Water pump at the dock?

codeman671 · 03-11-2007, 03:08 PM

I am looking to set up a hose near our dock for rinsing off boats, toys, etc. I have thought of using a sump pump but without a pressure switch of some sort the pump would burn out if it is not constantly pumping (nozzle on the hose would restrict flow until needed). I could run a line down from the house and set up a hose this way, but figure there has to be a specialty pump or some other ingenius way to handle this which is easier than tying into the house and trenching 60-70' to the dock.

Any thoughts/experience?

Sunrise Point · 03-11-2007, 03:50 PM

If you don't need much water pressure, just a steady stream for rinsing, use a transfer pump (about $9.00) that you can hook up to a cordless drill.

ApS · 03-11-2007, 05:31 PM

You're only recirculating lake water—not paying for it. Why not just eliminate the nozzle and let the sump pump run? BTW: Sump pumps are only OK. They're not all that powerful.

My BIL draws lake water using a big bucket with a rope attached: eliminates any shock hazard beside the dock. As for myself, I've nearly completed a hot-water-only copper line to the dock. From experience of leaving a hose in direct sun, I know not to use a metal nozzle!

SIKSUKR · 03-12-2007, 10:19 AM

You'll need to run power but we always had a well pump set-up at the water.Built a small enclosure for it and drained it in for the winter.

loony · 03-12-2007, 11:04 AM

Try a relative low volume inexpensive submersable sump pump with a hose fitting. Its the kind that's open in the bottom and can draw water down to 1/4" depth. It costs about $40-$60.
I use one to draw water from a stream for irrigation. I placed it in a milk crate about 1/4 filled with small stones, and stones surrounding it to filter out any sediment. I carefully dropped whole thing in the stream and plug it in to use it.
Thinking back, a bucket drilled with holes and partialy filled with stones would work better- and be easier to drop into the stream. The crate was all I had at the time.....

codeman671 · 03-12-2007, 03:20 PM

If I went with a submersible pump I was going to hang it from underneath the dock, well off the bottom so that I did not pick up debris. If I go with a small submersible though they do not have a pressure switch to shut it off I think that the pump would burn out unless the hose was running constantly (unless power was turned off).

I would need more pressure than a drill and a transfer pump would create.

The well pump thought may work as they do have pressure switches to turn it off.

ITD · 03-12-2007, 05:49 PM

I have a shallow well pump with a tank in an enclosure. Use it to wash down the boat and water the garden. Initial investment was probably higher (came with the house) but it works great and can run sprinklers.

TomC · 03-12-2007, 06:00 PM

From time to time you can get these from Harbor Freight on sale for as little as $69. These 1 hp pumps complete with tank are great for this purpose. I have one to use for all sorts of applications (vehicle washing, plant watering, etc.) Right now this pump is $99 on their site:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47906

Mee-n-Mac · 03-12-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

If I go with a small submersible though they do not have a pressure switch to shut it off I think that the pump would burn out unless the hose was running constantly (unless power was turned off).

Couldn't you just put the pump power through an on/off switch located down at the dock ?

Coolbreeze · 03-13-2007, 07:02 AM

How about a bucket with a 15' rope attached to it. It will give you 3 gal a minute (depending on how fast you go) and it will prevent you from getting electrocuted!

RLW · 03-13-2007, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codeman671

I am looking to set up a hose near our dock for rinsing off boats, toys, etc. I have thought of using a sump pump but without a pressure switch of some sort the pump would burn out if it is not constantly pumping (nozzle on the hose would restrict flow until needed). Any thoughts/experience?

All the sump pumps that I have seen/used there isn't enough pressure to use a nozzle with.

codeman671 · 03-13-2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

Couldn't you just put the pump power through an on/off switch located down at the dock ?

I could and would with a shallow well pump as suggested, but a normal sump pump does not have a pressure switch built in. I am told that if I put a hose and a nozzle on it, unless the water is constantly running out the nozzle it will burn out the pump. I tried it last year to no avail, not to mention the pressure was not good.

SIKSUKR · 03-13-2007, 09:16 AM

You need to have a tank along with the pump.These setups have the pressure switch built in.They can run any hose with a nozzle.This is almost the same setup I have in my house.It's a 1 hp pump with a tank that has a bladder in it.You'll need one with a bladder or the pump will cycle constantly as you can't compress water.(Also an indication that your bladder is ruptured)I just helped my sister install one at her waterfront place last summer.Pretty simple if you have some mechanical skills.

fatlazyless · 03-13-2007, 05:36 PM

Sunday, the spring warm-up told me to pull the plug after a two month run. It ran and ran and ran and ran for about two months, all winter, hung by two lines about one foot below the water surface, keeping the dock and boatlift ice free......the poor man's open-water circulator, it's the Lowe's $64.00-1/6hp-2amp pump.

No on-off switch...very low tech...just plug it in and it works....always....check the intake screen on the bottom once a month or so for leaves. A garden hose can be attached to the top.

Surprisingly, the 1/6hp model weighs much more than the more costly 1/4 and 1/3hp models which suggests it has a cast iron construction, or something, as opposed to all light weight plastic. By the way, breaking off the ground prong makes it unreturnable at Lowe's.

For just $99.00, www.harborfreight.com in San Diego was selling a shallow well pump unit that includes a 1/2hp 110v pump, 10 gal horizontal pressurized tank, and pressure switch, all in one assembled unit, color brite blue. Freight was only ten dollars for the cheapest, 8 day, FedEx ground rate. Couldn't resist that price, so I bought one last Fall but have not used it, yet. Another lawn irrigation project in the works!

codeman671 · 03-13-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Sunday, the spring warm-up told me to pull the plug after a two month run. It ran and ran and ran and ran for about two months, all winter, hung by two lines about one foot below the water surface, keeping the dock and boatlift ice free......the poor man's open-water circulator, it's the Lowe's $64.00-1/6hp-2amp pump.

If you need more ice broken up around your dock I can swing by with the airboat again, I am sure your neighbor would love to see me stop by for another visit!

I am going to try one of those shallow water pumps, I just need to figure a way to conceal it so it is hidden and protected. Depending on the draw I may just dig a trench to the house and hide it under my deck, running the intake and exit lines down the same trench.

jrc · 03-13-2007, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

.... By the way, breaking off the ground prong makes it unreturnable at Lowe's....

Are you sure you want to mess around with the grounding of a pump that you have submerged?

All kidding aside, a cast iron pump submerged in the lake without a ground, is a huge shock hazard to swimmers, or anyone or anything in the water near it.

fatlazyless · 03-14-2007, 07:53 AM

Not having a ground was not a problem in the winter. Besides, the outlet is not grounded so not having a ground prong makes no difference. The pump is all plastic outside, with cast iron inside and is indeed an electric hazard for a person in the water or on the all aluminum dock.

For powering my boatlift, I went with a 12 volt battery, the type used with electric trolling motors, as I didn't want to run a 110v supply wire along an all aluminum dock.

I always try to be very safety consious when fiddling with electricity, gasoline, soldiering with a propane torch, ladders, chain saw, poison ivy, water safety and rattle snakes, and any other Meredith home owner hazards. Even with health insurance, it's just a lot cheaper to stay safe and avoid the very expensive ambulance service and the very expensive hospital emergency room.

Watching the Johnny Carson show back in the 1970's made a big impression on me when a guest comedian showed up in a wheel chair. Johnny: "What happened to you, we haven't seen you for about a year?" Guest: "I was cleaning the roof gutters on the house with a ladder." Not very funny, no kidding.

Bear Islander · 03-14-2007, 12:31 PM

I hold a master electricians license and I would never put 120 volt wiring in or near the water of a swim area. Grounding doesn't make it safe, nor does a plastic shell. If the water finds its way into contact with live wiring someone can be killed. It will only take a slit or crack in the wire insulation even if the pump housing is waterproof.

Any wiring at a swim area such as for dock lights must be 30 volts or less. I put 120 volts into the water for an aquatherm but it's only when nobody will be in the water.

SIKSUKR · 03-14-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I hold a master electricians license and I would never put 120 volt wiring in or near the water of a swim area. Grounding doesn't make it safe, nor does a plastic shell. If the water finds its way into contact with live wiring someone can be killed. It will only take a slit or crack in the wire insulation even if the pump housing is waterproof.

Any wiring at a swim area such as for dock lights must be 30 volts or less. I put 120 volts into the water for an aquatherm but it's only when nobody will be in the water.

I think that's a little extreme.Should we all remove our 120 volt pool pumps in every pool in the country?I think not.If it's protected with a GFI breaker,there's very little chance of electricution.

RLW · 03-14-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

.If it's protected with a GFI breaker,there's very little chance of electricution.

These units (GFI Breakers) are not infallible and do break (Not Trip) and quite offend need to be replaced. I sure hate to put one to a test.

islandAl · 03-14-2007, 04:00 PM

There was a change in the requirements for all GFCI's manufactured since July 2006. UL allowed for two versions, one to sound an alarm if the GFCI components fail but continue to operate; and the second for the GFCI not to pass any current (trip) if for any reason the components fail (in my opinion, this is the better way).
This is not the way they were allowed to operate in the past. Fail components and only when you checked the test button would you know.
All manufacturers had to also beef up the components to higher standards than prior.
Check first as companies are allowed to sell everything made prior to the cutoff date and several manufacturers that produce overseas made a lot of inventory before the change and there still may be some left on store shelves.
While I do not know every code, I doubt if any allow 120 volt devices to be in the pool. The lights are or should be low voltage and all the pool pumps I know are outside the pool and pumping the water thru pipes. Very different than submersible sump pump were no living thing is expected to be in the water.

RLW · 03-14-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by islandAl

There was a change in the requirements for all GFCI's manufactured since July 2006. UL allowed for two versions, one to sound an alarm if the GFCI components fail but continue to operate; and the second for the GFCI not to pass any current (trip) if for any reason the components fail (in my opinion, this is the better way).

I would hate to be out at the water and the audible alarm sounds inside on the GFIC Breaker and/or GFI plug, which ever is audible as I sure wouldn't hear it going off. I believe that would even be the case in a home as the electrical panel is usually in the basement off in a corner and again, who would hear it?

Bear Islander · 03-14-2007, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

I think that's a little extreme.Should we all remove our 120 volt pool pumps in every pool in the country?I think not.If it's protected with a GFI breaker,there's very little chance of electricution.

I have never seen a pool pump underwater inside a pool. If I ever do I will call the local electrical inspector.

I'm sure the precautions that come with a sump pump (the thing we never read) will say don't get in the water with one.

GFCIs are great, but I would not trust the life of a child to one. That's like not using a seat belt because the air bag will catch me.

fatlazyless · 03-14-2007, 10:19 PM

This is slightly off topic, but that has never stopped me before. The world's greatest store, the Plymouth Wal-Mart sells a Black & Decker dc to ac converter for about $28.44 which goes into a cigarette lighter in a car or a boat and will produce up to 100 watts ac with a standard grounded outlet receptical. (No way this could really be grounded?) I was impressed! 100 watts is enough to run lots of different things, like a small crock pot, or a 'puter.

Orion · 03-14-2007, 10:35 PM

A 120v device submerged in the lake will have no effect on swimmers since the current is discharged and dissipated into the water which is a huge ground. The only way someone could get a shock is if someone handed them a wet pump with a leaky wire while they were standing in the water, thus completing a path to ground (the lake). This would also trip a GFCI CB. We have a sumberged 240v well pump as our water supply and I've actually only felt a slight tingle when touching the pump while running. I know that the wiring on those pumps is not watertight.

ApS · 03-15-2007, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"...For just $99.00, www.harborfreight.com in San Diego was selling a shallow well pump unit that includes a 1/2hp 110v pump, 10 gal horizontal pressurized tank, and pressure switch, all in one assembled unit, color brite blue. Freight was only ten dollars for the cheapest, 8 day, FedEx ground rate. Couldn't resist that price, so I bought one last Fall but have not used it, yet. Another lawn irrigation project in the works...!

I have two of these—but not because they're reliable! I'll buy another, but so far it seems I'm really just renting them.

The first had intermittant running problems, and totally failed to work reliably beyond its six-month warrantee period.

The second pump (a slightly different model) can't make up its mind whether to pressurize water at 25# or 60#, but at least has lasted eighteen months.

The motors run fine and the bladder-tanks are fine, but both have a pressure detecting problem: adjustment attempts have convinced me that these pumps have minds of their own. Unplugged, that first pump now serves as a passive bladder-tank—now connected to my anvil-reliable, US-made, antique pump.

On the up-side, they're still bright blue in color, and the occasional over-pressures have indicated where the PVC pipe joints need work!

Bear Islander · 03-15-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion

A 120v device submerged in the lake will have no effect on swimmers since the current is discharged and dissipated into the water which is a huge ground. The only way someone could get a shock is if someone handed them a wet pump with a leaky wire while they were standing in the water, thus completing a path to ground (the lake). This would also trip a GFCI CB. We have a sumberged 240v well pump as our water supply and I've actually only felt a slight tingle when touching the pump while running. I know that the wiring on those pumps is not watertight.

Your comments are incorrect and dangerous. Someone could read your post and think you know what you are talking about. I think you should delete or edit your post.

There are things that must be kept away from each other for safety. Gasoline and fire is one example, high voltage and people in the water is another. Why use a 120 volt appliance in a swimming area when there are plenty of 12 and 24 volt models available that will be totally safe?

Try the link below to see what the Red Cross and the CPSC think about electricity and water.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml03/03125.html

jrc · 03-15-2007, 10:33 AM

I think the real world is somewhere between Bear Islander and Orion. First of all, there are plenty of submersible 120v devices that are very safe when wired properly and used properly. Many underwater swimming pool lights are 120v, many sump pumps are submersible. But you can't count on the water for a safe ground. Fresh water is less conductive than humans. So if your swimming in fresh water and the electricity is traveling through the water, it can travel through you instead of the water.

My original point was that cutting off the ground lug was a bad idea. It's a safety feature, it doesn't provide absolute protection. Removing it cannot help you.

http://www.recreonics.com/hayward_underwater_lights.htm

Orion · 03-15-2007, 11:51 AM

Hmmmm, for example, I wonder how on earth a diver survives doing underwater arc welding at 300, 400, or even 1000 amps.

But, your point is well taken BI. One should exercise care with voltages and water, but it is not as cut and dry an answer as many people think.

SIKSUKR · 03-15-2007, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

I have never seen a pool pump underwater inside a pool. If I ever do I will call the local electrical inspector.

I'm sure the precautions that come with a sump pump (the thing we never read) will say don't get in the water with one.

GFCIs are great, but I would not trust the life of a child to one. That's like not using a seat belt because the air bag will catch me.

If you have ever let your child swim in ANY pool then you already have. Every pool pump is virtually submersed anyway.They are almost always outside in a wet environment and most certainly connected to the pool water through the pump itself.Even though my impeller is plastic,it's connected to a metal shaft from the motor.There is almost no more margin of safety between a pool pump and a submersible pump.If you believe that you are protected more from a nonsubmersible pump then you don't understand basic electric principles.

Bear Islander · 03-15-2007, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orion

Hmmmm, for example, I wonder how on earth a diver survives doing underwater arc welding at 300, 400, or even 1000 amps.

But, your point is well taken BI. One should exercise care with voltages and water, but it is not as cut and dry an answer as many people think.

Underwater welding, or wet welding, is done with high current, low voltage DC power. The open circuit voltage is in the 10 to 50 volt range to protect the diver.

Low voltage appliances are cheap, easy to find and very safe. There is no sane reason to run 120 volts into the family swim area.

ITD · 03-15-2007, 12:55 PM

Sorry, I have to err on the side of caution here, a pool pump motor does not reside under water and is completely isolated so that no one can touch it (usually inside of some type of housing). Also its power cord is not in the water.(at least not intentionally). A submersible pump any where near where a kid can swim to it and grab hold is a bad idea, I've been zinged before by a submersible pump in a sump, learned my lesson quickly that day.

jrc · 03-15-2007, 08:39 PM

Caution is all well in good, but it's not really practical to run high power devices using low voltage DC. A 2 HP motor would draw over 100 amps using 12 volts. That would require huge wires. Millions of homes have submersible sump pumps, and people are not electrocuted everytime the basement floods. The link shows a typical pool pump. A small ceramic seal keeps the water out of the electric motor. Every few years that seal will fail, water will gush into the motor and the GFI will trip. If your pump and pool are correctly grounded and bonded, swimmers will not be injured by this failure. I had a similar pool pump for 15 years. I can change that seal blind-folded.

http://www.poolpumpandfiltersupersto...pumps_home.htm

fatlazyless · 03-15-2007, 09:44 PM

While it may not be happening here in New Hampshire, it is pretty common in Boston for people to break off the ground prong on power tools because the outlet has no ground hole and they have no adapter, so snap, off with the prong. If someone, never ever myself, wanted to return a drill or something with the prong broke off, back to Lowe's after using it for two months, they'd be out of luck. The broken prong is usually a 'heck, this plug don't be fitting the outlet I'll just bust it off' or 'heck, I ain't got no adapter' type of dumb move. Capice!

By the way, three prong adapters are not legal in Canada. Supposedly, Canadian Customs will confiscate these 79 cent grounding adapters.

Island Lover · 03-16-2007, 08:25 AM

Hi jrc

Why would you need to put a 2 horsepower pool pump underwater in a lakeside swim area?

I'm sure that properly installed near a pool they are very safe, but a high voltage submersible pump underwater in a swim area is a different story.
The idea of running a live high voltage wire into a the water where I swim seems questionable at best. I don't need a Darwin Award!

jrc · 03-16-2007, 10:21 AM

Sorry, I got off on a tangent with the pool pumps and lights.

This originally started with codeman talking about using a sump pump as a washdown pump on his dock, that's likely a submersible 120 volt pump. It wouldn't be practical to use 12 volt pump.

My point was that you can use high voltage, submersible devices safely. But to be safe they have to be wired and installed correctly. Cutting off ground lugs defeats one of the safety features. I know it happens, all my Dad tools have the lugs removed.

I'm done beating this dead horse.

Island Lover · 03-16-2007, 10:40 AM

All kinds of things are available for 12 volt power for boats and RVs. You can even get hair dryers, coffee makers and mixers.

A 12 volt washdown pump is the best answer to the original question. They come in many sizes and pressures, will not burn out when the flow is cut off by the nozzle and are SAFE in a swim area.

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|51|299222|315122&id=121320

ITD · 03-16-2007, 12:47 PM

The part of this equation that makes the pool pump vs submersible pump argument moot is the cord, a pool pump cord is not supposed to go in the pool water period. Where a submersible pump cord goes in the water to be pumped by design. A kid can't swim up to and grab a pool pump. A kid could swim up to and grab a submersible pump. The pool pumps you show, if they spring a leak the water will dribble out the cooling vents. A submersible pump will be immersed in the water. Using a submersible pump near swimmers is not a good idea, even with a GFI, which have been known to fail, that's why they come with test buttons.

Cow Man · 03-27-2007, 04:32 PM

Probably the simplest, safest and best way albeit more expensive is to keep the pump and electrical on land and run a hose to the dock. Attach the hose to a pressure washer (<$200) and voila plenty of pressure and the option of adding degreasers, deck wash, etc, (environmentally safe brands, of course).

03-11-2007, 03:08 PM	#1
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,360 Thanks: 210 Thanked 764 Times in 448 Posts	Water pump at the dock? I am looking to set up a hose near our dock for rinsing off boats, toys, etc. I have thought of using a sump pump but without a pressure switch of some sort the pump would burn out if it is not constantly pumping (nozzle on the hose would restrict flow until needed). I could run a line down from the house and set up a hose this way, but figure there has to be a specialty pump or some other ingenius way to handle this which is easier than tying into the house and trenching 60-70' to the dock. Any thoughts/experience?

03-11-2007, 03:50 PM	#2
Sunrise Point Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Meredith Center / Winnisquam Posts: 250 Thanks: 87 Thanked 34 Times in 21 Posts	Try this... If you don't need much water pressure, just a steady stream for rinsing, use a transfer pump (about $9.00) that you can hook up to a cordless drill.

03-11-2007, 05:31 PM	#3
ApS Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida (Sebring & Keys), Wolfeboro Posts: 5,788 Thanks: 2,085 Thanked 742 Times in 532 Posts	You're only recirculating lake water—not paying for it. Why not just eliminate the nozzle and let the sump pump run? BTW: Sump pumps are only OK. They're not all that powerful. My BIL draws lake water using a big bucket with a rope attached: eliminates any shock hazard beside the dock. As for myself, I've nearly completed a hot-water-only copper line to the dock. From experience of leaving a hose in direct sun, I know not to use a metal nozzle! __________________ Every MP who enters Winter Harbor will pass by my porch of 67 years...

03-12-2007, 10:19 AM	#4
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	You'll need to run power but we always had a well pump set-up at the water.Built a small enclosure for it and drained it in for the winter. __________________ SIKSUKR

03-12-2007, 06:00 PM	#8
TomC Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lakes Region Posts: 547 Thanks: 9 Thanked 29 Times in 20 Posts	shallow well pumps... From time to time you can get these from Harbor Freight on sale for as little as $69. These 1 hp pumps complete with tank are great for this purpose. I have one to use for all sorts of applications (vehicle washing, plant watering, etc.) Right now this pump is $99 on their site: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47906

03-12-2007, 11:04 AM	#5
loony Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts	Try a relative low volume inexpensive submersable sump pump with a hose fitting. Its the kind that's open in the bottom and can draw water down to 1/4" depth. It costs about $40-$60. I use one to draw water from a stream for irrigation. I placed it in a milk crate about 1/4 filled with small stones, and stones surrounding it to filter out any sediment. I carefully dropped whole thing in the stream and plug it in to use it. Thinking back, a bucket drilled with holes and partialy filled with stones would work better- and be easier to drop into the stream. The crate was all I had at the time.....

03-12-2007, 03:20 PM	#6
codeman671 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,360 Thanks: 210 Thanked 764 Times in 448 Posts	If I went with a submersible pump I was going to hang it from underneath the dock, well off the bottom so that I did not pick up debris. If I go with a small submersible though they do not have a pressure switch to shut it off I think that the pump would burn out unless the hose was running constantly (unless power was turned off). I would need more pressure than a drill and a transfer pump would create. The well pump thought may work as they do have pressure switches to turn it off.

03-12-2007, 05:49 PM	#7
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	I have a shallow well pump with a tank in an enclosure. Use it to wash down the boat and water the garden. Initial investment was probably higher (came with the house) but it works great and can run sprinklers.

03-13-2007, 07:02 AM	#10
Coolbreeze Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 332 Thanks: 0 Thanked 51 Times in 26 Posts	How about a bucket with a 15' rope attached to it. It will give you 3 gal a minute (depending on how fast you go) and it will prevent you from getting electrocuted!

03-13-2007, 09:16 AM	#13
SIKSUKR Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 5,075 Thanks: 215 Thanked 903 Times in 509 Posts	You need to have a tank along with the pump.These setups have the pressure switch built in.They can run any hose with a nozzle.This is almost the same setup I have in my house.It's a 1 hp pump with a tank that has a bladder in it.You'll need one with a bladder or the pump will cycle constantly as you can't compress water.(Also an indication that your bladder is ruptured)I just helped my sister install one at her waterfront place last summer.Pretty simple if you have some mechanical skills. __________________ SIKSUKR

03-13-2007, 05:36 PM	#14
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,528 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	Sunday, the spring warm-up told me to pull the plug after a two month run. It ran and ran and ran and ran for about two months, all winter, hung by two lines about one foot below the water surface, keeping the dock and boatlift ice free......the poor man's open-water circulator, it's the Lowe's $64.00-1/6hp-2amp pump. No on-off switch...very low tech...just plug it in and it works....always....check the intake screen on the bottom once a month or so for leaves. A garden hose can be attached to the top. Surprisingly, the 1/6hp model weighs much more than the more costly 1/4 and 1/3hp models which suggests it has a cast iron construction, or something, as opposed to all light weight plastic. By the way, breaking off the ground prong makes it unreturnable at Lowe's. For just $99.00, www.harborfreight.com in San Diego was selling a shallow well pump unit that includes a 1/2hp 110v pump, 10 gal horizontal pressurized tank, and pressure switch, all in one assembled unit, color brite blue. Freight was only ten dollars for the cheapest, 8 day, FedEx ground rate. Couldn't resist that price, so I bought one last Fall but have not used it, yet. Another lawn irrigation project in the works! Last edited by fatlazyless; 03-14-2007 at 10:03 PM.

03-14-2007, 07:53 AM	#17
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,528 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	Not having a ground was not a problem in the winter. Besides, the outlet is not grounded so not having a ground prong makes no difference. The pump is all plastic outside, with cast iron inside and is indeed an electric hazard for a person in the water or on the all aluminum dock. For powering my boatlift, I went with a 12 volt battery, the type used with electric trolling motors, as I didn't want to run a 110v supply wire along an all aluminum dock. I always try to be very safety consious when fiddling with electricity, gasoline, soldiering with a propane torch, ladders, chain saw, poison ivy, water safety and rattle snakes, and any other Meredith home owner hazards. Even with health insurance, it's just a lot cheaper to stay safe and avoid the very expensive ambulance service and the very expensive hospital emergency room. Watching the Johnny Carson show back in the 1970's made a big impression on me when a guest comedian showed up in a wheel chair. Johnny: "What happened to you, we haven't seen you for about a year?" Guest: "I was cleaning the roof gutters on the house with a ladder." Not very funny, no kidding. Last edited by fatlazyless; 03-14-2007 at 10:10 PM.

03-14-2007, 12:31 PM	#18
Bear Islander Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bear Island Posts: 1,757 Thanks: 31 Thanked 429 Times in 203 Posts	I hold a master electricians license and I would never put 120 volt wiring in or near the water of a swim area. Grounding doesn't make it safe, nor does a plastic shell. If the water finds its way into contact with live wiring someone can be killed. It will only take a slit or crack in the wire insulation even if the pump housing is waterproof. Any wiring at a swim area such as for dock lights must be 30 volts or less. I put 120 volts into the water for an aquatherm but it's only when nobody will be in the water.

03-14-2007, 04:00 PM	#21
islandAl Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mountonboro Posts: 200 Thanks: 12 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	GFCI's There was a change in the requirements for all GFCI's manufactured since July 2006. UL allowed for two versions, one to sound an alarm if the GFCI components fail but continue to operate; and the second for the GFCI not to pass any current (trip) if for any reason the components fail (in my opinion, this is the better way). This is not the way they were allowed to operate in the past. Fail components and only when you checked the test button would you know. All manufacturers had to also beef up the components to higher standards than prior. Check first as companies are allowed to sell everything made prior to the cutoff date and several manufacturers that produce overseas made a lot of inventory before the change and there still may be some left on store shelves. While I do not know every code, I doubt if any allow 120 volt devices to be in the pool. The lights are or should be low voltage and all the pool pumps I know are outside the pool and pumping the water thru pipes. Very different than submersible sump pump were no living thing is expected to be in the water.

03-14-2007, 10:19 PM	#24
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,528 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	This is slightly off topic, but that has never stopped me before. The world's greatest store, the Plymouth Wal-Mart sells a Black & Decker dc to ac converter for about $28.44 which goes into a cigarette lighter in a car or a boat and will produce up to 100 watts ac with a standard grounded outlet receptical. (No way this could really be grounded?) I was impressed! 100 watts is enough to run lots of different things, like a small crock pot, or a 'puter.

03-14-2007, 10:35 PM	#25
Orion Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Cow Island Posts: 914 Thanks: 602 Thanked 193 Times in 91 Posts	electrical misconceptions A 120v device submerged in the lake will have no effect on swimmers since the current is discharged and dissipated into the water which is a huge ground. The only way someone could get a shock is if someone handed them a wet pump with a leaky wire while they were standing in the water, thus completing a path to ground (the lake). This would also trip a GFCI CB. We have a sumberged 240v well pump as our water supply and I've actually only felt a slight tingle when touching the pump while running. I know that the wiring on those pumps is not watertight.

03-15-2007, 10:33 AM	#28
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	I think the real world is somewhere between Bear Islander and Orion. First of all, there are plenty of submersible 120v devices that are very safe when wired properly and used properly. Many underwater swimming pool lights are 120v, many sump pumps are submersible. But you can't count on the water for a safe ground. Fresh water is less conductive than humans. So if your swimming in fresh water and the electricity is traveling through the water, it can travel through you instead of the water. My original point was that cutting off the ground lug was a bad idea. It's a safety feature, it doesn't provide absolute protection. Removing it cannot help you. http://www.recreonics.com/hayward_underwater_lights.htm

03-15-2007, 11:51 AM	#29
Orion Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Cow Island Posts: 914 Thanks: 602 Thanked 193 Times in 91 Posts	It's all about current path Hmmmm, for example, I wonder how on earth a diver survives doing underwater arc welding at 300, 400, or even 1000 amps. But, your point is well taken BI. One should exercise care with voltages and water, but it is not as cut and dry an answer as many people think.

03-15-2007, 12:55 PM	#32
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	Sorry, I have to err on the side of caution here, a pool pump motor does not reside under water and is completely isolated so that no one can touch it (usually inside of some type of housing). Also its power cord is not in the water.(at least not intentionally). A submersible pump any where near where a kid can swim to it and grab hold is a bad idea, I've been zinged before by a submersible pump in a sump, learned my lesson quickly that day.

03-15-2007, 08:39 PM	#33
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Caution is all well in good, but it's not really practical to run high power devices using low voltage DC. A 2 HP motor would draw over 100 amps using 12 volts. That would require huge wires. Millions of homes have submersible sump pumps, and people are not electrocuted everytime the basement floods. The link shows a typical pool pump. A small ceramic seal keeps the water out of the electric motor. Every few years that seal will fail, water will gush into the motor and the GFI will trip. If your pump and pool are correctly grounded and bonded, swimmers will not be injured by this failure. I had a similar pool pump for 15 years. I can change that seal blind-folded. http://www.poolpumpandfiltersupersto...pumps_home.htm

03-15-2007, 09:44 PM	#34
fatlazyless Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,528 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 296 Thanked 957 Times in 698 Posts	While it may not be happening here in New Hampshire, it is pretty common in Boston for people to break off the ground prong on power tools because the outlet has no ground hole and they have no adapter, so snap, off with the prong. If someone, never ever myself, wanted to return a drill or something with the prong broke off, back to Lowe's after using it for two months, they'd be out of luck. The broken prong is usually a 'heck, this plug don't be fitting the outlet I'll just bust it off' or 'heck, I ain't got no adapter' type of dumb move. Capice! By the way, three prong adapters are not legal in Canada. Supposedly, Canadian Customs will confiscate these 79 cent grounding adapters.

03-16-2007, 08:25 AM	#35
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Hi jrc Why would you need to put a 2 horsepower pool pump underwater in a lakeside swim area? I'm sure that properly installed near a pool they are very safe, but a high voltage submersible pump underwater in a swim area is a different story. The idea of running a live high voltage wire into a the water where I swim seems questionable at best. I don't need a Darwin Award!

03-16-2007, 10:21 AM	#36
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Sorry, I got off on a tangent with the pool pumps and lights. This originally started with codeman talking about using a sump pump as a washdown pump on his dock, that's likely a submersible 120 volt pump. It wouldn't be practical to use 12 volt pump. My point was that you can use high voltage, submersible devices safely. But to be safe they have to be wired and installed correctly. Cutting off ground lugs defeats one of the safety features. I know it happens, all my Dad tools have the lugs removed. I'm done beating this dead horse.

03-16-2007, 10:40 AM	#37
Island Lover Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 213 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	All kinds of things are available for 12 volt power for boats and RVs. You can even get hair dryers, coffee makers and mixers. A 12 volt washdown pump is the best answer to the original question. They come in many sizes and pressures, will not burn out when the flow is cut off by the nozzle and are SAFE in a swim area. http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1\|51\|299222\|315122&id=121320

03-16-2007, 12:47 PM	#38
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,860 Thanks: 461 Thanked 666 Times in 366 Posts	The part of this equation that makes the pool pump vs submersible pump argument moot is the cord, a pool pump cord is not supposed to go in the pool water period. Where a submersible pump cord goes in the water to be pumped by design. A kid can't swim up to and grab a pool pump. A kid could swim up to and grab a submersible pump. The pool pumps you show, if they spring a leak the water will dribble out the cooling vents. A submersible pump will be immersed in the water. Using a submersible pump near swimmers is not a good idea, even with a GFI, which have been known to fail, that's why they come with test buttons.

03-27-2007, 04:32 PM	#39
Cow Man Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Cow Island / Holderness, NH Posts: 46 Thanks: 4 Thanked 19 Times in 8 Posts	Pressure washer Probably the simplest, safest and best way albeit more expensive is to keep the pump and electrical on land and run a hose to the dock. Attach the hose to a pressure washer (<$200) and voila plenty of pressure and the option of adding degreasers, deck wash, etc, (environmentally safe brands, of course).