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Old 09-15-2021, 09:17 PM   #1
SailinAway
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Default Breakthrough infections

Someone close to me who is fully vaccinated was just diagnosed with COVID-19. I think what happened was an accumulation of factors: living in Florida, having to go to work in person, and unvaccinated family members. People wonder why I'm still using the same precautions as last year (double mask, 6 feet of distance) when I'm fully vaccinated. I guess they see it as "You're 95% protected. Relax." I see it as SOMEBODY has to be in the other 5% who end up unprotected after they're vaccinated. That's potentially 54,000 adults in New Hampshire. It's magical thinking to believe you couldn't be one of 54,000. So please keep taking precautions even if you're vaccinated, even if only 10% of the people at the grocery store are wearing masks.
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Old 09-16-2021, 09:04 AM   #2
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Someone close to me who is fully vaccinated was just diagnosed with COVID-19. I think what happened was an accumulation of factors: living in Florida, having to go to work in person, and unvaccinated family members. People wonder why I'm still using the same precautions as last year (double mask, 6 feet of distance) when I'm fully vaccinated. I guess they see it as "You're 95% protected. Relax." I see it as SOMEBODY has to be in the other 5% who end up unprotected after they're vaccinated. That's potentially 54,000 adults in New Hampshire. It's magical thinking to believe you couldn't be one of 54,000. So please keep taking precautions even if you're vaccinated, even if only 10% of the people at the grocery store are wearing masks.
Hopefully the double masks you are wearing are not 10 cent made in china models,,,

This is but one example of countless problems; https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a9423426.html

Masks made in foreign countries, treated with god knows what chemicals and made from who knows what waste materials and packed by infected workers may well end up being more dangerous than COVID. The problem is you may not know it until much later.

If you feel the need to wear a mask, follow the advice of one of the posters here and look for USA made 100% cotton masks. For a while BJ's and Wallmart had Hanes masks that were pretty decent.

Many people dont like the cotton masks as they get wet from breathing through them, which may cause other problems, but is probably the lessor of evils by comparison to this crap they are sending us from overseas, and in some cases even marking them as USA made 3M products and similar.

Beware the solution may be worse then the thing you fear.

As a COVID survivor I am the first to tell you you dont want this, but I also avoid masks as much as possible. Thats said, you would not get me on a bus or subway train in Boston without one,,,

Best of luck
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:01 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by XCR-700 View Post
Hopefully the double masks you are wearing are not 10 cent made in china models,,,

This is but one example of countless problems; https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a9423426.html

Masks made in foreign countries, treated with god knows what chemicals and made from who knows what waste materials and packed by infected workers may well end up being more dangerous than COVID. The problem is you may not know it until much later.

If you feel the need to wear a mask, follow the advice of one of the posters here and look for USA made 100% cotton masks. For a while BJ's and Wallmart had Hanes masks that were pretty decent.

Many people dont like the cotton masks as they get wet from breathing through them, which may cause other problems, but is probably the lessor of evils by comparison to this crap they are sending us from overseas, and in some cases even marking them as USA made 3M products and similar.

Beware the solution may be worse then the thing you fear.

As a COVID survivor I am the first to tell you you dont want this, but I also avoid masks as much as possible. Thats said, you would not get me on a bus or subway train in Boston without one,,,

Best of luck
I agree that you need to carefully screen anything you get from China, not just masks, but let’s not exaggerate things to much.

COVID is rarely transmitted through “packages”. So let’s not start making falsehoods of infected Chinese workers sending out infected masks. That’s just flat out wrong in so many ways. Even if infected COVID would not survive that long.

COVID is primarily transmitted through air borne particles.

Like wise masks stop the spread TWO ways. They help protect you from inhaling particles that are suspended around you. That’s actually pretty hard to do without a really good mask. More importantly they reduce how much an infected person spews out. That is much easier to “reduce”. To completely eliminate it, is quite hard. A lot of testing that’s done is filling a space with something and seeing how much can get past the mask. So even cheap crappy masks probably reduce how much gets spewed out. Because 99% masks out there are not tight fitting. And even a good mask can be used poorly.

Here is some more info on it.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavir...n-overview#2-6
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:15 PM   #4
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7 KN95 Masks for COVID-19 Protection That You Can Buy Online
They can all be found on the FDA’s Emergency Use Authorization list.
By Rebecca Carhart Updated June 01, 2021
Each product we feature has been independently selected and reviewed by our editorial team.

https://www.health.com/mind-body/grief-after-9-11-covid

Stocking up on PPE has become the norm over the last year. While it's a little more straightforward to find a pair of safety glasses that offer protection and hand sanitizer that meets the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's recommendation of using a formula with 60 to 95% alcohol concentration, when it comes to choosing a face mask, the choices can feel overwhelming. N95 masks are still the gold standard, but since the CDC recommends saving them for healthcare workers, many people have turned to the Chinese equivalent, KN95 masks, instead.

According to Julie Chen, MD, an integrative medicine physician who is board-certified in internal medicine, that's because these masks are made from "multiple layers of material that block 95 percent of 0.3 micron particles. Coronavirus is even smaller, at 0.1 microns, but are typically bound to something larger (like droplets), so it's purported to be 95 percent protective."

While KN95 masks may provide a high level of protection, there are a few things to consider when shopping for one. Only a few Chinese manufacturers have been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for emergency use, so if you choose to wear one of these masks, be sure to select an option from this list. Plus, you should also be aware there are many counterfeit KN95 masks being sold online, so it's important to do some research before buying any.

Here are seven FDA-approved KN95 masks that you can buy:

Newmark/Jinhua Jiadaifu Medical Supplies Co KN95 Mask
Boncare/Guangdong Zhizhen Biological Medicine Co Ltd. KN95 Mask
Miuphro/Chengde Technology Co. KN95 Mask
Vida/Guangzhou Nan Qi Xing KN95 Mask
Wwdoll/Chengde Technology Co. KN95 Mask
Maskc KN95 Mask
Powecom/Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies KN95 Mask

I've used this one:
Powecom/Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies KN95 Mask
TO BUY: POWECOM/GUANGZHOU POWECOM LABOR INSURANCE SUPPLIES KN95 MASK, $7 (WAS $12) FOR 10; BONEFIDEMASKS.COM
This KN95 mask has a seal of approval from the FDA and thousands of shoppers alike. Along with an adjustable nose piece, the protective mask features ear loops that are comfortable enough to wear for hours at a time. It's made from five layers of soft and breathable materials that block more than 95% of particles. Even better, the mask's packaging comes with an anti-counterfeit sticker for added verification.

https://bonafidemasks.com/
POWECOM KN95
Bona Fide Masks® is designated by Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies Co., Ltd., the manufacturer of our KN95 respirator mask, as their largest authorized distributor of Powecom products in the United States. All of our Powecom KN95 respirators manufactured after May 20th come affixed with anti-fake stickers that allow the end user to verify authenticity.

You may have heard that the FDA recently revoked Emergency Use Authorizations (EUA) for KN95 masks, which are manufactured to Chinese standards. While KN95s are no longer authorized for healthcare workers given the abundant supply of N95 respirators, they are still appropriate for consumer use, and the Powecom KN95 efficacy (BFE) has tested similar to NIOSH approved N95s. The Powecom KN95 is of the highest quality.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:44 PM   #5
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I agree that you need to carefully screen anything you get from China, not just masks, but let’s not exaggerate things to much.

COVID is rarely transmitted through “packages”. So let’s not start making falsehoods of infected Chinese workers sending out infected masks. That’s just flat out wrong in so many ways. Even if infected COVID would not survive that long.

COVID is primarily transmitted through air borne particles.

Like wise masks stop the spread TWO ways. They help protect you from inhaling particles that are suspended around you. That’s actually pretty hard to do without a really good mask. More importantly they reduce how much an infected person spews out. That is much easier to “reduce”. To completely eliminate it, is quite hard. A lot of testing that’s done is filling a space with something and seeing how much can get past the mask. So even cheap crappy masks probably reduce how much gets spewed out. Because 99% masks out there are not tight fitting. And even a good mask can be used poorly.

Here is some more info on it.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavir...n-overview#2-6
Sorry you read something into my post that was not there, I never said COVID infected, I said infected.

I have read reports were workers in foreign plants making masks that were intended to be sold to the US, were identified as having various communicable diseases. Some shipments have been caught and destroyed, but given the volume being shipped and the all the places making them, it is not possible to stop them all.

Will the viruses/bacteria survive from the plant to the US to the end user, no clue, but its not worth the chance.

Overall my bigger concern is the unregulated materials and chemicals they can be made from and exposed to.

Most people dont realize how many items shipped from overseas are treated to prevent bugs and rats from eating them, and we then use/wear/bandage ourselves with things coated in chemicals not intended to be in contact with humans.

Least we not forget it was China that was well documented for putting plastic powder in baby formula that killed countless thousands of their own infants!

Then there was dissolved newspaper/cardboard dissolved with acid to make inexpensive filler for pork buns sold to tourists. People quickly forgot about that one because one TV reporter made a fake video of it because it was easier than catching people in the act. So we somehow forgot it was a real thing being practiced widely. Funny how one falsified event can help cover up a huge scandal.

Point being, A - no exaggeration by me, an accidental over read by you, and B - beware any foreign products and especially from 3rd world countries and countries where we are not on the best terms with.

And not to derail this subject, but take a moment to look up the total BS going on with "virgin" olive oil. Again, beware what you think you are being sold,,, AND DONT buy or use masks from china or other 3rd world counties and be careful of even the ones that say made in America, you may end up worse off than not using a mask at all.
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Old 09-16-2021, 12:59 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by thebix View Post
7 KN95 Masks for COVID-19 Protection That You Can Buy Online
They can all be found on the FDA’s Emergency Use Authorization list.
By Rebecca Carhart Updated June 01, 2021
Each product we feature has been independently selected and reviewed by our editorial team.

https://www.health.com/mind-body/grief-after-9-11-covid

Stocking up on PPE has become the norm over the last year. While it's a little more straightforward to find a pair of safety glasses that offer protection and hand sanitizer that meets the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's recommendation of using a formula with 60 to 95% alcohol concentration, when it comes to choosing a face mask, the choices can feel overwhelming. N95 masks are still the gold standard, but since the CDC recommends saving them for healthcare workers, many people have turned to the Chinese equivalent, KN95 masks, instead.

According to Julie Chen, MD, an integrative medicine physician who is board-certified in internal medicine, that's because these masks are made from "multiple layers of material that block 95 percent of 0.3 micron particles. Coronavirus is even smaller, at 0.1 microns, but are typically bound to something larger (like droplets), so it's purported to be 95 percent protective."

While KN95 masks may provide a high level of protection, there are a few things to consider when shopping for one. Only a few Chinese manufacturers have been approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration for emergency use, so if you choose to wear one of these masks, be sure to select an option from this list. Plus, you should also be aware there are many counterfeit KN95 masks being sold online, so it's important to do some research before buying any.

Here are seven FDA-approved KN95 masks that you can buy:

Newmark/Jinhua Jiadaifu Medical Supplies Co KN95 Mask
Boncare/Guangdong Zhizhen Biological Medicine Co Ltd. KN95 Mask
Miuphro/Chengde Technology Co. KN95 Mask
Vida/Guangzhou Nan Qi Xing KN95 Mask
Wwdoll/Chengde Technology Co. KN95 Mask
Maskc KN95 Mask
Powecom/Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies KN95 Mask

I've used this one:
Powecom/Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies KN95 Mask
TO BUY: POWECOM/GUANGZHOU POWECOM LABOR INSURANCE SUPPLIES KN95 MASK, $7 (WAS $12) FOR 10; BONEFIDEMASKS.COM
This KN95 mask has a seal of approval from the FDA and thousands of shoppers alike. Along with an adjustable nose piece, the protective mask features ear loops that are comfortable enough to wear for hours at a time. It's made from five layers of soft and breathable materials that block more than 95% of particles. Even better, the mask's packaging comes with an anti-counterfeit sticker for added verification.

https://bonafidemasks.com/
POWECOM KN95
Bona Fide Masks® is designated by Guangzhou Powecom Labor Insurance Supplies Co., Ltd., the manufacturer of our KN95 respirator mask, as their largest authorized distributor of Powecom products in the United States. All of our Powecom KN95 respirators manufactured after May 20th come affixed with anti-fake stickers that allow the end user to verify authenticity.

You may have heard that the FDA recently revoked Emergency Use Authorizations (EUA) for KN95 masks, which are manufactured to Chinese standards. While KN95s are no longer authorized for healthcare workers given the abundant supply of N95 respirators, they are still appropriate for consumer use, and the Powecom KN95 efficacy (BFE) has tested similar to NIOSH approved N95s. The Powecom KN95 is of the highest quality.
No way I'm buying this stuff, it says Made in China in big letters!

Just because it tells you all the facts about N95 and says certified on it doesnt make it so.

Who ensured it was the legit? Do some research and see how many fake N95 and 3M and such products out there. Not worth the risk, make your own out of Tee shirts first, but NOTHING from China.

Good luck with that,,,
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Old 09-16-2021, 08:11 PM   #7
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Default Cotton masks are the LEAST effective

Cotton masks have recently been found to be the LEAST effective of all masks. As thebix stated, the FDA maintains a list of approved and "authentic" KN95 masks. The "K" designates made in China. One of the companies on the list is Powecom.

Why use KN95 masks? Because they're essentially the same as N95 masks (95% or greater filtration of particles larger than 0.3 microns in diameter) but much cheaper. They have a snugger fit on the face than the blue surgical masks. However, the source of KN95 masks needs to be verified because some copies don't contain the materials they claim to have.

See, for example, the KN95 masks produced in China by Powecom for Bona Fide masks in Mount Vernon, NY. Bona Fide is an offshoot of a company called Ball Chain Mfg. (A ball chain is the chain used to turn on lights etc.) The company was formed in response to the shortage of masks for hospital workers in New York in 2020. The important thing here is that Bona Fide gets its masks directly from the Chinese manufacturer so the source can be authenticated. You can read their statement on the authenticity of the masks at https://bonafidemasks.com/content/Au...0Statement.pdf. Powecom and the supplier Bona Fide were also listed by the New York times in an review of authentic versus unauthentic masks.

You can buy Powecom masks directly from Bona Fide at https://bonafidemasks.com/Powecom-kn...IyMTMiOjEwOTh9. They cost $8.30 for 10 masks. This is a trustworthy company. I purchased from them and received the masks in a couple of days. If you call them, you get a live person. I found these masks very hot but apparently they're now made differently to increase breathability.

How do you know the Powecom masks you get are authentic? There is a coated sticker on the package. You scrape off the coating to reveal a serial number and you check the serial number online at Powecom. See Powecom at http://powecom.com/about.html
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Old 09-16-2021, 09:07 PM   #8
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He is pointing out that though an N95 and KN95 mask that passes testing are virtually identical, many KN95 masks have been shown not to meet the requirement due to faulty quality control.

Several outlets across the political spectrum reported on this.
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Old 09-16-2021, 10:24 PM   #9
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Cotton masks have recently been found to be the LEAST effective of all masks. As thebix stated, the FDA maintains a list of approved and "authentic" KN95 masks. The "K" designates made in China. One of the companies on the list is Powecom.

Why use KN95 masks? Because they're essentially the same as N95 masks (95% or greater filtration of particles larger than 0.3 microns in diameter) but much cheaper. They have a snugger fit on the face than the blue surgical masks. However, the source of KN95 masks needs to be verified because some copies don't contain the materials they claim to have.

See, for example, the KN95 masks produced in China by Powecom for Bona Fide masks in Mount Vernon, NY. Bona Fide is an offshoot of a company called Ball Chain Mfg. (A ball chain is the chain used to turn on lights etc.) The company was formed in response to the shortage of masks for hospital workers in New York in 2020. The important thing here is that Bona Fide gets its masks directly from the Chinese manufacturer so the source can be authenticated. You can read their statement on the authenticity of the masks at https://bonafidemasks.com/content/Au...0Statement.pdf. Powecom and the supplier Bona Fide were also listed by the New York times in an review of authentic versus unauthentic masks.

You can buy Powecom masks directly from Bona Fide at https://bonafidemasks.com/Powecom-kn...IyMTMiOjEwOTh9. They cost $8.30 for 10 masks. This is a trustworthy company. I purchased from them and received the masks in a couple of days. If you call them, you get a live person. I found these masks very hot but apparently they're now made differently to increase breathability.

How do you know the Powecom masks you get are authentic? There is a coated sticker on the package. You scrape off the coating to reveal a serial number and you check the serial number online at Powecom. See Powecom at http://powecom.com/about.html
How quickly we forget,,,

These are the people that sent you the virus.

Buy American, you might live longer!

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Old 09-16-2021, 11:28 PM   #10
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Sorry you read something into my post that was not there, I never said COVID infected, I said infected.

I have read reports were workers in foreign plants making masks that were intended to be sold to the US, were identified as having various communicable diseases. Some shipments have been caught and destroyed, but given the volume being shipped and the all the places making them, it is not possible to stop them all.

Will the viruses/bacteria survive from the plant to the US to the end user, no clue, but its not worth the chance.

Overall my bigger concern is the unregulated materials and chemicals they can be made from and exposed to.

Most people dont realize how many items shipped from overseas are treated to prevent bugs and rats from eating them, and we then use/wear/bandage ourselves with things coated in chemicals not intended to be in contact with humans.

Least we not forget it was China that was well documented for putting plastic powder in baby formula that killed countless thousands of their own infants!

Then there was dissolved newspaper/cardboard dissolved with acid to make inexpensive filler for pork buns sold to tourists. People quickly forgot about that one because one TV reporter made a fake video of it because it was easier than catching people in the act. So we somehow forgot it was a real thing being practiced widely. Funny how one falsified event can help cover up a huge scandal.

Point being, A - no exaggeration by me, an accidental over read by you, and B - beware any foreign products and especially from 3rd world countries and countries where we are not on the best terms with.

And not to derail this subject, but take a moment to look up the total BS going on with "virgin" olive oil. Again, beware what you think you are being sold,,, AND DONT buy or use masks from china or other 3rd world counties and be careful of even the ones that say made in America, you may end up worse off than not using a mask at all.
Come on, how else is one to interpret “packed by infected workers” to mean in a thread discussing protecting against COVID.

If you want rephrase it to other diseases fine. But don’t be so surprise I interpreted it as I did. You seem to be very detailed oriented and left that minor ambiguity out.
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Old 09-17-2021, 07:04 AM   #11
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Come on, how else is one to interpret “packed by infected workers” to mean in a thread discussing protecting against COVID.

If you want rephrase it to other diseases fine. But don’t be so surprise I interpreted it as I did. You seem to be very detailed oriented and left that minor ambiguity out.
You can read anything you want in to it, but thats not what I wrote, it was intended to be generic.

At this point almost everyone should know that COVID doesnt live on surfaces very long, its been in the news for a year. Thats why no one is wearing gloves any more, and they are not selling like masks.

Other bacteria and viruses I have no idea how long any specific one lives, only that some last a long time. I am just passing along what I have read.

I personally am avoiding anything made in china that I can, but thats not so easy these days. But breath through masks mad in china to no particular standards and from whatever they want to make them from, no chance. I would take my chances with COVID first. The COVID death numbers are dropping to super low levels so I am far less concerned about that than whatever chinese masks might give me.

Have you read any of the new concerns about polyester fabrics impact on the environment? The most common material in chinese masks! Early speculation is that it may be the next asbestos. "If" that turns out to be true (and there is some really troubling theories and evidence) just then imagine the potential impact to hundreds of millions of people from wearing cheap polyester chinese masks all day. Its a frightening thought.

Believe what you want, ignore what you want.
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Old 09-17-2021, 07:05 AM   #12
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Come on, how else is one to interpret “packed by infected workers” to mean in a thread discussing protecting against COVID.

If you want rephrase it to other diseases fine. But don’t be so surprise I interpreted it as I did. You seem to be very brainwashed and left that minor ambiguity out.
Fixed it for you.
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Old 09-17-2021, 07:44 AM   #13
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Fixed it for you.
Ha thats funny, and you are licking the boxes of chinese goods coming over because they are our good friends and so trustworthy, but probably wearing double masks around people who are not coughing or showing any other signs of being ill.

The level of koolaid consumption by some people is fascinating. Hope it serves you well ;-)

LATEST NH COVID Death Numbers: Sept 16 = 0, Seven Day Avg = 2
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Old 09-17-2021, 08:36 AM   #14
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Spent the last few days at Concord Hospital, they require you to use one of their supplied masks. They hand them out at the door


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Old 09-17-2021, 09:40 AM   #15
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Although I do have misgivings about Chinese masks and it is a legitimate concern; absent any real evaluation of the risk of the Chinese masks vs the risk of using relatively ineffective cotton masks or no masks, I'd go with Chinese.

There is much about China, its business practices and its government to be concerned about. At this point, we are, as a nation, stuck with them.

I do use and choose an American made N95 (non-medical) mask.

OTOH, it is really impossible to just "Buy American" and the irony is that many, if not most, of the products we use daily, from refrigerators to electronic equipment (including medical) are either entirely made in China or include Chinese components. And yes, they do steal our technology.

Having a discussion need not include untrue inflammatory comments.

And I don't drink KoolAid.
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Old 09-17-2021, 10:00 AM   #16
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Fixed it for you.
Speaking of brainwashed....how anyone can believe anything that comes out of Fraud-Ouchy's mouth is beyond my comprehension.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...paranoid-tool/
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Old 09-17-2021, 10:12 AM   #17
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Speaking of brainwashed....how anyone can believe anything that comes out of Fraud-Ouchy's mouth is beyond my comprehension.



https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...paranoid-tool/
We have shown over and over how your "evidence" is consistently and clearly debunked. Using Breitbart, we don't even need to look at it.

If we do look at it, however, we'll find science. Specifically, that early on we weren't entirely sure how Covid spread and, therefore, made best guesses based on available data. That's how the "don't touch boxes for a while because it could be spread through surfaces" theory developed.

Fast forward almost two years, and SCIENCE has figured out many things, among them that masks work and vaccinated people are much, much, much less likely to be affected negatively by Covid.

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Old 09-17-2021, 11:03 AM   #18
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He is pointing out that though an N95 and KN95 mask that passes testing are virtually identical, many KN95 masks have been shown not to meet the requirement due to faulty quality control.

Several outlets across the political spectrum reported on this.
This is true. I read somewhere (New York Times, I think) that 60% of KN95 masks are fake, meaning not made by the claimed manufacturer, hence the standards and materials are unknown. I would not by a Powecom mask on Amazon for that reason. I would only buy it from Bona Fide.
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:37 AM   #19
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We have shown over and over how your "evidence" is consistently and clearly debunked. Using Breitbart, we don't even need to look at it.

If we do look at it, however, we'll find science. Specifically, that early on we weren't entirely sure how Covid spread and, therefore, made best guesses based on available data. That's how the "don't touch boxes for a while because it could be spread through surfaces" theory developed.

Fast forward almost two years, and SCIENCE has figured out many things, among them that masks work and vaccinated people are much, much, much less likely to be affected negatively by Covid.

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Fauchi’s own words. But debunk away. I would expect nothing less.
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:54 AM   #20
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Masks stop the spread TWO ways. . . . More importantly they reduce how much an infected person spews out.
This is true and I should have mentioned this in my original post. You wear a mask to protect yourself AND other people.

At this point 60% of Americans are vaccinated and that number doesn't seem to want to budge. This means that we won't reach herd immunity and this virus and its variants could be with us for a long time. I'm no longer waiting for the pandemic to end. I'm assuming that this is normal life for the next long stretch.

Over the last 5 years or so we saw the rift in this country get deeper and wider. Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of talk now about how to bring Americans back together, the way we were during World War II, for example. At this point in the U.S., the pandemic is no longer a problem of medicine or technology, since we have the medical solution to it and an abundant supply of vaccines. It's primarily a problem of human behavior. The behavior won't change until enough people agree on the common goal of ending the pandemic. That's not the case right now---40% of people have some other priority besides ending the pandemic---so there's not much hope of ending it in the coming years.

Assuming that we need a yearly vaccination, we will be fighting the same battle every year, trying to convince people to get vaccinated. They're not going to do that until there's a big shift in the underlying causes of the social rift, which are very deep. Vaccination resistance is only the tip of the iceberg of deeply held beliefs and feelings. The ideological rift is probably going to make stopping the climate crisis impossible also, because the problem of human behavior went way beyond the ability of science and technology to stop climate change. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel pessimistic about our ability to solve these major threats to our existence.
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:54 AM   #21
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Fauchi’s own words. But debunk away. I would expect nothing less.
Yes, his own words in the context of what we knew then.

You realize that guidance will, and should, change as more is learned? Like, how science works?!

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Old 09-17-2021, 12:02 PM   #22
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^^^^ plus PPE was in very short supply and was being diverted to first responders as priority over the general public.
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:10 PM   #23
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This is true. I read somewhere (New York Times, I think) that 60% of KN95 masks are fake, meaning not made by the claimed manufacturer, hence the standards and materials are unknown. I would not by a Powecom mask on Amazon for that reason. I would only buy it from Bona Fide.
At this point I almost thing AMAZON knowingly contributes to the problem.

They have become a critical component to surviving the pandemic and yet they are a loathsome organization and much of whats wrong with America today.
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Old 09-17-2021, 02:13 PM   #24
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This is yet another thread that makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying.

Some of you folks spew verminous hostility that would make a cobra run for cover and you direct it toward anyone who simply holds a different opinion than yours or disagrees with you, and yet you tell each other you are wearing masks to protect the other guy.

Really,,, how benevolent of you,,,

Now all of a sudden we have great concern for our fellow man.

Not likely.

Just read the anger in these posts. Some here are on the edge of verbal violence and assault, and somehow these same people also embody tremendous concern for their fellow mans health. Well try softening your tone to reduce their stress level, that will help them live longer than wearing any chinese 10 cent mask.

Should we also expect that you same folks will soon also be carrying a guns to protect us from the public health epidemic of violence in America (the presidents words) Not too likely, nor would most want you to.

I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me, please dont do it on my behalf, and the same for carrying a gun. I'll take care of my own protection from the virus and violent criminals.

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.
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Old 09-17-2021, 02:21 PM   #25
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This is yet another thread that makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying.

Some of you folks spew verminous hostility that would make a cobra run for cover and you direct it toward anyone who simply holds a different opinion than yours or disagrees with you, and yet you tell each other you are wearing masks to protect the other guy.

Really,,, how benevolent of you,,,

Now all of a sudden we have great concern for our fellow man.

Not likely.

Just read the anger in these posts. Some here are on the edge of verbal violence and assault, and somehow these same people also embody tremendous concern for their fellow mans health. Well try softening your tone to reduce their stress level, that will help them live longer than wearing any chinese 10 cent mask.

Should we also expect that you same folks will soon also be carrying a guns to protect us from the public health epidemic of violence in America (the presidents words) Not too likely, nor would most want you to.

I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me, please dont do it on my behalf, and the same for carrying a gun. I'll take care of my own protection from the virus and violent criminals.

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.
Very well said. I’ll worry about mine and my families health and protection.


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Old 09-17-2021, 02:31 PM   #26
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Very well said. I’ll worry about mine and my families health and protection.


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This I can respect!

But I can also respect someone flat out telling me; I wear a mask and got vaccinated and continue to remain socially distant because I have a tremendous fear based on what I see all over the news.

Just dont tell me your doing it for me, and then haze me or someone else for disagreeing with your belief. That carries no credibility.
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Old 09-17-2021, 03:54 PM   #27
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Spent the last few days at Concord Hospital, they require you to use one of their supplied masks. They hand them out at the door


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Exactly. They do this because a number of people, such as XCR, think they are better than actual experts at choosing masks. As we know, experts may not be perfect, but they have a much better chance of being right than randos
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Old 09-17-2021, 04:20 PM   #28
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This is yet another thread that makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying.

Some of you folks spew verminous hostility that would make a cobra run for cover and you direct it toward anyone who simply holds a different opinion than yours or disagrees with you, and yet you tell each other you are wearing masks to protect the other guy.

Really,,, how benevolent of you,,,

Now all of a sudden we have great concern for our fellow man.

Not likely.

Just read the anger in these posts. Some here are on the edge of verbal violence and assault, and somehow these same people also embody tremendous concern for their fellow mans health. Well try softening your tone to reduce their stress level, that will help them live longer than wearing any chinese 10 cent mask.

Should we also expect that you same folks will soon also be carrying a guns to protect us from the public health epidemic of violence in America (the presidents words) Not too likely, nor would most want you to.

I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me, please dont do it on my behalf, and the same for carrying a gun. I'll take care of my own protection from the virus and violent criminals.

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.
I don't spew hatred and I wear a mask for others. And, I am not crazy nor am I lying.

Last edited by Garcia; 09-17-2021 at 04:21 PM. Reason: added something
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Old 09-17-2021, 04:22 PM   #29
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Exactly. They do this because a number of people, such as XCR, think they are better than actual experts at choosing masks. As we know, experts may not be perfect, but they have a much better chance of being right than randos
NO, No, no, XCR prefers/chooses no masks. He only wears them in actual locations of high risk or where required, and almost NEVER where not needed like when in his own car, in the boat, out anywhere in the open.

No problem attending the events in Laconia this summer, walking the boardwalk with thousands of people during the bike week events was a great time. Never even got a sniffle.

LATEST NH COVID Death Numbers: Sept 16 = 0, Seven Day Avg = 2


Now on a train in Boston or maybe walking through Chelsea or Dorchester, maybe yes, but elsewhere, mostly not needed and mostly not used where not required.

High vaccination rates, lots of natural immunity, medical providers who now know how to treat COVID = I'm far more likely to be verbally assaulted by one of our chinese mask experts here who is intolerant of any differing opinions. AND WAY more at risk of being lambasted for saying super noodles are far superior to regular noodles, with or without a belt!
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Old 09-17-2021, 04:27 PM   #30
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https://apnews.com/article/fda-panel...8a7324807a59f1


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Old 09-17-2021, 04:41 PM   #31
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I don't spew hatred and I wear a mask for others. And, I am not crazy nor am I lying.
Hummm, if you actually have to say it, isnt that an inverse or reverse version of Catch 22???

A true classic that so mimics real life, that I sometimes think Washington does all it does based on old movie scripts.

The current pandemic, was probably lifted from the X-Files movie and series. They sure did a great job of copying a lot of the elements from the movie. Now if we could only get to Wilkes Land to that snowcat and bring it back to Winnipesaukee for the winter,,,

Oh sorry what were saying, something about crazy, Yup must be for disagreeing with any opinions here, as its no longer tolerated in America, we cancel people for disagreeing. Dont we???

;-)
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Old 09-17-2021, 04:44 PM   #32
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Finally a common sense action, I shudder to think of what will come next.
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Old 09-17-2021, 04:50 PM   #33
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NO, No, no, XCR prefers/chooses no masks. He only wears them in actual locations of high risk or where required, and almost NEVER where not needed like when in his own car, in the boat, out anywhere in the open.
Maybe you missed the post I replied to? Hospitals--high risk places-- often require that people wear a hospital-supplied mask because they know that people like you (and I) are not qualified to identify good masks.

There are no experts who accept unrated all cotton masks such as the ones you posted. People should buy N95, KN95, or KF94 masks; and make sure they fit snugly
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Old 09-17-2021, 05:39 PM   #34
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Maybe you missed the post I replied to? Hospitals--high risk places-- often require that people wear a hospital-supplied mask because they know that people like you (and I) are not qualified to identify good masks.

There are no experts who accept unrated all cotton masks such as the ones you posted. People should buy N95, KN95, or KF94 masks; and make sure they fit snugly
Well I dont work in a medical environment and/or around sick people, so I dont feel the need for N95 level protection, its overkill as far as I am concerned.

Most of the time when "I" wear a mask its because I am required to, and they either supply specific masks (like at the doctors office/hospital), or I wear the cotton mask, as I am far more concerned about inhaling off-gassing chemicals - polyester fibers or whatever else might come off a synthetic chinese mask, than I am of COVID.

Sorry, as a COVID survivor I do not live in terror of infection. I will tell you it is absolutely not something you want, but I also will tell you do not live in fear of it. I act as is its an extended flu season. Wash my hands often, avoid tightly packed crowds indoors indoors, and avoid anyone coughing. Otherwise my routine is mostly unchanged from pre-COVID.

If you feel better taking extra precautions, so be it. You need to act to protect yourself as you believe is necessary.

We all have different things we worry about. I worry much more about driving tiny cars than COVID, so my daily driver is a 7000 LB truck that only averages 14 - 15 MPG. I worry more about the side effects of my medications than the ailments they are treating. I worry more about paying my bills and making sure my kids are well supported financially than my job killing me (which it probably is from stress,,,) I worry more about sharing information I believe people should know than some people responding like jackasses to me for having a different opinion.

We can agree to disagree and I am not bothered up to the point where people get personal or hostile, then I probably respond badly.

Do I have flaws and make mistakes, YUP, maybe even more than the average guy. But I believe what I say and I say it because I think it needs to be said, not to intentionally attack someone. Well at least it doesnt start that way. Like others, I too often respond in kind when I should ignore some people.

But thats ok, as I fully expect to burn in hell. I am working on memorizing Bbq Gargoyle recipes and I already know I want the 3 prong pitchfork. I expect to see a lot of people there and plan on jabbing a few in the backside. And should I be lucky enough to land in purgatory I will make the best of that as well, I got a few folks I want to haunt the hell out of ;-)

Sorry, got side-tracked practicing for Halloween.

ATB
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Old 09-17-2021, 07:20 PM   #35
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I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying. . . . I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me. . . . The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype.
Here's a simple analogy. If I'm not mistaken, you offered me advice about my roof. I assume you did that because you wanted to help me. Why would I not have the same heartfelt concern for you?

The science says that even though I'm vaccinated, and even if I have no visible symptoms, I can be a Covid carrier without knowing it. Spreading a serious disease to another person when I could prevent that goes against all of my personal and social values. If I did that and you got sick and possibly died, I wouldn't only be hurting you. I would be hurting everyone who cares about you and people who depend on you (your children, employer, coworkers, friends, etc.). There would be a financial cost of your illness and death. I don't want to be the cause of such harm.

You know, people do sincere altruistic things all the time. I bet even you would stop to help an injured dog by the side of the road. We often see people's selfish exterior, but I think that altruism is just as innate in people. It's even innate in animals---just look for "animals helping animals" on YouTube. I think the reason for this is that when you strip away politics, religion, etc., you realize that we all belong to the same human species and we're all in this together. Sure it's about feeling good. Looking out for others does make you feel good.
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Old 09-17-2021, 08:48 PM   #36
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Looking out for others does make you feel good.
Agreed. Two other points missed above about wearing masks to protect others:

We have plenty of data now that show it does indeed protect others, it is not wishful thinking or hype.

If a community has rules that require mask wearing so that everyone is "protecting others"--then everyone is protected by everyone else. So there is a quid pro quo involved, it is not ONLY being a nice guy
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:03 PM   #37
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This is yet another thread that makes for interesting reading if nothing else.

I personally believe anyone who tells me they are wearing a mask to protect me is either crazy or lying.

Some of you folks spew verminous hostility that would make a cobra run for cover and you direct it toward anyone who simply holds a different opinion than yours or disagrees with you, and yet you tell each other you are wearing masks to protect the other guy.

Really,,, how benevolent of you,,,

Now all of a sudden we have great concern for our fellow man.

Not likely.

Just read the anger in these posts. Some here are on the edge of verbal violence and assault, and somehow these same people also embody tremendous concern for their fellow mans health. Well try softening your tone to reduce their stress level, that will help them live longer than wearing any chinese 10 cent mask.

Should we also expect that you same folks will soon also be carrying a guns to protect us from the public health epidemic of violence in America (the presidents words) Not too likely, nor would most want you to.

I personally have ZERO expectation for you to wear mask when you feel fine so that you can protect me, please dont do it on my behalf, and the same for carrying a gun. I'll take care of my own protection from the virus and violent criminals.

The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.
Well if I could cherry pick, maybe I might skip you (joking). But if you get COVID from me, then you give it to someone else. Then who you gave it to might give it my sister.

I got vaccinated, wear a mask, still limit my exposure for the community in general, especially health care workers that are the real soldiers here, for the economy, for COVID to be over with ASAP, my family and for myself.

Honestly, I think your post is delusional. Maybe you should get tested because COVID can cause delusional thinking. If not delusional, really kinda sad people think like you are. Like it's some master plan to get you or so they feel good, really? Get a grip man.

Obviously vaccines are not 100% nor are masks. If masks reduces my getting it 1% or reduces passing it to someone else 1% that's fine by me. And today if folks don't wear a mask I don't get that upset even though I prefer they would in any closed places. And for the most part a lot are. At least the places I frequent do.
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:19 PM   #38
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He reminds me of Mike Sylvia.
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Old 09-18-2021, 09:35 AM   #39
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The notion you are wearing a mask to protect others is simply feel good hype from people who dont even believe the vaccine they took will protect them, so we created this to convince the other guy wear a mask to appease your fears.

Kinda laughable, kinda disgusting, mostly shameful when you think about it.

Treat your peers here with a bit more kindness and we will be better off than any mask wearing you might be doing for the other guy.
People should wear masks to protect themselves and others. Just because you do not care if you get covid does not mean you somehow have the right to infect others. The ignorance that has been on display from the very start of the pandemic is stunning. Wear a mask, protect yourself, and if you do not care about your own health then at least protect the people around you. Grow up!
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Old 09-18-2021, 12:22 PM   #40
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Default What are your priorities?

Let's say your priorities in the pandemic are one or more of the following:
  1. To end the pandemic as soon as possible
  2. To not die of Covid
  3. To not lose anyone close to me to Covid
  4. To be free to do what I want, when I want, where I want
  5. To not have the government force me to do something I don't want to do
  6. To not have to wear a mask
  7. To not have to get vaccinated
  8. To get businesses fully open as soon as possible
  9. To not get sick
  10. To restore the economy
  11. To not be inconvenienced
  12. To not make anyone else sick
  13. To follow the beliefs of my political party and its leader
  14. To get all the kids back in school
  15. To not have to work at home anymore
  16. To not be exposed to unmasked, unvaccinated sick people
  17. To get the whole country vaccinated
  18. To not lose my job
  19. Etc

Here's the problem: You can't have everything on that list at once. So you choose your priorities, realizing that when you choose certain things, other things aren't going to be possible. If freedom is my top priority and I won't budge on that, then I'll be giving up everything on the above list except for freedoms. You can't be 100% free and end the pandemic quickly, restore the economy, get kids back in school, keep your job, not get sick, avoid dying, and not lose anyone close to you to Covid. If protecting everyone and ending the pandemic as quickly as possible is your priority, you will be giving up the freedom to whatever you want, when you want it, without government interference.

We each have to make this choice individually, but the pandemic is not going to end until most of decide we really want it to end. If you make freedom your top priority, you're saying in effect, "Ending the pandemic quickly, restoring the economy, and saving lives are not my top priorities." I would just ask you to imagine how you personally are going to be affected if this pandemic goes on for years because not enough people want to end it. There's no way you will be able to hang onto the life you had before the pandemic, unless you live off the grid and are 100% self-sufficient.

You make trade-offs and sacrifices every day of your life. You obey the speed limit so you don't end up in jail. You pay your property taxes so the town doesn't seize your house. You may feel resentful of those things you're forced to do, but you have the good sense to realize that the payoff for doing them is worth it. You don't let your emotions overrule your intelligence.

It's the same with the pandemic: it's a simple, rational calculation of sacrifices versus benefits. Sure, we all have strong emotions about the pandemic and we all resent it, but it's rational thinking that's going to get us where we ALL want to go: an end to the virus, fully reopening businesses, and no more restrictions on what we can do in public.
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Old 09-19-2021, 06:21 AM   #41
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I don't think it is all the pandemic.
It may have started around that time, but I think a lot of it is the surge into our area and the refusal to bend to the greater good even a little bit.
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Old 09-19-2021, 10:11 AM   #42
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Not sure if this is the correct thread for this message?

If you are age-65 or older and immuno-compromised then the CVS Pharmacy all across New Hampshire have available appointment time slots for a third vaccination shot, plus you can get a flu shot as well, in the same visit.

I don't know but it's my guess they do the covid shot into one arm, and do the flu shot into the other arm?

If interested go to www.cvs.com/coronavirus to schedule an appointment.
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Old 09-20-2021, 07:55 AM   #43
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Yesterday, Sunday, at 1-pm it only took ten minutes, in and out the door, at the Plymouth CVS to get the Pjizer #3 shot into the left shoulder arm, and the flu shot into the right shoulder arm ..... have two small band aids .... using the CVS on-line appointment process.

At 5-pm I went swimming in the huge 35-meter, outdoor, 70-degree swim pool at the www.wmacwv.com and did 24-laps ...... my best number of laps so far alternating brest stroke and side stroke .... 24-laps ..... all powered up with two CVS vaccinations at the same time ..... administered by a CVS pharmacist. ....
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Old 09-20-2021, 10:00 AM   #44
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Agreed. Two other points missed above about wearing masks to protect others:

We have plenty of data now that show it does indeed protect others, it is not wishful thinking or hype.

If a community has rules that require mask wearing so that everyone is "protecting others"--then everyone is protected by everyone else. So there is a quid pro quo involved, it is not ONLY being a nice guy
And yet the overwhelming majority of people peal off their masks just as soon as they sit down at a table in a restaurant (when they are open or you can find a seat) so there is clearly no protection of others going on there and either no concern for the science, or probably closer to the truth, no belief in what the media and politicians and experts are telling us.

Same for when people exit any store with a mask requirement, they majority cant make it several steps before tearing the mask off.

Then when you take a look around you outside, I see only a tiny fraction of the population wearing masks outside,,,

Most only wear masks because its required and as a society Americans mostly follow the rules. But clearly there is either a limit to what people will do, or what they will believe.

Either way the majority of the public are not wearing masks to protect someone else, its either to protect themselves or in most cases it is simply because they are required to in certain locations.

If in this forum we have a greater proportion of benevolent and caring people, fantastic. But please excuse me if I remain a bit skeptical in the motives of people who will savagely trash anyone with a differing opinion and who dares say so. The too common hypocrisy is unconvincing.

So again, a little kindness is probably far more useful to our society than any mask wearing by the few, and when you do wear a mask, the risk from wearing untested chinese masks is probably far greater than the benefit from wearing USA made all cotton masks. If you the members of this forum disagree, ok, but show your benevolence by practicing what you preach about caring for others and not responding like omniscient jackasses and we will all get along and simply agree to disagree.

Well we will see how long that can last,,,
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Old 09-20-2021, 12:50 PM   #45
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And yet the overwhelming majority of people peal off their masks just as soon as they sit down at a table in a restaurant (when they are open or you can find a seat) so there is clearly no protection of others going on there and either no concern for the science, or probably closer to the truth, no belief in what the media and politicians and experts are telling us.

Same for when people exit any store with a mask requirement, they majority cant make it several steps before tearing the mask off.

Then when you take a look around you outside, I see only a tiny fraction of the population wearing masks outside,,,

Most only wear masks because its required and as a society Americans mostly follow the rules. But clearly there is either a limit to what people will do, or what they will believe.

Either way the majority of the public are not wearing masks to protect someone else, its either to protect themselves or in most cases it is simply because they are required to in certain locations.

If in this forum we have a greater proportion of benevolent and caring people, fantastic. But please excuse me if I remain a bit skeptical in the motives of people who will savagely trash anyone with a differing opinion and who dares say so. The too common hypocrisy is unconvincing.

So again, a little kindness is probably far more useful to our society than any mask wearing by the few, and when you do wear a mask, the risk from wearing untested chinese masks is probably far greater than the benefit from wearing USA made all cotton masks. If you the members of this forum disagree, ok, but show your benevolence by practicing what you preach about caring for others and not responding like omniscient jackasses and we will all get along and simply agree to disagree.

Well we will see how long that can last,,,
People can disagree on issues that are not fact based. For example, you could argue that the world is flat....but factually that is untrue. So, if you argued the world was flat that would make you uneducated or foolish. You could argue that masks are not protecting people but you cannot argue the science that shows they are helping. Because that is a fact and therefore not an opinion. Arguing a fact would make you....???
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:03 PM   #46
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One who argues with someone who says the world is flat is the fool. The one says it is just wrong


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Old 09-20-2021, 01:18 PM   #47
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One who argues with someone who says the world is flat is the fool. The one says it is just wrong


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We will see who is wrong and who is right on a laundry list of alleged "truths"

One only needs look back over time and see all the truths we were told, for example; DDT is safe to be fogged in massive quantities on young children, Agent Orange is non-toxic and safe for our troops, Thalidomide that was given out like aspirin to pregnant woman for nausea and caused countless thousands of children to be born with horrible birth defects, Tylenol that is still pushed by the entire medical industry over aspirin but that destroys your liver if taken too long or in too great a quantity, morphine which is still given to children with modest injuries as the first pain killer, OxyContin and Fentanyl which caused record breaking drug addictions in average Americans, Vaping which was billed as safer than smoking! Do I really need to continue. Probably not, because if you are closed minded on the matter, and not open to any other positions than "look at the data" and the "experts say", then there is little point,,,

I simply hope you are as comfortable with your positions and selections as I am with mine.

ATB
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:28 PM   #48
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People should wear masks to protect themselves and others. Just because you do not care if you get covid does not mean you somehow have the right to infect others. The ignorance that has been on display from the very start of the pandemic is stunning. Wear a mask, protect yourself, and if you do not care about your own health then at least protect the people around you. Grow up!
And there you have THE textbook example of closed minded and intolerant of differing opinions by an omniscient truth seeer, and spewing hostile responses no less. Pretty much just what I expect from the folks who stand on the soapbox and proclaim only their vision is correct.

Nice job, clearly that will go a long way to convince me to follow your kind and considerate ways to see the wisdom of your visions.

Sorry, I still disagree, hope you are not too disappointed.
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Old 09-20-2021, 01:46 PM   #49
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Was expecting someone to ask if I used a 30" swim noodle foam belt for swimming the 24-laps in the outdoor pool .......... and the answer is NO ..... no noodle needed for pool swim safety for me.

The swim noodle belt is best for rough, deep, cold, big lake water swimming as opposed to swimming a heated swim pool.

Thank-you for not asking about the noodle belt. ...... ...... now go the heck to the nearest CVS and get yourself vaccinated ...... hut-hut-hut! ...

The price is free ...... no charge ..... paid by my/your Uncle Sam ...... my type of price ...... is why I keep going back to CVS ..... three times ..... May, June, and now September ...... hut-hut-hut!

Get yourself vaccinated or go to beautiful Berlin NH ..... www.nh.gov/nhdoc/facilities/berlin.html ....
state prison amoung the many many trees, up there ..... population-562, July 1, 2020 ..... and then get vaccinated in the prison.
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Old 09-20-2021, 02:26 PM   #50
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They are providing the booster without any CDC/FDA approval?
Or is there something I am missing?

I know some of the companies that are trying to recruit me have asked whether I have the first two, and if a masking policy is a deterrent to me... but no one has brought up a third dose as of yet.
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Old 09-20-2021, 02:43 PM   #51
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Let's say your priorities in the pandemic are one or more of the following:
  1. To end the pandemic as soon as possible
  2. To not die of Covid
  3. To not lose anyone close to me to Covid
  4. To be free to do what I want, when I want, where I want
  5. To not have the government force me to do something I don't want to do
  6. To not have to wear a mask
  7. To not have to get vaccinated
  8. To get businesses fully open as soon as possible
  9. To not get sick
  10. To restore the economy
  11. To not be inconvenienced
  12. To not make anyone else sick
  13. To follow the beliefs of my political party and its leader
  14. To get all the kids back in school
  15. To not have to work at home anymore
  16. To not be exposed to unmasked, unvaccinated sick people
  17. To get the whole country vaccinated
  18. To not lose my job
  19. Etc

Here's the problem: You can't have everything on that list at once. So you choose your priorities, realizing that when you choose certain things, other things aren't going to be possible. If freedom is my top priority and I won't budge on that, then I'll be giving up everything on the above list except for freedoms. You can't be 100% free and end the pandemic quickly, restore the economy, get kids back in school, keep your job, not get sick, avoid dying, and not lose anyone close to you to Covid. If protecting everyone and ending the pandemic as quickly as possible is your priority, you will be giving up the freedom to whatever you want, when you want it, without government interference.

We each have to make this choice individually, but the pandemic is not going to end until most of decide we really want it to end. If you make freedom your top priority, you're saying in effect, "Ending the pandemic quickly, restoring the economy, and saving lives are not my top priorities." I would just ask you to imagine how you personally are going to be affected if this pandemic goes on for years because not enough people want to end it. There's no way you will be able to hang onto the life you had before the pandemic, unless you live off the grid and are 100% self-sufficient.

You make trade-offs and sacrifices every day of your life. You obey the speed limit so you don't end up in jail. You pay your property taxes so the town doesn't seize your house. You may feel resentful of those things you're forced to do, but you have the good sense to realize that the payoff for doing them is worth it. You don't let your emotions overrule your intelligence.

It's the same with the pandemic: it's a simple, rational calculation of sacrifices versus benefits. Sure, we all have strong emotions about the pandemic and we all resent it, but it's rational thinking that's going to get us where we ALL want to go: an end to the virus, fully reopening businesses, and no more restrictions on what we can do in public.
While I genuinely appreciate your efforts here, but I think we just see too many things too differently to come to agreement on this matter.

I feel like your conclusions are wrong and too many of the items you cite are what you have been told, but that they are not actually reality.

From my seat I feel like many others in that the "pandemic" should be reduced to some lower level concern. The term pandemic has been hijacked and is now a political term used for political and other purposes, but no longer applicable given the number of people who have been vaccinated and/or contracted COVID and have immunity, plus we now know so much more about how to treat infected patients that the death rate is greatly improved.

I guess my biggest disagreement is that most of what you cite on your list and reference as being contingent on vaccination and mask wearing, I believe that this is a false premise.

I expect COVID will continue to be a problem for an indefinite period like influenza. Some will continue to be sickened and die and as a whole we will be best served by the more exposure we all get to it and then build natural immunity against it. Now mind you exposure does not mean infection and infection does not mean hospitalization and hospitalization does not mean ICU and being in the ICU does not mean you will die. And in the overwhelming majority of COVID cases, people didnt even know they had it.

As a COVID survivor I was not quite so fortunate as most people, but I must confess to that of all the people I know and the hundreds of people I work with, I only know one person that was hospitalized and he said he really didnt need to be, they just did it as a precaution. And I dont know a single person that has died of COVID.

So for me I see no need to panic, I see no need for kids not to be in school and without masks, I see no need to wear masks in most places ( a few, but not many) I see no need to buy chinese masks, and I see no need to fight about all this.

If you wish to stay glued to the media and worry about it, I feel bad for you, I would say ignore it and live, but thats your choice.

But please dont impose your fears and conditions on me. Protect yourself, I'll do the same where I feel necessary, and if I believe I am at risk of exposing anyone else because I am sick or I know that I came into contact with someone else that was sick, I will quarantine. But what I wont do is live the remaining time I have in fear and take every possible precaution to reduce my exposure to near zero. I dont believe that is how our ecosystem works or our biology works best, and I dont see the impact/benefit ratio value to such actions.

Remember it was the most knowledgeable scientific minds that said the world was flat and it took a naysayer to prove they were wrong, and it was the best scientific minds that said bloodletting was the best cure for whatever medical problem you had and it took naysayers to show simple things like soap and water were better treatments, and it was the best engineering minds that said we could not make it to the moon and it took naysayers to show you that you could sit on top of a Saturn V and survive the trip.

So please consider that all the media and the politicians and the experts of today might say may not be 100% correct. But in the end make the choice you can live with and respect the other persons god given right to do the same and we will all get along fine.

ATB

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Old 09-20-2021, 02:43 PM   #52
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And there you have THE textbook example of closed minded and intolerant of differing opinions by an omniscient truth seeer, and spewing hostile responses no less. Pretty much just what I expect from the folks who stand on the soapbox and proclaim only their vision is correct.

Nice job, clearly that will go a long way to convince me to follow your kind and considerate ways to see the wisdom of your visions.

Sorry, I still disagree, hope you are not too disappointed.
You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top. As I've said before, not one of these "authorities" has lost a single dime as a result of all this BS they are pushing on others. How about the fact that Congress is exempt from the vaccines, just like they were not forced into the bogus Obamacare program that they forced on everyone else? Enough is enough. Here's a perfect example of said hypocrisy:

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainm...l-what-the-fk/

(I'll start the countdown for the reply that since this story is from Breitbart, it must be debunked in 3, 2, 1....)
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Old 09-20-2021, 02:50 PM   #53
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Was expecting someone to ask if I used a 30" swim noodle foam belt for swimming the 24-laps in the outdoor pool .......... and the answer is NO ..... no noodle needed for pool swim safety for me.

The swim noodle belt is best for rough, deep, cold, big lake water swimming as opposed to swimming a heated swim pool.

Thank-you for not asking about the noodle belt. ...... ...... now go the heck to the nearest CVS and get yourself vaccinated ...... hut-hut-hut! ...

The price is free ...... no charge ..... paid by my/your Uncle Sam ...... my type of price ...... is why I keep going back to CVS ..... three times ..... May, June, and now September ...... hut-hut-hut!

Get yourself vaccinated or go to beautiful Berlin NH ..... www.nh.gov/nhdoc/facilities/berlin.html ....
state prison amoung the many many trees, up there ..... population-562, July 1, 2020 ..... and then get vaccinated in the prison.
Well we now know the promises that the vaccine stops the virus 95+ percent of the time is not true, and many well need boosters unless they build natural immunity, BUT it sounds like in the vaccine you have found a fountain of youth! Maybe regular boosters could cure other things as well, only time will tell. Its not the first time unexpected benefits or other uses have been discovered.

As for the noodle, I can only guess you are somewhat more svelte individual than I am, otherwise you would be making a stronger and more specific pitch for the super noodle. I find standard noodles insufficient for my ~215LB 5'11" frame, but then I have a buoyancy problem from youth. As a kid I could swim out say 20' from shore and sink to the bottom and walk back out like the monster from the black lagoon. I was a great novelty for the other kids,,,

So for me its super noodle or nothing. I always keep several at the house.
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Old 09-20-2021, 02:52 PM   #54
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You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top. As I've said before, not one of these "authorities" has lost a single dime as a result of all this BS they are pushing on others. How about the fact that Congress is exempt from the vaccines, just like they were not forced into the bogus Obamacare program that they forced on everyone else? Enough is enough. Here's a perfect example of said hypocrisy:

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainm...l-what-the-fk/

(I'll start the countdown for the reply that since this story is from Breitbart, it must be debunked in 3, 2, 1....)
Havent read whats on the link yet, but I am in agreement of all you said.

ATB
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Old 09-20-2021, 04:28 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by XCR-700 View Post
We will see who is wrong and who is right on a laundry list of alleged "truths"

One only needs look back over time and see all the truths we were told, for example; DDT is safe to be fogged in massive quantities on young children, Agent Orange is non-toxic and safe for our troops, Thalidomide that was given out like aspirin to pregnant woman for nausea and caused countless thousands of children to be born with horrible birth defects, Tylenol that is still pushed by the entire medical industry over aspirin but that destroys your liver if taken too long or in too great a quantity, morphine which is still given to children with modest injuries as the first pain killer, OxyContin and Fentanyl which caused record breaking drug addictions in average Americans, Vaping which was billed as safer than smoking! Do I really need to continue. Probably not, because if you are closed minded on the matter, and not open to any other positions than "look at the data" and the "experts say", then there is little point,,,

I simply hope you are as comfortable with your positions and selections as I am with mine.

ATB
Some of these are very good reminders that the experts are not perfect (though FDA saved us from Thalidomide). But that does not mean that the experts and data have no value, or that various quacks and governors have a better plan than our public health experts and infectious disease scientists/physicians.

I'm sure you understand this. But it is dangerous when examples like this are used in a way that causes some people to believe that something like ivermectin is a better bet than a covid shot.
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Old 09-20-2021, 04:34 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot View Post
You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top. As I've said before, not one of these "authorities" has lost a single dime as a result of all this BS they are pushing on others. How about the fact that Congress is exempt from the vaccines, just like they were not forced into the bogus Obamacare program that they forced on everyone else? Enough is enough. Here's a perfect example of said hypocrisy:

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainm...l-what-the-fk/

(I'll start the countdown for the reply that since this story is from Breitbart, it must be debunked in 3, 2, 1....)
Not debunked, in this case, just a false equivalency:

"As Breitbart New [sic] reported, Emmy organizers mandated all attendees to test negative for COVID-19 and prove they have been vaccinated."

Can we do that in schools? What's the hypocrisy?

If 100% of my students and faculty were vaccinated AND tested negative, we...well, we wouldn't even have a pandemic!

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Old 09-20-2021, 04:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot View Post
You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top. As I've said before, not one of these "authorities" has lost a single dime as a result of all this BS they are pushing on others. How about the fact that Congress is exempt from the vaccines, just like they were not forced into the bogus Obamacare program that they forced on everyone else? Enough is enough. Here's a perfect example of said hypocrisy:

https://www.breitbart.com/entertainm...l-what-the-fk/

(I'll start the countdown for the reply that since this story is from Breitbart, it must be debunked in 3, 2, 1....)
The PPACA is covered under the Grassley Amendment.
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Old 09-20-2021, 05:02 PM   #58
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They are providing the booster without any CDC/FDA approval?
Or is there something I am missing?

I know some of the companies that are trying to recruit me have asked whether I have the first two, and if a masking policy is a deterrent to me... but no one has brought up a third dose as of yet.
I go getta my third Pfizer vaccine shot, yesterday, at the CVS in Plymouth. Was very easy to do. Pharmacist asked for my vaccination card and he included this new third shot. The first two also were doned at CVS-Plymouth.

Piece of cake ...... easy as pie ..... courtesy your Uncle Sam ...... if you are age-65, you can start at www.cvs.com/coronavirus to schedule an appointment. I was in and out of there in ten minutes, plus I got a flu vaccination in the other arm as well.
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Old 09-20-2021, 05:13 PM   #59
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OK. That makes more sense... 65 and older.
I am too young for the booster.
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Old 09-20-2021, 05:28 PM   #60
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Not debunked, in this case, just a false equivalency:

"As Breitbart New [sic] reported, Emmy organizers mandated all attendees to test negative for COVID-19 and prove they have been vaccinated."

Can we do that in schools? What's the hypocrisy?

If 100% of my students and faculty were vaccinated AND tested negative, we...well, we wouldn't even have a pandemic!

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What happened to “confirmation bias”? You woke guys know all the hip terms. I’m still hung up on”groovy”…

NH is only at 53% vaccination rate, and it’s not moving much from there. Live FREE or Die.
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Old 09-20-2021, 05:38 PM   #61
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What happened to “confirmation bias”? You woke guys know all the hip terms. I’m still hung up on”groovy”…

NH is only at 53% vaccination rate, and it’s not moving much from there. Live FREE or Die.
I mean, SPP's acceptance of the article as an equal comparison is confirmation bias since it fit into his worldview. I chose, instead, to focus on how it wasn't hypocritical at all and, further, what schools would love to see.

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Old 09-20-2021, 06:30 PM   #62
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What happened to “confirmation bias”? You woke guys know all the hip terms. I’m still hung up on”groovy”…

NH is only at 53% vaccination rate, and it’s not moving much from there. Live FREE or Die.
The State of NH dashboard states otherwise. And if they have had one dose, it is likely they will receive their second dose within a month and be added to the dashboard as fully vaccinated.

https://www.covid19.nh.gov/dashboard/vaccination

With local business experiencing more customers than they can handle, they can't afford any employee out sick for any reason even a single day... never mind several days of quarantine.
And with that much over demand, the businesses will also need to weed out customers... simply because they can't serve them all.
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Old 09-20-2021, 06:59 PM   #63
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I go getta my third Pfizer vaccine shot, yesterday, at the CVS in Plymouth. Was very easy to do. Pharmacist asked for my vaccination card and he included this new third shot. The first two also were doned at CVS-Plymouth.

Piece of cake ...... easy as pie ..... courtesy your Uncle Sam ...... if you are age-65, you can start at www.cvs.com/coronavirus to schedule an appointment. I was in and out of there in ten minutes, plus I got a flu vaccination in the other arm as well.
Folks; It is VERY important that "if" you are getting the third Pfizer Vaccine Shot that you make an appointment.

Why? This Vaccine is stored in a special low temperature freezer and it needs time to thaw to prepare for use. It's possible you may luck out and have it when you randomly walk in but it is best to schedule it ahead of time by making a specific appointment.

I think the CDC is now recommending it for people who are immune compromised or over 65, but you may want to confirm this with your primary Doctor.
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Old 09-20-2021, 09:06 PM   #64
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You have hit on one of the fundamental reasons that people are pushing back. The hypocrisy from those that are pushing mandates, pushing vaccines and putting hard working Americans out of business and their jobs is over the top.
Except that you've been pushing back the entire time. In early 2020, when you liked the people in the White House and people were begging for vaccines to come, you asserted covid was no worse than the flu (or you at least "thanked" posts that did). Now 600,000 are dead, and you are still asserting we should be doing less to fight the disease, and still attacking those doing everything they can to slow the spread.

So let's not say you're pushing back because of mask mandates and vaccines. Let's just acknowledge that you're pushing back because even after 600,000 dead, you still think covid is still no big deal.
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Old 09-20-2021, 09:25 PM   #65
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Some of these are very good reminders that the experts are not perfect (though FDA saved us from Thalidomide). But that does not mean that the experts and data have no value, or that various quacks and governors have a better plan than our public health experts and infectious disease scientists/physicians.

I'm sure you understand this. But it is dangerous when examples like this are used in a way that causes some people to believe that something like ivermectin is a better bet than a covid shot.
Agreed for the most part, but as I said nothing about any kook politician or anything about ivermectin I cant and will not take credit OR blame for any such interpretation.

As for Thalidomide, well maybe they have saved us, but it was only after tremendous and incalculable and unspeakable damage was done.

I dont tell anyone not to get a vaccine or not wear a mask if they want to (except chinese masks), but I also dont think they are "THE" solution either, they are simply part of a process and part of a solution. How big and important a role they play, well it will take years to honestly know that.

And with regard to data, how any person may use the data can be totally different than the next person seeing the data, and I 100% guarantee you that media and politicians will us it in yet other ways and mostly NOT for the good of the general public, or maybe better stated, if their purposes produce a public benefit, its mostly by accident.

So beware data, its only a tool. In the hands of a good backyard mechanic, tools can fix something a certified mechanic would scrap, and in the hands of a true master mechanic they can fix what the backyard mechanic cannot even understand. Most things in between are hack jobs, and so it is with data. Just remember how many times they looked at the data and were ready to crucify Sullenberger & Skiles,,, They beat that data to death again and again and again, and then there was an epiphany, and low and behold they realize the 155 people onboard flight 1549 were only alive because of the amazing actions by these 2 men that were being roasted alive for their previously characterized as error in judgement.

What it all tells me is that I must review what it said by the news, the politicians, the experts, my doctors, my friends, and whomever I feel necessary and make my own decision, but NOT follow the common consensus like a sheep being lead to slaughter.

Your decisions will be based on who you trust, and I simply advocate you stop and assess the common message and challenge it for a moment. If you are still in agreement, thats the best you can do. But too often for me, the message sounds off and the numbers dont add up, and sometimes the cure can be worse than the aliment. But from personal experience I have mixed feelings having had some problems with the "cure" in the past. The pneumonia vaccine was fine, but the shingles vaccine was down right awful. Tetanus shots are usually not good and the same for flu shots. I still get the tetanus booster, but not the flu shot anymore. As for the COVID shots/boosters, not sold on them just yet as a requirement for all, as a COVID survivor with lingering problems, I can honestly say sorry the verdict is not yet final for me. Not ready to agree with the necessity to mandate them for everyone just yet and at the moment, I seem to be less and less supportive of it as a requirement vs a personal choice. And a personal choice with no discrimination against the unvaccinated tolerated, just like the flu vaccine. I personally will not sit and see attacks against those who chose whats best for themselves in this complex matter.

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Old 09-20-2021, 11:22 PM   #66
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Agreed for the most part, but as I said nothing about any kook politician or anything about ivermectin I cant and will not take credit OR blame for any such interpretation.

As for Thalidomide, well maybe they have saved us, but it was only after tremendous and incalculable and unspeakable damage was done.

I dont tell anyone not to get a vaccine or not wear a mask if they want to (except chinese masks), but I also dont think they are "THE" solution either, they are simply part of a process and part of a solution. How big and important a role they play, well it will take years to honestly know that.

And with regard to data, how any person may use the data can be totally different than the next person seeing the data, and I 100% guarantee you that media and politicians will us it in yet other ways and mostly NOT for the good of the general public, or maybe better stated, if their purposes produce a public benefit, its mostly by accident.

So beware data, its only a tool. In the hands of a good backyard mechanic, tools can fix something a certified mechanic would scrap, and in the hands of a true master mechanic they can fix what the backyard mechanic cannot even understand. Most things in between are hack jobs, and so it is with data. Just remember how many times they looked at the data and were ready to crucify Sullenberger & Skiles,,, They beat that data to death again and again and again, and then there was an epiphany, and low and behold they realize the 155 people onboard flight 1549 were only alive because of the amazing actions by these 2 men that were being roasted alive for their previously characterized as error in judgement.

What it all tells me is that I must review what it said by the news, the politicians, the experts, my doctors, my friends, and whomever I feel necessary and make my own decision, but NOT follow the common consensus like a sheep being lead to slaughter.

Your decisions will be based on who you trust, and I simply advocate you stop and assess the common message and challenge it for a moment. If you are still in agreement, thats the best you can do. But too often for me, the message sounds off and the numbers dont add up, and sometimes the cure can be worse than the aliment. But from personal experience I have mixed feelings having had some problems with the "cure" in the past. The pneumonia vaccine was fine, but the shingles vaccine was down right awful. Tetanus shots are usually not good and the same for flu shots. I still get the tetanus booster, but not the flu shot anymore. As for the COVID shots/boosters, not sold on them just yet as a requirement for all, as a COVID survivor with lingering problems, I can honestly say sorry the verdict is not yet final for me. Not ready to agree with the necessity to mandate them for everyone just yet and at the moment, I seem to be less and less supportive of it as a requirement vs a personal choice. And a personal choice with no discrimination against the unvaccinated tolerated, just like the flu vaccine. I personally will not sit and see attacks against those who chose whats best for themselves in this complex matter.

ATB
You need to talk to people in places where they’ve ignored the prescribed procedures. I’m back in FL now. A bartender where I frequent did not get vaccinated because she didn’t want to be told what to do. That’s the response of a child. She got Covid. She would redo what she did in the past, after being knocked on her butt for 3 weeks, and still struggling with long-term after effects. All of this is not about individual freedoms. You are a part of a society and need to act as such. The Terminator was right…people in this country need to take a civics course to understand how their individual decisions affect the greater populace. I reiterate…YOU ARE A PART OF A SOCIETY.


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Old 09-20-2021, 11:24 PM   #67
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So lets say that I chose to never engage a customer that did not have a complete vaccine card. Would that be me making a choice? Or would that be an attack against the unvaccinated?
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Old 09-21-2021, 12:25 AM   #68
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So lets say that I chose to never engage a customer that did not have a complete vaccine card. Would that be me making a choice? Or would that be an attack against the unvaccinated?
Interesting that you pick such a battle ground and to such an extreme, when never before did we decide how to treat people based on their vaccination status.

For things far worse than COVID, we have never had such levels of discrimination rear its ugly head.

And now that you know that the vaccine does not provide the levels of protection they initially claimed it did, why are we hanging our hat on a vaccination card.

Why because politicians set this battle up for god only knows what nefarious reasons.

Whats next, send the unvaccinated to Molokaʻi to live with the Lepers?

Sterilization like they did to downs patients?

Beating up people in the streets like they did to HIV/AIDS patients.

Is this the kind of society you really want to live in,,,

Even now there are very legitimate questions being raised about the actual impact of COVID ( https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...n_counted.html ) and the answers are not good.

So then are you really that guy?

And if so why, because NH had one official COVID death today and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths. Doesnt quite seem sufficient to warrant such a panic as to discriminate against someone for not getting vaccinated.

Its all just a bit too divisive for me. If this is really who some of you are, I was mistaken about who I thought was participating on this forum.

Certainly not the kind of people who claim to be wearing masks to protect others,,,

Maybe its time to start thinking about this in different terms, rather than the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.

or maybe not,,,
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Old 09-21-2021, 12:40 AM   #69
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YOU ARE A PART OF A SOCIETY.


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Agreed, and in society you respect others choices!

So for the greater good should we be banishing gays and lesbians, because of such narrow minded perspectives.

Should we cast out the poor and old.

Should woman be stripped of all the rights they have fought so hard for, just so that for the greater good of society we can have things the way a select few of omniscient people think they should be.

I think you have this notion of a society backwards.

Choosing not to get vaccinated is not like walking around with dirty infected needles and intentionally stabbing people, its making a difficult choice about what you believe is best to protect yourself.

Would you have the national guard driving down the streets of America with cases of needles dragging people out of their homes and forcibly vaccinating them?

Where does this madness end.

This is utterly horrifying to see devolving into such a mess.

I hope we survive these narrow minded perspectives of dictating how people must live their lives. Life is already short enough and difficult enough without someone else telling you what medical choices you must make about your body to make them feel comfortable.
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Old 09-21-2021, 01:34 AM   #70
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While I genuinely appreciate your efforts here, but I think we just see too many things too differently to come to agreement on this matter.

I feel like your conclusions are wrong and too many of the items you cite are what you have been told, but that they are not actually reality.

From my seat I feel like many others in that the "pandemic" should be reduced to some lower level concern. The term pandemic has been hijacked and is now a political term used for political and other purposes, but no longer applicable given the number of people who have been vaccinated and/or contracted COVID and have immunity, plus we now know so much more about how to treat infected patients that the death rate is greatly improved.

I guess my biggest disagreement is that most of what you cite on your list and reference as being contingent on vaccination and mask wearing, I believe that this is a false premise.

I expect COVID will continue to be a problem for an indefinite period like influenza. Some will continue to be sickened and die and as a whole we will be best served by the more exposure we all get to it and then build natural immunity against it. Now mind you exposure does not mean infection and infection does not mean hospitalization and hospitalization does not mean ICU and being in the ICU does not mean you will die. And in the overwhelming majority of COVID cases, people didnt even know they had it.

As a COVID survivor I was not quite so fortunate as most people, but I must confess to that of all the people I know and the hundreds of people I work with, I only know one person that was hospitalized and he said he really didnt need to be, they just did it as a precaution. And I dont know a single person that has died of COVID.

So for me I see no need to panic, I see no need for kids not to be in school and without masks, I see no need to wear masks in most places ( a few, but not many) I see no need to buy chinese masks, and I see no need to fight about all this.

If you wish to stay glued to the media and worry about it, I feel bad for you, I would say ignore it and live, but thats your choice.

But please dont impose your fears and conditions on me. Protect yourself, I'll do the same where I feel necessary, and if I believe I am at risk of exposing anyone else because I am sick or I know that I came into contact with someone else that was sick, I will quarantine. But what I wont do is live the remaining time I have in fear and take every possible precaution to reduce my exposure to near zero. I dont believe that is how our ecosystem works or our biology works best, and I dont see the impact/benefit ratio value to such actions.

Remember it was the most knowledgeable scientific minds that said the world was flat and it took a naysayer to prove they were wrong, and it was the best scientific minds that said bloodletting was the best cure for whatever medical problem you had and it took naysayers to show simple things like soap and water were better treatments, and it was the best engineering minds that said we could not make it to the moon and it took naysayers to show you that you could sit on top of a Saturn V and survive the trip.

So please consider that all the media and the politicians and the experts of today might say may not be 100% correct. But in the end make the choice you can live with and respect the other persons god given right to do the same and we will all get along fine.

ATB
Did you know there is a strong correlation of the more educated you are the more likely to get vaccinated?

Same goes for wearing masks.

https://news.usc.edu/182848/educatio...sks-usc-study/

So it kind of all makes sense. They just don’t know any better.
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Old 09-21-2021, 01:46 AM   #71
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Interesting that you pick such a battle ground and to such an extreme, when never before did we decide how to treat people based on their vaccination status.

For things far worse than COVID, we have never had such levels of discrimination rear its ugly head.

And now that you know that the vaccine does not provide the levels of protection they initially claimed it did, why are we hanging our hat on a vaccination card.

Why because politicians set this battle up for god only knows what nefarious reasons.

Whats next, send the unvaccinated to Molokaʻi to live with the Lepers?

Sterilization like they did to downs patients?

Beating up people in the streets like they did to HIV/AIDS patients.

Is this the kind of society you really want to live in,,,

Even now there are very legitimate questions being raised about the actual impact of COVID ( https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...n_counted.html ) and the answers are not good.

So then are you really that guy?

And if so why, because NH had one official COVID death today and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths. Doesnt quite seem sufficient to warrant such a panic as to discriminate against someone for not getting vaccinated.

Its all just a bit too divisive for me. If this is really who some of you are, I was mistaken about who I thought was participating on this forum.

Certainly not the kind of people who claim to be wearing masks to protect others,,,

Maybe its time to start thinking about this in different terms, rather than the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.

or maybe not,,,
I didn't. You did. You have determined that one person can make a choice, but the other is not allowed.
We could do it for anything. If a customer chooses to wear a hat, and I choose not to serve customers wearing hats... is that an attack against people that wear hats?

Or is it there choice and the other party needs to refrain?

You keep bringing up protected classes... but these aren't protected classes of people.

In my particular case, I don't ask anyone, because I generally only deal with customers through e*mails and phone communications. The outside salespeople deal directly with the contractors and homeowners, and I only rarely see them when they have an appointment. I might catch them now and again if the salesperson is doing something intricate and needs my assistance to complete it.

But even with direct contact, I am never in close proximity to a customer for any length of time.

So a validation of vaccination would be pointless.

Maybe everyone will go back to wearing a mask... but will the unvaccinated really like that option either?

And you keep bringing up deaths... which is really not the most prominent issue. It is the loss of limited employee hours. That is the most tenuous issue we are currently dealing with.
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Old 09-21-2021, 07:04 AM   #72
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Did you know there is a strong correlation of the more educated you are the more likely to get vaccinated?

Same goes for wearing masks.

https://news.usc.edu/182848/educatio...sks-usc-study/

So it kind of all makes sense. They just don’t know any better.
Well I suppose thats telling that this is what anyone is concerned about.

And when the educated need something repaired and all they can find is uneducated non-vaccinated tradesman I wonder how that will go,,,

With the current trends for everyones kids to go to college and work in offices, I see lots of opportunity for the uneducated non-vaccinated tradesman to make lots of money in the future ;-)

You might have uncovered a true golden nugget.
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Old 09-21-2021, 07:27 AM   #73
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Default I had a friend who argued against masks and vaccines

Maybe Covid and the response to it is just part of evolution as the stupid people get removed from the earth. I had a friends who argued that Covid was a political hoax staged by the democrats. He then laughed at the idiots who wore masks. When the vaccines came out he staunchly opposed them. When he caught Covid he told people it was a joke because he felt fine...UNTIL he didn't feel fine. By then it was too late for the antibody treatment but he would not have done that anyway.

He becomes so sick he goes to the hospital and is on oxygen for 2 weeks then he placed on a ventilator for 2 weeks. Finally he is place on an ECMO machine but Covid finally won and he died. He was 43 years old and left a young boy without a Dad. He was a very, very kind and generous soul but his stupidity not Covid killed him. My heart goes out to him and his family but he made his choice, which he was free to do because his opinion was Covid was a joke. The joke was on him and he and his family paid the price.

People are free to argue and have uneducated opinions. But when those "opinions" risk infecting other people because they refuse to behave in a responsible way they become predators. I understand my post will not change a single thing because somehow people have lost the ability to critically think.
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Old 09-21-2021, 07:39 AM   #74
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I didn't. You did. You have determined that one person can make a choice, but the other is not allowed.
We could do it for anything. If a customer chooses to wear a hat, and I choose not to serve customers wearing hats... is that an attack against people that wear hats?

Or is it there choice and the other party needs to refrain?

You keep bringing up protected classes... but these aren't protected classes of people.

In my particular case, I don't ask anyone, because I generally only deal with customers through e*mails and phone communications. The outside salespeople deal directly with the contractors and homeowners, and I only rarely see them when they have an appointment. I might catch them now and again if the salesperson is doing something intricate and needs my assistance to complete it.

But even with direct contact, I am never in close proximity to a customer for any length of time.

So a validation of vaccination would be pointless.

Maybe everyone will go back to wearing a mask... but will the unvaccinated really like that option either?

And you keep bringing up deaths... which is really not the most prominent issue. It is the loss of limited employee hours. That is the most tenuous issue we are currently dealing with.
Not sure how deaths is not the most prominent matter of concern,,, Clearly it rises above all else and hopefully the people who are clear of mind will see this is the benchmark of most concern in declaring a pandemic. Other considerations are important, but fall far behind deaths.

The loss of employee hours is a certainly a concern, but could also be looked at differently, it could open up opportunities for others.

As for you constant reasons to discriminate against the unvaccinated or the hat wearers, they need not be in a protected class to be discriminated against. And eventually you will find your equilibrium, you will have your customers, and the ones you turn away will find someone that is happy to have them and it will be as it has been for thousands or years where someone in the future will wonder how the world got so screwed up because people lived in fear of some matter that no longer exists. So if discriminating against any hat wearer makes you feel safe and happier, so be it. I'm not your morality monitor, you have to live your life and do what you can live with, and if that means living in the plastic bubble that is an option.

As a society we discriminate all the time, the banning of indoor smoking is a good example.

Whatever you decide own if, and if you think you are without prejudice, think again, I think prejudice and the desire to control others and even the like for conflict is programmed into the human DNA, you can try to fight it, hopefully most do, but it is there always nagging at us. Try to rise above it and be the best you can, but you will not beat it. Best you will do is a compromise of tolerance of what you dislike.
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Old 09-21-2021, 08:40 AM   #75
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Maybe Covid and the response to it is just part of evolution as the stupid people get removed from the earth. I had a friends who argued that Covid was a political hoax staged by the democrats. He then laughed at the idiots who wore masks. When the vaccines came out he staunchly opposed them. When he caught Covid he told people it was a joke because he felt fine...UNTIL he didn't feel fine. By then it was too late for the antibody treatment but he would not have done that anyway.

He becomes so sick he goes to the hospital and is on oxygen for 2 weeks then he placed on a ventilator for 2 weeks. Finally he is place on an ECMO machine but Covid finally won and he died. He was 43 years old and left a young boy without a Dad. He was a very, very kind and generous soul but his stupidity not Covid killed him. My heart goes out to him and his family but he made his choice, which he was free to do because his opinion was Covid was a joke. The joke was on him and he and his family paid the price.

People are free to argue and have uneducated opinions. But when those "opinions" risk infecting other people because they refuse to behave in a responsible way they become predators. I understand my post will not change a single thing because somehow people have lost the ability to critically think.
A very tragic sad story, and the sad part is you remember your friend as "stupid" rather than respecting his decisions about how he chose to live his life. He choose free choice over fear, maybe it was a bad choice, but it was his to make and he did.

So would someone joining the military and going to war and then dies also be stupid? Maybe to some,,,

Remember your friend as "very, very kind and generous soul" not as a stupid person who had the "joke" turned on him and his family.

No one lives forever. If COVID didnt get him he may have lived to be 100 and died of old age, or he may have slipped and fallen and died yesterday in the bath tub or lost his footing climbing Mt Major and fallen to his death next year. Does how he died have to taint your memory of him so badly you really need to remember him as stupid,,,

Just something to think about.

Again so much hostility and anger and intolerance, and so so much fear.

Its really disheartening to se so many people so worked up over this.

Make your decision about what you need to do for yourself and let the other person do the same and then own it and live.

Life cannot stop over all this, and why should it? NH official COVID deaths yesterday 1 and a 7 day average of 2 COVID deaths.
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Old 09-21-2021, 10:14 AM   #76
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So people who choose not to get the vaccine are more likely to be uneducated, i.e. hicks, rubes, rednecks, s***kickers, overalls-wearing dolts? Such an elitist attitude. Remember that a lot of people from Massachusetts think the whole of the NH populace are just such people. Obviously both blanket conclusions are wrong.

Some people are educated beyond their intelligence. Lincoln, Truman, Gates, and Zuckerberg didn’t graduate college. We need the high school graduates to give jobs to the college graduates.


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Old 09-21-2021, 10:17 AM   #77
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Agreed, and in society you respect others choices!

So for the greater good should we be banishing gays and lesbians, because of such narrow minded perspectives.

Should we cast out the poor and old.

Should woman be stripped of all the rights they have fought so hard for, just so that for the greater good of society we can have things the way a select few of omniscient people think they should be.

I think you have this notion of a society backwards.

Choosing not to get vaccinated is not like walking around with dirty infected needles and intentionally stabbing people, its making a difficult choice about what you believe is best to protect yourself.

Would you have the national guard driving down the streets of America with cases of needles dragging people out of their homes and forcibly vaccinating them?

Where does this madness end.

This is utterly horrifying to see devolving into such a mess.

I hope we survive these narrow minded perspectives of dictating how people must live their lives. Life is already short enough and difficult enough without someone else telling you what medical choices you must make about your body to make them feel comfortable.
Flawed argument. Your sexuality, your age, your gender are not choices, but inherent to your being. Your thought process is flawed. Perhaps you should take a logic class and a civics class.


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Old 09-21-2021, 10:55 AM   #78
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So people who choose not to get the vaccine are more likely to be uneducated, i.e. hicks, rubes, rednecks, s***kickers, overalls-wearing dolts? Such an elitist attitude. Remember that a lot of people from Massachusetts think the whole of the NH populace are just such people. Obviously both blanket conclusions are wrong.

Some people are educated beyond their intelligence. Lincoln, Truman, Gates, and Zuckerberg didn’t graduate college. We need the high school graduates to give jobs to the college graduates.


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Those with college degrees have a higher rate of vaccination than those that do not. I'm not passing judgment nor calling anyone names. I am from MA - but please don't make assumptions about me based on where I reside. Just like New Hampshire (and Maine) there are many different parts of the state. We don't all think alike.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:05 AM   #79
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Flawed argument. Your sexuality, your age, your gender are not choices, but inherent to your being. Your thought process is flawed. Perhaps you should take a logic class and a civics class.




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Or maybe I should not engage in conversations with closed minded, intolerant, authoritarian, and totalitarian minded people.

Well its one option ;-)

I suppose it comes down to perspective and values and rights.

Some will always value freedom of choice over safety and other concerns. And most of them will live with their mistakes to be sure they can continue being able to make independent decisions about matters they consider important.

Others will always seek the warm blanket of conformity. (Well usually right up to the point when it doesn't go their way,,,)

Then there are some people who will always just want it their way, and too bad for the other guy. And they will seek to impose their standards on others regardless if they practice such standards themselves,,,

Its a diverse world to say the least.

Its a shame some have such little respect for the other persons desire to make decisions about their health for themselves.

Its a shame so many live in such fear; NH official COVID deaths Sept 20 2021 = 1, and a 7 day average of 2.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:21 AM   #80
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Or maybe I should not engage in conversations with closed minded, intolerant, authoritarian, and totalitarian minded people.

Well its one option ;-)

I suppose it comes down to perspective and values and rights.

Some will always value freedom of choice over safety and other concerns. And most of them will live with their mistakes to be sure they can continue being able to make independent decisions about matters they consider important.

Others will always seek the warm blanket of conformity. (Well usually right up to the point when it doesn't go their way,,,)

Then there are some people who will always just want it their way, and too bad for the other guy. And they will seek to impose their standards on others regardless if they practice such standards themselves,,,

Its a diverse world to say the least.

Its a shame some have such little respect for the other persons desire to make decisions about their health for themselves.

Its a shame so many live in such fear; NH official COVID deaths Sept 20 2021 = 1, and a 7 day average of 2.
I have no problem with people making their own life choices when it doesn’t affect me. That’s not the case with this virus. Not sure why you think your freedom to choose supersedes my freedom to live virus free. Sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

You frequently insinuate that people who are concerned about the virus are living in fear. There is rational fear and irrational fear. Being concerned about a global pandemic is rational. Fearing that the National Guard is going to be deployed to drag people from their homes to be vaccinated is irrational.


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Old 09-21-2021, 12:05 PM   #81
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If a person has been vaxxed (as I have) why is there fear of the unvaxxed? Why is there a need to bully the unvaxxed? If they choose not to be vaxxed it has no bearing on my day to day life.

The vax is not a cure and thankfully they have switched the marketing to reflect that.

This is an engineered "gain of function" virus. It is not going anywhere... EVER! There will ALWAYS be some new variant from somewhere popping up.

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Old 09-21-2021, 12:15 PM   #82
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Because most of the people are not dying.
We have some hospitalizations, which are much more costly than vaccination, and those will add to future health care costs through medical insurance; but for the most part we have several thousand in each surge that must quarantine and can not be available to work.

With the worker shortage, that places more pressure on the remaining.

Since we already can not service customers to their full expectations in the area, when we reduce the workforce for even a short period of time, the problem spirals.

Since we can not find more workers, and when we do it takes time to develop their skill sets, the only option is to limit customers by some means. Some businesses have done this with their schedule, others with other formats.
Some have done it well, others not so well.

From the threads here, the Meredith Subway was offering a lot more money per hour than the Meredith McDonald's. McDonald's is open, the Subway is closed. It could be more than labor troubles, but that seems to be the trend.

Of the 1458 deaths we've had in NH, approximately 132 have been since the vaccine has been widely available here. And none have been in those too young to qualify for the vaccine. Though we deeply regret those deaths, and can not determine from the State data how many may have been vaccinated, the latest surge in cases is really have more effect on that lost-time.

Vaccinated individuals that test positive are suggested that they mask for the quarantine period when in enclosed public buildings, but unvaccinated must isolate for the quarantine period.

So while the deaths are regretful and we mourn the loss, it isn't the largest impact currently. I carry a mask and put it on should a customer request it, I always try to maintain some distance, I wash/disinfect my hands repeatedly, and we have dramatically increased the air quality in the facility.

But every business is going to be ''discriminating'' on what customers it wants as long as the labor shortage exists.

For me, I am looking for the customers that see us as a partnership. But for others, that vaccine status/masking may be on their agenda.
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Old 09-21-2021, 12:26 PM   #83
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I have no problem with people making their own life choices when it doesn’t affect me. That’s not the case with this virus. Not sure why you think your freedom to choose supersedes my freedom to live virus free. Sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

You frequently insinuate that people who are concerned about the virus are living in fear. There is rational fear and irrational fear. Being concerned about a global pandemic is rational. Fearing that the National Guard is going to be deployed to drag people from their homes to be vaccinated is irrational.


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Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.
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Old 09-21-2021, 12:53 PM   #84
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Gilly, no one in the history of man has lived virus-free.

Garcia, I agree with you completely. I’m from Mass. too.


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Old 09-21-2021, 01:17 PM   #85
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Why do you assume that you, me or anyone will become infected, get sick and suffer, when only ~10% of the population has tested positive to COVID, and well less than 1 percent have died. How does this constitute a threat so sever that your fear of infection overrides anyone elses free choice of medical treatment.

Isnt that fear of some significant impact from COVID the irrational concern?

My desire to allow others to choose their medical treatment.

Now if you had a continuing situation like NY saw in the beginning where they needed refrigerated trailers to store the dead bodies, I would agree with your concerns, but we are so far from that today and really dont understand how we continue with most of the current COVID actions.

The best medicine is what mother nature provides, not what shot you and others decide someone else needs. Human are built to adapt and overcome. Its not an instant solution, but it does work when you let it. So in reality isnt reserving medical intervention to those who are seeking it, or when you truly reach an emergency situation the better choice???

After all, you are the one concerned and yet you have taken yourself to FLA where the infection rate is higher then NH. And to do what, demand your neighbors get vaccinated so you can feel comfortable around them? Sorry that strikes me as backwards logic.
I’m really not worried about catching COVID because of the precautions I take, but I do worry for those who can’t get vaccinated. I worry what this is continuing to do to the economy. And I’m concerned at the lack of critical thinking by many in this country. My opinion, backed by science, is vaccination of more people will get us closer to normal faster.

Here in COVID Central, they brought in refrigerated trailers to store the bodies a few weeks ago, cancer treatments are being cancelled, and “elective surgeries” are being postponed. So by your standards, it is an emergency situation here.

You’re very good at assuming things about me just because I’m pro-vaccination. It’s what I hope people will do. If they’re civic-minded, they will. I demand nothing of my neighbors. It seems to me you’re the one demanding things.


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Old 09-21-2021, 01:19 PM   #86
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Gilly, no one in the history of man has lived virus-free.

Garcia, I agree with you completely. I’m from Mass. too.


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And where the hell did I ever say we have? God, the illogical leaps people make.


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Old 09-21-2021, 01:37 PM   #87
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Lol it was just an oblique reference to your having referenced your freedom to live virus-free. I know what you meant, but there is no such freedom. Life must be lived.


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Old 09-21-2021, 02:50 PM   #88
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I’m really not worried about catching COVID because of the precautions I take, but I do worry for those who can’t get vaccinated. I worry what this is continuing to do to the economy. And I’m concerned at the lack of critical thinking by many in this country. My opinion, backed by science, is vaccination of more people will get us closer to normal faster.
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Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

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Old 09-21-2021, 03:11 PM   #89
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Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

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As long as people comply with requirements that private businesses might choose to enforce to keep their employees safe, I have no issue with people who choose to forego vaccination. I wish they would, but that’s where it stops.


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Old 09-21-2021, 03:32 PM   #90
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What if every vaccinated individual wears a gold star on their lapel. That way like others can feel safe. You could even wave to each other like Harley rides do


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Old 09-21-2021, 03:46 PM   #91
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What if every vaccinated individual wears a gold star on their lapel. That way like others can feel safe. You could even wave to each other like Harley rides do


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Oh sorry, I'm not really a jewelry guy, my wedding band is safely locked away and I havent even had a wrist watch since we all got cell phones,,,

How about this as a way to commemorate their accomplishments, and encourage those who are still un-vaccinated, the people who are vaccinated could get a giant V tattooed on their forehead to proudly ID they status. And then with each booster they could circle the big V with little B's. Kinda like all the Hollywood and other cool people that get neck tattoos and such. It would make a bold statement.

Just a thought.
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:50 PM   #92
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Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

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You keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:23 PM   #93
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Good than we have no disagreement of concern, as I too am pro-vaccination, I simply believe its not "the" solution, its just part of a solution. And that the vaccines are not without their own problems, AND its every persons personal choice to get vaccinated or not. And finally that we should not discriminate against those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Is that really unreasonable? Well apparently for some. Glad you are not in the mandatory/forced vaccination advocacy group.

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I do not think people should be bullied or ridiculed or forced. But I am exercising my freedom as a business owner to require all of our employees to be vaxxed. We are already at 100%, so it's easy for us to do. Lots of hiring coming up this year--we'll be telling the unvaxxed not to bother applying (in a kind way that does not violate the law)
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:30 PM   #94
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You keep suggesting that it is a choice to get vaccinated/wear a mask, but not a choice not to interact with those that are not vaccinated/wear a mask.
All parties have the choice.
No idea what you are saying, I thought it was you who wanted no interaction with the unvaccinated.

I have ZERO interesting in knowing what anyone elses vaccination status is, they are all the same to me. I dont believe vaccinated people have not risk of infecting others and I think the risk from unvaccinated people who are not showing clear signs of infection also pose very little risk to me so I treat them all the same even when I do know their status.

If you are happy to have people make their own choice about vaccination and treat them with respect and dignity we are on the same page.

Sounds like a win/win for everyone. One can only hope,,,
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:01 PM   #95
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Because you keep saying that the unvaccinated should not be discriminated against... which means that you do not believe those that are vaccinated have a choice... just the unvaccinated have that choice.

You're stating they should have a choice, but I shouldn't.
The world no longer works like that.

Employers listening to their employees have employees, those that do not listen do not.

Neither you or I get to determine that. We just know that now businesses are asking their employees to mask up to protect the unvaccinated.
Those employees feel forced to do something they don't want to do, because some else made the choice not to be vaccinated.

It is only going to get worse as the vaccine becomes available for the younger groups.
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:02 PM   #96
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I do not think people should be bullied or ridiculed or forced. But I am exercising my freedom as a business owner to require all of our employees to be vaxxed. We are already at 100%, so it's easy for us to do. Lots of hiring coming up this year--we'll be telling the unvaxxed not to bother applying (in a kind way that does not violate the law)
I think that is a wholly unnecessary tragedy, and personally I probably would not apply somewhere like that nor would choose to shop there unless there are literally no other options (assuming its a retail business), but thats your choice.

I feel certain that the tragedy of the intentional fear mongering that you have been subjected to and that produces decisions like this will not fully understood for years.

Its like reliving the AIDS/HIV crisis all over again, and maybe worse as we should have learned that lesson. Its so disheartening to see this again. Maybe its just human nature to harbor such fear and practice such discrimination,,,
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:16 PM   #97
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Because you keep saying that the unvaccinated should not be discriminated against... which means that you do not believe those that are vaccinated have a choice... just the unvaccinated have that choice.

You're stating they should have a choice, but I shouldn't.
The world no longer works like that.

Employers listening to their employees have employees, those that do not listen do not.

Neither you or I get to determine that. We just know that now businesses are asking their employees to mask up to protect the unvaccinated.
Those employees feel forced to do something they don't want to do, because some else made the choice not to be vaccinated.

It is only going to get worse as the vaccine becomes available for the younger groups.
Honestly I have no idea what you are saying.

Clearly we live on different planets.

You can go live in your plastic bubble anytime you want, no one is stopping you, you just cannot impose your will on others. What is so hard to figure out about that?

You cannot liken the unvaccinated's choice to not get the vaccine to your decision that they must have it. That makes no sense at all.

Its as if you think they are doing it intentionally to harm you, when all they are doing is trying to make the best decision for their health.

At the moment there is a huge underground concern being generated by woman who are considering having children and who are uncertain about the assurances this is 100% safe for them. There are others who have had bad previous experiences with vaccines who are skeptical about getting the vaccine. There are literally thousands of people who have had COVID and worry about getting the vaccine after having had the virus. There are people suffering long-haul COVID who fear any additional exposure and dont want the vaccine. And the list goes on and on of people who are trying to sort through the media hype and political rhetoric to determine whats the safest choice.

Are there people who think crazy things like its a scam, or its some bad government experiment, or that aliens will use it to track us, sure, but they are small in number and should not be of concern.

But if you are thinking anyone is not getting the vaccine to intentionally put you at risk, well that as far fetched as as the alien tracking notion or the people taking animal worming medication.

Sorry I just dont get the argument you are trying to make.

Not sure its really worth either of our time to make the connection that seems impossible to make here.
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:18 PM   #98
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Why?
You stated you would discriminate against his business.
Doesn't he get a choice? Or is it only those that make choices that you agree with?
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Old 09-21-2021, 06:21 PM   #99
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Simple change the words from unvaccinated and vaccinated to homosexual and straight and hear how you all sound.


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Old 09-21-2021, 06:21 PM   #100
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And what kind of business are you in that your customers and co-workers could give you HIV?
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