The Laconia Burger King Property

Airedale1 · 03-22-2010, 03:04 PM

A very nice piece of property. What would you like to see there? I would be happy as a clam if they built a Panera there. I just love their soup and sandwiches, especially the Smokehouse Turkey Panini and their Cream of Chicken & Wild Rice soup.

I find myself driving all the way down to Concord at least once a week for lunch there. I wish there was one here in the Lakes Region. Although, maybe it being far away isn't too bad, because their bakery stuff is way too tempting for me.

robmac · 03-22-2010, 04:34 PM

Too bad but I think the owners have priced themselves out of the market to be able to sell or lease the properties. ( there are two involved )

jrc · 03-22-2010, 04:48 PM

Is the marina plan dead. Seems like a marina will yield larger and quicker cash than a restaurant. It still amazes me that all that water front is still vacant.

VitaBene · 03-23-2010, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Is the marina plan dead. Seems like a marina will yield larger and quicker cash than a restaurant. It still amazes me that all that water front is still vacant.

I can't imagine how being on the waterfront would pay off for a restaurant in that location.

Marina perhaps but there are a lot of slips for rent or sale out there. And with the permitting process...

Airedale1 · 03-23-2010, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

I can't imagine how being on the waterfront would pay off for a restaurant in that location. Marina perhaps but there are a lot of slips for rent or sale out there. And with the permitting process...

Had you ever been to the Laconia Burger King? It had it's own dock with slips for about two dozen boats, tables with umbrellas and it's own sandy beach with plenty of parking on both sides of the restaurant.

In the Spring, Summer and Fall, boaters would flock and dock there and grab a quick lunch with their friends before before heading back out for more fun on the lake. Families would drive there and grab a lunch and sit on the beach. In the winter snowmobilers and cross country skiers would also stop there.

In short, business was good there but not profitable enough with a dollar menu that has your customers spending on average $5.00 and an ever rising term of lease.

On the other hand a place like Panera which garners on average $15.00 per customer, not counting what they grab to go from the bakery, would easily turn a handsome profit after buying the property.

Ask anyone who frequents the Concord Panera which is landlocked and has a huge parking problem; it does a very, very good business. It is always packed in there.

jrc · 03-23-2010, 12:25 PM

If it was my property, I would try for a condo marina. 52 slips at even a low-ball $50,000 per slip is $2.6 million. It would take a lot of Panera bread to make that kind of money that fast. (i love Panera, we have two near my house)

Now I don't think the state should allow a marina that big to be built, but that's a politcal opinion. From a purely financial point of view it hards to imagine a more lucrative development.

meredith weekender · 03-23-2010, 12:27 PM

An ideal use for the property would be to use 75% of the building for a Panera Bread and the remaining 25% for a FIVE Guys Burger Shop. Just drop the docks back in the water and you'll be an instant success!

robmac · 03-23-2010, 01:11 PM

Love Five Guy Burgers.

Kamper · 03-23-2010, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meredith weekender

... Just drop the docks back in the water and you'll be an instant success!

When I used to go to that BK, it was usually by boat, for breakfast. The lake could use a couple more boat-to-breakfast places. Panera would certainly be good for that.

Hermit Cover · 03-23-2010, 04:26 PM

Everywhere Five Guys opens a store....their hamburgers are rated#1 by the local critics.....the Murrel family had the right idea when they started their first restaurants in the Alexandria Virginia area and when they started franchising their concept and brand....their requirement is that the franchisee open FIVE stores in an open geographic area...in high traffic areas like strip malls and preferably corner exposures....or food courts in large malls. I doubt that this area would support Five Five Guys....They will open 200 new stores in 2010 and their Boston stores are the Number One Hamburgers in their market. The burgers are fabulous...their fries are fresh and delicious (a small fries will easily feed two appetites)....and the peanuts are great for the wait.

Resident 2B · 03-23-2010, 04:49 PM

I was in Richmond, Va. over the weekend and visited a Five Guys for the first time.

WOW! What a great idea.

Real burgers, fresh never frozen, fresh cut potatoes for french fries done in pure peanut oil. You name it and they have it for toppings, at no extra charge, including grilled onions and grilled mushrooms. Fresh lettuce leaves not shreaded is also available as a topping. A small order of fries would easily feed two to four people, and they were great!

A franchise in the lakes area, with the five stores that I think are required, would do well as long as they had to right locations for on season and off season. One in Meredith, one on the Weirs, one in downtown Laconia, one in Wolfeboro and one in Alton/Gillford would work. Mike D's and BK would be ghost towns.

I hear they have a few stores in the North Shore area of Mass.

R2B

jrc · 03-23-2010, 04:58 PM

There is at least one Five guys on Amherst St in Nashua

robmac · 03-23-2010, 05:36 PM

Been there, done that, even got the T-shirt great burgers

BroadHopper · 03-23-2010, 06:34 PM

Went to the one on Willow St. in Manchester. Looking into getting a francise and possibly open near Weirs. Right now, leases are high and commercial properties are high as well. To float a business year round requires careful planning. Especially with the economy today.
The BK property will be ideal but as stated above the cost is to prohibitive for a seasonal restuarant business.

VitaBene · 03-23-2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airedale1

Had you ever been to the Laconia Burger King? It had it's own dock with slips for about two dozen boats, tables with umbrellas and it's own sandy beach with plenty of parking on both sides of the restaurant.

In the Spring, Summer and Fall, boaters would flock and dock there and grab a quick lunch with their friends before before heading back out for more fun on the lake. Families would drive there and grab a lunch and sit on the beach. In the winter snowmobilers and cross country skiers would also stop there.

In short, business was good there but not profitable enough with a dollar menu that has your customers spending on average $5.00 and an ever rising term of lease.

On the other hand a place like Panera which garners on average $15.00 per customer, not counting what they grab to go from the bakery, would easily turn a handsome profit after buying the property.

Ask anyone who frequents the Concord Panera which is landlocked and has a huge parking problem; it does a very, very good business. It is always packed in there.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of that property and the restaurant business in general around the Lake. In season weeks and some off season weekends are a beautiful thing for restaurant owners around here, but most will tell you there is no flocking.

IMO, the added costs of taxes and mortgage payments for a waterfront restaurant cannot be borne in our short season.

VitaBene · 03-23-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Went to the one on Willow St. in Manchester. Looking into getting a francise and possibly open near Weirs. Right now, leases are high and commercial properties are high as well. To float a business year round requires careful planning. Especially with the economy today.
The BK property will be ideal but as stated above the cost is to prohibitive for a seasonal restuarant business.

BTW, I love Five Guys. Before I started using BWI, I always flew though Dulles and ate at 5 Guys- love it. There is one in Murrell's Inlet in SC (where we stay for Myrtle Beach Bikeweek), so I can't wait!

Airedale1 · 03-24-2010, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

Sorry, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of that property and the restaurant business in general around the Lake. In season weeks and some off season weekends are a beautiful thing for restaurant owners around here, but most will tell you there is no flocking.

IMO, the added costs of taxes and mortgage payments for a waterfront restaurant cannot be borne in our short season.

My comments were made specifically about the Burger King in Laconia and I made no comments whatsoever regarding, "the restaurant business in general around the Lake."

That being said, when you say, "IMO, the added costs of taxes and mortgage payments for a waterfront restaurant cannot be borne in our short season." Are you saying that there are no successful waterfront restaurants on Winnipesaukee?

VitaBene · 03-24-2010, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airedale1

My comments were made specifically about the Burger King in Laconia and I made no comments whatsoever regarding, "the restaurant business in general around the Lake."

That being said, when you say, "IMO, the added costs of taxes and mortgage payments for a waterfront restaurant cannot be borne in our short season." Are you saying that there are no successful waterfront restaurants on Winnipesaukee?

There are plenty of pre-existing restaurants that are on the lake and are successful, but I can't think of many (or any) stand-alone restaurants that have been redeveloped as this site requires.

I guess my point was that if Panera were to open a restaurant in the Lakes region, they would likely look at sites that are not waterfront. Assuming a property cost delta of at least plus $1 Million and an increased tax burden of $3K a month, Winni traffic would have to support an additional $10-12K/month. That does not take into consideration the year round maintenance costs on the currently unprotected docks or the nightmarish DES process to build there.

I am not saying someone won't bite on that property as a restaurant, but I sure would not.

dpg · 03-24-2010, 10:56 AM

I think their opening one like 4 miles down the street from me in Mass. Drove by with the wife a few weeks ago and she commented she had heard of the place and said their supposed to be good. I'll have to check again but I think it was 5 guys. In Natick for anyone familiar with the area.

mcdude · 03-24-2010, 11:29 AM

yup...they opened up a five guys down here in my town in Mass. Sorry but I was not impressed. Over ten bucks for a soda, fries and cheeseburger? I think not. Wendy's is only a block away. I'll go there and save some money.

meredith weekender · 03-24-2010, 12:46 PM

The wife and I have been to the 5 Guys in Manchester for lunch a couple of times now. We get 2 cheeseburgers

, a small fry

and 2 med drinks for $15 including tax. Not bad in my opinion.

winniplayhouse · 03-24-2010, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpg

I think their opening one like 4 miles down the street from me in Mass. Drove by with the wife a few weeks ago and she commented she had heard of the place and said their supposed to be good. I'll have to check again but I think it was 5 guys. In Natick for anyone familiar with the area.

If you're talking about the one next to Panera in Natick then, yes, it's a 5 Guys. Drove by a couple weeks ago.

nicole · 03-24-2010, 07:17 PM

My husband and I have been to the Five Guys in Nashua many times as well as the Manchester location once. When we were in Nashua, we spoke to the manager and the goal is about 16 stores in total for NH-of course that will be over time. I questioned the Laconia area-so we could have one at home

and the manager actually is quite famiiar with Weir's Beach and said he used to work in the area and said it would probably be more like the Tilton area close to the highway as opposed to a seasonal area. I guess we will wait and see. I have heard that Keene, Dover and another seacoast area might be next. At least that is what I heard from talking to employees/managers while I was at Five Guys so I guess we will wait and see.

I love Five Guys!

Airedale1 · 03-26-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

There are plenty of pre-existing restaurants that are on the lake and are successful, but I can't think of many (or any) stand-alone restaurants that have been redeveloped as this site requires.

I guess my point was that if Panera were to open a restaurant in the Lakes region, they would likely look at sites that are not waterfront. Assuming a property cost delta of at least plus $1 Million and an increased tax burden of $3K a month, Winni traffic would have to support an additional $10-12K/month. That does not take into consideration the year round maintenance costs on the currently unprotected docks or the nightmarish DES process to build there.

I am not saying someone won't bite on that property as a restaurant, but I sure would not.

All good points and although I agree with your assessment, I would still love to see a Panera open there or for that matter anywhere in the Lakes Region.

VitaBene · 03-27-2010, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airedale1

All good points and although I agree with your assessment, I would still love to see a Panera open there or for that matter anywhere in the Lakes Region.

Paul, I agree completely. I would love to see a Panera (and 5 Guys) in the area!! Are Paneras franchises or all company stores?

RI Swamp Yankee · 03-30-2010, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airedale1

... with plenty of parking on both sides of the restaurant.....

That is one of the problems, it is two different pieces of property with some animosity between the owners.

OTOH: went to the 5 guys at Patriot Place a couple of weks ago and loved the burgers. A bit pricy but far better than a Wendy's or McD. (No FLL, 5 guys doesn't have a dollar menu

)

sa meredith · 03-31-2010, 02:46 PM

I had never heard of "Five Guys Burgers and Fries" until reading this thread..so I took a drive up to Manchester this afternoon. Holy Bacon Burger Batman!!!!
I do agree with the one comment that it is a touch pricey for fast food (tough / impossible to get out of there for under $10), but what a burger...and the fries? Possibly the best since the curley Qs at Skips in Merrimack, MA.
Great, great fries...and the burgers...sort of like you made when you first started to cook. Pounding out the burger by hand, just barely round, and then cooked until the edges were charcoal. Not at all your fancy restarant style burger, not all thick and running with juice...more like your fat uncle Joe cooked on his charcoal grill in the back yard. Every patty well done. A true hamburger/cheeseburger/bacon burger. Nothing at all, at all, at all, at all like a Wendy's/McDs/ BK burger. Not even close.

brk-lnt · 03-31-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sa meredith

I had never heard of "Five Guys Burgers and Fries" until reading this thread..so I took a drive up to Manchester this afternoon. Holy Bacon Bacon Burger Batman!!!!

Yeah, 5 Guys is the bomb. I was at the Amherst street location yesterday. Did you get the Cajun fries or regular? I'm a big fan of the cajun style.

Happy Gourmand · 04-02-2010, 07:11 AM

Wow....memories! I wonder how many forum members have enjoyed a Skip's burger?

sa meredith · 04-02-2010, 09:48 AM

We are slipping off topic here...but just to respond...
Brk-Int, I got the regular fries (not cajun), and what great fries they were...real potatoe taste. Fantastic...loaded them up with vinager and ketchup. I have no doubt Five Guys would do well wherever they open up, but the old BK location...maybe not so much. A little too "seasonal"...although imagine being able to pull the boat in there, and have it walked right down to the dock. THAT would be something. I think a Five Guys would do very well mixed in with the other spots right off exit 20, in Tilton.
Phantom...I remember going to Skips with my family as a young child in the 70's. And then, as a teenager in the 80's, on our way to the beach. I then took a 12/14 year break, never going. But returned to find it exactly as I remembered it. What a great spot for a quick lunch...plenty of room outside on the lawn to hang out, and let the kids run wild (if you have kids).
Just remember to tell them what you want on the burger...if you don't say anything, it comes out with Mayo, lettuce, tomatoe. Strange...mayo??? But that's how they do it.

SIKSUKR · 04-05-2010, 07:51 AM

Ok now I didn't know anything about 5 guys until this thread. Went to the Manch one last week and while it was nice fresh food, I thought almost $9 for just a cheeseburger and fries was very expensive. Nice fresh made burger and I do really like the fresh cut fries. 10 people in the grill area making the food. Not quick for me either. Went before 11:30 am and waited about 10 minutes. However, I will go back.

jrc · 04-05-2010, 08:57 AM

Well since we are totally off topic...

Friends have been raving about Five guys and this thread is positive as well so I had to try it.

Ok what am I missing? A decent hamburger and fries, so what? It's not the best hamburger or fries I ever had and it's not a bargain. Sure I might go again but I wouldn't go out of my way to go there.

Pine Island Guy · 04-05-2010, 10:11 AM

I agree with JRC... saw the long lines at the one in Nashua and wondered what we were missing out on... so went one night and had a good burger but a bit on the pricey side and table/seating was not so good...

Yes, much better than McD's, BK, or Wendy's... but not better than any of the locally owned spots where you can get a nice table and relax (and order beer too) for about the same price...

PIG

BroadHopper · 04-05-2010, 11:09 AM

Those who like 5 Guys and don't mind the price..............

Try T-Bones next to the Burger King property. They have awesome burgers at reasonable prices. And have a brew with it!

Those 55+ baby boomers, ask for the 55+ payback card. 'Frequent Eater card'. There is even a 55+ menu!

sa meredith · 04-05-2010, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

Those who like 5 Guys and don't mind the price..............

Try T-Bones next to the Burger King property. They have awesome burgers at reasonable prices. And have a brew with it!

Those 55+ baby boomers, ask for the 55+ payback card. 'Frequent Eater card'. There is even a 55+ menu!

I agree with you about TBones burgers. Unreal. My favorite is the MAF burger.
But it's just different. TBones is great for a nice thick, cooked the way you want it burger. And all of their burgers are fantastic.
But Five Guys is the true, cooked in your back yard on a charcoal grille, type burger. Nothing fancy about them. I view them as two very different things.

WinnDixie · 04-05-2010, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Well since we are totally off topic...

Friends have been raving about Five guys and this thread is positive as well so I had to try it.

Ok what am I missing? A decent hamburger and fries, so what? It's not the best hamburger or fries I ever had and it's not a bargain. Sure I might go again but I wouldn't go out of my way to go there.

______________________________

We have Five Guys here. Had heard a lot about it, so went the Saturday after Thanksgiving enroute to take our grandson to the airport-- not a lot of time to spend-- but I wasn't impressed. I seem to be in the minority with friends here, too, but the hamburger and accompaniments were slammed together and just a bunch of fries in a paper bag (?). The seating was crowded, too, and--of course--the place was a zoo. It probably deserves another chance. I see the additional problem up there, as has been suggested, can something like 5 Guys stay viable in the off season? Same problem--likely--with Panerea, mentoned earlier; but that sure is a GREAT place!

Boston Fireguy · 04-18-2010, 10:54 AM

How many here remember the Shore Diner that was on the BK site back in the 60's & 70s? A great place for breakfast lunch and dinner. I still have a full color business card with the building on it.

I was just 18 or so then but I remember my Dad saying the property was sold for about a million back then to build the now empty BK. Can anyone confirm this?

mcdude · 04-18-2010, 11:06 AM

From Lakes Region History On-Line

Boston Fireguy · 04-18-2010, 11:10 AM

That's the pic!

topwater · 04-19-2010, 07:57 AM

Actually, the Shore Diner was down in front of McDonalds, closer to the Vetanarians building.

SAMIAM · 04-19-2010, 09:11 AM

Everybody went there to see "Spider" the fastest cook in town

BroadHopper · 04-19-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Everybody went there to see "Spider" the fastest cook in town

Yes! He was the star of the Lakes Region at the time. Featured in Belknap College yearbooks, he was well known.

mcdude · 04-19-2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

This color photograph depicts the interior of the Shore Diner and Dinerette on Union Avenue, Lakeport, in the late 1940s, late at night.

Ken ”Spider” Osgood counts money at the counter (a $2 bill is seen on top). He has two paper bags beside him. He wears a white T-shirt. Boxing gloves are positioned in front of hiim. A cash register is at the end of the counter. In the far background is the entrance to the dinette section of the restaurant with a waitress in the back. A pie safe or freezer is behind Spider. One fixed stool is seen in the foreground with brown vinyl cover.

Winnipesaukee · 05-29-2010, 03:39 AM

I'm glad I'm not alone here. 5 Guys has to be the most disgusting place I have ever been to eat. I have a friend allergic to peanuts; he can't go within a quarter mile of one of these places.

Let's see. You walk in, and grab some uncovered peanuts out of a large box. Wait in line, order a burger. The thing is saturated in peanut oil and cooked on a greasy grill that must never gets cleaned. All the ingredients you get on the burger are also cooked in the oil on a Model T-esque assembly line. When you get it, the oil has penetrated the tin foil it's wrapped in (or just leaked out the edges) and saturated the brown paper lunch bag it comes in. You take a bite. The buns are greasy too. Finish it off, you feel sick (of course you do, it's peanut oil with a side of burger), and have to go to the bathroom to wash off the film of grease from your face. Sit back down, pop a Tums, and realize, oops, you forgot to eat the fries sitting in the bottom of your bag. They taste disgusting, yet you still eat them, because it is novel that the whiteboard says they came from Minidoka, Idaho.

I mean come on. That's disgusting. Why would anyone subject themselves to that garbage?

For those in the Boston area, go to RF O'Sullivans in Somerville for the best burger in the world. The burgers are properly stored, seasoned, prepared, cooked, and served. Or, since this is New Hampshire and we're all outdoor folk not afraid of the wilderness, we should be in the back yard with a spatula, charring some patties over a charcoal grill.

Winnipesaukee · 05-29-2010, 03:41 AM

Now on the menu at every 5 Guys restaurant.

VitaBene · 05-29-2010, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

I'm glad I'm not alone here. 5 Guys has to be the most disgusting place I have ever been to eat. I have a friend allergic to peanuts; he can't go within a quarter mile of one of these places.

Let's see. You walk in, and grab some uncovered peanuts out of a large box. Wait in line, order a burger. The thing is saturated in peanut oil and cooked on a greasy grill that must never gets cleaned. All the ingredients you get on the burger are also cooked in the oil on a Model T-esque assembly line. When you get it, the oil has penetrated the tin foil it's wrapped in (or just leaked out the edges) and saturated the brown paper lunch bag it comes in. You take a bite. The buns are greasy too. Finish it off, you feel sick (of course you do, it's peanut oil with a side of burger), and have to go to the bathroom to wash off the film of grease from your face. Sit back down, pop a Tums, and realize, oops, you forgot to eat the fries sitting in the bottom of your bag. They taste disgusting, yet you still eat them, because it is novel that the whiteboard says they came from Minidoka, Idaho.

I mean come on. That's disgusting. Why would anyone subject themselves to that garbage?

For those in the Boston area, go to RF O'Sullivans in Somerville for the best burger in the world. The burgers are properly stored, seasoned, prepared, cooked, and served. Or, since this is New Hampshire and we're all outdoor folk not afraid of the wilderness, we should be in the back yard with a spatula, charring some patties over a charcoal grill.

Tell us how you really feel!

Sorry, but I think you will get a few folks disagreeing (and for some reason new franchises open weekly).

Frankly, I keep scrolling back up and rereading your post and shaking my head. I think you must have fallen out of the wrong side of the bed. You smear a restaurant chain by calling them the most disgusting place ever.

I'll start near the top of your post:
1. There is nothing wrong with "uncovered peanuts", they are in a shell.
2. I am quite sure that the Owners and board of health requires that the griddles be cleaned.
3. It is a fast food restaurant, most typically use some form of an assembly line (as do most 4 star places).
4. The grease on the bag comes from the fries.
5. I have never felt sick after eating there nor had to pop a Tums.
6. The food is not garbage nor is it improperly stored (as your comparision to O'Sullivans suggests)

Regarding your rave about charring a burger over coals- there are few things worse for you than that.

I found your post to be disgusting (I used this word because you did 3X).

Five Guys is what it is- a fast food place with pretty tasty food.

Argie's Wife · 05-29-2010, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Everybody went there to see "Spider" the fastest cook in town

My brother, who's turning 70 in August, tells stories about Spider. My brother would go to the Diner for lunch and talk about how fast he was - I guess the guy was multi-tasking before we knew what the words "multi-tasking" meant. I guess he put on quite a show!

sa meredith · 05-29-2010, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

I'm glad I'm not alone here. 5 Guys has to be the most disgusting place I have ever been to eat. I have a friend allergic to peanuts; he can't go within a quarter mile of one of these places.

Let's see. You walk in, and grab some uncovered peanuts out of a large box. Wait in line, order a burger. The thing is saturated in peanut oil and cooked on a greasy grill that must never gets cleaned. All the ingredients you get on the burger are also cooked in the oil on a Model T-esque assembly line. When you get it, the oil has penetrated the tin foil it's wrapped in (or just leaked out the edges) and saturated the brown paper lunch bag it comes in. You take a bite. The buns are greasy too. Finish it off, you feel sick (of course you do, it's peanut oil with a side of burger), and have to go to the bathroom to wash off the film of grease from your face. Sit back down, pop a Tums, and realize, oops, you forgot to eat the fries sitting in the bottom of your bag. They taste disgusting, yet you still eat them, because it is novel that the whiteboard says they came from Minidoka, Idaho.

I mean come on. That's disgusting. Why would anyone subject themselves to that garbage?

For those in the Boston area, go to RF O'Sullivans in Somerville for the best burger in the world. The burgers are properly stored, seasoned, prepared, cooked, and served. Or, since this is New Hampshire and we're all outdoor folk not afraid of the wilderness, we should be in the back yard with a spatula, charring some patties over a charcoal grill.

Disgusting...really? A little strong. Maybe it's not your type of place...that's fine. Don't go again.
But there are some people around who still enjoy old fashioned, not good for you, pre-politcally correct, pre- heart healthy, greasy spoon type food once in a while.
As I stated in an earlier post...they certainly do not serve fancy, gourmet style, juicy burgers. They are more like the ones your "Fat Uncle Joe" would cook out in the back yard on his charcoal grille in the 70's.
And what's wrong with one of those from time to time? So, you had to go and wash your hands when you were thru....ooohhhh, the horror!

Winnipesaukee · 05-29-2010, 11:41 AM

Vita, my post was full of opinions, but did I get any facts wrong?

The problem is Fat Uncle Joe grilled his burgers and didn't baste his patties with peanut oil. It doesn't "cook off" like some other oils. The result, my friends, is grease. Lots and lots of it. You can either use copious amounts of oil or grill on a griddle. You may not do both. Oh yeah, and peanut oil is a mild laxative.

He also grilled his burgers, which allowed the fat and grease to drip down. And at 5 Guys (McD's, Burger King, Wendys) you feel (or get) sick afterward! The fact is grilling (i.e., charcoal, propane) anything is much "healthier" than what fast food burger chains do.

I'll bash all the fast foods equally, but there is a special place in my heart for 5 Guys.

And I think we can all agree that their burgers look like this. This is not about being politically correct. It's repulsive, and it amazes me that a place like this can thrive selling stuff like this. Only in America?

Definitely not the vita bene...

What do I think should be in Burger King's spot? I think Kevin should move his Cafe there (I have no affiliation, other than being a very satisfied customer).

no-engine · 05-29-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

My brother, who's turning 70 in August, tells stories about Spider. My brother would go to the Diner for lunch and talk about how fast he was - I guess the guy was multi-tasking before we knew what the words "multi-tasking" meant. I guess he put on quite a show!

After the shore diner on water, he was at Paugus Diner, about where it is now.
Spider Osgood, now repairs clocks; corner Stark Street I believe is he.

He was so fast: if he was at end of diner and saw one bring out a cigarette, he'd have a match going and be at other end in a flash!

VitaBene · 05-29-2010, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

Vita, my post was full of opinions, but did I get any facts wrong?

The problem is Fat Uncle Joe grilled his burgers and didn't baste his patties with peanut oil. It doesn't "cook off" like some other oils. The result, my friends, is grease. Lots and lots of it. You can either use copious amounts of oil or grill on a griddle. You may not do both. Oh yeah, and peanut oil is a mild laxative.

He also grilled his burgers, which allowed the fat and grease to drip down. And at 5 Guys (McD's, Burger King, Wendys) you feel (or get) sick afterward! The fact is grilling (i.e., charcoal, propane) anything is much "healthier" than what fast food burger chains do.

I'll bash all the fast foods equally, but there is a special place in my heart for 5 Guys.

And I think we can all agree that their burgers look like this. This is not about being politically correct. It's repulsive, and it amazes me that a place like this can thrive selling stuff like this. Only in America?

Definitely not the vita bene...

What do I think should be in Burger King's spot? I think Kevin should move his Cafe there (I have no affiliation, other than being a very satisfied customer).

Burgers aren't about being healthy, they are about tasting good. If you want healthy, steam a skinless chicken breast. Fast food is an indulgence, not a staple.

You can't grill on a griddle, only a grill. The griddle allows you to cook the burger in the rendrered fat without it dripping through and creating flare-ups.

Thank God a place like America exists and allows the free market to thrive.

Argie's Wife · 05-29-2010, 09:24 PM

... and can we get Girl Scout cookies for dessert?

RI Swamp Yankee · 05-29-2010, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

... Let's see. You walk in, and grab some uncovered peanuts out of a large box. Wait in line, order a burger. The thing is saturated in peanut oil and cooked on a greasy grill that must never gets cleaned. All the ingredients you get on the burger are also cooked in the oil on a Model T-esque assembly line. When you get it, the oil has penetrated the tin foil it's wrapped in (or just leaked out the edges) and saturated the brown paper lunch bag it comes in. You take a bite. The buns are greasy too. ....

You say that like it is a bad thing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

.... The burgers are properly stored, seasoned, prepared, cooked, and served. ...

Translations:
properly stored = frozen (suffering from freezer burn)
seasoned = piled with added salt for "flavor"
cooked = I hope so! ... but don't over cook untill totally dry
and served = as opposed to what???

Winnipesaukee · 05-30-2010, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaBene

Burgers aren't about being healthy, they are about tasting good.

But these burgers don't taste good!!!! It's decent frozen meat (at best) overpowered by salt and peanut oil!!!!

1) Thank God America exists to allow a free market to thrive.
2) Thank God for numb palates that allow lousy restaurants to thrive in this free market!

Vita, if I see you on the lake this summer I'll be sure to drop off a real burger to you if we're grilling. Even my mustard is homemade!

Pace e bene!

Kamper · 05-30-2010, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

... and can we get Girl Scout cookies for dessert?

"Are they made with real Girl Scouts?" (Wednesday Adams)

SAMIAM · 05-30-2010, 07:51 AM

Hate to steal your thunder, Winni, but the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition which is the bible of nutrition to most doctors, recently completed a 3 year study of all the previous studies on saturated fat and found it is not fat at all that contributes to clogged arteries, but carbs. Dr Atkins will probably rise from his grave because he's so happy.
Kinda like global warming....we all believed it until we found out we were being had.
So, anyway Winni.....get over there and get yourself a big ol' greasy burger...it's ok.

RI Swamp Yankee · 05-30-2010, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

...It's decent frozen meat (at best) overpowered by salt and peanut oil!!!!

5 Guys burgers are not frozen, they don't add salt and I don't think they they cook them in peanut oil.

Irish mist · 05-31-2010, 02:14 AM

Used to be a time in this republic when people were left alone to eat & smoke as they pleased and use a 3 gallon flush toliet too......these days, not so much. These "lifestyle laws" start out with good intentions.....but we all know the road to you know "where" is paved with good intentions.

baygo · 09-12-2010, 08:52 AM

I've placed several calls to the posted phone number to get the specs on this property. No one has returned my call yet. I'm kinda curious if I can use it for my overflow. If anyone here knows the owner, please ask them to check their voice mail. Winter is coming so I won't be playing much golf therefore I may as well clean up another abandoned restaurant.

BroadHopper · 09-12-2010, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baygo

I've placed several calls to the posted phone number to get the specs on this property. No one has returned my call yet. I'm kinda curious if I can use it for my overflow. If anyone here knows the owner, please ask them to check their voice mail. Winter is coming so I won't be playing much golf therefore I may as well clean up another abandoned restaurant.

That was the last name of the owner that died. The land was in his family for at least 100 years. They started the Laconia Ice Company. In the days they harvest the ice from Paugus Bay and stored it in a huge ice house on the property. The railroad use to go by the property and haul ice to Boston.

When the owner died a few years ago, the land went to the two children. They went up on the lease and BK declined. They are now trying to sell it as two properties at above market price.

I would suggest you find the Rudzinskis and go from there.

I was told the T-Bones,CJ chain made an offer and was refused.

RI Swamp Yankee · 09-12-2010, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

...
When the owner died a few years ago, the land went to the two children. They went up on the lease and BK declined. They are now trying to sell it as two properties at above market price.....

Both pieces are not owned by the same person/family.

There are 2 older threads about the property:
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ht=Burger+King
and
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...ht=Burger+King

and an old story from the Citizen:
http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...736/-1/CITIZEN

I took this picture in August 2008 of the fence that divides the 2 properties. The BK franchise owner owns the piece on the left. He bought it to expand the parking.

CGI3 · 09-12-2010, 08:03 PM

It's actually 2 separate parcels. The building is owned by the 2 sons that wanted to almost double his rent. The parking lot is owned by the previous owner of the Burger King franchise.

VitaBene · 09-13-2010, 06:05 AM

Baygo,

That site is a legal and physical mess. I would say that it would take somewhere around $5M to get a nice place going there.

Good luck on finding a second location- by all accounts your first one has been a hit!

jrc · 09-13-2010, 03:45 PM

I wonder how many years have to go by before the grandfathering on the docks runs out? Without that, there not going to be 52 slips there and the property is worth a lot less. Every year that lot stays empty money is burning.

dpg · 09-23-2010, 11:28 AM

Five Guys rocks and I don't care what anybody else thinks.

03-23-2010, 04:26 PM	#10
Hermit Cover Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hermit Cove Posts: 354 Thanks: 20 Thanked 68 Times in 40 Posts	Five Guys Everywhere Five Guys opens a store....their hamburgers are rated#1 by the local critics.....the Murrel family had the right idea when they started their first restaurants in the Alexandria Virginia area and when they started franchising their concept and brand....their requirement is that the franchisee open FIVE stores in an open geographic area...in high traffic areas like strip malls and preferably corner exposures....or food courts in large malls. I doubt that this area would support Five Five Guys....They will open 200 new stores in 2010 and their Boston stores are the Number One Hamburgers in their market. The burgers are fabulous...their fries are fresh and delicious (a small fries will easily feed two appetites)....and the peanuts are great for the wait.

03-23-2010, 06:34 PM	#14
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,509 Thanks: 3,116 Thanked 1,089 Times in 783 Posts	Five Guys Went to the one on Willow St. in Manchester. Looking into getting a francise and possibly open near Weirs. Right now, leases are high and commercial properties are high as well. To float a business year round requires careful planning. Especially with the economy today. The BK property will be ideal but as stated above the cost is to prohibitive for a seasonal restuarant business. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

03-24-2010, 11:29 AM	#20
mcdude Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rock Haven Lake - West Newfield, ME Posts: 5,359 Thanks: 374 Thanked 1,041 Times in 489 Posts	yup...they opened up a five guys down here in my town in Mass. Sorry but I was not impressed. Over ten bucks for a soda, fries and cheeseburger? I think not. Wendy's is only a block away. I'll go there and save some money. __________________

03-24-2010, 12:46 PM	#21
meredith weekender Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Meredith / Manchester Posts: 373 Thanks: 87 Thanked 83 Times in 56 Posts	The wife and I have been to the 5 Guys in Manchester for lunch a couple of times now. We get 2 cheeseburgers, a small fry and 2 med drinks for $15 including tax. Not bad in my opinion.

03-31-2010, 02:46 PM	#27
sa meredith Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 986 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 32 Thanked 352 Times in 137 Posts	fantastic I had never heard of "Five Guys Burgers and Fries" until reading this thread..so I took a drive up to Manchester this afternoon. Holy Bacon Burger Batman!!!! I do agree with the one comment that it is a touch pricey for fast food (tough / impossible to get out of there for under $10), but what a burger...and the fries? Possibly the best since the curley Qs at Skips in Merrimack, MA. Great, great fries...and the burgers...sort of like you made when you first started to cook. Pounding out the burger by hand, just barely round, and then cooked until the edges were charcoal. Not at all your fancy restarant style burger, not all thick and running with juice...more like your fat uncle Joe cooked on his charcoal grill in the back yard. Every patty well done. A true hamburger/cheeseburger/bacon burger. Nothing at all, at all, at all, at all like a Wendy's/McDs/ BK burger. Not even close. Last edited by sa meredith; 04-01-2010 at 12:14 PM.

03-22-2010, 03:04 PM	#1
Airedale1 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Laconia Posts: 595 Thanks: 557 Thanked 1,569 Times in 274 Posts	The Laconia Burger King Property A very nice piece of property. What would you like to see there? I would be happy as a clam if they built a Panera there. I just love their soup and sandwiches, especially the Smokehouse Turkey Panini and their Cream of Chicken & Wild Rice soup. I find myself driving all the way down to Concord at least once a week for lunch there. I wish there was one here in the Lakes Region. Although, maybe it being far away isn't too bad, because their bakery stuff is way too tempting for me. __________________ "The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit." Nelson Henderson (1865-1943)

03-22-2010, 04:34 PM	#2
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	Too bad but I think the owners have priced themselves out of the market to be able to sell or lease the properties. ( there are two involved )

03-22-2010, 04:48 PM	#3
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Is the marina plan dead. Seems like a marina will yield larger and quicker cash than a restaurant. It still amazes me that all that water front is still vacant.

03-23-2010, 12:25 PM	#6
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	If it was my property, I would try for a condo marina. 52 slips at even a low-ball $50,000 per slip is $2.6 million. It would take a lot of Panera bread to make that kind of money that fast. (i love Panera, we have two near my house) Now I don't think the state should allow a marina that big to be built, but that's a politcal opinion. From a purely financial point of view it hards to imagine a more lucrative development.

03-23-2010, 12:27 PM	#7
meredith weekender Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Meredith / Manchester Posts: 373 Thanks: 87 Thanked 83 Times in 56 Posts	An ideal use for the property would be to use 75% of the building for a Panera Bread and the remaining 25% for a FIVE Guys Burger Shop. Just drop the docks back in the water and you'll be an instant success!

03-23-2010, 01:11 PM	#8
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	Love Five Guy Burgers.

03-23-2010, 04:49 PM	#11
Resident 2B Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Shore, MA Posts: 1,352 Thanks: 987 Thanked 310 Times in 161 Posts	I was in Richmond, Va. over the weekend and visited a Five Guys for the first time. WOW! What a great idea. Real burgers, fresh never frozen, fresh cut potatoes for french fries done in pure peanut oil. You name it and they have it for toppings, at no extra charge, including grilled onions and grilled mushrooms. Fresh lettuce leaves not shreaded is also available as a topping. A small order of fries would easily feed two to four people, and they were great! A franchise in the lakes area, with the five stores that I think are required, would do well as long as they had to right locations for on season and off season. One in Meredith, one on the Weirs, one in downtown Laconia, one in Wolfeboro and one in Alton/Gillford would work. Mike D's and BK would be ghost towns. I hear they have a few stores in the North Shore area of Mass. R2B

03-23-2010, 04:58 PM	#12
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	There is at least one Five guys on Amherst St in Nashua

03-23-2010, 05:36 PM	#13
robmac Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Nashua,Meredith Posts: 951 Thanks: 213 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts	Been there, done that, even got the T-shirt great burgers

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03-24-2010, 10:56 AM	#19
dpg Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 2,560 Thanks: 149 Thanked 229 Times in 166 Posts	I think their opening one like 4 miles down the street from me in Mass. Drove by with the wife a few weeks ago and she commented she had heard of the place and said their supposed to be good. I'll have to check again but I think it was 5 guys. In Natick for anyone familiar with the area.

03-24-2010, 07:17 PM	#23
nicole Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Weirs Beach, NH Posts: 139 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 178 Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts	My husband and I have been to the Five Guys in Nashua many times as well as the Manchester location once. When we were in Nashua, we spoke to the manager and the goal is about 16 stores in total for NH-of course that will be over time. I questioned the Laconia area-so we could have one at home and the manager actually is quite famiiar with Weir's Beach and said he used to work in the area and said it would probably be more like the Tilton area close to the highway as opposed to a seasonal area. I guess we will wait and see. I have heard that Keene, Dover and another seacoast area might be next. At least that is what I heard from talking to employees/managers while I was at Five Guys so I guess we will wait and see. I love Five Guys!

04-02-2010, 07:11 AM	#29
Happy Gourmand Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Ruskin FL Posts: 1,025 Thanks: 187 Thanked 322 Times in 179 Posts	Skip's in Merrimack MA Wow....memories! I wonder how many forum members have enjoyed a Skip's burger?

04-02-2010, 09:48 AM	#30
sa meredith Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 986 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 32 Thanked 352 Times in 137 Posts	response We are slipping off topic here...but just to respond... Brk-Int, I got the regular fries (not cajun), and what great fries they were...real potatoe taste. Fantastic...loaded them up with vinager and ketchup. I have no doubt Five Guys would do well wherever they open up, but the old BK location...maybe not so much. A little too "seasonal"...although imagine being able to pull the boat in there, and have it walked right down to the dock. THAT would be something. I think a Five Guys would do very well mixed in with the other spots right off exit 20, in Tilton. Phantom...I remember going to Skips with my family as a young child in the 70's. And then, as a teenager in the 80's, on our way to the beach. I then took a 12/14 year break, never going. But returned to find it exactly as I remembered it. What a great spot for a quick lunch...plenty of room outside on the lawn to hang out, and let the kids run wild (if you have kids). Just remember to tell them what you want on the burger...if you don't say anything, it comes out with Mayo, lettuce, tomatoe. Strange...mayo??? But that's how they do it.

04-05-2010, 07:51 AM	#31
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	Ok now I didn't know anything about 5 guys until this thread. Went to the Manch one last week and while it was nice fresh food, I thought almost $9 for just a cheeseburger and fries was very expensive. Nice fresh made burger and I do really like the fresh cut fries. 10 people in the grill area making the food. Not quick for me either. Went before 11:30 am and waited about 10 minutes. However, I will go back. __________________ SIKSUKR

04-05-2010, 08:57 AM	#32
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Well since we are totally off topic... Friends have been raving about Five guys and this thread is positive as well so I had to try it. Ok what am I missing? A decent hamburger and fries, so what? It's not the best hamburger or fries I ever had and it's not a bargain. Sure I might go again but I wouldn't go out of my way to go there.

04-05-2010, 10:11 AM	#33
Pine Island Guy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: pine island of course! Posts: 405 Thanks: 236 Thanked 233 Times in 111 Posts	5 guys... I agree with JRC... saw the long lines at the one in Nashua and wondered what we were missing out on... so went one night and had a good burger but a bit on the pricey side and table/seating was not so good... Yes, much better than McD's, BK, or Wendy's... but not better than any of the locally owned spots where you can get a nice table and relax (and order beer too) for about the same price... PIG

04-05-2010, 11:09 AM	#34
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,509 Thanks: 3,116 Thanked 1,089 Times in 783 Posts	Off topic again. Those who like 5 Guys and don't mind the price.............. Try T-Bones next to the Burger King property. They have awesome burgers at reasonable prices. And have a brew with it! Those 55+ baby boomers, ask for the 55+ payback card. 'Frequent Eater card'. There is even a 55+ menu! __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

04-18-2010, 10:54 AM	#37
Boston Fireguy Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sanders Bay/Naples FL/South Shore MA Posts: 42 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Before There Was A Burger King.... How many here remember the Shore Diner that was on the BK site back in the 60's & 70s? A great place for breakfast lunch and dinner. I still have a full color business card with the building on it. I was just 18 or so then but I remember my Dad saying the property was sold for about a million back then to build the now empty BK. Can anyone confirm this?

04-18-2010, 11:06 AM	#38
mcdude Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rock Haven Lake - West Newfield, ME Posts: 5,359 Thanks: 374 Thanked 1,041 Times in 489 Posts	From Lakes Region History On-Line __________________

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04-18-2010, 11:10 AM	#39
Boston Fireguy Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sanders Bay/Naples FL/South Shore MA Posts: 42 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Shore Diner That's the pic!

04-19-2010, 07:57 AM	#40
topwater Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 302 Thanks: 85 Thanked 116 Times in 48 Posts	Actually, the Shore Diner was down in front of McDonalds, closer to the Vetanarians building.

04-19-2010, 09:11 AM	#41
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,836 Thanks: 326 Thanked 1,626 Times in 562 Posts	Everybody went there to see "Spider" the fastest cook in town

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05-29-2010, 03:39 AM	#44
Winnipesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 Thanks: 14 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts	Here comes a rant... I'm glad I'm not alone here. 5 Guys has to be the most disgusting place I have ever been to eat. I have a friend allergic to peanuts; he can't go within a quarter mile of one of these places. Let's see. You walk in, and grab some uncovered peanuts out of a large box. Wait in line, order a burger. The thing is saturated in peanut oil and cooked on a greasy grill that must never gets cleaned. All the ingredients you get on the burger are also cooked in the oil on a Model T-esque assembly line. When you get it, the oil has penetrated the tin foil it's wrapped in (or just leaked out the edges) and saturated the brown paper lunch bag it comes in. You take a bite. The buns are greasy too. Finish it off, you feel sick (of course you do, it's peanut oil with a side of burger), and have to go to the bathroom to wash off the film of grease from your face. Sit back down, pop a Tums, and realize, oops, you forgot to eat the fries sitting in the bottom of your bag. They taste disgusting, yet you still eat them, because it is novel that the whiteboard says they came from Minidoka, Idaho. I mean come on. That's disgusting. Why would anyone subject themselves to that garbage? For those in the Boston area, go to RF O'Sullivans in Somerville for the best burger in the world. The burgers are properly stored, seasoned, prepared, cooked, and served. Or, since this is New Hampshire and we're all outdoor folk not afraid of the wilderness, we should be in the back yard with a spatula, charring some patties over a charcoal grill. __________________ Sail fast, live slow!

05-29-2010, 03:41 AM	#45
Winnipesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 Thanks: 14 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts	This last post was brought to you by.... Now on the menu at every 5 Guys restaurant. __________________ Sail fast, live slow!

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05-29-2010, 11:41 AM	#49
Winnipesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 233 Thanks: 14 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts	Vita, my post was full of opinions, but did I get any facts wrong? The problem is Fat Uncle Joe grilled his burgers and didn't baste his patties with peanut oil. It doesn't "cook off" like some other oils. The result, my friends, is grease. Lots and lots of it. You can either use copious amounts of oil or grill on a griddle. You may not do both. Oh yeah, and peanut oil is a mild laxative. He also grilled his burgers, which allowed the fat and grease to drip down. And at 5 Guys (McD's, Burger King, Wendys) you feel (or get) sick afterward! The fact is grilling (i.e., charcoal, propane) anything is much "healthier" than what fast food burger chains do. I'll bash all the fast foods equally, but there is a special place in my heart for 5 Guys. And I think we can all agree that their burgers look like this. This is not about being politically correct. It's repulsive, and it amazes me that a place like this can thrive selling stuff like this. Only in America? Definitely not the vita bene... What do I think should be in Burger King's spot? I think Kevin should move his Cafe there (I have no affiliation, other than being a very satisfied customer). __________________ Sail fast, live slow!