Sad Story, but good advice about ice conditions

[SteveA]

Nobody likes a story like this.. but it is good to remind folks.. (and kids!) that the ice isn't safe yet.

From The Citizen

http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...1606/0/CITIZEN

[sa meredith]

While I can certainly understand (and agree with) the Fire Departments position on the issue, I would ask, "is there anything more heart breaking than watching a helpless animal struggle?" I mean, at least a person can call for help, help themselves, or explain to someone what the problem is. But an innocent animal...what can it do? I guess nature takes it's course, and it can be unpleasant. I have a friend who lives year round on Long Island, and he tells me that, due to over population of deer, the food shortage had left the deer looking gaunt and sickly.
Anyway...I think it speaks to the good nature of the people who live on Paugus Bay..the fact that they would be bothered by the struggling animal.
Just my two cents...

[Lin]

I can understand the plights of both lakeshore residents and the fire department. I've been associated with our local fire department now for over 35 years and understand decisions that risk a members life over an animal. However, as a former forest and park supervisor for the state of MA this same type of incident seemed to happen every winter. I managed a four state park complex with three of them having bodies of water large enough for boating/swimming. Every year it seemed a dog or a deer would head out on the ice. Most times, we did end up calling fire rescue units as nearly 90% of the time people (shoreline residents or park visitors would try to risk their necks heading out to save the floundering deer or dog) So rather than have the person fall through we'd give the fire dept a call to assist with the rescue of the animal. I've seen more people fall in and either drown or nearly drown trying to rescue the animal or pet. My last deer on ice call was on a 700 acre lake where two boys in their early teens with ropes went out on about two inches of ice to rescue a downed and struggling deer. Residents called both the park and Fire dept who helped assist all three off the ice. We took the deer to the Tufts Wildlife center in Grafton, MA but like this deer in the article it did not survive. They told us human handling and splayed legs from the ice usually are the deer's downfall after rescue. I would not recommend a person going out on the ice to rescue your pet or an animal without proper clothing, ropes and training. It's a tough decision but saftey should be utmost on the mind in this situation.

[Dave R]

I certainly would not enjoy watching the deer struggle, but I think a well-placed 30-06 round, fired from the safety of shore, would have been a better choice than to risk human life to relocate a dying deer from the ice to the shore. I imagine the deer in question did not see the approaching rescuers as saviors; more likely they added to the shock since the poor thing probably thought they were coming to eat it. Its last moments alive were probably just awful.

I'm not a hunter and don't own a gun, if it matters.

[Coolbreeze]

After reading the story I feel the Fire Chief made the right decision. Acts of nature can seem harsh and somewhat horrific when witnessed by humans. I commend the chief for making a tough decision of risking human lives for the animal. After exploring other available avenues for the retrieval of a wild animal on ice and coming up with no solutions, he knew his crews were the most experienced and well equiped for that type of operation. That "job" wasn't necessarily saving a wild animal from its demise but that of preventing a untrained and emotional person from attempting to save the animal and potentially causing a larger more serious problem involving a human life.
Yes, if it were on a secluded spot with no people around the area, a mercy shot from a gun would have been the safest, quickest and most humane and probably the most appropriate. This was not the case here and I hope in the end the meat went to a needy family.

[Winnipesaukee]

Dave R,

Since you aren't a hunter and don't own a gun, I'll let you off the hook. Firing any gun onto the ice (and toward the opposite shoreline) is almost ALWAYS a horrible idea, for the reason that a bullet may end up missing the target and hitting a house, person, etc. Never do that!!

[fatlazyless]

Laconia has a full time, paid, fire department as opposed to a volunteer, on-call, dept. Guys at firestations usually have lots of time with not a whole lot to do, except preparation on their award-winning, firehouse chili. Thanks to wide use of smoke detectors, the number of fires, and calls to the firehouse is way down.

So, probably these guys were very gung-ho to get out on the thin ice and put all their ice-rescue skills and equipment to practice.

Basically, a practice drill with a deer would be a lot less intense than a real drill with a child.....and some adults.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

Dave R,

Since you aren't a hunter and don't own a gun, I'll let you off the hook. Firing any gun onto the ice (and toward the opposite shoreline) is almost ALWAYS a horrible idea, for the reason that a bullet may end up missing the target and hitting a house, person, etc. Never do that!!

Good point, hadn't thought of that.

[scubajay1153]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Laconia has a full time, paid, fire department as opposed to a volunteer, on-call, dept. Guys at firestations usually have lots of time with not a whole lot to do, except preparation on their award-winning, firehouse chili. Thanks to wide use of smoke detectors, the number of fires, and calls to the firehouse is way down.

So, probably these guys were very gung-ho to get out on the thin ice and put all their ice-rescue skills and equipment to practice.

Basically, a practice drill with a deer would be a lot less intense than a real drill with a child.....and some adults.

Well, at first I (a Laconia Firefighter) was sitting here with my jaw hanging and then I decided to reply. First of all we do not have "lots of time with not a whole lot to do". We do more training, inspections, equipment maintenance and responding to fire calls then any other fire department in the state then any department our size. And our call volume has risen from 2700 calls a year when I was hired in 2001 to over 3700 this year with the addition of only ONE person per shift. We also practice our water and ice rescue skills MONTHLY if not more frequently and not just when Bambi takes a tumble. Please get informed before you spout off incorrect information or demean or belittle those of us who do a job most people wouldn't dare do or want to be part of.

[Coolbreeze]

Scuba, My jaw was also left hanging by fatlazyness' comments. It is always interesting to hear comments about what people think firefighters do on our tours when the wheels aren't turning. But when the comment comes from a guy with the name of "fatlazyness" it always seems more interesting. (Not to mention the guy has stirred up more "mud" with his comments on this site than others posters.) I can only imagine his name matches his physical and mental condition. Nice thinking with the bambi job and attaboy from preventing any civilian injuries. Stay low and be safe. P.S. Fatalazyness try low cal chili this year!

[fatlazyless]

Here's a letter to the Saturday, Dec 29, Laconia Daily Sun from the Laconia Fire Chief.
......................

Laconia fire chief defends decision to try and rescue deer

LACONIA - Responding to criticism of his decision to rescue a deer stranded on the ice on Paugus Bay on Wednesday, Fire Chief Ken Erickson said yesterday "this was not a hasty decision. We didn't just rush out there."

Erickson said that "we got calls from Long Bay and Weirs Boulevard for at least an hour and some people indicated they might try to rescue it themselves. We decided that before we have to rescue a person, let's get the thing off the ice to prevent an accident." He described the decision as "reluctant."

Erickson said that neither the New Hampshire Fish & Game Department nor the Animal Control unit of the Laconia Police Department were trained or equipped to affect a rescue. "My guys were equipped, protected and trained," he said.

"It's definately not our job," Erickson stressed," but we decided to do it to prevent someone else from trying it." He said that in the past firefighters rescued a dog from the Winnipesaukee River before it was washed over the Avery Dam and plucked another stranded dog from the ice in Lake Opechee.

-Michael Kitch
Laconia Daily Sun
....................................

Practice, practice, practice is what makes a rescue team more effective,
so going out onto the thin ice is very good as preparation for rescuing a child or adult. Most likely, the dead deer will be served up to Laconia Fire Dept people, or Saint Vincent De Paul kitchen or somewhere, and venison is good eating!

It's good to get a response from a Laconia firefighter who really knows the story on the actual LFD work load, and I owe you an apology for under estimating that, I truly do! I know, I read that in Boston the fire calls are way down due to smoke detectors so I figure the same must be true in Laconia.

As far as you doing a job that most others would not want to do, or be a part of, I respectfully disagree. In Laconia and central and northern NH, the middle class is taking a serious beating. Goodbye Molex manufactoring in Gilford. Goodbye LW Packard woolen mill in Ashland. Goodbye Annalee doll factory in Meredith. Most recently, goodbye Customized Structure modular homes in Claremont. And, as of tomorrow Dec 31, goodbye to 303 $16-22 dollar jobs, $18.64 average, +ot, at the Wausau paper mill, up north in Groveton. After 103 years of operation, the mill is closing.

How many of these goodbye-to-their-good-job people do you think would want to have a firefighter's job with its' good pay, health & dental insurance, pension, workers comp & job security?

In central New Hampshire getting a job working for a city or town is a very good deal.

Having said that, I know that if the smoke alarm goes off at 3am some frigid winter night, the Laconia Fire Dept would be right there, backing up the Meredith Fire Dept, and a house on fire is definately very destructive!

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

...hey , if you want a story with a very happy ending, then go to the 'Proposed Law' thread in the Speed Limits section and look at all the photos in the ,www.lwsa.org, local kid's community sailing program...and just maybe you will be inclined to make a small donation to help build a new community sailing facility at Ellacoya State Park on Lake Winnipesaukee. At any rate, it's an interesting thread...

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by Dave R

I certainly would not enjoy watching the deer struggle, but I think a well-placed 30-06 round, fired from the safety of shore, would have been a better choice than to risk human life to relocate a dying deer from the ice to the shore. I imagine the deer in question did not see the approaching rescuers as saviors; more likely they added to the shock since the poor thing probably thought they were coming to eat it. Its last moments alive were probably just awful.

I'm not a hunter and don't own a gun, if it matters.

Dave, You are exactly right. Anytime an animal is stuck out on the ice like that it is mother nature playing her game. The proof is in the pudding, the deer died regardless of the efforts. Nature is a vicious thing, and we as humans have to learn that not every animal is meant to be recued.

Originally Posted by Winnipesaukee

Dave R,

Since you aren't a hunter and don't own a gun, I'll let you off the hook. Firing any gun onto the ice (and toward the opposite shoreline) is almost ALWAYS a horrible idea, for the reason that a bullet may end up missing the target and hitting a house, person, etc. Never do that!!

Winnipesaukee, you are exactly correct as well. That is way we have sharp shooters. At a minimum a sharp shooter / SWAT officer from the NH state police should be available, that could come and take the dear out. Even though you can never take the risk completely away of a ricochet shot, if a sharp shooter was taking the shot, I would be willing to stand on the other side of the bay.

In short your average Joe, shouldn't attempt to make a shot like that to put the deer out of it suffering. But if a qualified marksman is available I would prefer to see it done over sending humans out onto the ice. Going out for a kid or an adult person is one thing, and I am glad there are people willing to do it. But going after a wild animal is something that the Fire dept. should never feel like they are being forced into doing, expecially when they feel the ice is not safe enough.

[jeffk]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Winnipesaukee, you are exactly correct as well. That is way we have sharp shooters. At a minimum a sharp shooter / SWAT officer from the NH state police should be available, that could come and take the dear out.

Can you imagine the outcry of a public official gunning down Bambi? Photos at 11 and in the morning paper!

And what would be the reaction the next time an animal gets trapped? People would figure "They just shot it the last time so I'll "rescue" it myself! And then the Fire Department would be fishing someone out of the lake, hopefully still alive. Just what they didn't want to happen.

We don't like to see pain and suffering up close and we don't want to get our hands dirty. We call animal control to take away a troublesome varmint. We don't want to think about the fact that many of them get "euthanized". We tolerate hunting because most of us never have to see the results of it. Nature can be vicious and harsh but all the images that we see of it only want to portray the beauty and so that's how we think about it, as a pristine wonderland where beautiful creatures live an idyllic life.

Shotting the animal to put it out if its misery might be the realistic way to handle it but not the PC way. The Fire Chief can talk all he wants about it not being their responsibility but he doesn't have much choice in the end.

[Mr. V]

That would have been a perfect opportunity to use a hovercraft.

[Winnipesaukee]

Winnipesaukee, you are exactly correct as well. That is way we have sharp shooters. At a minimum a sharp shooter / SWAT officer from the NH state police should be available, that could come and take the dear out. Even though you can never take the risk completely away of a ricochet shot...

Absolutely not. Any "qualified marksman" worth his salt would know to NEVER shoot in the direction of people.

if a sharp shooter was taking the shot, I would be willing to stand on the other side of the bay.

I wouldn't.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin

Winnipesaukee, you are exactly correct as well. That is way we have sharp shooters. At a minimum a sharp shooter / SWAT officer from the NH state police should be available, that could come and take the dear out. Even though you can never take the risk completely away of a ricochet shot, if a sharp shooter was taking the shot, I would be willing to stand on the other side of the bay.

You have got to be kidding me... A sharp shooter??? Sounds like a great solution to me... Have fun standing on the other side of the lake downwind of the shooter. I will draw you a big bullseye to hold and ask that you name me in your life insurance policy. JeffK was right, can you imagine the media coverage on that one? There would be outcry's from the community for sure, not to mention animal rights organizations.

I think that Laconia FD made the right call, someone may have been stupid enough to try to play hero and put themselves in danger, or inadvertantly their rescuers. I am sure that if a person had gone through the reaction time of the rescuers would be much more hasty, which could have rushed decisions/planning and put a rescuer at risk. Not to belittle Bambi's life, but I am sure that the rescuers took enough time to make sure they were as prepared and protected as possible before attempting the rescue. The planning according to the Chief was "slow and methodical".

One think that puzzles me is that Fish and Game stated that they were not prepared to handle this type of situation. If so, then what is that shiny airboat of theirs to be used for??? They may not have been able to get it there in time to save the deer but stating that they are not equipped for it is incorrect. If the deer had not actually broken through yet and was floundering around on slippery ice the airboat may have gotten there in time. I think Tuftonboro has one as well. I do agree somewhat that a real-life situation as this could be good for added training.

http://townelineproductions.com/Yank...ats/Enter.html

[OFD232]

Ok after reading the the stories and responses, I have to say I agree whole heartedly with the fire fighters and their reluctance to rush out to save a deer. Now having been a cop for 30 years we always said that it was tough to get them out of their lazy boy rockers or break up a firehouse meal. However they do a job that I would never want to do. When smoke and fire are coming out of a building and everyone else is running in circles and screaming along come the fire fighters in their big trucks and put out the fire. They do not ever get paid enough in my book to do it.
In this case while I generally like animals and do not want to see them suffer I am not so sure I want the fire department out their practicing water rescues on them. First of all they are taking a resource that could be needed else where like a real fire or rescue trying to save an animal. Secondly drills and "live exercises" like this can be dangerous too. If I am not mistaken didn't one of the local fire departments lose an officer fairly recently in a under the ice recovery drill. For the record good call on not wanting to do it and kudos for doing it before someone decided to do their imitation of rescue rangers.
Now as for shooting it, I can just see the national media responding to the scene. First question for the Police chief or commander would have been " Chief was the deer armed when your officers gunned it down?" and next would have been "Chief could your officers have gotten the deers family to try to talk him out of this suicide attempt before he committed suicide by cop.
Folks love the lakes, have nothing but respect for firefighters and other agencies involved so lets remember this was a deer. I for one do not want police, fire, or other agencies endangering themselves or using resources that maybe needed elsewhere in a hurry to save a person.
Having had my rant I wish you all a happy New Year and cant wait for ICE OUT and Spring

[Coolbreeze]

The right decision was made. Remember one important thing...it was a animal, just an animal. It sounds coldhearted but an animal is not worth dying for. A calculated and safe salvage operation was made and the problem was resolved. The slightest chances of the bullet missing its target and going down range potentiallycausing harm is not worth the risk of squeesing off the round, let alone the mercy shot it was intended for. It was a animal for goodness sake. The chief wasn't saving the animal to get a gold star from PETA, he was doing it to prevent any other emotionally charged person from making what was a sad natural act of nature into a traumatic loss of a human life. When a potential civilian rescuer(s) becomes a victim itmake a situation that much more traumatic.
In some cases of Fish and Game, they have policies regarding such occurances. I'd be interested in seeing what their efforts would be according to policy.

[fatlazyless]

Hey codeman, that company, Yankee Airboats of Maine with the airboat photo is the one that made the 15' airboat that is the primary defendant in the nation's first water rescue where the rescuers and their rescue equipment was the cause of a death, It was in August 2006, in the death of 60-something year old Virginia 'Ginny ' Yates of Vermont.

She had slipped on a dock, or something, and injured her ankle and was being transported by the Cheshire NH rescue crew across the Conneticutt River from Vermont to New Hampshire. Hey, that's the last time she'll visit New Hampshire! (Sorry, couldn't resist that fat comment!)

Yankee Airboats is also sueing the Town of Cornish NH and their rescue squad because, while using a 15' airboat, the Cornish rescue squad turned an injured or sprained ankle into a drowning when they secured the stokes litter holding Mrs Yates to the bow of their 15' Yankee Airboat and the boat got swamped, or something..The rescue squad was reported to be very upset over having killed her, as this was definately not their intention. An article in the Rutland Herald says that these airboats do not come standard with seatbelts just in case they swamp.

It's pretty amazing that one person can get drowned in like 15 seconds in the summer, and some other person can hold their breath for two minutes and survive a plunge ino icy cold water when a car skids into a lake, or something. ...lots of variables!

[Coolbreeze]

Ftl, I hope you have a great New Year in 2008.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Hey codeman, that company, Yankee Airboats of Maine with the airboat photo is the one that made the 15' airboat that is the primary defendant in the nation's first water rescue where the rescuers and their rescue equipment was the cause of a death, It was in August 2006, in the death of 60-something year old Virginia 'Ginny ' Yates of Vermont.

She had slipped on a dock, or something, and injured her ankle and was being transported by the Cheshire NH rescue crew across the Conneticutt River from Vermont to New Hampshire. Hey, that's the last time she'll visit New Hampshire! (Sorry, couldn't resist that fat comment!)

Yankee Airboats is also sueing the Town of Cornish NH and their rescue squad because, while using a 15' airboat, the Cornish rescue squad turned an injured or sprained ankle into a drowning when they secured the stokes litter holding Mrs Yates to the bow of their 15' Yankee Airboat and the boat got swamped, or something..The rescue squad was reported to be very upset over having killed her, as this was definately not their intention. An article in the Rutland Herald says that these airboats do not come standard with seatbelts just in case they swamp.

Yes, I knew it was the same company. The Cornish FD was clearly at fault, not Yankee. The stokes should not have been secured to the boat for this same reason. Even beyond that, a 15' airboat is too small for this type of work, especially with the load they were carrying. Too much bow loaded weight= submarine. A 15' boat does not have much deck space by the time you bolt a motor to it and an operator station. They should have been in an 18'-22' boat with a wider beam. Being properly equipped for a situation is half the battle, the other half being properly trained. The Cornish FD obviously had neither, an experienced operator would have realized the dangers of their actions before it went too far. In this case Mrs. Yates was the ultimate victim, with Yankee getting a bad rap when I don't think it was necessarily Harold's fault.

[LIforrelaxin]

Originally Posted by jeffk

.

Shotting the animal to put it out if its misery might be the realistic way to handle it but not the PC way. The Fire Chief can talk all he wants about it not being their responsibility but he doesn't have much choice in the end.

Always worrying about the Politically correct way is what is wrong in todays society. I am not saying PCness doesn't have it place in the world. But when it comes to nature, people have to learn to let it takes it course. I hate seeing animals suffer as much as the next guy, but I also accept that nature has to weed out the week in order for the strong to survive. When people get concerned for animals the need to think about one thing, are the saving the animal for thier peace of mind or the animals.......

And the fire Chief is right it isn't thier responsiblity, it is a Fish and Game issue......and they should have the equipment to deal with it.... but that will bring about a political debate so I won't go any further.

and someone brought up proper equipment, it would be nice for every town to have an airboat, I think they are great, and Codeman has done an excellent job educating us all about them. But with a wild animal it would still require a tranquilizer...... interesting thought, not knowing what a properly equiped rescue air boat would cost, but isn't this something possibly towns around the lake should consider getting a few of by pooling money and having them at strategic parts of the lake. Or would this one of those neat and novel perfect world ideas but too politically Slopy ?

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by OFD232

I for one do not want police, fire, or other agencies endangering themselves or using resources that maybe needed elsewhere in a hurry to save a person.

You took the words right out of my mouth OFD. I'm not second guessing the decision, I didn't have to make it, but I can't imagine 500 years ago a group of Native Americans standing around debating about how to save the poor deer.

I would also like to know how much this little endeavor cost me in tax dollars, never mind what it will cost me to have an airboat and a sharp shooter ready for a repeat. My opinion is if someone was brave enough to go out and try and save the deer they are on their own. I know, I know, thats an unpopular opinion. But as an avid ice fisher person who spends a lot of the winter out on the lake with the family I do not expect the fire department to come to my rescue should someone go through, and neither should the deer.

[Coolbreeze]

Weirsguy,
You aren't getting the point of the real reason why they went after the deer. It was to prevent untrianed civilians from trying to do it themselves and falling victim to their emotions resulting in them becoming victims rather than rescuers.. If it were any other secluded place on the lake where people weren't actually witnessing the struggle of life that the deer was in, we would not even be talking about it right now. This wasn't the case, that day at the scene civilians spoke loudly that if the authorities didn't do something that they themselves would. Yes the fire company would come to your aid if you went through the ice. Why, becuase you are a human being and the FD is sworn to protect you and your family regardless of what risks you took going on the ice.

[upthesaukee]

Coolbreeze...absolutely correct. in the last year or so, I think it was DRH and Quilt Lady that talked about a bald eagle feeding on a deer on the ice around Sleepers or that general location. That deer probably fell prey to the same type of conditions, but not being in sight of many people, died a similar death. Hats off to LFD for keeping it safe for well meaning people, while trying to save an animal. (if it was someone's dog or cat, most people would be praising them as well). At least they tried, and were prepared for worst case scenarios for themselves.

[Lin]

Originally Posted by Weirs guy

You took the words right out of my mouth OFD. I'm not second guessing the decision, I didn't have to make it, but I can't imagine 500 years ago a group of Native Americans standing around debating about how to save the poor deer.

I would also like to know how much this little endeavor cost me in tax dollars, never mind what it will cost me to have an airboat and a sharp shooter ready for a repeat. My opinion is if someone was brave enough to go out and try and save the deer they are on their own. I know, I know, thats an unpopular opinion. But as an avid ice fisher person who spends a lot of the winter out on the lake with the family I do not expect the fire department to come to my rescue should someone go through, and neither should the deer.

That's the problem, should you or another ice fisherman fall through the ice, you would want them to come to your rescue but if someone sees you go through the ice who is the first person they call? the fire department. That is why fire depts train all the time for ice rescues. More people drown falling through the ice from rescuing pets than the pet itself. I've just finished taking photos of our fire department doing ice rescue training. It's hard work but they are a dedicated bunch to their profession. Even if one is driving by a lake and they see someone that has fallen through the ice, they should call 911 rather than attempt to rescue the person theirselves. The rescuer can become the victim. We always drive with a blanket and a throw rope/bouy in the back of the truck as our town is one third reservoir with a few rivers but I'd never attempt to go over the ice myself without the proper equipment and training.

[Weirs guy]

Originally Posted by Coolbreeze

Weirsguy,
You aren't getting the point of the real reason why they went after the deer. It was to prevent untrianed civilians from trying to do it themselves and falling victim to their emotions resulting in them becoming victims rather than rescuers.. If it were any other secluded place on the lake where people weren't actually witnessing the struggle of life that the deer was in, we would not even be talking about it right now. This wasn't the case, that day at the scene civilians spoke loudly that if the authorities didn't do something that they themselves would. Yes the fire company would come to your aid if you went through the ice. Why, becuase you are a human being and the FD is sworn to protect you and your family regardless of what risks you took going on the ice.

I think you've missed my point. In my opinion it was a waste of resources that was driven by the emotions of several people who might have tried to save the animal themselves (I know they said they would, but thin ice has a way of changing peoples minds when push comes to shove).

Had a little boy or girl gone through the ice over at Opechee while the LFD was saving a deer on Paugus Bay, would you still feel this way?

I appreciate what the fire department does. They are willing to place their lives on the line to save someone else and do not need to be asked, begged or ordered to. Thats what they do. But again, in my opinion, if I have assumed the risk of going out on the ice, especialy to save an animal that clearly had issues with said ice, I'm sure not going to wait around for someone to come pluck me out should I have an issue.

[Mashugana]

Originally Posted by Lin

I would not recommend a person going out on the ice to rescue your pet or an animal without proper clothing, ropes and training. It's a tough decision but safety should be utmost on the mind in this situation.

You are right Lin and your observations accurate IMHO. The FD did the right thing.

Sure you want the right training and equipment to do an ice rescue. If it were my dog in trouble I'd do whatever I could to help. Just like the people you've seen. A family pet is part of the family. A wild deer is not.

Given the situation the FD did the right thing here.

They are all under appreciated.

[scubajay1153]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

As far as you doing a job that most others would not want to do, or be a part of, I respectfully disagree. In Laconia and central and northern NH, the middle class is taking a serious beating. Goodbye Molex manufactoring in Gilford. Goodbye LW Packard woolen mill in Ashland. Goodbye Annalee doll factory in Meredith. Most recently, goodbye Customized Structure modular homes in Claremont. And, as of tomorrow Dec 31, goodbye to 303 $16-22 dollar jobs, $18.64 average, +ot, at the Wausau paper mill, up north in Groveton. After 103 years of operation, the mill is closing.

How many of these goodbye-to-their-good-job people do you think would want to have a firefighter's job with its' good pay, health & dental insurance, pension, workers comp & job security?...

Obviously you missed my point entirely. DO you honestly think any of those people is remotely qualified to do our job? Desire and need, yes. Trainined and have the "stomach", No. And not one person (fire, police, etc.)is provided dental insurance by the city and I think if you compared our benefits to other cities job for job you would find out some differences not to mention that the state has revealed that by their own mismanagement our pension system is only 60% funded and that they are considering making us pay even more to cover THEIR short fall and they want to remove our health care stipend as well. But that is another totally different ball of wax to debate somewhere else. The info is out there if you dig....

And Weirs Guy, for your information other emergency calls happened during the " deer rescue" (including sending ambulances to Gunstock for injured skiers) and were handled in a timely and appropriate fashion by not only the onduty staff of the LFD but by some off duty members also who had been called in to cover the stations as multiple calls were ongoing.

OFD We were the fire department (LFD)that lost a firefighter during an ice dive.It was march 11, 2004 and his name was Mark Miller. He was not only a coworker but a friend and dive buddy.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, feelings and thoughts. THat is what is great about this country. I just wish people would find out the facts, or at the very least ASK before they make bold statements or spout conjecture that has no basis.

If someone had gone in the drink going after the deer we would have been sniped at also. It its a no win situation I guess. You can please all of the people some of the time or none of them all of the time....it's a rough crowd...

And as one of the highest trained water and ice rescue people on the department I will tell you Weirs GUy, that even tho' you don't expect to have us come get you if you fall in rest assured that I will still do mybest (as will all of us here) to make sure that if you go in that you feel our arms around you and hear us telling you we got you and it will be OK as we drag you out. And I may even smile for you....maybe :P

[fatlazyless]

Hey ScubaJay, as a chronic underachiever and member of the waterfront poor, I could easily do your job with one hand tied behind my back while I'm upside-down and backwards, and you'd never be able to keep up with me. Plus, I have a cdl-a w/ hazmat-tanker-airbrakes so's I could drive the fire engine right from the start, too. So there....ha-ha-ha! Whoops, only kidding. If I saw one firecall at 2am on a cold winter night, I know I would crawl back into my la-z-boy recliner.......more power to you.....way to go.... Laconia Fire Dept & the lakes region.

[Weirs guy]

scubajay1153, first and foremost I appreciate what you do and the risks you take, and as I stated before I'm not second guessing the decision to do this as I wasn't there and its not my call. I also know you all will be coming to help should I go through, but if you don't mind I may not wait for you. My point with the "what if someone went through at Opechee" wasn't that the LFD couldn't handle other calls during this rescue, but could you have handled another ice rescue?

My point in all this is the same point I have with sleds that skim open water and drunk drivers. If someone makes a stupid decision to do something that the majority of people see as an extremely dangerous thing, then I have very little interest in risking others lives and wasting resources to save them. Again, I'm not second guessing this call, it wasn't mine. I just don't want to hear anyone praise this decision and then complain about what a waste of taxpayers dollars a $50K air conditioned dog cage was for the M'boro PD's pooch.

[OFD232]

Originally Posted by scubajay1153

Obviously you missed my point entirely. DO you honestly think any of those people is remotely qualified to do our job? Desire and need, yes. Trainined and have the "stomach", No. And not one person (fire, police, etc.)is provided dental insurance by the city and I think if you compared our benefits to other cities job for job you would find out some differences not to mention that the state has revealed that by their own mismanagement our pension system is only 60% funded and that they are considering making us pay even more to cover THEIR short fall and they want to remove our health care stipend as well. But that is another totally different ball of wax to debate somewhere else. The info is out there if you dig....

And Weirs Guy, for your information other emergency calls happened during the " deer rescue" (including sending ambulances to Gunstock for injured skiers) and were handled in a timely and appropriate fashion by not only the onduty staff of the LFD but by some off duty members also who had been called in to cover the stations as multiple calls were ongoing.

OFD We were the fire department (LFD)that lost a firefighter during an ice dive.It was march 11, 2004 and his name was Mark Miller. He was not only a coworker but a friend and dive buddy.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, feelings and thoughts. THat is what is great about this country. I just wish people would find out the facts, or at the very least ASK before they make bold statements or spout conjecture that has no basis.

If someone had gone in the drink going after the deer we would have been sniped at also. It its a no win situation I guess. You can please all of the people some of the time or none of them all of the time....it's a rough crowd...

And as one of the highest trained water and ice rescue people on the department I will tell you Weirs GUy, that even tho' you don't expect to have us come get you if you fall in rest assured that I will still do mybest (as will all of us here) to make sure that if you go in that you feel our arms around you and hear us telling you we got you and it will be OK as we drag you out. And I may even smile for you....maybe :P

Scubajay, My condolences on the loss of a friend. I have lost a couple too in my time and one was in a training accident so called. It is not something you forget as you well know. I hate the thought of some Public safety personnel getting hurt or worse because of the someone's irrational act over a animal. The point is I know you have to do what you got to do to protect people inspite of their being HUA but I do not have to like it. Anyway Keep the faith and stay safe in the coming years.