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View Poll Results: Speed limit - If you had to choose, which would it be???
No Speed Limit Law 325 74.37%
Current Law - 45 Day 25 Night 112 25.63%
Voters: 437. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-07-2009, 10:11 AM   #101
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Default Yesterday

I hit 50 mph drafting ELChase's sailboat out on the Broads yesterday! LOL!

'BIG LAKE HORROR! GFBL CHASES SAILBOAT!' - TaDaSun
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Old 09-07-2009, 12:01 PM   #102
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Default Heading back out in a few

It really has been a fabulous weekend for slow cruising so we will be back at it in Moultonborough Bay over to Lee's Mills this afternoon, so if you see us come by and say hi!

OCD, if you want to go slow, you can always hook up with us!
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Old 09-07-2009, 12:06 PM   #103
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It really has been a fabulous weekend for slow cruising so we will be back at it in Moultonborough Bay over to Lee's Mills this afternoon, so if you see us come by and say hi!

OCD, if you want to go slow, you can always hook up with us!
VERY NICE PIC!!! I may take you up on that someday.. I am actually working all day today.. Saving up for the engine, paint job and some really cool upgrades... (Stay tuned for details)

Really appreciate the offer though..

You will be going right by my house. Will tell my parents to wave.

Just for the record. I LOVE going slow. I have a pontoon boat and a fishing boat (both of which can not go over 45 mph)

I just don't like being told that by exceeding that will put people in danger etc etc... I don't need to go down the list of reasons for they have been beaten to death.

Happy boating.. Enjoy!
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Old 09-07-2009, 03:27 PM   #104
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As Howie Carr would say "Of course you don't". And of course the rest of your GFBL buddies on this forum don't. And smokers are united in the belief that the laws against smoking in restaurants have not done a thing to make dining more enjoyable. And junkies are united in the belief that drug laws have been useless. And illegal aliens are united in the belief that border security is a waste of time. If we let the offenders decide which laws to keep on the books, we'd have lawless bedlam. That's why we don't let prisoners vote.
But the bottom line is that the people who fought so hard for this law are very happy with it and want it kept and the cowboys it was aimed to slow down are very unhappy with it...and that says it all. The more you guys complain about the law, the more you show how effective it has been. If this law had done nothing, then you guys would be out buzzing around the lake instead of spending your days on this forum complaining about it.
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Old 09-07-2009, 05:33 PM   #105
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Since there are people saying that there are fewer GFBLs on the lake, people are saying the lake is safer. It is pretty obvious what the goal of the speed limit was.

Next will be the cruisers.

After that will be PWCs.

What can they ban next?
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Old 09-07-2009, 08:42 PM   #106
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Since there are people saying that there are fewer GFBLs on the lake, people are saying the lake is safer. It is pretty obvious what the goal of the speed limit was.

Next will be the cruisers.

After that will be PWCs.

What can they ban next?
Chip and all others,

It has been very clear to me for two years now that the pro speed limit minority have no real interest in safe boating. Their only objective is to restrict certain boats from the lake. They are all over GFBL boats now. If they win this battle, the PWC or cruisers will definately be next.

For the record, I have a bow rider that tops out at 47 MPH, but I have never gone over 40 MPH on Winnipesaukee. So, although I am completely opposed to the speed limit, I am not a GFBL boater. I respect the rights of all safe boaters and I respect freedom. Freedom is what this country was built on!

The Speed Limit push was not at all about safe boating. The Speed Limit proponents have a hidden agenda to remove certain type water craft from the lake. I used to go the the WinnFabs meetings when I was trying to decide were I was on this issue. It became very clear to me that their real objective was not at all about boating education and boating safety, but it was all about removing certain boats from the lake. Reading their posts on this forum, that becomes very clear.

To me, the proponent's actions are extremely un-American and their agenda has fooled the law makers of a great state with the motto "Live Free or Die". This is so hard to believe, but that is what has happened.

We, as one family, have decide to sell our water-front place on the lake and move on if this law becomes permanent. We want to live where freedom rings! We choose not to live with people who's only purpose is to restrict the rights of those they do not like.

That is clearly what is happening here and this has to be stopped.

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Old 09-08-2009, 09:18 AM   #107
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Freedom is what this country was built on!
I agree (though some who were forced to come to this country in chains in the holds of wooden sailing ships might not).
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To me, the proponent's actions are extremely un-American and their agenda has fooled the law makers of a great state with the motto "Live Free or Die". This is so hard to believe, but that is what has happened.
I don't think I follow what is so "un-American" about people who get together to use the state's legislative process to stop a small group of people who have hijacked and otherwise monopolized the lake. Doesn't seem all that different from the process people would use to stop any other behavior where the public benefit is at stake, say like legislating against dogs doing their business in the town park.
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We, as one family, have decide to sell our water-front place on the lake and move on if this law becomes permanent. We want to live where freedom rings! We choose not to live with people who's only purpose is to restrict the rights of those they do not like.


"Where freedom rings"? Sounds like your definition of freedom means being able to do whatever you want, whenever you want, regardless of other's rights. When you sell your water-front place, have you considered Somalia as a place that might meet your criteria?
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:34 AM   #108
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We, as one family, have decide to sell our water-front place on the lake and move on if this law becomes permanent.
This news elicits SEVEN Thank You's from your "friends"? Rather than try to enlighten you to the unreasonable extremity of your decision and try to convince you to reconsider, they are willing to let you jump on a grenade and are happy to sacrifice you for this noble cause with nothing but a "thank you for this useful post"? Good friends.
It's too bad though, if you really are one of those who boat safely, respect other boaters, and obey our boating laws (all of them), I wish you would reconsider. I would miss sharing the lake with you.

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Old 09-08-2009, 10:22 AM   #109
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This news elicits six Thank You's from your "friends"? Rather than try to enlighten you to the unreasonable extremity of your decision and try to convince you to reconsider, they are willing to let you jump on a grenade and are happy to sacrifice you for this noble cause with nothing but a "thank you for this useful post"? Good friends.
It's too bad though, if you really are one of those who boat safely, respect other boaters, and obey our boating laws (all of them), I wish you would reconsider. I would miss sharing the lake with you.
I do not think the thanks were for the last statement alone! They were for the total note that was painted by the posting. I do not like the idea that it takes laws to run and govern the lives of everyone. This is not a right vs left political issue in my mind. This is about control and ownership. This thread was to get a count of people for or against the current law. I am against it. Not a personal swipe at others opinions.

You are reading way to much between the lines of a simple "Thanks" for this posting! It does show how easy it is to jump to conclusions though.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:22 AM   #110
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This news elicits six Thank You's from your "friends"? Rather than try to enlighten you to the unreasonable extremity of your decision and try to convince you to reconsider, they are willing to let you jump on a grenade and are happy to sacrifice you for this noble cause with nothing but a "thank you for this useful post"? Good friends.
It's too bad though, if you really are one of those who boat safely, respect other boaters, and obey our boating laws (all of them), I wish you would reconsider. I would miss sharing the lake with you.
Perhaps you are misconstruing what the "thank yous" were for. I doubt any of his "friends" are glad to see him leave Winni. Maybe you should read the rest of his post.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:18 AM   #111
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Glad to see everyone had a peaceful Labor Day weekend. I was appalled by what I witnessed this weekend on the water.

No less than seven near misses (two hits), and when I say near misses I mean misses by less than 10 feet.

The highlights:

Boats going 40+ with passengers sitting on the swim platform drinking beer.

Children on boats without PFD.

PWC operators without PFD.

3 women sunbathing on a motor hatch while the boat was on plain. (Sorry no picture).

A cruiser swamped a fishing boat exiting a no-wake zone at less than 15 feet.

A bowrider pulling two tubes with 3 kids in each tube and only the operator in the boat.

Jon Boat fishing in a channel hit by Cigarette boat (impact at no wake, no injury)

2 boats in a NWZ channel less than 10 feet apart doing 35+ with a Marine patrol officer 25 feet away. The officer was checking for milfoil stickers on docked boats and completely ignored the channel race going on behind him. This is what happens when Marine Patrol are instructed to enforce trivial laws that merely increase revenue for the state instead of laws that actually save lives.

These events all happened in Maine. People have referred to Winnipesakee as the “wild wild west”. This is simply not true, check the facts NH is one of the safest states for boating. Better than checking the facts, simply go to another state and watch. Not only is the Marine Patrol far superior to Maine, the boaters are as well. If the events listed above happened on Winni, they would have certainly been stopped by the MP but also I believe many Winni boaters would voice their concerns and explain to these Capt Bonehead Extremes what they were doing wrong. Yes some of the explanations would just be a half peace sign.

I think we should all chip in and send Elchase, APS, Turtleboy and Sunset to Maine for a weekend. Maybe when they came back their fears and concerns would be put into perspective.
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Old 09-08-2009, 12:57 PM   #112
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These events all happenedI think we should all chip in and send Elchase, APS, Turtleboy and Sunset to Maine for a weekend. Maybe when they came back their fears and concerns would be put into perspective.

I'm waiting for Those Guys ...to weigh in on the WolfeBoro Vintage Raceboat Regatta coming up. OMG. Gotta be Total Mortification. NB

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...&day=2009-9-16
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Old 09-08-2009, 06:43 PM   #113
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This news elicits six Thank You's from your "friends"? Rather than try to enlighten you to the unreasonable extremity of your decision and try to convince you to reconsider, they are willing to let you jump on a grenade and are happy to sacrifice you for this noble cause with nothing but a "thank you for this useful post"? Good friends.
It's too bad though, if you really are one of those who boat safely, respect other boaters, and obey our boating laws (all of them), I wish you would reconsider. I would miss sharing the lake with you.
Make that SEVEN including me. Smart individuals can read the post and thank him for his candor and honesty with regard to the real agendas of the opposition. We don't need you to twist the reason for their Thank You's. Once again elchase strike again, bend, twist, spin. I'm surprised you didn't snip a small section to completely misrepresent the message. I guess there is still time though. You do more for "our side" with every post. Keep up the good work. As it is most of your fellow supporters have distanced themselves from you quite a bit. Hear that? Those are crickets.....
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:57 AM   #114
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As it is most of your fellow supporters have distanced themselves from you quite a bit. Hear that? Those are crickets.....
well, could always get more screen names
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:53 AM   #115
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You are reading way to much between the lines of a simple "Thanks" for this posting! It does show how easy it is to jump to conclusions though.
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Perhaps you are misconstruing what the "thank yous" were for.
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Smart individuals can read the post and thank him for his candor and honesty
If my "friend" announced he was moving away because of a law that he said does not apply to him anyway and is not doing anything, I'd give it more that a one-touch "Thank you". Your good buddy announced he is selling his home and moving away, and you guys never even made an attempt to discourage him or told him you'd miss him. Good friends.

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These events all happened in Maine.
No non-Winnipesaukee stuff. Read the rules.

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well, could always get more screen names
No razzing. Read the rules.


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How's that bomb shelter coming?
 
Old 09-09-2009, 09:06 AM   #116
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Default 4302 members

On Winnipesaukee.com. I'm assuming maybe a quarter are active.

182 voted 'No speed limit'

67 voted '45 and 25'

My quess is the rest want some kind of speed limit but not 45/25.

This really make sense as there is no evidence that speed have to be limited to 45 or speed have to be limited to 25. I google for any backup to these numbers and fail to see any. Just because they use these numbers in other states does not mean it should apply in this state. Same to motorcycle helmets law and seat belt law.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:09 AM   #117
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Default are you serious elchase?

I have been reading the forum for a long time and have never seen anyone so capable in the art of goading people to get off topic. You are an expert at it elchase.

As I pointed out before I am against the speed limit. I am not sure where you let your perspectives come from but it not even close to talking about the speed law issue.

Please stop the carving of everyones posts and placing judgement on single words like "Thanks"!

Notice the lack of a smile.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:13 AM   #118
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If my "friend" announced he was moving away because of a law that he said does not apply to him anyway and is not doing anything, I'd give it more that a one-touch "Thank you". Your good buddy announced he is selling his home and moving away, and you guys never even made an attempt to discourage him or told him you'd miss him. Good friends.




How's that bomb shelter coming?
Sorry I don't know how to do multi post like EL.. Wow for someone who just started here you are very very good at it. It's amazing how much one can pick up from the sidelines....

but:

How do you know we aren't talking to him outside of the forum. Private messages are available. no need to speculate.


Bomb Shelter??? HUH???
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:28 AM   #119
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Please accept my sincere apologies for talking about another lake. I was completely unaware that the rules of this forum forbid references to waterways outside the New Hampshire boarder. I understand ignorance of the rules is not an excuse for breaking them and accept full responsibility for my actions. I should never use facts to try to compare and contrast when attempting to make a point. From this time forward I will just state my point of view without providing facts or examples. I guess this way of thinking may qualify me for a Czar position in the current administration.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:32 AM   #120
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Please accept my sincere apologies for talking about another lake. I was completely unaware that the rules of this forum forbid references to waterways outside the New Hampshire boarder. I understand ignorance of the rules is not an excuse for breaking them and accept full responsibility for my actions. I should never use facts to try to compare and contrast when attempting to make a point. From this time forward I will just state my point of view without providing facts or examples. I guess this way of thinking may qualify me for a Czar position in the current administration.
you know what is ironic. when Sunset posted about michigan laws and someone asked that same question, sunset posted a similar response. back around post #90. I thought sunset was correct but I didn't see EL getting all upset when he did it... Guess the door only swings one way....
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:33 AM   #121
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How's that bomb shelter coming?
Thought this forum is Winnipesaukee related?
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:38 AM   #122
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Thought this forum is Winnipesaukee related?
Agreed... Again we should focus on the poll itself.

The numbers don't lie. I have counted up the people posting on this thread and you are really looking at a dozen people. That is a far cry from the overwhelming go fast crowd then the number of people who have voted..

#'s don't lie.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:08 AM   #123
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Just went over the MP log today at Glendale. This incident is not logged in.
I am the BIL to APS. He describes me as the "Maytag Man", which I was until lasst year. Having the closer bedroom, we overheard the late night MP discussion and the speedboat. Which awoke everybody. APS previous description of the Marine Patrol stop is exact. He is checking with the Sergeant on duty at the time and should know in the next day or two if a summons was issued. We can confirm the stop exactly as he described here.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:38 AM   #124
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Just went over the MP log today at Glendale. This incident is not logged in.
Originally posted by Neanderthal Thunder
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I am the BIL to APS. He describes me as the "Maytag Man", which I was until lasst year. Having the closer bedroom, we overheard the late night MP discussion and the speedboat. Which awoke everybody. APS previous description of the Marine Patrol stop is exact. He is checking with the Sergeant on duty at the time and should know in the next day or two if a summons was issued. We can confirm the stop exactly as he described here
Whether a summons was issued or not the stop would be in the incident log at Glendale if it actually occurred.

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Old 09-09-2009, 02:56 PM   #125
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The Sergeant that was on duty remembers that MP stop that Friday night, and said "it would definitely be in the computer".

I called back today to find the Sergeant is on vacation. However, I'll be checking back in about a week. The Sergeant has good reason to be attentive to this matter.

As to OCD's "3000-RPM blow-up", There are two boats I can give by name who also switch while running. The offender's boat is a Cris Craft. (Who left after Labor Day Weekend).

Why a visitor has to offend so many people, make so much noise and break laws relating to late-night behavior on our waters, I don't know.

Maybe he didn't have any firecrackers. (Which are illegal to use in Wolfeboro).
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:30 PM   #126
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And again...blah, blah, blah..so let's turn this into a class warfare issue. As if the GFBL boats don't cost a small fortune (though I hear the used ones are now a bit cheaper), not to mention the GFBL's that we see parked in front of lakefront homes. As mentioned earlier, people come here for peaceful recreation, and the owners of the lake, including non waterfront owners, swimmers, kayakers, sailors, people who live near the lake who don't don't enjoy all the benefits of lakeside living but still have to endure the noise all have a stake here. Sorry, but speed limits are here to stay.
Just curious but is your support for the SL due more to noise concerns or are you one of the terrified people afraid to venture out on the lake ?
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:41 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac View Post
Just curious but is your support for the SL due more to noise concerns or are you one of the terrified people afraid to venture out on the lake ?
Thats the problem. many speed limit activists use the speed limit as a means to start to pose restrictions on other "issues" they do not like. First step Speed, second cruisers, third above water exhaust, then PWC, then anything with a motor..... They want to bring the lake back to the day that there were no combustable engines anywhere to be seen.. Then they can start on something else..

Some people just have to have something to complain about!
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Old 09-09-2009, 04:49 PM   #128
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Exclamation Danger Will Robinson, Danger

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Originally Posted by Acres per Second View Post
You probably can't conceive that a boat anchor can strike your house at night; or, should your house be located within 120-feet of a lake's shoreline, be struck by the boat itself.

(Consider also, that the boat may have nobody in it!)
Mebbe I should also consider the danger poised by planes dropping from the sky onto me or my camp while at the lake. I recall at least 2 Winni headlines along those lines. (more if we include helicopters and ultralights !) Seems to happen with about the same frequency as your aforementioned boats. Then again I had a Nissan SUV lose control on the road just 8' from my bedroom last month. Seems there's no end of the things to worry about ....


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Originally Posted by Acres per Second View Post
On the eve of a Labor Day Weekend—a weekend when editors will be printing the headlines—there was the expected increase in the number of boats on the lake.

Towards evening, it was reassuring to see that many were traveling at speeds much slower than the required 25-MPH.

Many appear to be discovering the safer and relaxed boating Winnipesaukee experience that decades of residents had enjoyed before excessive speeds became an issue.
And I saw quite a few over the 25 MPH limit this past weekend. I wonder how many of those "discovering" their new boating are also wondering about how the number was scientifically arrived at. Oh wait it wasn't ....
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:09 AM   #129
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Why a visitor has to offend so many people, make so much noise and break laws relating to late-night behavior on our waters, I don't know.
Congratulations on the recent purchase!!!

Can you let me know where I can get a visitors pass to visit YOUR lake?
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:29 AM   #130
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[QUOTE=Acres per Second;105622]
As to OCD's "3000-RPM blow-up", There are two boats I can give by name who also switch while running. The offender's boat is a Cris Craft. (Who left after Labor Day Weekend).

[QUOTE]

I would never claim I know of every after market product out there.. but after discussing this with 2 very reputable manufactorers and owners of the companies, they say they do not know of any for a high performance engine. There may be some for a non-performance models but that is not what I am referring to.

If you could APS, could you get me the name of the type of exhaust, manufactorer, anything??? Even the owners name or number? PM me if you would. I would love to get it. I will still keep my mufflers on but this way I don't bother the family or my infant son when I start the boat in the mornings.

Greatly appreciated. I look forward to your response seriously!
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:36 PM   #131
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Arrow Captains Call

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Originally Posted by Acres per Second View Post
As to OCD's "3000-RPM blow-up", There are two boats I can give by name who also switch while running. The offender's boat is a Cris Craft. (Who left after Labor Day Weekend).
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE View Post
I would never claim I know of every after market product out there.. but after discussing this with 2 very reputable manufactorers and owners of the companies, they say they do not know of any for a high performance engine. There may be some for a non-performance models but that is not what I am referring to.

If you could APS, could you get me the name of the type of exhaust, manufactorer, anything??? Even the owners name or number? PM me if you would. I would love to get it. I will still keep my mufflers on but this way I don't bother the family or my infant son when I start the boat in the mornings.

Greatly appreciated. I look forward to your response seriously!
Well that dastardly well known GFBL manufacturer Chris-Craft .... errrr .... Chris-Craft ? Oh well, C-C has a $2600 option for selectable exhaust which I believe is CORSAs "Captains Call". Maybe someone should tell Trexler's that it's illegal in NH.
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Old 09-10-2009, 12:40 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac View Post
Well that dastardly well known GFBL manufacturer Chris-Craft .... errrr .... Chris-Craft ? Oh well, C-C has a $2600 option for selectable exhaust which I believe is CORSAs "Captains Call". Maybe someone should tell Trexler's that it's illegal in NH.
I've seen those.. and no those are not designed to be switched over 2200 RPM's..

Now whether the person is doing it and causing damage may be another story all together but from my understanding there is no captains call, silient choice, switchable, selective exhaust for a HP engine at speed.

Again I implore APS to provide the manufactorer because I really really really want it...
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:49 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac View Post
Well that dastardly well known GFBL manufacturer Chris-Craft .... errrr .... Chris-Craft ? Oh well, C-C has a $2600 option for selectable exhaust which I believe is CORSAs "Captains Call". Maybe someone should tell Trexler's that it's illegal in NH.
Chris Craft has gone through some ownership changes over the years. But as I remember, the very first Miami Vice boat that Don Johnson drove in that show was a Chris Craft. They are in fact a very old go fast builder. They (whomever bought the brand), make some pretty fantastic looking ships nowadays, and very expensive.

http://www.chriscraft.com/index.php?...ory=SalesEvent


But a noisy boat isn't necessarily a go fast. Many are just 20' to 25 foot family boats that were ordered with outside exhaust.
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:11 AM   #134
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Question I Didn't Vote...

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"...If you could APS, PM me if you would..."
When I find out next week, you'll find out.

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Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE View Post
Thats the problem...First step Speed, second cruisers, third above water exhaust, then PWC..."
Following widespread exhaust noise restrictions, PWC were probably the first watercraft to be legislated off the water—The Feds first, and locally, Wolfeboro's Lake Wentworth.

I don't know of any legislation—worldwide—affecting cruisers.

Quote:
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Chris Craft...They are in fact a very old go fast builder. They (whomever bought the brand), make some pretty fantastic looking ships nowadays, and very expensive..."
I learned yesterday (in addition to the color of the Sunapee kayak, still-more on the Eagle Island collision, and a whole bunch of other stuff) that the offender Friday night was given a "summons" for switchable exhaust. (A "ticket" for the rest of us).

The offender was warned about an arrest for ignoring the blue lights and siren.

The Chris-Craft was a guess on my part, since I saw (and heard) the CC on Saturday and Sunday with his exhaust—both noisy and quiet—on those two days respectively. It wasn't him, but a different visitor just a few doors away.

BTW I: Of one's homes, who here can be struck by a boat or a car? (Or an anchor).

BTW II: Now that our neighborly LAN has left Winnipesaukee for the season, my BIL has to use the Wolfeboro Library for his e-mails, etc.

He informed me that when he went to vote in this thread in favor of the SL, the Library's computer advised,
Quote:
"You have already voted in this poll".
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:50 AM   #135
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Wink Let's Try This...

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Originally Posted by jmen24 View Post
"...Can you let me know where I can get a visitors pass to visit YOUR lake...?"
When I visit your neighborhood, I'm a visitor.

When you visit my neighborhood, you're a visitor.

If you go to the ocean (which is only one hour away), you're not "visiting".
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:43 AM   #136
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When I visit your neighborhood, I'm a visitor.

When you visit my neighborhood, you're a visitor.

If you go to the ocean (which is only one hour away), you're not "visiting".
APS I agree with you.. But I don't understand the ocean comment.

Also just a question.. Would you consider someone driving a boat on the lake that lives on the lake, however not in the bay you live in a visitor to "your" bay or area of the lake?

I think that is where some of the confusion is...

For example, if my friend brings his boat up for the weekend to stay at my house, then I would consider him a visitor to the lake for the weekend.

If the person has property in the lakes region then I would not consider that person a visitor to the lake. That is anywhere on the lake he is not a visitor. Now if he tied up to you dock then he is visiting you but not the lake.

Would you agree?
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:18 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acres per Second View Post

BTW II: Now that our neighborly LAN has left Winnipesaukee for the season, my BIL has to use the Wolfeboro Library for his e-mails, etc.

He informed me that when he went to vote in this thread in favor of the SL, the Library's computer advised,

Translated for the rest of you.

APS's Brother in Law went to use the Wolfeboro Library computer to vote in this poll. When he tried he received a message that said:

"YOU HAVE ALREADY VOTED IN THIS POLL"

Then APS adds these faces :

So he is either

A: Confused that the library computer randomly blocked him
B: Confused because he feels that there is a conspiracy with people going to the Library and logging on to computers to skew the poll
C: Confused that his brother in law wasn't able to accomplish the above said task for his side of the poll
D: All of the above



APS - What is the difference between your Brother-In-Law trying to vote in the poll or another resident of Wolfeboro who used the library computer to vote. Perhaps this person voted the way you would have voted?

If you are confused as to why he got the message you need to understand IP addresses and a bunch of other technical mumbo jumbo. The library likely has a fixed IP and someone at sometime logged onto a computer at the Library and voted. One way or the other mind you. Not necessarily in the affirmative.
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:24 AM   #138
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Default Quick Question

On the switchable exhaust, I can understand why you shouldn't switch beyond a certain rpm. But can you keep them on the quieter setting at any speed, or must you turn them off?


It's a quandry I had when looking at a couple of boats. One dealer said Absolutely Not when I asked him if I could get one with an thru prop exhaust (quiet). I was just asking, not really in a buying mood. I do know that at certain HP, thru hulls are specified.

Having a law against switchables is quite silly, but now I understand that quiet exhaust pipes Can be added after the fact.
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:57 AM   #139
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Default the single most obnoxious statement I have ever read on this forum!

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Originally Posted by sunset on the dock View Post
Speed limits are here to stay and the real owners of the lake won't ever again let it be hijacked by a very loud minority of powerboaters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunset on the dock View Post
and the owners of the lake, including non waterfront owners, swimmers, kayakers, sailors, people who live near the lake who don't don't enjoy all the benefits of lakeside living

WOW, that has to be the single most obnoxious statement I have ever read on this forum! I guess I should say statement(s), as you had the gall to say it TWICE!!!

The concept that lake Winnipesaukee is “OWNED” by some elite group is just appalling and flies in the face of everything AMERICAN.

What is wrong with “you people” that you can even envision something like that,,,

Is this the “New World” mentality???

Its no wonder we have so many idiotic laws passed, it’s the omniscient group mentality that someone knows whats better for EVERYONE, everyone else that is,,,

And either way they don’t really care, as they just want to change the rules to suit their preferences and too bad for anyone else,,,

As for the SL being “here to stay”, god help us all, because all I can think of is whats next,,,
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Old 09-13-2009, 12:22 PM   #140
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Question Lake owners.

The state owns the lake. They are the real lake owners.

As far as waterfront owners. Who are the 'real owners', the ones with the biggest properties? They are the ones with the 'big toys'. Or the ones that have been on the lake longer. If that's the case, my family has been on the lake since 1892. We don't want stupid laws to tell us what to do. We just want people to use COMMON SENSE when they use our waters. I'm beginning to think this is too much to ask?????
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:20 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Acres per Second View Post
When I visit your neighborhood, I'm a visitor.

When you visit my neighborhood, you're a visitor.

If you go to the ocean (which is only one hour away), you're not "visiting".
If you say that is what you meant, I have no option but to take your word for it, but a day later to respond leaves a lot of time to think of a good explanation and your post did not come off at all as you explain above.
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:34 AM   #142
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On the switchable exhaust, I can understand why you shouldn't switch beyond a certain rpm. But can you keep them on the quieter setting at any speed, or must you turn them off?


It's a quandry I had when looking at a couple of boats. One dealer said Absolutely Not when I asked him if I could get one with an thru prop exhaust (quiet). I was just asking, not really in a buying mood. I do know that at certain HP, thru hulls are specified.

Having a law against switchables is quite silly, but now I understand that quiet exhaust pipes Can be added after the fact.
Thru hub is not offered on HP engines. (other then the one APS speaks of) all switchable exhaust I have ever researched is designed only for low RPMS. 1. you can't switch at speed 2. you are not supposed to have them on beyond 2000 rpms. Pretty much the best is for idle only. The boats I have been in that have them turn it off upon take off.
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:47 AM   #143
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Default Let's get back on the subject.

I notice the 'flaming' by proponents got a lot of people voting against the speed limit. Which is good, but I wish emotions will not encourage people to make their decision. I am hoping I am wrong and everyone voted with what they feel makes sense.

I am waiting for Rep. Pilliod to file the amendment. As of now, he has not. The next step is to take this poll, the maximum speed poll, the minimum speed poll and the compromise poll and analyse the data to come up with the best compromise.

Having no speed limit is, I believe, is dead. This proposal was defeated in the last voting. So it makes sense that we make a compromise. That will send a message to the opponents the opponents are concerned about safety. I think we will have a better chance to raise the speed limit.
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:49 PM   #144
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Having no speed limit is, I believe, is dead. This proposal was defeated in the last voting. So it makes sense that we make a compromise. That will send a message to the opponents the opponents are concerned about safety. I think we will have a better chance to raise the speed limit.
Don't be so sure that it is dead.... Keep in mind the history here.

1st the supporters wanted test zones. These zones data proved that speeding was not an issue. Their argument was that GFB just avoided these test zones.

2nd the supporters ask for the law to be enacted on the enitire lake for a period of 2 years so that it can be proven that there is a speeding issue. Also they pushed to have it linked to your MVR so that it had "consequence".

again to date no data shows there is a "speeding issue" only 1 ticket so far from what I have heard.

Now there is talk that they want to repeal the 2 year sunset provision because there isn't time to review the data....

How transparent can this be... They took small steps and used data as a ploy. Well I am hoping our Legislature sees through this as we have.

If the MP states it is not and issue and here is the data to prove it, then I can't see how or why the provision would be removed or the need for a compromise.

I had stated that I would entertain a compromise if needed however it may not be needed at all.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:29 PM   #145
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I have and still maintain my belief that there is no value to laws that have no impact. Thanks OCDACTIVE for such a logical progression of facts on the issue. Now if only the ill informed Pollyanna politicians were capable of rational thinking would I believe we can make some real progress after the 2 year project is completed.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:34 PM   #146
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Pollyanna politicians???
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:18 PM   #147
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I have and still maintain my belief that there is no value to laws that have no impact. Thanks OCDACTIVE for such a logical progression of facts on the issue. Now if only the ill informed Pollyanna politicians were capable of rational thinking would I believe we can make some real progress after the 2 year project is completed.
More importantly a law that has a "Perceived Effect." This is my biggest problem with the law and the supporters of the law. They use terms like the lake is quieter, and less busy, and safer in their arguments for a Speed Limit. I am sorry but Laws are enacted to curb a specific problem. This law has supporters because of the PERCEIVED side effects. That is ridiculous in my opinion. 1 ticket? No statistics? Just hearsay. If this were a courtroom it would be thrown out before the jury had a chance to hear the case.

Just my humble opinion
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:55 PM   #148
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, . If this were a courtroom it would be thrown out before the jury had a chance to hear the case.

Just my humble opinion
So, why can't the house and senate figure it out? Are they that foolish, or just a bunch of gullible ameteurs? It's a shame they have the powers they do.
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:51 PM   #149
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Exclamation Pollyanna politicians defined ....

Hi Kracken,

I liked the way the 2 words rhymed together. Here are the common literary definitions:

Pollyanna n. A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic.

Politicians n. Persons involved in politics

Politicians n. My personal definition has become a group of big spending, self serving, tax evading, lying bassturds that bend the laws for their personal gain or benefits.

I believe the Pollyanna Politicians (the many that had no knowledge of the issue but still voted) optimistically passed this ineffective speed law and thought they were going to help. Now the pro SL supporters want to change the rules and declare victory after half of the test term complete. This is where I apply my definition of a politician.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:08 PM   #150
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Post Open Ocean vs. Inland Lakes

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Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE View Post
"...I agree with you.. But I don't understand the ocean comment..."
I had written:

Quote:
"If you go to the ocean (which is only one hour away), you're not "visiting".
That was paraphrased from another site where the moderator (with no dog in this debate) stated:

Quote:
"...As most of you know, I'm very much opposed to additional marine regulation. However, just because of the sheer numbers and varieties of boats on inland waters, sometimes a quantifiable limit is a good idea.

"In my opinion, it would be far better to impose a reasonable speed limit now than wait until a couple of kids in a kayak are killed by someone doing 80 on the lake. Then you'll have the public screaming for a much reduced limit.

""There's an ocean not an hour's drive from the lake. That's a great place to run a boat at 75."

http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...22&postcount=5
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:05 PM   #151
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More importantly a law that has a "Perceived Effect." This is my biggest problem with the law and the supporters of the law. They use terms like the lake is quieter, and less busy, and safer in their arguments for a Speed Limit. I am sorry but Laws are enacted to curb a specific problem. This law has supporters because of the PERCEIVED side effects. That is ridiculous in my opinion. 1 ticket? No statistics? Just hearsay. If this were a courtroom it would be thrown out before the jury had a chance to hear the case.

Just my humble opinion
Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:46 PM   #152
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People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.
Quantum leap? Why don't you lie down on the couch and tell the doctor all about it.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:56 PM   #153
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Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.
It's no wonder people like you don't want the sunset provision to wait for the data. Next year will kill you. Boat sales are already higher, used prices have climbed. I think you're enjoying the best of your solitude.

Come over here where it's almost always quiet, the fish are bigger, and the wind is better.

People on this forum know the statistics just fine. The trouble is with you, you're scared of the stats. You know tht between this year and next you'll be proven wrong, again. You also know that there's a real movement to help the MP get the boneheads off the lake or better trained.

People have come a long way since Littlefield, but obviously, not all. Don't be a knuckle dragger all your life, help out for a good cause.

Signed

A Good Samaritan
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:03 PM   #154
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Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper).
Hummm, unemployment at record high levels, gasoline at $3.00 gal on the water, worst summer weather in years, ya I would guess is a bit quieter,,,

Personally the only time I ever see any significant amount of high speed traffic (over 45 MPH) on the lake is Saturdays at the peak of the season and when the weather is very good. And if I'm not in the mood to deal with it, "I" stay home. I dont run out to rally a group of knuckleheads to support my cause to pass a law to outlaw whatever annoys me on any particular day.

I guess the other part of my problem with the whole speed limit issue is that I don’t automatically associate speed (over 45 MPH) with reckless operation.

There are days when the water is flat I can cruise the Merrimack River at 65 MPH and I have no issues with safety. There are other days when the wind is blowing that I have a tough ride on Winnipesaukee at 35 MPH.

Reckless operation has always been a problem everywhere there are boats and we already have regulations that deal with it. And though it is a bit of a subjective call if someone is operating unsafely, in my mind so is the concept of universal safe speed limits.

Some boats and operators can cruise at 70 MPH without incident, others are unsafe at ANY speed.

I think anyone can make the call that passing an anchored boat at "close distance" (say 50 feet) at 70 MPH is reckless operation, but what is a safe speed for all boats and operators under all conditions, well thats not so easy to define without illegitimately curtailing our freedoms.

Who among us is a legitimate expert in small powerboat marine safety??? I’m guessing no one,,,
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:50 AM   #155
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Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.
I think you missed typed and either meant to shorten the 150' legal distance or maybe you are trying to suggest that you prefer to get back to nature with nothing but peace and quiet. Either way the lake is not a reserved haven for exclusive use of the few. It is one of the states greatest assets that attracts many from diverse cultural, economic, and view point differences. We are not trying not to judge how ones personal preference is better than anothers.

The lake being so large is unique since it can support such a vast array of sporting activities. Divers get a chance to test deep water, Sailers can let loose for long blows(can you tell I am not a sailer?), fishing for those that choose can be thrilling, and the surrounding towns have embraced all and encourage tourism. I don't see how we can allow a restrictive law exist that intends to eliminate a certain class of sportsman. I do not believe it is appropriate for our state to do this for this huge public resource. Safety is an issue, noise is already governed, and fear is controllable.

I believe this thread was an attempt to eliminate the statistical twisting that some of the previous surveys encountered. Should the speed limit stay or go? I do not believe it does any good so get rid of it. My opinion only.
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Old 09-16-2009, 05:03 AM   #156
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There are days when the water is flat I can cruise the Merrimack River at 65 MPH and I have no issues with safety. There are other days when the wind is blowing that I have a tough ride on Winnipesaukee at 35 MPH.
And there are some nights when I can safely do 110 MPH on Rt. 95 (but I don't and I'm glad that for the most part neither do others).
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Old 09-16-2009, 06:30 AM   #157
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And there are some nights when I can safely do 110 MPH on Rt. 95 (but I don't and I'm glad that for the most part neither do others).
I fully agree, but the 65 mph speed limit on Rt 95 does nothing to make the road safer, the roadway is safe because people operate safely.

I would similarly argue that the people who drive 45 mph on Rt 95 present as much of a threat as the ones who drive 110 mph, the issue is not any specific number, its reasonableness of the speed for the location, situation, and conditions. And I think thats even more the case for boats where you dont have specific striped lanes and other very detailed nav aids.

So again I would argue, speed limits do not ensure safety, safe operation is the key to success and no law can absolutely ensure either adherence to a speed limit or that any individual will operate safely.

At some level we all have to assume some risk in the use of boats, cars, hell just walking across the street can be risky. Life has risks, but piling law after law that restrict the many, in the name of appeasing the few rarely accomplishes anything except to further clog the legal system and deprive the citizens of their freedom.

Well that’s one persons opinion,,,

But then what do I know, I have "only" been accident and ticket free on the water for 45+ years,,,

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Old 09-16-2009, 06:53 AM   #158
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Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.
I think you have "statistics" confused with poll results in this context. The statistics that others are referring to is the fact that there is no evidence of a speed problem on the lake, it is a perceived problem. How can I say this? Well, one statistic in particular shows that there has not been a single death on the lake that was directly caused by a high speed. Another statistic based on data gathered by the MP during the test period also led MP to conclude that speed was not a problem on the lake.

And to the bolded above, it may not be a "perceived" side effect, but it certainly could be a side effect of a speed limit. But you don't know that. One could argue that that particular side effect isn't even a side effect at all...it was one of the primary goals of implementing the speed limit.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:04 AM   #159
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Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.
While I see your premise to your arguement, however this is where your position goes off the rails.

1. the lake is quieter due to the economy nothing more. There have been story after story on WMUR that people have not see vacancy's like this in years and tourism is at one if its all time lows. Marinas have had terrible sales figures and resturants are also feeling the pinch. Showing that it is quieter not due to limits but lack of people of all boating types.

2. The winnfabs pushed for the speed limit test zones and were disappointed in the results. The MP stated on the floor of the House that the test zone data proved (as they had said all along) there is not a speeding problem on our big lake. It is lack of education and adherence to existing rules.

The winnfabs again argued that the reason there was little to no speeding was because the GFB just avoided the test zones. Now whether that was a ploy or not is irrelevant.

They then argued that if the "entire lake" had limits then we would see an entirely different set of statistial results (because GFB would have no where to hide).

Well now that still hasn't happened. And if you read back on threads even before the test zones it was said that what supporters would do, as soon as the data showed speeding was not a problem, is they would jump on their soap box and state: "Hey look how well they are working"

That may be your opinion and that is perfectly fine. However it was not the intention or the arguement made for the 2 year test period by the people that pushed for them.

The arguement was: Put them into effect and see how many we catch to make the lake safer. NOT, put them in effect and no one will speed.

So although you may "feel" safer, the reasoning of the supporters (winnfabs) has been proven wrong.

My personal opinion is that they had no intention of trying to prove anything with any data and either way they were going to push for 'permanent' limits.

Lets just hope that the Legislature can take of their blind folds and see this progression for themselves.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:34 AM   #160
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As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:41 AM   #161
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As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.
So you also think then that the accumulation of data was a ploy then and part of their agenda?

Also, you don't feel the economy has nothing to do with the lack of boats on the lake?

Just wondering your opinion.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:54 AM   #162
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Hi Kracken,

I liked the way the 2 words rhymed together. Here are the common literary definitions:

Pollyanna n. A person regarded as being foolishly or blindly optimistic.

Politicians n. Persons involved in politics

Politicians n. My personal definition has become a group of big spending, self serving, tax evading, lying bassturds that bend the laws for their personal gain or benefits.

I believe the Pollyanna Politicians (the many that had no knowledge of the issue but still voted) optimistically passed this ineffective speed law and thought they were going to help. Now the pro SL supporters want to change the rules and declare victory after half of the test term complete. This is where I apply my definition of a politician.
Thanks NoRegrets,

Thats what I thought. I like the term
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:09 AM   #163
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Turtle boy.

You made this statement twice yesterday:

“...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH”

I am a little confused here and maybe you can clarify. How does a boat “screaming” by you at 70 MPH at a distance of 150 feet impact you in a negative way? As long as the “screaming” boat stays 150 away from you, I don’t understand how it would have a negative impact on you.

As a follow up question; has this ever actually happened to you?

Finally, does anybody have information about the 1 speeding ticket that was issued?
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:09 AM   #164
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The bottom line for me is that of all of the high performance boats I know of, none have left the lake, and none are doing anything differently. So, how can the lake be any quieter? In fact, I have noticed some additional HP boats on the lake this year. The Marine Patrol has always stated that speed was never an issue. The issue is a very small group of selfish, self-centered individuals trying to avenge the death of their friend. And, what's worse, maybe using this tragedy not to avenge, but for their own personal benefit to get what they really want, another Golden Pond and the lake to themselves.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:13 AM   #165
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Turtle boy.

You made this statement twice yesterday:

“...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH”

I am a little confused here and maybe you can clarify. How does a boat “screaming” by you at 70 MPH at a distance of 150 feet impact you in a negative way? As long as the “screaming” boat stays 150 away from you, I don’t understand how it would have a negative impact on you.

As a follow up question; has this ever actually happened to you?

Finally, does anybody have information about the 1 speeding ticket that was issued?

As a followup to the "screaming" boats..... are you implying that fishing boats screaming past you over 150 ft. are too loud? or just GFB?

I heard thru a friend that the ticket was going to be a warning but the person was rude to the MP officer......
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:19 AM   #166
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pm203

You lost me on this:

“The issue is a very small group of selfish, self-centered individuals trying to avenge the death of their friend.”

Maybe its me and I killed off a few to many brain cells this weekend. Could you clarify this? It is the first time I have heard this theory.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:27 AM   #167
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After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:49 AM   #168
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After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.
I will not be surprise that if the BAJA was a bass boat, they would be banning bass boats instead of GFBL. Likewise if it was a big cruiser.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:52 AM   #169
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Just go out to the end of your dock in August and listen if you don't think the lake isn't quieter(even with gas $2.00/gal cheaper). And thank God you can go out fishing at the buoys without some GFBL screaming past you at 70 MPH just 150' from your anchored boat...that's not "perceived side effects"? And as far as 1 ticket, that's even more evidence that speed limits are working. No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications. People who use Winnipesaukee will not give up this quantum leap in the lake's quality of life.
Am I mistaken or does Turtle Boy consistently drag my personal life, my job into the debate.

Because my grasp on the polling data or the statistics differs from your opinion does not make you the least bit correct. Nor does my profession have any validity in this discussion. What is it that you do for a living and how does it affect this debate?

I'm trying Don... Really I am....
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:15 AM   #170
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As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.
I will agree that the difference is night and day so pay attention because I am going to help you out a little as you are trying to compare the 2008 economy with 2009. First you mentioned the gas, so that is covered as to the difference between the years, but I will post in my list anyway. All figures are fiscal year start to date.

Description 2008 2009

Nat. Unemployment 5.8% 9.7%

NH Unemployment 3.9% 6.9%

Gas $5.00 $3.00

The next list is my companies growth comparing 2008 to 2007 and 2009 to 2008. Again Fiscal year start to date. I am in the remodeling industry, we do not build new houses or spec homes or developments, we remodel existing homes. We have out performed 4 out of 6 of our peers in the Lake Sunapee region.

Description 2008 V 2007 2009 V 2008

Sales volume +8% -49%


Our company is now half the size it was in 2007 in all aspects and that started in November of 2008. Like I said we out performed 4 of our 6 direct competitors (companies of like size and sales volume) We do not count the back of the pickup truck or fly by nighters in our data, you have to have a showroom, professional appearence with vehicles and an annual sales volume of over 1 million (average).

The major difference in this year to last is that every job this year has had 4-6 bids submitted with most of the winning bidders bids at our cost. We rutinely follow up with customers and clients to get an idea of why and what caused them to go with someone else over us. Our company does not sell or deliver cheap, we sell and deliver professionalism and quality. If you do not believe me visit my website www.foremostbuilders.com .

Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what the difference between 2008 and 2009 is really like. Not some pipe dream that you think has nothing to do with the amount of boating activity on the lake. The speed limit has as much to do with it as the water temp.

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Old 09-16-2009, 09:15 AM   #171
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The bottom line for me is that of all of the high performance boats I know of, none have left the lake, and none are doing anything differently. So, how can the lake be any quieter?
If none of the owner's of the GFBL's that you know are doing anything differently, yet he sees a huge difference this year in GFBL behavior, then maybe the issue is that your friends are behaving more badly (read "breaking the law") than the average GFBL owner. As El said, wouldn't it be nice if all of us could pick and choose which laws to obey. This is why Speed Limits will be here to stay. As far as a small group wanting the lake to themselves, you're as welcome as anyone else...and the compromise of 45/25 allows you to go very fast still (though I don't understand all the grumbling about the SL if the SL hasn't changed yours or your friends behavior one bit).
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:20 AM   #172
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They then argued that if the "entire lake" had limits then we would see an entirely different set of statistial results (because GFB would have no where to hide).

Well now that still hasn't happened. And if you read back on threads even before the test zones it was said that what supporters would do, as soon as the data showed speeding was not a problem, is they would jump on their soap box and state: "Hey look how well they are working"
The problem is that they set themselves up to have no measure of effectiveness for the law. When you are measuring the effectiveness like this, you have to have in advance an idea of what success is and what failure is. If lots of tickets is a success, then no tickets cannot also be success. It is possible for something to be incorrect, no matter how much you want it to be correct. To refuse to acknowledge that there is a measure in which something could fail is poor form.

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As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.
The economy started spiraling last fall, with Lehman Brothers being the first real sign we were in trouble. That was one year ago yesterday. This season has been quieter for two reasons: weather & economy. You have blinders on if you don't believe that. In June, 23 out of 30 days were rainy. July was similar. August was beautiful, but by that time a lot of people give up. The same thing happens at ski mountains; if December & January are warm/snow free, then even if February/March are awesome, the numbers for those months are still down.
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:21 AM   #173
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(though I don't understand all the grumbling about the SL if the SL hasn't changed yours or your friends behavior one bit).
Funny, How it changes your behavior....................................
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:25 AM   #174
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No statistics? That from someone(a teacher) who has repeatedly shown no working knowledge of even the most rudimentary fundamentals of polling and it's statistical implications.
I am curious:
What Stats? The ones that showed nobody was speeding on the lake? Or the Stats that show little to no accidents associated with High Speed?
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Old 09-16-2009, 09:29 AM   #175
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After the Littlefield accident and a loss of a neighbor and friend in that accident, a small group of people vowed to get rid of all the high performance boats on the lake to avenge his death. This was the catalyst that advanced a law that was previously turned down several times by the senate.
While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:29 AM   #176
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While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.
OK. Now you are talking about all boats. Not just GFBL. On this aspect, I will have to agree with you. Unfortunately there are people that wants to ban a specific class of boats i.e. GFBL. This is like racism. Give a certain type of boaters a bad name. If the above quote is the real agenda then it will help tremendously in approaching a real compromise among all boaters and waterfront owners on Winnipesaukee and possibly all of NH.

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I hope the majority of the SL opponents will agree with me.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:57 AM   #177
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OK. Now you are talking about all boats. Not just GFBL. On this aspect, I will have to agree with you. Unfortunately there are people that wants to ban a specific class of boats i.e. GFBL. This is like racism. Give a certain type of boaters a bad name. If the above quote is the real agenda then it will help tremendously in approaching a real compromise among all boaters and waterfront owners on Winnipesaukee and possibly all of NH.

If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I hope the majority of the SL opponents will agree with me.
Yes, if allowed, I am breaking my self-imposed no posting here

But BroadHopper sates what many of us have stated for a long time, especially this year.

I have bolded what I think says it all. BI, I think these folks can help you accomplish just that. By next year and thereafter, the economy "probably" will have recovered to more normal levels. Now's a great time to start working together towards a common goal. BroadHopper, in a single sentence, has defined that common goal very well.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:01 AM   #178
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If we can concentrate on corralling the 'cowboys' and 'Captain Boneheads', I think we can speak volumes in reducing the fear factor and increase safe boating.

I definately agree.. Enforcement of the safe passage law and education is the way to curve this issue. Speed limits do nothing to reduce fear and or improve safety.

In my personal observations it is not the $200K GFB cruising at 55mph that you have to be worried about. Its the family driving the "Thurstons Marina Rental Boat" that I steer FAR away from.

The GFB normally has much more experience and stake in his boat then the weekend warriors or Capt'n BH!
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:18 AM   #179
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I definately agree.. Enforcement of the safe passage law and education is the way to curve this issue. Speed limits do nothing to reduce fear and or improve safety.

In my personal observations it is not the $200K GFB cruising at 55mph that you have to be worried about. Its the family driving the "Thurstons Marina Rental Boat" that I steer FAR away from.

The GFB normally has much more experience and stake in his boat then the weekend warriors or Capt'n BH!
Couldn't be more spot on!!
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:35 PM   #180
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BTW I: Of one's homes, who here can be struck by a boat or a car? (Or an anchor).
Well FWIW I can answer yes, yes to all. We're perhaps 8' from the road (busy at times) and about 40' from the water. And only 5' above the water line too so I think I've got this one covered. Do I win a prize ?

ps - I've got a few trees but I'm sure a small plane could crash into the cabin with just a little effort. I like to live dangerously !
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:37 PM   #181
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Originally posted by BI
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While it is true that the accident may have been the catalyst for many people, it was not indicative of the real problem.

The real problems were many but near the top of the list was the steady increase in the average boat size and horsepower, environmental concerns, and the increasing cowboy atmosphere of the lake. Most importantly it was the direction the lake was going in.

You can believe that it's revenge against performance boats if you wish. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.
While I disagree with Bear Islander 100% on the speed limit issue he has always maintained that his support for speed limits has little to do with safety, the only supporter that I am aware of that honestly makes that statement.

I find it interesting I have read that WinnFabs was created in part by two of the principles in the Littlefield accident that MAY have been linked to the cause of the accident...it is my opinion that the entire Speed Limits push was nothing more than a red herring to shift public opinion away from them and toward a "solution in search of a problem".
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:51 PM   #182
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. But the truth is more complicated and more varied.

It was always more about fear than it was about safety. Safety is just one of the items on the list.
So, is it safety, fear or noise? I guess it is whatever sounds good at the time.
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:10 PM   #183
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So, is it safety, fear or noise? I guess it is whatever sounds good at the time.

It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:17 PM   #184
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It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.
But how does a speed limit do that?
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:27 PM   #185
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It is all three plus many more. And most of them come down to the direction the lake is headed in. The bigger, faster, louder, more power, "get out of my way" trend must be reversed.
The trend has already been reversed. And, its not by the speed limit. I think the economy and weather has alot to do with it. I find that the smaller boats with uneducated boaters have more of the " get out of my way" mentality. They are the real cowboys of the lake.
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:42 PM   #186
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But how does a speed limit do that?

A horsepower limit would do it better. However a speed limit will....

set a standard
change the lakes direction a little
give the Marine Patrol another enforcement tool against Capt. B
pressure people to buy less powerful boats
pressure the "need for speed" crowd to go elsewhere
make the lake less desirable to Capt. B
it might even slow some people down
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:45 PM   #187
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PM203 - I agree with you that the smaller boats are a much bigger problem!

Bear Islander is very true to his perspectives and correct in his logic. Thank you for that! I am sorry VT Steve that you have some sort of self imposed no posting policy going (I hope it is short lived!). There is plenty of goading but it seems to correct itself after some entertaining bantering!!!

The diverse opinions being written about by all are finally defining the real issue. This is not the only place in the country where sharing resources have created actions that are being debated. This forum is unique where it allows people to communicate and vent for both entertainment and education. We are really lucky to have it!

The population is crowding more people into desirable spaces. Trying to ration who and how people enjoy the lake is wrong! One can whine and beg all they want but the lake is public for the benefit of all. It has great history and is the only resource of this size that should be able to accommodate those that choose to rev it up a bit. The slippery slope that the Speed Limit Law offers is that it may never stop until only man powered crafts or swimmers are allowed to use the lake. I feel the smallest group is the first to be attacked or ruled out, next they will go for the cruisers, then the boats on trailers, etc. It may never stop until those that control the media or politicians have their exclusive lake without the all the inconveniences mentioned.

Go for the boneheads, rude, and un-educated and all will follow. I have no problem with bigger, faster, or more powerful equipment. I think it is amazing how technology and materials can support specialty vessels that some enjoy. The louder (already governed by law) and “get out of my way” issues should be addressed. Speed limits hurt many law abiding people that have the same rights as the rest of us have (for now!).
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:45 PM   #188
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BI, I think they call that wishful thinking.
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Old 09-16-2009, 02:55 PM   #189
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No Regrets,

Excellent post! Everybody does need to get along. There are many times when I find sail boats to be a pain. I don't form an organization and try to get them banned. I respect them and their right to use the lake. Unfortunately, everybody does not share that opinion.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:00 PM   #190
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A horsepower limit would do it better. However a speed limit will....

set a standard
change the lakes direction a little
give the Marine Patrol another enforcement tool against Capt. B
pressure people to buy less powerful boats
pressure the "need for speed" crowd to go elsewhere
make the lake less desirable to Capt. B
it might even slow some people down
You have a very liberal interpretation of Capt. B. The vast majority of Capt. B's I've encountered are not boats that I'd consider fast, nor were they generally going fast when acting poorly. I'm not saying there aren't any, just vastly outnumbered by the hoards of smaller, slower boats doing stupid things on the lake.

I contend that the vast majority of these boneheads you talk about, are unaffected by the SL law. The only thing that would discourage boneheads is to have the MP's stop them all the time, and ticket them. Mostly, they wouldn't be stopped for speeding. I think your still in the hope and pray mode, while others are looking for tangible solutions. Not knocking what you're saying, but you're hoping a speed limit law will make some boats go elsewhere, and even discourage bad boaters in general to go elsewhere.

That's just having a law of some kind and see if it works on anything. Scatter gun legislation is better than not at all? Not in my book.
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Old 09-16-2009, 03:53 PM   #191
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As HN said, laws are enacted to curb specific problems. Last year, with a faltering economy and $5 gas vs. this year with a faltering economy and $3 gas, the difference is like night and day...boats aren't screaming by you 150' from your fishing boat at 70 MPH and one can actually have a conversation on the dock. There are people all over the lake who feel this way, and as was pointed out before, some of them are our elected officials in Concord...they can see the results with their own eyes, they don't have to take anyone's word for it. As far as Winnfabs and pushing their "agenda", let's not forget the powerboat industry and NHRBA pushing theirs down our legislators throats...I'm happy the house and senate took off their blindfolds and recognized this.
Just for the record, the Dow Jones Index didn’t drop until October 2008, after most boats were out of the water, unemployment was in the low 6’s through November (it is now at 9.5), there was not a recognized faltering economy during the 2008 boating season in New Hampshire.

People who can spend six figures plus for GFBL’s are not affected by fluctuations in the price of gasoline which causes them to pay maybe a couple of [hundred] bucks more for a fill up, they are effected by a seven figure hit to their portfolios or a lost job.

Proof of this is the price of boats, new and used, fell in the September/October 2008 time frame, after the market fell and at the time gas prices were also falling.

There are fewer boats on the lake this year because toys tend to be sold off before people give up their homes.
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Old 09-17-2009, 09:44 AM   #192
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I will agree that the difference is night and day so pay attention because I am going to help you out a little as you are trying to compare the 2008 economy with 2009. First you mentioned the gas, so that is covered as to the difference between the years, but I will post in my list anyway. All figures are fiscal year start to date.

Description 2008 2009

Nat. Unemployment 5.8% 9.7%

NH Unemployment 3.9% 6.9%

Gas $5.00 $3.00

The next list is my companies growth comparing 2008 to 2007 and 2009 to 2008. Again Fiscal year start to date. I am in the remodeling industry, we do not build new houses or spec homes or developments, we remodel existing homes. We have out performed 4 out of 6 of our peers in the Lake Sunapee region.

Description 2008 V 2007 2009 V 2008

Sales volume +8% -49%


Our company is now half the size it was in 2007 in all aspects and that started in November of 2008. Like I said we out performed 4 of our 6 direct competitors (companies of like size and sales volume) We do not count the back of the pickup truck or fly by nighters in our data, you have to have a showroom, professional appearence with vehicles and an annual sales volume of over 1 million (average).

The major difference in this year to last is that every job this year has had 4-6 bids submitted with most of the winning bidders bids at our cost. We rutinely follow up with customers and clients to get an idea of why and what caused them to go with someone else over us. Our company does not sell or deliver cheap, we sell and deliver professionalism and quality. If you do not believe me visit my website www.foremostbuilders.com .

Hopefully this will give you a better idea of what the difference between 2008 and 2009 is really like. Not some pipe dream that you think has nothing to do with the amount of boating activity on the lake. The speed limit has as much to do with it as the water temp.
You make very good points with numbers to support them. I hope things improve for your business...People are seeing signs of this and I hope they're right. We're having a little construction done and can see the builders are really hurting. Many people on forum are attributing all the change on the lake to weather and economy, and while they may contribute, I would add the following. August weather was great, and I boated more in August than I can remember. Secondly, gas prices, according to what people have said on this forum, are a major contributor to how much people boat. Now 9.7%/6.9%US/NH unemployment is not good, and many of the other 90.3%/93.1% have also been affected, but there are many on the lake who have been somewhat insulated(and I'm sorry it's not you)....many on pensions, many in the public and medical sectors, etc., etc.,and many who come to Winni are probably better off than the average person. There were many days in August when the traffic near me seemed almost normal; my point is that their behavior was different. The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example. As much as some on the forum would deny it, it can't all be explained by the economy and weather. The manner in which people are boating has changed for the better, even if fewer are boating. Good luck with your business...next year should be better.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:09 AM   #193
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I find it interesting I have read that WinnFabs was created in part by two of the principles in the Littlefield accident that MAY have been linked to the cause of the accident...it is my opinion that the entire Speed Limits push was nothing more than a red herring to shift public opinion away from them and toward a "solution in search of a problem".
You should also notice that Thurston Marine is one of the chief proponent of the speed limits. They broke away from the NH Marine Trade Assoc. because the assoc. is against the speed limits. Their rentals have cause more problems other than the PWC rentals on the lake than any rentals that I know. I also think Thurston's was also trying to shift public opinion of them.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:25 AM   #194
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Obviously, the dramatic recession and the weather conspired to limit boating nationwide. Sales plummeted this year again, and limited access to loans, adjusting the required loan to value (LTV) turned away bargain shoppers that probably shouldn't have looked in the first place. Our slips were full as usual, but out on the lake it was noticeably quiet all the way through Labor Day weekend, which was pretty good weather-wise. I don't expect the boat industry to come back quickly, as many dealers are build to order operations now, with the floorplan costs so high.

So many boats, and expensive ones at that, were purchased the last few years through home equity LOC's and refi cash-outs. Obviously, I wouldn't plan on that coming back too soon. There were places I could visit this year that are usually crazy in a normal summer. But in June and July, nobody had much desire to do much of anything. The incredible paydown of credit card debt was a clear indication that people were tightening, and understood that further spending could sink them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens next summer, assuming we have one It won't stay quiet forever, it never does.
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Old 09-17-2009, 11:56 AM   #195
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The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example.
SL or no SL, why is this an issue? Previous laws have determined that 150' was 'safe passage' at any speed.

I also tried to find the MP report of this incident, but was unsucessful. Would you happen to have a copy, or is this just another example of ficticious fearmongering?

Lack of education and CB's are the real issues on the lake. They were there in 2008 and they are here in 2009. The feel good law did nothing to solve any problems.
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:08 PM   #196
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You make very good points with numbers to support them. I hope things improve for your business...People are seeing signs of this and I hope they're right. We're having a little construction done and can see the builders are really hurting. Many people on forum are attributing all the change on the lake to weather and economy, and while they may contribute, I would add the following. August weather was great, and I boated more in August than I can remember. Secondly, gas prices, according to what people have said on this forum, are a major contributor to how much people boat. Now 9.7%/6.9%US/NH unemployment is not good, and many of the other 90.3%/93.1% have also been affected, but there are many on the lake who have been somewhat insulated(and I'm sorry it's not you)....many on pensions, many in the public and medical sectors, etc., etc.,and many who come to Winni are probably better off than the average person. There were many days in August when the traffic near me seemed almost normal; my point is that their behavior was different. The previously described GFBL's screaming 150' past the fisherman at 70 MPH were pretty much gone for example. As much as some on the forum would deny it, it can't all be explained by the economy and weather. The manner in which people are boating has changed for the better, even if fewer are boating. Good luck with your business...next year should be better.
Business in and of itself is fine, just down. We did compensate early enough that the bottom line is still the same just sales are down. Thank you for your response. However we have seen a larger hit of people losing their jobs that are in the upper tax brackets, many of our clients have asked to put off work that was scheduled for next year after their portfolios went into the trenches. 76% of our current client base own two or more homes. I agree with MeEscape's post above regarding the toys being the first things to receive neglected attention, same goes for additional dwellings. When the folks that can afford the toys and the second homes start seeing that the ax could make it to their level they cinch up the purse strings and focus money on other things. On the times I was out on the lake this year on both Winni (July 4-5, Aug 15-16 and 29-31) and Sunapee (Sept 5-6) the numbers of boats seemed very low compared to the years past and those were all very good boating days and two were holiday weekends. Working on Sunapee for most of the July and August months the traffic was down considerably even during the week. Maybe some of the cowboys around you are some of the same folks that fall into that current unemployment number.
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:10 PM   #197
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SL or no SL, why is this an issue? Previous laws have determined that 150' was 'safe passage' at any speed.

I also tried to find the MP report of this incident, but was unsucessful. Would you happen to have a copy, or is this just another example of ficticious fearmongering?

Lack of education and CB's are the real issues on the lake. They were there in 2008 and they are here in 2009. The feel good law did nothing to solve any problems.
Whoa, calm down there buckaroo....that's the point, speeding past a fisherman (or anyone else) at 70 MPH at a distance of 150' was legal until this year...unpleasant, irritating but legal. Not any longer. And despite some who contend otherwise, the Sl was not ONLY about safety. As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:18 PM   #198
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Wow... I can't believe how close to peril I have lived my life.
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Old 09-17-2009, 12:27 PM   #199
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As far as your melodrama about ficticious fearmongering...chill.
Sorry. I'm calm now.

I like to enjoy the lake as much as you and everybody else. We both certainly have the right to take a stance in the debate. We can certainly agree to disagree. One issue I feel very strongly about and could be proven with facts, is the SL did not change anything it was intended to change.

For the record, I do not own a GFBL. I'm just rational.

Enjoy the afternoon!
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Old 09-17-2009, 01:16 PM   #200
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Sorry. I'm calm now.

I like to enjoy the lake as much as you and everybody else. We both certainly have the right to take a stance in the debate. We can certainly agree to disagree. One issue I feel very strongly about and could be proven with facts, is the SL did not change anything it was intended to change.

For the record, I do not own a GFBL. I'm just rational.

Enjoy the afternoon!
Most of us feel the same way as you and don't own a fast boat, but to steal Airwave's line from above- why let that get in the way of a good argument!
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