I am anti-Ethanol all the way!

Coastal Laker · 07-22-2009, 12:31 PM

There's a lot of debate on whether or not more ethanol is a good thing.

Please make sure you are using MARINE stabilizer (the blue stuff) in everything (even your two strokes) - not the "red" stuff that we have always used in our lawnmowers when packing them in for the winter. The non-marine product will cause havock for anything with a two cycle engine since it boosts the alcohol level. Ethanol also boosts the alcohol level. So 2X the wammy. This is a recipe for disaster. Just ask anyone who's had to replace a snowmobile engine.

So yes, we were one of those affected by ethanol issues. We had to replace a snowmobile engine TWO TIMES last winter because the engine ran too lean (and not due to poor adjustment by the way). Funny how each time was right after we gassed up and of course we werer out of warranty. Can't prove it was the gas though. This happened in Maine where ethanol testing was going on at gas stations. Ethanol content ranged anywhere from 7% to 22%! Did you know that ethanol content is unregulated? I didn't believe it myself but I can't find anything that suggests otherwise. Perhaps someone can chime in on that.

We're friends with a local "toy" dealer who said he was having a record year for rebuilding snowmobile engines this past winter. Manufacturers were getting hosed by every one of their sleds that were still under warranty - because nobody could prove it's bad gas.

Our boats and cars might be ok at 15% ethanol. I don't know. They'll likely lose even more fuel economy. But so help me God if I have to replace one more sled motor @ $1200. I'm going to lose my mind. At the very least, get out of the sport.

So here's what else I've heard and have no idea if it is true:
- ethanol attracts water - which obviously is something you don't want in your gas
- gas with ethanol, if not properly treated will gum up at the bottom of your gas tanks after sitting for a period of time.
- as I already mentioned, it supposedly boosts alcohol level as well, which is bad for two-stroke motors

I completely "get it" regarding the intent to help protect the environment, but not at the cost of frying every one of our toys. They're not cheap!

Airwaves · 07-22-2009, 07:54 PM

Hopefully you saw the link I posted to the NMMA campaign to prevent an increase in the ethanol content to 15%. The public comment deadline expired on Monday.

According to NMMA there is NO marine engine designed or warrantied for 15% ethanol use.

I know in Mass the percentage of ethanol in use must be posted on each gas pump. I don't believe that is the case in NH and I don't know about Maine.

There are various anti-ethanol treatments you can use. Startron and Sta-bil are just two. Just make sure the Sta-bil is formulated for ethanol use and not the regular Sta-Bil and as Costal Laker points out, whatever you use make certain it is NON-alcohol based and yes, use it at every fill up and try to keep your fuel tank full.

MJM · 07-23-2009, 07:03 AM

Our 4-stroke, runs-like-new 25hp Mercury outboard was running erratically until I realized "the gas that's been sitting all Winter has Ethanol!". Switching to new gas had it running perfectly again.

~ I'm told the best solution is to use Seafoam additive.
~ I didn't even know Stabil made a marine version until I started exploring this whole Ethanol issue.

Cal · 07-23-2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airwaves

According to NMMA there is NO marine engine designed or warrantied for 15% ethanol use.

Funny you should mention. My engines were originally built in 2003 and dynoed on 89 octane MTBE blend gas and produced 647 hp. The end of the '07 season came early with a melted #4 piston due to a vacuum leak on the intake. Over the winter I rebuilt the engine to the same specs. and tried 87 octane (to save $)ethanol blend gas on the dyno. After some rejetting of the carb I wound up with 661 hp on a cheaper gas. I then matched the jetting on the other engine.
So I guess that means mine were designed for ethanol and I'm one happy camper with ethanol

Happy Gourmand · 07-23-2009, 07:38 PM

How much $$$ do you save in your twin 661HP rocket by using 87 octane?

drgrant · 07-23-2009, 08:05 PM

IMO this whole ethanol thing was poorly thought out. A good friend of mine had the carb jets clog up on his snowblower from this crap, and the thing only had gas in the tank for a few months without a start.

I'm surprised at this point marinas aren't trucking in aviation fuel or something. At least the FAA has told the EPA to go screw when it comes to that- under the justification that if an airplane falls out of the sky because of ethaol, there would be hell to pay.

-Mike

MAXUM · 07-23-2009, 09:38 PM

Thing you have to be careful of with ethanol is condensation, I've never had a problem with it, but then again I keep stabil in all my things that I am storing for a while where I cannot easily empty the gas tank. When I summerize my sleds I run them out of gas and then drain the carb float bowls so they are empty. I do it myself so I know it's done right, plus it's pretty easy to do anyways. The thing that fumes me is that ethanol is not only not very efficient when it burns, but costs a ton to produce, never mind the less than "green" aspect of it's production which ironically is mysteriously ignored. Essentially it's become a welfare program for the farmers where there is now a mandated demand for the corn necessary to produce it. Not that I'm bagging on the farmers, heck they need to make a living too, but ethanol certainly can't be the answer. It's bad stuff that's all I know and completely unnecessary.

SteveA · 07-24-2009, 06:47 AM

http://www.calt.iastate.edu/ethanol.html

I posted on this subject in another thread. Looks likely that this suit will be approved.

Jim Socolove (sp) will be running ads soon!

Seriously, it is a real problem at 10%, it will only get worse if they get to push it to 15%.

Cal · 07-24-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom Gourmand

How much $$$ do you save in your twin 661HP rocket by using 87 octane?

Well at 3000 rpm cruise speed which gets me 50 mph I average 1.3 mpg. Then figure $.20(give or take) less per gallon. I average 1000 miles per season so figure about $175. or a couple of more dinners on the water

Another way of looking at it is , put 100 gallons in the tank , which isn't hard to do and save $20. each time and that's a few Powerball tickets
I think it was definitey worth it

07-22-2009, 12:31 PM	#1
Coastal Laker Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: In the Beautiful Lakes Region of course! Posts: 130 Thanks: 1 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	I am anti-Ethanol all the way! There's a lot of debate on whether or not more ethanol is a good thing. Please make sure you are using MARINE stabilizer (the blue stuff) in everything (even your two strokes) - not the "red" stuff that we have always used in our lawnmowers when packing them in for the winter. The non-marine product will cause havock for anything with a two cycle engine since it boosts the alcohol level. Ethanol also boosts the alcohol level. So 2X the wammy. This is a recipe for disaster. Just ask anyone who's had to replace a snowmobile engine. So yes, we were one of those affected by ethanol issues. We had to replace a snowmobile engine TWO TIMES last winter because the engine ran too lean (and not due to poor adjustment by the way). Funny how each time was right after we gassed up and of course we werer out of warranty. Can't prove it was the gas though. This happened in Maine where ethanol testing was going on at gas stations. Ethanol content ranged anywhere from 7% to 22%! Did you know that ethanol content is unregulated? I didn't believe it myself but I can't find anything that suggests otherwise. Perhaps someone can chime in on that. We're friends with a local "toy" dealer who said he was having a record year for rebuilding snowmobile engines this past winter. Manufacturers were getting hosed by every one of their sleds that were still under warranty - because nobody could prove it's bad gas. Our boats and cars might be ok at 15% ethanol. I don't know. They'll likely lose even more fuel economy. But so help me God if I have to replace one more sled motor @ $1200. I'm going to lose my mind. At the very least, get out of the sport. So here's what else I've heard and have no idea if it is true: - ethanol attracts water - which obviously is something you don't want in your gas - gas with ethanol, if not properly treated will gum up at the bottom of your gas tanks after sitting for a period of time. - as I already mentioned, it supposedly boosts alcohol level as well, which is bad for two-stroke motors I completely "get it" regarding the intent to help protect the environment, but not at the cost of frying every one of our toys. They're not cheap!

07-23-2009, 07:38 PM	#5
Happy Gourmand Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Ruskin FL Posts: 1,025 Thanks: 187 Thanked 322 Times in 179 Posts	just curious How much $$$ do you save in your twin 661HP rocket by using 87 octane?

07-24-2009, 06:47 AM	#8
SteveA Deceased Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Gilford, NH Posts: 2,311 Thanks: 1,070 Thanked 2,053 Times in 496 Posts	Lawsuit- Class Action http://www.calt.iastate.edu/ethanol.html I posted on this subject in another thread. Looks likely that this suit will be approved. Jim Socolove (sp) will be running ads soon! Seriously, it is a real problem at 10%, it will only get worse if they get to push it to 15%. __________________ "Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry he'll be a mile away and barefoot!" unknown

07-22-2009, 07:54 PM	#2
Airwaves Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 1,153 Thanks: 9 Thanked 102 Times in 37 Posts	Hopefully you saw the link I posted to the NMMA campaign to prevent an increase in the ethanol content to 15%. The public comment deadline expired on Monday. According to NMMA there is NO marine engine designed or warrantied for 15% ethanol use. I know in Mass the percentage of ethanol in use must be posted on each gas pump. I don't believe that is the case in NH and I don't know about Maine. There are various anti-ethanol treatments you can use. Startron and Sta-bil are just two. Just make sure the Sta-bil is formulated for ethanol use and not the regular Sta-Bil and as Costal Laker points out, whatever you use make certain it is NON-alcohol based and yes, use it at every fill up and try to keep your fuel tank full.

07-23-2009, 07:03 AM	#3
MJM Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 262 Thanks: 0 Thanked 23 Times in 11 Posts	Our 4-stroke, runs-like-new 25hp Mercury outboard was running erratically until I realized "the gas that's been sitting all Winter has Ethanol!". Switching to new gas had it running perfectly again. ~ I'm told the best solution is to use Seafoam additive. ~ I didn't even know Stabil made a marine version until I started exploring this whole Ethanol issue.

07-23-2009, 08:05 PM	#6
drgrant Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	IMO this whole ethanol thing was poorly thought out. A good friend of mine had the carb jets clog up on his snowblower from this crap, and the thing only had gas in the tank for a few months without a start. I'm surprised at this point marinas aren't trucking in aviation fuel or something. At least the FAA has told the EPA to go screw when it comes to that- under the justification that if an airplane falls out of the sky because of ethaol, there would be hell to pay. -Mike

07-23-2009, 09:38 PM	#7
MAXUM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kuna ID Posts: 2,755 Thanks: 246 Thanked 1,942 Times in 802 Posts	Thing you have to be careful of with ethanol is condensation, I've never had a problem with it, but then again I keep stabil in all my things that I am storing for a while where I cannot easily empty the gas tank. When I summerize my sleds I run them out of gas and then drain the carb float bowls so they are empty. I do it myself so I know it's done right, plus it's pretty easy to do anyways. The thing that fumes me is that ethanol is not only not very efficient when it burns, but costs a ton to produce, never mind the less than "green" aspect of it's production which ironically is mysteriously ignored. Essentially it's become a welfare program for the farmers where there is now a mandated demand for the corn necessary to produce it. Not that I'm bagging on the farmers, heck they need to make a living too, but ethanol certainly can't be the answer. It's bad stuff that's all I know and completely unnecessary.