Go Back   Winnipesaukee Forum > Winnipesaukee Forums > Boating
Home Forums Gallery Webcams Blogs YouTube Channel Classifieds Calendar Register FAQDonate Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-16-2019, 06:49 PM   #1
RUGMAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: weirs beach,
Posts: 281
Thanks: 37
Thanked 39 Times in 32 Posts
Default self driving boats

Sunday was a beautiful day on the lake, my wife and I took a nice long trip over to Alton Bay, as I was cruising along enjoying the view, I started to think, would there ever be a day when there will be self driving boats, with all the hype with self driving autos, and how would they navigate the witches without a lighthouse ??
RUGMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2019, 07:42 PM   #2
DesertDweller
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV and Moultonborough, NH
Posts: 361
Thanks: 24
Thanked 84 Times in 70 Posts
Default

Totally self driving from leaving the dock to your destination is probably a ways off, but the reality is autopilot has been around for a while and with all of the technology out with GPS, radar, AIS, etc., we are already there in a lot of ways.
DesertDweller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2019, 08:11 PM   #3
garysanfran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco/Meredith
Posts: 1,489
Thanks: 602
Thanked 629 Times in 320 Posts
Default Probably better...

Than some of the "captains" out there on the average summer weekend. I saw a lot of strange stuff this summer.

Lot of big boats with small brained helmsman...

Enjoying post-Labor Day!
__________________
Gary
~~~~_/) ~~~
~~~~~~~~
garysanfran is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to garysanfran For This Useful Post:
ApS (09-17-2019), Hillcountry (09-16-2019)
Old 09-16-2019, 09:52 PM   #4
Descant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Merrimack and Welch Island
Posts: 4,004
Thanks: 1,204
Thanked 1,498 Times in 975 Posts
Default Big boat?

I'm not sure what a big boat is. In the 50's my family owned a 30' cruiser. A big boat for the day. Now, a 25' (common) deep vee will throw a bigger wake, never mind what a 20' wake boat will do. Categorizing is usually not a fair statement.
You want "self-driving"? Get rid of your ego and let your wife, or other passenger, take the helm. This macho thing that the man has to drive is just plain ridiculous. I hope when you have a heart attack, your wife or other passenger, can drive to the nearest dock and call for help on the VHF. If that isn't the case on your boat, I suggest you are not a qualified captain. Safety of crew and passengers first, Captain goes down with the ship.
Descant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2019, 10:34 PM   #5
8gv
Senior Member
 
8gv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 61
Thanked 700 Times in 455 Posts
Default

It will never happen.

After one weekend day on the job the computer would resign.
8gv is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 09-17-2019, 05:20 AM   #6
iw8surf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 191
Thanks: 12
Thanked 94 Times in 55 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8gv View Post
It will never happen.

After one weekend day on the job the computer would resign.
We'd all just complain about its driving skills anyways...
iw8surf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2019, 07:08 AM   #7
XCR-700
Senior Member
 
XCR-700's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: MA
Posts: 1,333
Thanks: 744
Thanked 533 Times in 310 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iw8surf View Post
We'd all just complain about its driving skills anyways...
Nope, it would just ruin the lake, without anything watch and laugh at or shake our heads at while at the sandbar, it would just be so boring no one would go anymore.

Then you would just have a bunch of self-driving boats full of robots riding around the lake and clogging up the sandbars and we would be paying giant bills for it all as our self-driving boats and fun robots will be like our cable tv with its 1000 channels we never actually watch,,,

Time to bring back analog boating, no bow thrusters with joysticks, no GPS, no drive by wire, just good old fashion clouds of 2-cycle oil, clothesline steering with all the pulleys, water skiing on plank skis behind an old Glastron with back to back "jumpseats"

XCR-700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2019, 08:20 AM   #8
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,937
Thanks: 532
Thanked 568 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Self-driving boats are a lot closer than self-driving cars (self-driving cars are still a LONG ways off).

An autopilot and programmed course can get you most of the way to "self driving boat" pretty easily. Radar-based collision avoidance (or warning) is also available.
__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2019, 11:58 AM   #9
iw8surf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 191
Thanks: 12
Thanked 94 Times in 55 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
Self-driving boats are a lot closer than self-driving cars (self-driving cars are still a LONG ways off).

An autopilot and programmed course can get you most of the way to "self driving boat" pretty easily. Radar-based collision avoidance (or warning) is also available.
How? Do Tesla's not auto pilot them selves already and utilize camera systems to avoid collisions?
iw8surf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2019, 12:39 PM   #10
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,937
Thanks: 532
Thanked 568 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iw8surf View Post
How? Do Tesla's not auto pilot them selves already and utilize camera systems to avoid collisions?
In very ideal circumstances, yes. But surely you've heard of Tesla drivers that were killed while operating under autopilot mode? Or the Uber test car that struck and killed a pedestrian?

The self-driving cars are mostly OK today at dealing with what I would call "normal" conditions - well marked roads and signs, no adverse weather conditions, minimal amount of random incursions into their lane by pedestrians/animals/etc.

BTW, I've been working with AI and video analytics applications using deep learning for more than a decade, including self-driving vehicle applications. Not only is the "learning" part not there yet, the various sensors used (lidar, optical or thermal imaging, short-range radar, etc.) all have enough short comings on their own that even if the software was perfect, the input data is far from reliable from the perspective of creating a truly hands-free self-driving car.

Where are at the stage of highly assisted driving. That is unlikely to advance significantly in capabilities in the next decade. What we will more likely see is the current advanced technology seen in Tesla or Mercedes vehicles working its way down to average consumer vehicles.
__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2019, 01:39 PM   #11
fatlazyless
Senior Member
 
fatlazyless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,506
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 291
Thanked 950 Times in 692 Posts
Default

In 1933, a 37'10" sailing yacht w/ 7-feet draft, the Winnibelle II crossed the Atlantic from France to New York using an autopilot sailing system while sailed by one lone sailor.

You just set it, fo-get it, and go below to catch some sleep or whatever ...... if it worked good back in 1933 ..... then, it should work good in 2019 on Lake Winnipesaukee ...... the Winnibelle II in 1933!
__________________
... down and out, liv'n that Walmart side of the lake!
fatlazyless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 07:08 AM   #12
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,974
Thanks: 246
Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts
Default

My boat came with auto-pilot and I thought it might be nice on occasion, until I started using it. WOW, it is awesome. I only use it to hold a heading (not to follow a route), but it dramatically improves the boating experience and reduces fatigue on long passages. I hardly touch my wheel at all now and use auto-pilot to steer 98% of the time. When I was transiting the Erie Canal earlier this year, I found it incredibly useful to maintain a perfectly straight course on the long straight sections of the canal. I also got very good at steering with incremental heading degree changes on the auto-pilot push buttons when I went through turns. I don't think I'd ever have a boat without it now.
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 12:50 PM   #13
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,937
Thanks: 532
Thanked 568 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
My boat came with auto-pilot and I thought it might be nice on occasion, until I started using it. WOW, it is awesome. I only use it to hold a heading (not to follow a route), but it dramatically improves the boating experience and reduces fatigue on long passages. I hardly touch my wheel at all now and use auto-pilot to steer 98% of the time. When I was transiting the Erie Canal earlier this year, I found it incredibly useful to maintain a perfectly straight course on the long straight sections of the canal. I also got very good at steering with incremental heading degree changes on the auto-pilot push buttons when I went through turns. I don't think I'd ever have a boat without it now.
I am in the process of installing an auto pilot, for most of the same reasons you describe. It's less for pure auto-routing, and more for just basic course keeping and less driving fatigue on longer trips.
__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 05:16 PM   #14
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,974
Thanks: 246
Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
I am in the process of installing an auto pilot, for most of the same reasons you describe. It's less for pure auto-routing, and more for just basic course keeping and less driving fatigue on longer trips.
What kind of boat?
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2019, 07:06 PM   #15
ApS
Senior Member
 
ApS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro
Posts: 5,781
Thanks: 2,080
Thanked 735 Times in 530 Posts
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
I am in the process of installing an auto pilot, for most of the same reasons you describe. It's less for pure auto-routing, and more for just basic course keeping and less driving fatigue on longer trips.
You're using this on a lake?
__________________
Every MP who enters Winter Harbor will pass by my porch of 67 years...
ApS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2019, 04:12 AM   #16
thinkxingu
Senior Member
 
thinkxingu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 5,939
Thanks: 1,152
Thanked 1,959 Times in 1,210 Posts
Default

I'm intrigued by auto-pilot on a consumer level boat. How does it adjust for chop? Obstacles? Or does it just adjust steering and the driver needs to be alert and adjust for those things? If the latter, I think I might become complacent from the break and lose track...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
thinkxingu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2019, 06:12 AM   #17
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,974
Thanks: 246
Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu View Post
I'm intrigued by auto-pilot on a consumer level boat. How does it adjust for chop? Obstacles? Or does it just adjust steering and the driver needs to be alert and adjust for those things? If the latter, I think I might become complacent from the break and lose track...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app
It has to be connected to a flux gate heading compass for a heading, and if you want to follow a route, a GPS too. If the boat gets off course or off heading, it applies opposite rudder to compensate. Mine supposedly has a self-learning algorithm that adjusts the gain of the adjustments based on the reaction time of the boat and it apparently does this all the time so that in rougher water, it will make more aggressive corrections. Following seas and quartering seas seem to challenge it more than head seas or beam seas, but it does a better job of holding a course than I can do.

What I have found is that I can concentrate more on keeping watch as I am not making constant course corrections AND I don't get nearly as fatigued as I used to get on long passages. I think it has made me safer. This year, I did double digit five-hour to ten-hour passages (50 to 120 nautical miles each) on my "new" boat and that's something I would have never done in my old boat. That said, I routinely covered those distances in my old boat, but at three times the speed, so 1/3 the time and a lot less fatigue.

I'm not sure I'd bother installing auto-pilot on a Winni boat unless I was using it to cross the length of the lake routinely at <11 knots.
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post:
thinkxingu (09-19-2019)
Old 09-19-2019, 07:11 AM   #18
TiltonBB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Gilford, NH and Florida
Posts: 2,881
Thanks: 637
Thanked 2,147 Times in 894 Posts
Default

Many years ago, with a group of friends, we rented a 40 foot trawler style boat with a 15 foot beam. The downside was it had a single 120 HP diesel, no thrusters, and top speed was about 6 knots. It was a joy to dock! The upside was the autopilot. It held the course well and I am sure the units of today are a lot better.

On a smooth clear July day we left Hyannis for Nantucket and knew it would be about 4 hours of slow boating. Once we set the autopilot we were all in the back of the boat playing cards. We only had to look out every 1/2 hour or so, see that there was nothing in our area, or headed our way, for at least five miles (or as far as we could see) and go back to the game. It worked very well, even with the older technology.
TiltonBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2019, 07:38 AM   #19
ishoot308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gilford, NH / Welch Island
Posts: 5,907
Thanks: 2,279
Thanked 4,924 Times in 1,906 Posts
Default Less Fuel??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
This year, I did double digit five-hour to ten-hour passages (50 to 120 nautical miles each) on my "new" boat and that's something I would have never done in my old boat. That said, I routinely covered those distances in my old boat, but at three times the speed, so 1/3 the time and a lot less fatigue.
Probably a lot less fuel also Dave??...

Sounds like you having a blast!!

Dan
__________________
It's Always Sunny On Welch Island!!
ishoot308 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2019, 08:19 AM   #20
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,937
Thanks: 532
Thanked 568 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
What kind of boat?
Silverton 330 Sport Bridge.
__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2019, 10:10 AM   #21
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,974
Thanks: 246
Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ishoot308 View Post
Probably a lot less fuel also Dave??...

Sounds like you having a blast!!

Dan
Not less fuel, about the same, actually, but only because I occasionally get on plane to load the diesels and blow out the soot, which is recommended by Caterpillar. The boat has a 1200 mile range so fill ups are few and far between, but they are shockingly expensive when they happen. Our first two fill ups added up to more than our first boat cost...

We went from a 6000 lb boat to a 32,000 lb boat, but at hull speed (8.5 knots) the bigger boat is pretty thrifty and gets about 2.8 nautical miles per gallon pretty much regardless of load or sea state. The smaller boat got 2.6ish statute miles per gallon at 32ish MPH, but that varied wildly depending on sea state and load.

We are having a fantastic time. It's so cool to see whales/dolphins/seals/sunfish all the time (like almost every trip out) and the virtually unlimited ports of call make for interesting boating. I miss the warm water for swimming and I am tired of dodging lobster traps all the time though.
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post:
Descant (09-23-2019), ishoot308 (09-19-2019)
Old 09-19-2019, 11:28 AM   #22
brk-lnt
Senior Member
 
brk-lnt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Down Shores
Posts: 1,937
Thanks: 532
Thanked 568 Times in 334 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
I miss the warm water for swimming and I am tired of dodging lobster traps all the time though.
You're not far enough south yet. GOM is about 88 right now
__________________
[insert witty phrase here]
brk-lnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2019, 08:46 PM   #23
CooperS7777
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 69
Thanks: 103
Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
It has to be connected to a flux gate heading compass for a heading, and if you want to follow a route, a GPS too. If the boat gets off course or off heading, it applies opposite rudder to compensate.
To expand on this; course and heading are two very different things, and they are very easy for many folks to confuse. Heading is the direction your vessel (bow) is facing, and course is the direction your vessel is moving. Obviously the dynamics are very different in the water (wind, current, sea state etc.) and the direction your vessel is facing is not always the direction its moving.

Autopilot without a GPS input (gyro only) is really a misnomer and not autopilot at all, it is simply auto heading and maintains only the direction which the vessel is facing, not a course. In my opinion, for most recreational boaters, auto heading is a waste of money and a highly risky tool. If you are considering a similar system, spend the money and get a true autopilot system with both gyro and GPS (or even better, multiple GPS) input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brk-lnt View Post
You're not far enough south yet. GOM is about 88 right now
Even ~150 NM offshore

Last edited by CooperS7777; 09-19-2019 at 11:36 PM.
CooperS7777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2019, 05:36 AM   #24
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Dave R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,974
Thanks: 246
Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CooperS7777 View Post
In my opinion, for most recreational boaters, auto heading is a waste of money and a highly risky tool. If you are considering a similar system, spend the money and get a true autopilot system with both gyro and GPS (or even better, multiple GPS) input.
I concur with your definitions, but disagree on your opinion to not use an autopilot to hold a heading only. It works great and when combined with regular navigation is not risky at all. Having to modify a heading to maintain a course gives one a greater understanding of what's actually happening with currents, tides, winds etc. It also keeps the mariner engaged with the process of navigation and piloting.

On Lake Erie, Long Island Sound and Buzzards Bay, I could set a heading for a destination 30-80 miles away and never touch the auto-pilot the whole way there. On the NH coast, if I set a heading for a port 10 miles away (like Islaes of Shoals from Hampton River), I'll probably makes at least 5 heading adjustments on the way there, excluding adjustments for lobster traps (I generally just adjust 10 degrees one way and 10 degrees the other way a few seconds later to avoid them). The currents generated by the 8-11 foot tides we regularly see are really strong, even miles out.
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave R For This Useful Post:
CooperS7777 (09-20-2019)
Old 09-20-2019, 05:53 AM   #25
CooperS7777
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 69
Thanks: 103
Thanked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave R View Post
It works great and when combined with regular navigation is not risky at all. Having to modify a heading to maintain a course gives one a greater understanding of what's actually happening with currents, tides, winds etc. It also keeps the mariner engaged with the process of navigation and piloting.
Absolutely true, IF you have someone who fully understands the system and what it is and is not capable of doing, as well someone who is attentive to their environment. Unfortunately I've see it misused and or an over reliance on the technology, both in recreational boaters and in a professional environment.

Much like the technology in mentioned above in Tesla's cars; amazing if used responsibly.
CooperS7777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2019, 10:13 AM   #26
MeEscape
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Da' Bay
Posts: 38
Thanks: 6
Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts
Default

I have been using my auto pilot for over 10 years on Winni and a few ocean trips. As mentioned, it greatly reduces the boring constant corrections needed on an i/o driven boat. It goes where I tell it to go, either by a gps route or an individual heading. I've been in some very windy and strong currents and it will always correct to the course given.

Of course, I still have to make certain it is being told the CORRECT place to go. Either because I screwed up or something else has changed, like another boat wanting to go the same place.
MeEscape is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

This page was generated in 0.23858 seconds