Electric on islands

[Jumbie98]

I have a small island and I am in the process of working with nhec to get electric service to it...has anyone had experience / can recommend some approved contractors? Any advice from those of you that have been through the process? Many thanks!

[Island-Ho]

I'd skip the hassle and expense and join the next century! Go solar and be independent. The minimal needs of a small island can be easily satisfied with a combination of bottled gas and solar panels. Add to that the satisfaction of living without the boob tube and you're golden!

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Island-Ho

I'd skip the hassle and expense and join the next century! Go solar and be independent. The minimal needs of a small island can be easily satisfied with a combination of bottled gas and solar panels. Add to that the satisfaction of living without the boob tube and you're golden!

Sorry, but solar power is nothing but a stopgap toy. The technology needs an improvement by about 2 orders of magnitude (beyond anything that has been done or hyped so far) in order to be truly viable.

New England in general is not the best place for solar power, even as just a seasonal solution. Limited space (a small island) can cause even more issues if you have shading issues with trees and foliage on the island.

Not to mention the average payback time on a solar investment is about 12-15 years. The average lifespan of the batteries is about 6 years, and the panels about 10. It's a losing battle.

But, if you ignore all the facts and want to live like it's the 1800's, solar power is a good way to get a false sense of satisfaction.

[Kamper]

You can probably buy and fuel a gen-set for 10 years on what it would cost you to get wire service. Much quicker too since you don't have to worry about EPA studies and the additional permits or liability.

(IMO)

[tis]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Sorry, but solar power is nothing but a stopgap toy. The technology needs an improvement by about 2 orders of magnitude (beyond anything that has been done or hyped so far) in order to be truly viable.

New England in general is not the best place for solar power, even as just a seasonal solution. Limited space (a small island) can cause even more issues if you have shading issues with trees and foliage on the island.

Not to mention the average payback time on a solar investment is about 12-15 years. The average lifespan of the batteries is about 6 years, and the panels about 10. It's a losing battle.

But, if you ignore all the facts and want to live like it's the 1800's, solar power is a good way to get a false sense of satisfaction.

What you said seems to be so true. They tell us we need to become independent but when you want to there is no way to go. We just recently put a new furnace in and I so wanted to use an alternative. But after as much investigating as we could do, there is not really a choice. No matter what you do you need a backup like wood or oil. So where do you gain?
It is very discouraging.

[Jumbie98]

I have explored all the options...the best for my needs seems to be electric service . Not great positioning for solar (I'd have to remove a large number of my canopy trees) and for a septic system, I need more reliability than a generator..

[codeman671]

What island are you on? Is there another island in the proxomity that has power already to feed into? It may not be as bad as you think, and NHEC should be able to do the job from start to finish.

I looked at an island lot a while ago that did not have power and was quoted $12-15k to bring power to it. Won't say which one, I still want the property!

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Jumbie98

and for a septic system, I need more reliability than a generator..

Just curious, what is it about your septic that needs reliable power, especially when you're away? I'm assuming that it is some kind of pump-up septic system?

A generator is also a costly option, both to purchase and run, as compared to basic electrical service. A 10Kw genset would cover the majority of the needs of a small household, you'll have a few scenarios where you don't have enough power (especially if you use electric heat in any way (hot water, stove, etc.)).

However, a decent quality dry-gas generator should be extremely reliable. Couple that with a small UPS for things like the septic pump, and you should have an overall reliability factor that would be as good as what you'd expect in the lakes region with utility power on an island.

Personally, I'd still go with the commercial power since I'd rather not have to spend any of my free time doing generator maintenance, even if it is only yearly.

[Dr. Green]

Originally Posted by brk-lnt

Sorry, but solar power is nothing but a stopgap toy. The technology needs an improvement by about 2 orders of magnitude (beyond anything that has been done or hyped so far) in order to be truly viable.

Not to mention the average payback time on a solar investment is about 12-15 years. The average lifespan of the batteries is about 6 years, and the panels about 10. It's a losing battle.

But, if you ignore all the facts and want to live like it's the 1800's, solar power is a good way to get a false sense of satisfaction.

Amazing how misinformed some people can be.

While it is true Arizona and California do get more solar power than NH, we get plenty here. The country with the most solar electric capacity per capita (Germany) gets LESS solar insolation than NH.. Plus, since solar output is higher at lower temperatures, while NH has less hours of solar than the SW, we get more solar electricity produced per hour of sunlight!

The payback is about 12-15 years - taking into account the 30% rebate (off your income taxes) by the federal government; however, the panels last longer than 10 years. brk-Int is seriously uninformed. Most solar panels are warrantied to product 80% of their rated power after 25 years - in fact, they average 90% of power (solar companies do not want to be paying warrenty repairs and set the bar low.

Spending 25K for a solar system should give you about 35K worth of electricity. We can't tell exactly, because it depends on what the electric utilities rates do - though lately they have been going up an average of 100% every 10 years (actually, faster than that recently). So TODAY, in NH, solar is already cheaper than the utilities (though I admit the Federal 30% rebate is currently responsible for this benefit). Ah...our tax dollars at work. With solar prices coming down, it should be just a few years before solar is cheaper without the rebates.

As to its viability in NH... my off grid solar home (heated by solar thermal too) is close to done...and my two next door neighbors are currently off grid solar too. After our initial investments (and sizable rebates) our fuel costs are $0 a year, which is how I like it.

If living with power produced on site, not subject to power outages, is living in the 1800's, then they had a good thing going back then. I'm not sure why brk-Int wants to mislead about solar power, but what (s/)he says is quite misleading

[sky's]

Originally Posted by Jumbie98

I have explored all the options...the best for my needs seems to be electric service . Not great positioning for solar (I'd have to remove a large number of my canopy trees) and for a septic system, I need more reliability than a generator..

cute name how are my little friends???

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Dr. Green

Amazing how misinformed some people can be.

Says the guy who has a vested interest in promoting solar panels.

I've been following/exploring off-the-grid technologies for well over a decade now. I'm pretty well informed on the current state of solar panels.

They're not a viable or practical option for most home owners in New England, unless you want to dramatically alter your power consumption lifestyle (including altering your appliances and/or purchasing special appliances intended for off-the-grid uses), *and* dedicate a fair amount of square footage to the panels themselves.

Then, you get to deal with battery maintenance, cleaning the panels (they won't produce peak output when covered in dust, or snow), and dealing with a number of other issues that come up when you're running your own power plant.

The 25-year panels are a fairly recent development, and none of them have been in use long enough to guarantee those claims will pan out.

If you get extremely lucky, and want to make maintaining your own power plant a hobby, you can break even over a 25 year period. Doesn't really get me too excited.

The *real* money in solar is in selling systems to people who think they're getting a bargain.

[Dr. Green]

I have no vested interest, other than the truth. I believe you are not that well informed about solar energy, or solar panels. If people have a good southern exposure for most of the day, solar energy is a better deal than the power company. Plus, for those who are on the grid - if NHEC customers, you can produce your solar power for yourself AND get paid by NHEC for producing it, even though they don't use any of what you produce. I can't think of a better deal than that.

[KBoater]

I once reinstalled electric to an island.
I had to get permission from landholder who had the nearest connection point.
I contacted the electric company that supplied my service and they
put me in touch with a Texas company which made submersible cable (required for safety, big price).
A local electrical contractor installed the connection and a barge lowered the heavy cable into the water.
The cable had to be an exact length since it could not be spliced.
Check with the state concerning new rules about putting things in the lake

[brk-lnt]

Originally Posted by Dr. Green

I have no vested interest, other than the truth. I believe you are not that well informed about solar energy, or solar panels. If people have a good southern exposure for most of the day, solar energy is a better deal than the power company. Plus, for those who are on the grid - if NHEC customers, you can produce your solar power for yourself AND get paid by NHEC for producing it, even though they don't use any of what you produce. I can't think of a better deal than that.

OK then, post some actual data.

What is the cost (panels, batteries, installation) for a solar power system that can provide 100% off the grid supply for an average home in Massachusetts or New Hampshire? And by this I mean a "normal" home where the consumer doesn't have to dramatically alter their lifestyle to account for appliances and electronics that consume energy when in off/standby mode.

How many watts is this system? How much runtime do you get from the battery bank (for night time, and the days where sunload is very low)? What is the realistic (not best case) maintenance plan for the system over 20 years? What will the system wattage be rated for in 5, 10, 15 and 20 years?

You call me uninformed, and I may be, however every time I research solar power as a direct replacement for grid power the costs don't add up. It always has caveats, where the system isn't reliable enough so you have to keep your utility power "just in case", which erodes the value of the system (and let's face it, if you're doing this for budget purposes there are about 18 days a year that you'll produce ANY excess power to "sell back" to the grid, and that will net you about $20). Or, you have to make adjustments to your lifestyle to reduce energy usage (which is fine, but if you do that, your cost for power from the utility company also decreases).

Right now, solar is pretty much the most expensive option for energy generation, especially in small sites. It is popular only because it is not practical for a home owner to run their own coal or nuclear plant, and because windmills present zoning problems in most places.

[tis]

I have to agree with you brk. Dr. Green was one of the people I spoke at length with and he told me it would not be practical for us to use solar. You get a little bit of electric savings and that is it.

[Grady223]

Originally Posted by Kamper

You can probably buy and fuel a gen-set for 10 years on what it would cost you to get wire service. Much quicker too since you don't have to worry about EPA studies and the additional permits or liability.

(IMO)

Getting the fuel there an issue, though. Probably want diesel if you will be running it full time. Hauling fuel cans all summer will be a drag.

Best bet is wind power, huge tax breaks and all winter you sell the power back to the grid. You'll make money on the deal!

[Jumbie98]

Thank you for the responses! I do have a few small solar panels already in use.....can't use more because the batteries can't stay out there all winter and 70lb batteries are NOT fun to lug back and forth....generators are too loud on a small island and I don't have much room for a wind turbine...I do plan on enlarging my solar for hot water, but eventually I want to live full time during the summers and nOT have to rely on a compost toilet.... I feel like I am getting the runaround from nhec....anyone else working on it now?

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Originally Posted by Jumbie98

...I do plan on enlarging my solar for hot water, but eventually I want to live full time during the summers and nOT have to rely on a compost toilet....

As an islander I have to warn anyone who will listen, don't ever buy a electric toilet, aka incinolet. That thing was a nightmare. I am hoping your upgrade from compost would never involve the huge step back to burning your poop. It's even worse than it sounds.

I always thought it was OK to let lead acid batteries freeze if they remain charged? My car thinks so.

[Jumbie98]

Thanks for the advice rattlesnake....NO BURNING POOP! I was told freezing will shorten the normal 10 year lifespan (fully charged) to 5 or 6 years....to expensive and heavy for my taste

[NoBozo]

Fully charged lead acid batterys in good condition DO NOT freeze. It's when the battery is discharged..or in poor condition that it freezes.

A battery that has actually frozen (you can actually remove a cap and see the ice inside) is Scrap, ..because the ICE distorts the plates in the battery. NB

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

As an islander I have to warn anyone who will listen, don't ever buy a electric toilet, aka incinolet. That thing was a nightmare. I am hoping your upgrade from compost would never involve the huge step back to burning your poop. It's even worse than it sounds.

I always thought it was OK to let lead acid batteries freeze if they remain charged? My car thinks so.

R-Guy;

You need to tell me more about the incinolet and why you did not like it. I wanted to buy one for my island camp for winter use when my water is off. P.M. me if you don't want to gross out the forum!

Dan

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Dan,

Note: this started as a PM but after reading it to my family, they encouraged me to post it here. I am still not sure... but if it saves a life...

I am just going to rattle off the issues. Celia is helping me with the list in no particular order.


The device requires a paper liner to be inserted into a stainless steel clam shell, sort of like putting a coffee filter in a coffee maker. Not a big deal for us regulars, but it freaked out our company a bit.


The liquid and solids go into that big paper cone. We had some guest with bladders that were capable of overflowing the cone. The result was urine running out of the unit while they were sitting there.


The concept of drying out the solids to ash actually works pretty well but the addition of all the liquid really slowed down the process. I was pretty impressed with how little ash remained from all the use.


The paper cone did not always go down into the heated pot correctly. Sometimes it would not go far enough down for the cover over the burn chamber would not close. This required you to interact with a combination of poop, liquid and paper in various forms of being on fire.


When the materials are dehydrating (boiling and burning), the vapor would pass through the unit and as it touched cooler surfaces of the unit, it would condense this brownish sticky buildup on the inside of the unit that would require periodic disassembly and cleaning. Truly disgusting. To add insult to injury, this sticky condensate was great at catching dust and ash that was also being pulled through the same air paths.


If you flush the unit while sitting, you would not have to worry about shaving anything for a long time.


One time we had a power failure while the unit was running. The coals were still burning but the fan was no longer running. It took about a month to get the smell out of the camp.


When we moved in, the exhaust stack was a straight shot out the back of the camp which hit the wall of rock behind us with the steep island. It became obvious with the 4 of us here in the summer, this was not going to work from an oder standpoint.


We raised the stack to a height of about 10 feet. It was not good enough to satisfy the smell factor of certain contributions.

We lengthened the burn time to insure that it was burning completely. Otherwise you end up with a build up each time. This helped the amount of clean outs we had to do.


Eventually, you have to take the burn pot out and scrape the ash and build up out of it. The constant heating of the stainless pot with liquids caused it to corrode. This made the ease of cleaning pretty tough.


The fan is pretty noisy and runs a long time for each cycle. I think we were doing a 2 hour cycle. Lots of rattling with the constant vibrating from the fan.


Raised the stack another 10 feet. This helped but it was sometimes bad enough we had to leave the deck on the other side of the house depending on the wind direction. Its a tough smell. And everyone knows what it is. I found myself trying to time my bathroom activities to when the family was leaving the house for a while.


The 20 foot stack was taken down and put up each season as I was not sure how it would survive the winter.

I think that's about it.

The smell. It is too easy a target. It's not good. And the little pellets they sell to mask the smell are useless.


We changed out to a plumbed in over sized composting unit and love it. Not perfect but compared to the incinolet, it is great.


Let me know if I missed anything.


Paul

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Rattlesnake Guy

Dan,

Note: this started as a PM but after reading it to my family, they encouraged me to post it here. I am still not sure... but if it saves a life...

I am just going to rattle off the issues. Celia is helping me with the list in no particular order.


The device requires a paper liner to be inserted into a stainless steel clam shell, sort of like putting a coffee filter in a coffee maker. Not a big deal for us regulars, but it freaked out our company a bit.


The liquid and solids go into that big paper cone. We had some guest with bladders that were capable of overflowing the cone. The result was urine running out of the unit while they were sitting there.


The concept of drying out the solids to ash actually works pretty well but the addition of all the liquid really slowed down the process. I was pretty impressed with how little ash remained from all the use.


The paper cone did not always go down into the heated pot correctly. Sometimes it would not go far enough down for the cover over the burn chamber would not close. This required you to interact with a combination of poop, liquid and paper in various forms of being on fire.


When the materials are dehydrating (boiling and burning), the vapor would pass through the unit and as it touched cooler surfaces of the unit, it would condense this brownish sticky buildup on the inside of the unit that would require periodic disassembly and cleaning. Truly disgusting. To add insult to injury, this sticky condensate was great at catching dust and ash that was also being pulled through the same air paths.


If you flush the unit while sitting, you would not have to worry about shaving anything for a long time.


One time we had a power failure while the unit was running. The coals were still burning but the fan was no longer running. It took about a month to get the smell out of the camp.


When we moved in, the exhaust stack was a straight shot out the back of the camp which hit the wall of rock behind us with the steep island. It became obvious with the 4 of us here in the summer, this was not going to work from an oder standpoint.


We raised the stack to a height of about 10 feet. It was not good enough to satisfy the smell factor of certain contributions.

We lengthened the burn time to insure that it was burning completely. Otherwise you end up with a build up each time. This helped the amount of clean outs we had to do.


Eventually, you have to take the burn pot out and scrape the ash and build up out of it. The constant heating of the stainless pot with liquids caused it to corrode. This made the ease of cleaning pretty tough.


The fan is pretty noisy and runs a long time for each cycle. I think we were doing a 2 hour cycle. Lots of rattling with the constant vibrating from the fan.


Raised the stack another 10 feet. This helped but it was sometimes bad enough we had to leave the deck on the other side of the house depending on the wind direction. Its a tough smell. And everyone knows what it is. I found myself trying to time my bathroom activities to when the family was leaving the house for a while.


The 20 foot stack was taken down and put up each season as I was not sure how it would survive the winter.

I think that's about it.

The smell. It is too easy a target. It's not good. And the little pellets they sell to mask the smell are useless.


We changed out to a plumbed in over sized composting unit and love it. Not perfect but compared to the incinolet, it is great.


Let me know if I missed anything.


Paul

I don't think you missed anything Paul!! You certainly gave me enough info to stay away!! Wow, you don't know how close I was to buying one of these things.

Thanks for saving me a lot of aggravation!!

Dan

[Jumbie98]

Soooooo.....NO burning poop!

[Seeker]

Who says you don't learn something new every day?

[songkrai]

I attend the NAHB International Builders Trade Show every year.
NAHB

Held at the Orange County Convention Center. Anyone who has been to Orlando may know of this convention center. One of the largest in the country.

Here I see all of the manufacturers on anything related to home construction. I have met with the representatives of many of the solar panel manufacturers. The technology has come a long way. Some of the panels presently for new construction blend in with the roof shingles and asthetically are quite nice.

Although philosophically I am all for solar panels/heat/electricity I just don't see the payback yet. If you are constructing a new home and the angle of the roof is perfectly set then maybe. And you would have to plan on spending many years in same home.

Those who have solar have themselves convinced that this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And more power to those folks.