cherry Valley project? I am sure the owners will continue to push this forward somehow.

I found some of the other warrants in the ballot of interest as well but the majority of the votes involved the zoning and that tells you something right there.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by lagoon

So does this vote end the viability of the Cherry Valley project? I am sure the owners will continue to push this forward somehow.

I found some of the other warrants in the ballot of interest as well but the majority of the votes involved the zoning and that tells you something right there.

The flexible zoning probably had no relation to this project. Flex zoning houses would have been limited to 1,200 sq ft with a garage no larger than 576 sq ft. More like "workforce housing" than luxury housing. The flex zoning was like cluster development by another name.

Alan

[Weekend Pundit]

I see that Stone Brook Hills will be before the Gilford Planning Board this Monday (meeting starts at 7pm) dealing with a subdivision off of Cherry Valley Road, said subdivision consisting of a 27.9 acre lot being subdivided into 4 lots - one lot of 5 acres, the second of 6 acres, the third of 8.2 acres, and the fourth lot 8.7 acres in size.

Stone Brook Hills also owns a lot of property on Glidden Road, with one subdivision on either side of Glidden Road, of which some of those lots have a lot line along the Gilford/Alton line.

The new subdivision butts up against the Gilford/Alton line as well, located just north of the existing Glidden Road subdivision.

Might this be the the parcel mentioned above?

I also know that there is another parcel south of the Glidden Road subdivision that might also meet the description. It is also owned by Stone Brook Hills.

[John Mercier]

The Glidden Rd parcel that I posted of is one of them.
But the Cherry Valley parcel is another.

The division of the lot into those smaller parcels will actually make them too small to gather the interest of wealthy homeowners.

High end compounds can be made reasonably on two acres... so the desire for 10 or more is actually a focus on the current use taxing principle. The larger lot provides for more privacy, while allowing all land that is not put toward added development into a reduced taxation state.

I am guessing they will market these to buyers of a more modest means.

[Weekend Pundit]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The Glidden Rd parcel that I posted of is one of them.
But the Cherry Valley parcel is another.

The division of the lot into those smaller parcels will actually make them too small to gather the interest of wealthy homeowners.

High end compounds can be made reasonably on two acres... so the desire for 10 or more is actually a focus on the current use taxing principle. The larger lot provides for more privacy, while allowing all land that is not put toward added development into a reduced taxation state.

I am guessing they will market these to buyers of a more modest means.

The two existing Glidden Road subdivisions have lot sizes running from 5 acres to 12 acres. Because those lots include a considerable amount of wetlands, there is between 1 and 2 acres of buildable area on those lots.

[John Mercier]

The ones that I have spoken to that want these large lots are not thinking of developing the land more than a rather small footprint.
It is more about the privacy of not having neighbors right next to them, and not being on the lake were the public and come right up near the house.

The appeal of lower taxes once your holding is large enough to meet the passive current use requirement is a major draw over the 5-10 acre parcel that when built on will not.