Island property prices

[hemlock]

It seems to me that Island property prices have gone through the roof! As I look at listings it seems that 2-3 bedroom cottages are being priced in the 4-500 k range with some fancy places up to 900 k. Is this temporary or is it going to be the new normal?

[Susie Cougar]

That’s the thing with real estate, no one has a crystal ball and no one knows what will happen in the future. You can list your property for anything you want but the reality is that it’s only worth what someone will pay for it. Prices have been going up all around the lake. But next year it might be the complete opposite.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by hemlock

It seems to me that Island property prices have gone through the roof! As I look at listings it seems that 2-3 bedroom cottages are being priced in the 4-500 k range with some fancy places up to 900 k. Is this temporary or is it going to be the new normal?

Listing prices are definitely up over the past few years. Seems as though waterfront even on an island is a limited commodity so they tend to ratchet in one direction and don't really seem to correct downwards as much as just stagnate.

Real estate prices in general have been on an upswing so generally speaking all property benefits as a result.

[winterh]

I had a friend call me recently asking about lake Winni real estate. I have had several places over the years and he wanted some advice on pros and cons of various areas. I looked at listings and was shocked how few there are. Just 3 listings available in Wolfeboro. That seems like a crazy low number. I am sure a few more will come on in spring but still. That has to be driving the price. That and a great economy.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by hemlock

It seems to me that Island property prices have gone through the roof! As I look at listings it seems that 2-3 bedroom cottages are being priced in the 4-500 k range with some fancy places up to 900 k. Is this temporary or is it going to be the new normal?

As an island property owner, my unscientific observation is that island property values were significantly stagnant since the early 2000s until the last 3-4 years. So perhaps this is just the market catching up. There seems to have been a bit more island inventory this past year than the past couple years, which suggests that the higher prices are here to stay (vs. low inventory years where supply/demand would seem to drive up prices).

I would be interested to hear what realtors think. My perception has been island prices have been either stagnant or increasing over the last 20 years, but don’t think I’ve seen any indication that island prices have ever dropped significantly, even around the 2008 bust. If accurate, that would suggest the current prices are the new normal.

If the recent tax assessments in Moultonborough and Tuftonboro are any indication (huge increases on island properties this year), you’re not the only one taking notice of the higher prices...

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

if the recent tax assessments in Moultonborough and Tuftonboro are any indication (huge increases on island properties this year), you’re not the only one taking notice of the higher prices...

Tuftonboro used fuzzy math for their recent assessments of island properties. I don't think they have any idea of the amount of abatements they'll be receiving from island owners by the March 1st deadline.

[MAXUM]

There has also been a monumental shift in what is being built on the islands too. These island contractors can accommodate just about anything these days. So what you are seeing is old simply constructed "camps" being replaced by modern day houses with any amenity your wallet can pay for. That is really pushing prices north bound too.

[Descant]

The inventory is low, in part because properties "sell" within the family. As long as the next generation can afford the taxes, nobody wants to sell. They may sell their mainland home in Kansas and move to Oklahoma, then to Rhode Island, all with no sentiment. But, no, no. Don't sell the camp.
The tax assessment for our camp on the south side of Welch hasn't changed much over the last several years, although the tax bill creeps up. Looking at the tax cards, the variations from one place to the next, vary based on frontage. Owning any back land does not change total value a lot.
You're right about $450-$500 K, at least for asking prices. You'd need to look at the "closed" pages of MLS to see actual sales price.
Add to the purchase price of the camp, the cost of a boat, often two, and mainland docking. The islands that have an association or restricted dock and parking are more valuable.

[CowTimes]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

There has also been a monumental shift in what is being built on the islands too. These island contractors can accommodate just about anything these days. So what you are seeing is old simply constructed "camps" being replaced by modern day houses with any amenity your wallet can pay for. That is really pushing prices north bound too.

I just hope there is a ceiling to what the market will support for island properties. I can’t believe that there is a huge contingency of buyers willing to pay close to $1 million or above for a seasonal property that is only accessible by boat. The great part of island properties, in my view, has been, at least historically, that non-millionaires could have their own secluded part of the lake. Sure, it requires a boat, some (or a lot) of DIY prowess, and hauling everything/everyone to/from by boat, but that and the secluded nature of island living is what I actually value most about our camp.

I know that we can’t entirely prevent this type of gentrification from spreading to the islands as mainland property prices continue to sky rocket. I just hope that as many of these properties as possible stay as true “camps.”

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by CowTimes

I just hope there is a ceiling to what the market will support for island properties. I can’t believe that there is a huge contingency of buyers willing to pay close to $1 million or above for a seasonal property that is only accessible by boat. The great part of island properties, in my view, has been, at least historically, that non-millionaires could have their own secluded part of the lake. Sure, it requires a boat, some (or a lot) of DIY prowess, and hauling everything/everyone to/from by boat, but that and the secluded nature of island living is what I actually value most about our camp.

I know that we can’t entirely prevent this type of gentrification from spreading to the islands as mainland property prices continue to sky rocket. I just hope that as many of these properties as possible stay as true “camps.”

There are aspects of being on an island that will never change and those characteristics kept prices reasonable for those willing to live with the logistics of being out there. What it really comes down to is whether or not the ambiance, quiet, relative privacy and seclusion becomes it's most valuable quality. In a world where you can't seem to get away from it all, I've found that island time never changes much and nobody can just stop by and visit.

Values will go up over time, but I think relative to the mainland waterfront market it probably won't change a whole lot.

[dva]

Wait to see the taxes after Bernie !!

[Sundancer320]

Bernie will crash the economy and the property prices will drop like a stone so you can then step in a pickup a great property.

[swnoel]

Originally Posted by Sundancer320

Bernie will crash the economy and the property prices will drop like a stone so you can then step in a pickup a great property.

Everything works in cycles... patience will get you the home you want at a 30-50% discount in the coming years. It really doesn't matter who's in office. Low interest rates has created this bubble.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by Sundancer320

Bernie will crash the economy and the property prices will drop like a stone so you can then step in a pickup a great property.

What I find interesting, and frustrating, is the astronomical deficits that President Trump and the Republicans (who had a majority in the House and Senate for two years) have created. We will have to deal with it - and the economy will suffer at some point.

My guess is that island, and waterfront property in general, will be largely unaffected. There is a core population that is doing very well and is well positioned to weather an economic downturn. Those who are overextended and unable to make ends meet will have to sell at a loss, but my guess is that will be the exception rather than the rule. Even if people are forced to sell, I think there will be more buyers than property available, keeping prices where they are.

As for Bernie, like him or not, at least we know where he stands. Do I like what he stands for? Not really...

Bottom line, IMHO, is property values on the water will remain consistent and/or continue to rise. There is not going to be a dramatic decline in prices regardless of who is in power. If I'm wrong, I'm well positioned to step in and buy, but I'm not willing at current prices. I'm happy with what I have. I don't view my property as an investment to cash in, but instead a lifestyle choice to enjoy.

[Major]

Originally Posted by Garcia

What I find interesting, and frustrating, is the astronomical deficits that President Trump and the Republicans (who had a majority in the House and Senate for two years) have created. We will have to deal with it - and the economy will suffer at some point.

I love how liberals rewrite history. The federal deficit doubled under Bush II (roughly $4 Trillion to $8 Trillion), and then doubled under Obama ($8 Trillion to $16 Trillion). Certainly both parties have had a hand in the federal deficit, but to claim that Trump and Republicans caused it is simply wrong.

By the way, I love how the left now is so concerned about the deficit now that the economy is supercharged. I didn't hear much from them between 2008 and 2016.

[Biggd]

Well this thread has gone in the crapper!

[JEEPONLY]

Originally Posted by Biggd

Well this thread has gone in the crapper!

Not too long ago a post of mine was deleted, evidently, because it was deemed political.
Now we have this thread?
I'm insulted!!!

[tis]

Originally Posted by JEEPONLY

Not too long ago a post of mine was deleted, evidently, because it was deemed political.
Now we have this thread?
I'm insulted!!!

I don't think admin is as strict as he used to be.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by tis

I don't think admin is as strict as he used to be.

I think it's more that the post in reference was in isolation and, at very best, barely connected to the forum.

The above political discussion relates directly to the economy and, as a result, real estate values.

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[Garcia]

I deleted the post I made that was off topic. I think island property (and waterfront in general), boat slips, valet, and parking spaces will continue to be in high demand and thus prices will rise regardless of a downturn. They are finite resources that will continue to be in demand - and no matter what happens with the economy, there will be people who can pay.

Personally, I don't think island or shorefront property is a good investment as many things offer a much better rate of return. People who are buying are those who want to enjoy the lake.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by Major

I love how liberals rewrite history. The federal deficit doubled under Bush II (roughly $4 Trillion to $8 Trillion), and then doubled under Obama ($8 Trillion to $16 Trillion). Certainly both parties have had a hand in the federal deficit, but to claim that Trump and Republicans caused it is simply wrong.

By the way, I love how the left now is so concerned about the deficit now that the economy is supercharged. I didn't hear much from them between 2008 and 2016.

Just to be clear I have always been concerned about the deficit. My point is that the Republican Party was the party of fiscal responsibility all through the Obama years. That has been thrown out the window. Look at Mick Mulvaney - a Tea Party deceit hawk a decade ago who now says, basically, deficits don't matter. You are correct in that Liberals have changed their view and are now concerned with the defect. At the same time, Conservatives, too, have flipped their viewpoint on deficits. Deficits were the cornerstone of their platform but now don't matter. I'd be willing to bet that when a Democrat is elected President (which will happen at some point), deficits will no longer matter to them but will be important to Republicans.

I'm not voting for Bernie as I think he is the wrong person to lead our country. I do have respect for him, though, as he has held true to his beliefs through his career.

Sorry to go off on a tangent...

[Major]

Originally Posted by Garcia

Just to be clear I have always been concerned about the deficit. My point is that the Republican Party was the party of fiscal responsibility all through the Obama years. That has been thrown out the window. Look at Mick Mulvaney - a Tea Party deceit hawk a decade ago who now says, basically, deficits don't matter. You are correct in that Liberals have changed their view and are now concerned with the defect. At the same time, Conservatives, too, have flipped their viewpoint on deficits. Deficits were the cornerstone of their platform but now don't matter. I'd be willing to bet that when a Democrat is elected President (which will happen at some point), deficits will no longer matter to them but will be important to Republicans.

I'm not voting for Bernie as I think he is the wrong person to lead our country. I do have respect for him, though, as he has held true to his beliefs through his career.

Sorry to go off on a tangent...

I agree it doesn't matter. The reason, in my opinion, is that the left doesn't care and the conservatives cannot do anything about it. They were tired of beating their heads against the wall. The best we can hope for is to contain it.

[codeman671]

Leaving politics out of it... Here is my take:

We sold an island property last season that was on the higher end price-wise and tried to buy something more economical. We made offers on 2 properties and could not come to terms on either. One of them had some issues which we were willing to work around and made what I felt was a fair offer mid season. The sellers didn't even counter, they snubbed their noses at us even though they had no other activity in the pipeline. At the end of the season they did get a deal on the property and it closed for about $15k more than my offer. I was pretty irritated being that we were close enough that we could have made it work. I believe it was sold by the listing agent though instead of through a buyers agent. I'll get to that later.

The other one had been on the market for ages. We tried a few different times to work with the sellers on it and were stonewalled by their agent, who was working frantically in the background to find a buyer of their own, which they finally did. My last offer was higher than what they took elsewhere, but again, sold by the listing agent.

Sold by the listing agent to their own buyer= full commission

A few agents out there, one in particular, really work in their own interest and not the interest of their client. They will pass on a well qualified buyer working with in agent to take a deal that is solely theirs, sometimes for less money. And some are extremely lazy and wont even get on a boat to go out for showings.

I think the season in general was slow for sales, some of the properties that sold were leftover properties from the previous year or two. There was a lot of overpriced material that did not go anywhere and will probably pop back on this season. Some of the more unique properties were the ones that sold, such as entire islands. Ours was a very sweet (not biased at all ) property and we had an offer within 48 hours of listing. We were also priced fairly.

We will be back at it this spring, looking to buy.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Leaving politics out of it... Here is my take:

We sold an island property last season that was on the higher end price-wise and tried to buy something more economical. We made offers on 2 properties and could not come to terms on either. One of them had some issues which we were willing to work around and made what I felt was a fair offer mid season. The sellers didn't even counter, they snubbed their noses at us even though they had no other activity in the pipeline. At the end of the season they did get a deal on the property and it closed for about $15k more than my offer. I was pretty irritated being that we were close enough that we could have made it work. I believe it was sold by the listing agent though instead of through a buyers agent. I'll get to that later.

The other one had been on the market for ages. We tried a few different times to work with the sellers on it and were stonewalled by their agent, who was working frantically in the background to find a buyer of their own, which they finally did. My last offer was higher than what they took elsewhere, but again, sold by the listing agent.

Sold by the listing agent to their own buyer= full commission

A few agents out there, one in particular, really work in their own interest and not the interest of their client. They will pass on a well qualified buyer working with in agent to take a deal that is solely theirs, sometimes for less money. And some are extremely lazy and wont even get on a boat to go out for showings.

I think the season in general was slow for sales, some of the properties that sold were leftover properties from the previous year or two. There was a lot of overpriced material that did not go anywhere and will probably pop back on this season. Some of the more unique properties were the ones that sold, such as entire islands. Ours was a very sweet (not biased at all ) property and we had an offer within 48 hours of listing. We were also priced fairly.

We will be back at it this spring, looking to buy.

Sounds like Island Real Estate.

There are good agents out there and reputable agencies. Unfortunately the listing agents can get in the way of getting a deal done if they so choose even though they are obligated to look out for the best interest of their client not their commission check.

[LFODMatt]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Leaving politics out of it... Here is my take:

We sold an island property last season that was on the higher end price-wise and tried to buy something more economical. We made offers on 2 properties and could not come to terms on either. One of them had some issues which we were willing to work around and made what I felt was a fair offer mid season. The sellers didn't even counter, they snubbed their noses at us even though they had no other activity in the pipeline. At the end of the season they did get a deal on the property and it closed for about $15k more than my offer. I was pretty irritated being that we were close enough that we could have made it work. I believe it was sold by the listing agent though instead of through a buyers agent. I'll get to that later.

The other one had been on the market for ages. We tried a few different times to work with the sellers on it and were stonewalled by their agent, who was working frantically in the background to find a buyer of their own, which they finally did. My last offer was higher than what they took elsewhere, but again, sold by the listing agent.

Sold by the listing agent to their own buyer= full commission

A few agents out there, one in particular, really work in their own interest and not the interest of their client. They will pass on a well qualified buyer working with in agent to take a deal that is solely theirs, sometimes for less money. And some are extremely lazy and wont even get on a boat to go out for showings.

I think the season in general was slow for sales, some of the properties that sold were leftover properties from the previous year or two. There was a lot of overpriced material that did not go anywhere and will probably pop back on this season. Some of the more unique properties were the ones that sold, such as entire islands. Ours was a very sweet (not biased at all ) property and we had an offer within 48 hours of listing. We were also priced fairly.

We will be back at it this spring, looking to buy.

We had a similar situation a few years back but from the other end of the deal. Our agent "had a buyer" and didn't even list our property until we had a written offer in hand. In the end, the deal fell apart (for many reasons - only some of which I blame the agent), and we are happily still in the same property.

Early ice out this season?

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by LFODMatt

We had a similar situation a few years back but from the other end of the deal. Our agent "had a buyer" and didn't even list our property until we had a written offer in hand. In the end, the deal fell apart (for many reasons - only some of which I blame the agent), and we are happily still in the same property.

Early ice out this season?

If I had an agent that tried to pull a stunt like that - I'd first sever that relationship real fast. The is no point to even using an agent if they are playing both sides of the deal anyways, they are "supposed" to be a neutral party. So zero value add - unless they will take half the commission. Of course that defeats the purpose.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

If I had an agent that tried to pull a stunt like that - I'd first sever that relationship real fast. The is no point to even using an agent if they are playing both sides of the deal anyways, they are "supposed" to be a neutral party. So zero value add - unless they will take half the commission. Of course that defeats the purpose.

Sounds like we are all talking about the same person....

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

If I had an agent that tried to pull a stunt like that - I'd first sever that relationship real fast. The is no point to even using an agent if they are playing both sides of the deal anyways, they are "supposed" to be a neutral party. So zero value add - unless they will take half the commission. Of course that defeats the purpose.

Worse than that--agents represent the seller except when explicitly contracted as buyer's agents. This includes the vast majority of agents who help buyers look for houses to buy.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by Major

I agree it doesn't matter. The reason, in my opinion, is that the left doesn't care and the conservatives cannot do anything about it. They were tired of beating their heads against the wall. The best we can hope for is to contain it.

As an optimist, I hope we find a solution—I think we can all agree that deficit spending is not good.

I do want to point out, however, that Obama's deficits were created on purpose to aid the American recovery and that they were coming back down until Trump took office.

Finally, to get back to the OP, the strong economy has affected almost everything's prices—I'm looking at having kitchen and bathroom remodels and am being told to hold onto my hat when I get the estimates. My house has almost double in value in 13 years. What I'm most interested in seeing is how much things will "fall" in the next cycle.

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[Biggd]

When interest rates go up the economy will slow down. Not only is the government in extreme debt but Americans are also deep in debt. Everyone has already refinanced their debt at low rates. When rates go up there's no where to go to get cheap money.

[Major]

Yes, it is awesome. It is awesome to reward hard working people who save their money and invest in something when the time is right. Values of lakefront property, or vacation property in general, fluctuate wildly depending on the economy. It's been that way as long as I can remember. Some people buy high and sell low, some people buy low and sell high. It is childish to think that taking advantage of an economic downturn is depriving those individuals who invested high of their rightful reward. Those who bought high are adults and understood the risks involved. It is not our problem that they have to sell for a loss.

My wife and I are planning to take advantage of the next economic downturn, which may not happen for another four years or so. In the meantime, we will continue to save for our winter home in South Florida!

[tbonies]

Originally Posted by Sundancer320

Bernie will crash the economy and the property prices will drop like a stone so you can then step in a pickup a great property.

Funny. The Bern (and Warren... and Petey...) is unelectable so no need to worry about his impact on lake property. If beating Trump is the goal, Klobuchar should be the slam dunk candidate. She would beat him like a drum. But... the Democrats have ample opportunity to screw this up, as they usually do.

[thinkxingu]

Remember how awesome things were with Bush's economy? So awesome to buy things at fractions of their worth at the expense of those struggling.

Don't worry, it's coming back soon enough!

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[swnoel]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

So awesome to buy things at fractions of their worth at the expense of those struggling.

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That's been reality before I was born... people buy things they can't afford then lose it regularly. It's the fairy tale that everyone is college material and everyone should own their own home... both require effort and responsibility. By the way did anyone notice how many voted for free everything Bernie?

[Pineedles]

It is funny how real estate prices move in the Lakes Region. Lake cottage worth $1,000 in 1892 would sell for $1 million today. But in the late 1980s that place was worth only $250k. And in early 1960s only worth $25,000. Go figure.


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[Pineedles]

Getting back on topic, my illustration of appreciation of lake front property delivered a 5% annual yield after 128 years. About what I want my IRA to deliver after advisor fees. Not a bad investment, but there were slow periods and rocket periods in those years. I think we’re in a kind slow appreciation period right now, but who knows.


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[hemlock]

Thanks for lots of great,thoughtful responses to my original post.

In 1965 my grandfather bought what was the second lot of a subdivision sold on the non idlewild side of Cow. He was informed of its availability when he brought his television to the repair shop. I remember him saying that island land seemed to be around 1/3 the price of mainland. That is that he paid 3500 dollars for a 100 foot shore lot when mainland for the same frontage and 1/2 acre was around 10000.

He was a careful saver and paid cash. Not bad for a part time farmer and janitor at the local school. His legacy to his children grandchildren and now great great grandchild was a wonderful one.

[Orion]

Originally Posted by Pineedles

Getting back on topic, my illustration of appreciation of lake front property delivered a 5% annual yield after 128 years. About what I want my IRA to deliver after advisor fees. Not a bad investment, but there were slow periods and rocket periods in those years. I think we’re in a kind slow appreciation period right now, but who knows.p[/url]

But, unlike an investment account, you get to really enjoy a lakefront property investment while it appreciates. What’s that worth!

[chaseisland]

Priceless!!

[Descant]

To coin a phrase: "It's for the children".

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by chaseisland

Priceless!!

Back in 1982 I was transferred by Digital Equipment from Ohio to MA. When I left Mentor Ohio on Lake Erie I owned a beautiful 40' Flybridge Chris Craft Commander. Great boat. When I came to Boston I told my neighbor I was going to the Boston Boat show to buy another cabin cruiser. The neighbor said why buy a boat... you should go visit the lakes up in Maine and NH. So I did! I fell in love with Lake Winni. She went with me! I bought the camp and not the boat. Second best move I ever made. I fell in love with her too! The best move I ever made was to marry that beautiful and smart women next door.

[tis]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Back in 1982 I was transferred by Digital Equipment from Ohio to MA. When I left Mentor Ohio on Lake Erie I owned a beautiful 40' Flybridge Chris Craft Commander. Great boat. When I came to Boston I told my neighbor I was going to the Boston Boat show to buy another cabin cruiser. The neighbor said why buy a boat... you should go visit the lakes up in Maine and NH. So I did! I fell in love with Lake Winni. She went with me! I bought the camp and not the boat. Second best move I ever made. I fell in love with her too! The best move I ever made was to marry that beautiful and smart women next door.

I just love that story-I never heard it before! I love your camp too! We have often said we are glad you love it so much.

[chasedawg]

Originally Posted by tis

I just love that story-I never heard it before! I love your camp too! We have often said we are glad you love it so much.

Many thanks to you! We can't thank you enough.

[Biggd]

Originally Posted by chasedawg

Back in 1982 I was transferred by Digital Equipment from Ohio to MA. When I left Mentor Ohio on Lake Erie I owned a beautiful 40' Flybridge Chris Craft Commander. Great boat. When I came to Boston I told my neighbor I was going to the Boston Boat show to buy another cabin cruiser. The neighbor said why buy a boat... you should go visit the lakes up in Maine and NH. So I did! I fell in love with Lake Winni. She went with me! I bought the camp and not the boat. Second best move I ever made. I fell in love with her too! The best move I ever made was to marry that beautiful and smart women next door.

I met my wife at the Brickyard back in 1979. We will be married 40 years next year.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by Orion

But, unlike an investment account, you get to really enjoy a lakefront property investment while it appreciates. What’s that worth!

Priceless!

In the end calculating an ROI on property especially in NH with taxes the way they are, annual holding costs far exceed it's increase in value thus you're typically holding a loser purely from an investment perspective. The longer you hold the property the worse it gets. That's just a fact. So unless you get tons of enjoyment out of it, and use it a lot, it's a very costly place to park money for the long haul.

[TheTimeTraveler]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Priceless!

In the end calculating an ROI on property especially in NH with taxes the way they are, annual holding costs far exceed it's increase in value thus you're typically holding a loser purely from an investment perspective. The longer you hold the property the worse it gets. That's just a fact. So unless you get tons of enjoyment out of it, and use it a lot, it's a very costly place to park money for the long haul.

This may very well be true, however real estate is generally a very safe place to park your money (remember what happened with Polaroid, Wang, etc.).

Obviously a Bank is also a safe place to place your money if you can live with those very low but safe returns.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by TheTimeTraveler

This may very well be true, however real estate is generally a very safe place to park your money (remember what happened with Polaroid, Wang, etc.).

Obviously a Bank is also a safe place to place your money if you can live with those very low but safe returns.

Low returns are better than negative returns. So purely from a financial standpoint the bank is a better deal.

That said it's hard to enjoy a bank statement as a vacation or weekend getaway.

[jazzman]

There are a couple people fishing with property listed at 50%+ what it is probably worth on Barndoor. Real selling prices are up a good 30% in the past 5 years though. Nothing under 500k recently.

[Barney Bear]

There are properties on Bear Island with similar high asking prices. 🍋 💰 💰

[codeman671]

There was a lot of sales last season sub $500k, in fact most of the sales were in that range (a few on Welch, one on Mark, Bear, Little Bear, etc). There was a fair amount that didn't sell that were overpriced. I can think of at least 3 on Bear that fell into that category. I follow it quite closely.

Barndoor seems to have a following, and people that want to be close to Wolfeboro tend to pay to be there. Personally I want to be at the other end of the lake- Gilford, Meredith, Tuftonboro.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Low returns are better than negative returns. So purely from a financial standpoint the bank is a better deal.

Unless your money in the bank is earning more than the rate of inflation, (very rare with rates these days) wouldn't that be considered a "negative return"?

Real estate, while cyclic, seems to always go up in value in the long run...

Dan

[Descant]

If my money were in the bank, I would have to pay somebody to sit on their dock to watch the sunset. Most resorts that have sunsets like you post, Dan, are very expensive, plus expense to get there. Many don't even have a Tiki Bar. A diversified portfolio includes an amount of real estate and perhaps some Brunswick and maybe Caterpillar or Mercury. TIC.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Descant

If my money were in the bank, I would have to pay somebody to sit on their dock to watch the sunset. Most resorts that have sunsets like you post, Dan, are very expensive, plus expense to get there. Many don't even have a Tiki Bar. A diversified portfolio includes an amount of real estate and perhaps some Brunswick and maybe Caterpillar or Mercury. TIC.

I feel the rate of return on Winni sunsets is immeasurable!... The Tiki Bar comes in at a close second! Fishing, boating and snowmobiling are right up there as well! Some things you just can’t put a price tag on!

Dan

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

I feel the rate of return on Winni sunsets is immeasurable!... The Tiki Bar comes in at a close second! Fishing, boating and snowmobiling are right up there as well! Some things you just can’t put a price tag on!

Dan

Absolutely!!!

It's really hard to enjoy a bank\investment statement on weekends

[Barney Bear]

We are fortunate to have beeen able to watch beautiful sunrises and moonrises from our place on East Bear Island for fifty-two seasons with family and friends. A great investment indeed! 🐻

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Unless your money in the bank is earning more than the rate of inflation, (very rare with rates these days) wouldn't that be considered a "negative return"?

Real estate, while cyclic, seems to always go up in value in the long run...

Dan

Yes if interest rates fall below the rate of inflation over the life of the investment it would be no different than the illustration I'm making with real estate. The investment will gain value over time but will produce a negative return. Just as a piece of property's carrying costs, specifically taxes, on an annual basis exceeding the increase in "value".

[thinkxingu]

A friend of mine called me out on real estate being an "investment" (making money) some years back. After having done the math on a bunch of homes, his thesis was that once mortgage interest, taxes, repairs, upgrades, etc. are factored in, there is not much ROI.

Just thinking about my house, even though it's gone up 50% in 13 years, it's probably a wash based on what I owe and have put into it. And that's at 2.8% mortgage interest. At 5, I'd be under water.

There are many, many things in life that I'm willing to own out of pure emotion—a camp that allows me the lifestyle of Winni is just one of them.

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[The Real BigGuy]

Buying an apartment house, a two family, or such is an investment. Buying a lake house or camp is pure peace and relaxation.


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[CaptT820]

Island property used to be a good investment, probably not so much any more. Land can still be had for "reasonable" money on an island for high 90s or low 100s without a structure. We just bought raw land adjacent to our camp last year and we paid $120K for roughly 1/2 an acre. The asking price was $147K, which we obviously thought was too high.
A small camp with land is under agreement right now on the island for $325K, so camps and land can be had for "reasonable" money depending on when and where you are looking.

We have all the records for our island for when it was divested from a single corporate owner in the late 1960s. Raw land varied between $3000 and $6500 a parcel back then for roughly 1/2 an acre.

[The Real BigGuy]

My father-in-law used trailer his boat for family day visits to the lake and they often ended up on the west side of Barndoor at a nice sandy spot. One day a gentleman walked up and asked if my father-in-law was interested in buying the lot. Asking price was $1200. My F-I-L said no, he was only interested in using it, not buying it. What a shrewd real estate investor he was!


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[ursa minor]

Our saying for last 20 odd years that we've had our own place has been "it's worthless because it will never be for sale". The latest valuation / tax bill is not going down well, this is becoming an expensive hobby if looked at in a clinical cost per weekend / vacation week basis.

We were lucky enough to buy the land / start the long process of building the house before prices went truly crazy and also did a lot of the work ourselves so that part is OK but it's only seasonal access and the gap between island and mainland values is not as big as it once was. There's no way we could do the same thing today at least on Winnipesaukee. I'm sure I'll feel a lot better in a few months when I'm sitting on the dock watching sunsets and visiting with our awesome neighbors.

[8gv]

Never do the math!

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by ursa minor

Our saying for last 20 odd years that we've had our own place has been "it's worthless because it will never be for sale". The latest valuation / tax bill is not going down well, this is becoming an expensive hobby if looked at in a clinical cost per weekend / vacation week basis.

We were lucky enough to buy the land / start the long process of building the house before prices went truly crazy and also did a lot of the work ourselves so that part is OK but it's only seasonal access and the gap between island and mainland values is not as big as it once was. There's no way we could do the same thing today at least on Winnipesaukee. I'm sure I'll feel a lot better in a few months when I'm sitting on the dock watching sunsets and visiting with our awesome neighbors.

Our thinking is similar, though I think I'd say "priceless"

We bought 5 years ago, approximately 15 years after we could first afford to do so. For most of those 15 years, we said it would be "ridiculous" to buy--"just think of the awesome family vacations we can fund with the money saved on property taxes" was our reasoning. We only bought when I began to feel my mortality.

So glad we made the "foolish" decision to buy--it's the best money we ever spent, I only wish we had not been so rational in our younger days.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Our thinking is similar, though I think I'd say "priceless"

We bought 5 years ago, approximately 15 years after we could first afford to do so. For most of those 15 years, we said it would be "ridiculous" to buy--"just think of the awesome family vacations we can fund with the money saved on property taxes" was our reasoning. We only bought when I began to feel my mortality.

So glad we made the "foolish" decision to buy--it's the best money we ever spent, I only wish we had not been so rational in our younger days.

So, we sacrifice a little. This isn't a 5-7 year program like buying a primary residence and moving a lot. This is for children and grandchildren. To be a fly on the wall, check out the "Childhood memories" thread. If you or the kids can't afford it for awhile, don't sell, lease. Our neighbors did that many years ago for several seasons. Now there are several generations flying in from all over to enjoy each other and the family camp at prices they can all afford.

[LIforrelaxin]

Set the political post aside, this thread is interesting.

I believe one of the reasons island properties have seen a rise in sale price lately is that the inventory of camps on the mainland is dwindling. Island properties for the most part are just that camps.

What a majority of people seem to want to do these days, is buy a property and then build their version of paradise. When main land property sells for for 500K to 1M, the feasibility of doing so becomes hard for most. Not that buying a place for 250K-450K make it that much more palatable, but it opens the door for a larger audience.

Top that all off with the fact that we now have sport boats in the 20-30 ft. range which make getting to an island seem less risky for most. 50 years ago when boat sizes on a lake averaged less then 20' the "adventure" to get back and forth to an island property had a different appearance.

[The Real BigGuy]

Bond market has been signaling recession for close to a year. I wonder if there is a new normal?


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[The Real BigGuy]

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[codeman671]

Just talked to a local bank that I have worked with for island financing in the past. I am being told it will be a tough season for those looking to finance. Rates will be high and percentage down will be increased. Loans of less than $350k will now require 25% down and over $350k will be 30% down.

I looked into a refi on a boat slip, they are only offering 50% ltv and 6.11%.

It will be interesting to see what this does for resales.

[rsmlp]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Just talked to a local bank that I have worked with for island financing in the past. I am being told it will be a tough season for those looking to finance. Rates will be high and percentage down will be increased. Loans of less than $350k will now require 25% down and over $350k will be 30% down.

I looked into a refi on a boat slip, they are only offering 50% ltv and 6.11%.

It will be interesting to see what this does for resales.

Probably need a bigger down payment but rates still very low.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mo...oan-2020-04-23

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by rsmlp

Probably need a bigger down payment but rates still very low.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mo...oan-2020-04-23

Keep in mind that typical mortgage companies won’t touch an island property. These are typically funded as portfolio loans by local banks. Normal rates and programs found online with companies like Chase, Rocket Mortgage,
Etc don’t apply.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Keep in mind that typical mortgage companies won’t touch an island property. These are typically funded as portfolio loans by local banks. Normal rates and programs found online with companies like Chase, Rocket Mortgage,
Etc don’t apply.

This is the same with condo campgrounds like Arcadia, Squam Lakes Resort, etc. where interest rates can be 7% plus and often variable.

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[Descant]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Keep in mind that typical mortgage companies won’t touch an island property. These are typically funded as portfolio loans by local banks. Normal rates and programs found online with companies like Chase, Rocket Mortgage,
Etc don’t apply.

Spoke to a rep from People's United Bank. Agreed, it's all portfolio because these loans can't be resold. Could be 20% down. Easiest, and best rate might be a home equity loan instead of a high interest rate mortgage. Boat slips will probably have a fire sale next year, so, be ready.

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Descant

Spoke to a rep from People's United Bank. Agreed, it's all portfolio because these loans can't be resold. Could be 20% down. Easiest, and best rate might be a home equity loan instead of a high interest rate mortgage. Boat slips will probably have a fire sale next year, so, be ready.

I am surprised, I use People’s for my commercial banking and last time I checked they didn’t do it. My quote came from Bank of NH.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am surprised, I use People’s for my commercial banking and last time I checked they didn’t do it. My quote came from Bank of NH.

Call Lynn at (603)424-0084. That's her Merrimack office, but she works for People's branches all over the state, and northern MA. Of course, the branches are closed for walk in business right now, but they are staffed. She just did a couple of re-fi's for me. I asked her about the island stuff earlier today. Top notch about returning calls.

[Barney Bear]

Another East Bear Island property, located near the East Bear Island mail dock, is now on the market. We will miss our longtime neighbors. 🐻

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Barney Bear

Another East Bear Island property, located near the East Bear Island mail dock, is now on the market. We will miss our longtime neighbors. 🐻

Which one? I don’t see any new ones on in the last few days.

[lakershaker]

I refinanced my Rattlesnake property with Webster Bank three (I think) years ago. Great rates (I have a 2.75% fixed rate 15-year), had also used Peoples in the past. Both banks had great service and the whole process was very easy. I also got a Webster HELOC in case I need extra liquidity - that was Prime -75. They had no problem with it being an island property.

[Barney Bear]

The property is 136 Bear Island. I just received notification last week that this property is on the market. However, the listing indicates that it has been for sale for 201 days. 🐻

[MAXUM]

It went on the market last year.

Price is way to high. Nice spot though.

[WeLoveTheLake]

Why would you want to buy a vacation home with borrowed money, especially now that stable genius took all the incentives away.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

Why would you want to buy a vacation home with borrowed money, especially now that stable genius took all the incentives away.

I dunno, maybe it's because people like me and most everyone else in America would never be able to pay cash?

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[Biggd]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

Why would you want to buy a vacation home with borrowed money, especially now that stable genius took all the incentives away.

I don't think people buy second homes for financial incentives. There are much better financial investments out there than the vacation home market.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

Why would you want to buy a vacation home with borrowed money, especially now that stable genius took all the incentives away.

My incentive was to have a place to spend with family and friends, not to shelter from taxes.

[Descant]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

Why would you want to buy a vacation home with borrowed money, especially now that stable genius took all the incentives away.

1. A family center for three or four generations is priceless.
2. If the second generation gets it for free, that's great.
3. If you then leave an endowment in the trust that owns it, you've provided for many generations
4. At today's interest rates it may make more sense to borrow than to take money out of your portfolio and pay capital gains taxes.

[WeLoveTheLake]

It looks like I may have offended some people, that was not my goal.
Sorry about that.

I personally would never go into debt for pleasure. That’s just me.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

It looks like I may have offended some people, that was not my goal.
Sorry about that.

I personally would never go into debt for pleasure. ThatÂ’s just me.

I feel the same way about toys such as boats and motorcycles. When we bought our vacation home, it was not an option for us.

[Formula260SS]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

It looks like I may have offended some people, that was not my goal.
Sorry about that.

I personally would never go into debt for pleasure. That’s just me.

That's great your in that situation - not the case for most though. I'm happy every month to stroke the mortgage check for our place. I think the measure is more in your personal balance sheet at the end of the day.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

Why would you want to buy a vacation home with borrowed money, especially now that stable genius took all the incentives away.

Well in "pre-virus" times using someone else's money at 3% payback then investing your money for a minimum and conservative 6% return makes sense...

Dan

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

Why would you want to buy a vacation home with borrowed money, especially now that stable genius took all the incentives away.

Forget the money for the moment.

Our kids were born in 1970 (AK) & 1973(ID). My folks bought this property in 1976. Previously, they rented in Glendale since the 60's.

We lived in ID for around 3 yrs or so, LA 7yrs, MA 8 yrs, NY 6 yrs. Then we moved here. This place was a common memory for all my kids' growing up years, regardless of where we lived. It was vacations, and when we lived close enough many weekends year round.

We're not alone. We have several friends who have similar experiences. Going 'up the 'saukee" was a huge part of the kids growing up, and that is priceless.

Borrowing money to buy a vacation / secondary home is not necessarily an investment financially, but more for memories and life experience.

Dave

[LakeTimes]

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

Why would you want to buy a vacation home with borrowed money, especially now that stable genius took all the incentives away.

Originally Posted by WeLoveTheLake

I personally would never go into debt for pleasure. That’s just me.

I hope your comment is more about financial responsibility (which you are demonstrating I suppose) vs financial IQ, which seems to be questionable at best...

If you can't afford a second home, then one shouldn't buy one. Not sure who would disagree with that. Those are the ones who lose their homes. None the less, you are also 'investing' in a property that should appreciate over time and build you additional equity (however I would technically say houses that don't produce positive cashflow via income are actually liabilities and not assets which I'm sure will start a firestorm of debate here).

That being said, most people (and by most I'm guessing 99%+ of people) can not afford to buy a second home on Lake Winnipesaukee with just cash. If you have financial IQ, I would argue why you would ever do this anyways. With rates (not just current, but for the past 10+ years at least) you would be FAR better off putting your money into other investments getting a much higher rate of return. Call me crazy, but I even contemplated borrowing against the equity in my house and dumping that into the market weeks ago (was targeting AMAZON when it was down around $1700, but then I decided against it due to timing to get the money, busy with work. etc. etc. etc.). I know Amazon is only going to go up up and up quite a bit over time - IE: now at $2300 per share. Should have put my money where my mouth is as I would have been somewhat happy right now and VERY happy in a few years :-)

Back to the main point - I just bought on the lake a few years ago. Could I have paid cash - sure. Did I - no. I put down what I needed to get the lowerst rate I could and to of course avoid PMI and then fixed it up with cash (Studs on up - I did all the work myself and created a solid amount of equity in doing so). That being said, I am very thankful and fortunate for the position that my wife and I have put ourselves in and that we were able to do so.

The memories we will make with our friends, family, extended friends are priceless in our eyes. Who knows the future of the house generationally (we want a bigger one with more BR's when we can afford it), but it was one of the best decisions we could have made Worth every penny in our eyes.

For anyone questioning if it's the right decision to buy a second home with 'borrowed money,' if you can afford it and you love the lake, you will look back as it being one of the best decisions you could have made. Worst-case scenario - the lake wasn't for you or you need to get out of it - lake properties are rather desired and I'm confident you will make money on the sale of the home and move on without any major issue years down the line.

CHEERS to what will hopefully be another amazing summer with family and friends!

[codeman671]

Originally Posted by Descant

Call Lynn at (603)424-0084. That's her Merrimack office, but she works for People's branches all over the state, and northern MA. Of course, the branches are closed for walk in business right now, but they are staffed. She just did a couple of re-fi's for me. I asked her about the island stuff earlier today. Top notch about returning calls.

I did call her, thank you for the tip. Didn't realize the correlation