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Old 07-09-2021, 12:34 PM   #1
NH.Solar
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Default the most exciting solar development yet

Bi-directional car charging ...ie you can run you home with your EV when the grid is down.
The New Ford F150 Lightning is the first main stream EV to be equipped with b-directional charging, but a phone call to VW confirms that the second release of their ID4 will also be bi-directional capable. All the other EV manufacturers should soon need to follow Ford's lead. Here is basic concept of how it works;
Your new Lightning is sitting in your garage and silently re-charging through a 240 volt outlet and suddenly the grid goes out ...and nearly instantly the flow will able to reverse and your truck will begin to feed up to 9,600 watts of power back into your electrical panel and keep your home powered. The base battery for the Lightning is 115 kWh and with just a little conservation that should be enough to power most homes for 3-4 days or more! I'm not sure how the Ford system will "island" the main panel so it doesn't backfeed the grid as the linesmen are working on it, but I'm sure they have something figured out that meets NEC code.
I placed my deposit for a new Lightning about a month ago and it will be hooked into my Solaredge Energyhub system directly instead of into my main 200 amp electrical panel. The advantage of going this route is that it allows for direct array dc to EV dc charging. On a bright sunny day my 7.6 kW inverter will be able to convert a full 7,600 watts of solar power to 240 volt AC power and send it either to my main panel and export the excess back to the grid for credits, and if there is still more DC power from the array to be had it can shoot an additional 5,000 watts of dc power to my LG home backup battery and/or the Lightning. On a bright cold sunny day I'll have the potential to harvest more than 12,000 watts from the solar array.
In addition, if it has been snowing steadily for a week and there has been zero solar gain because of covered panels ...and I have depleted the stored power in both the LG home battery and truck battery, all I need to do is pull out my old 7 kW roll around generator, plug it into the EnergyHub, and run if for 5-6 hours to recharge both the home and EV batteries to full ...and then I can head to Cannon to enjoy the fresh snow without worries. Full power all the time!
More info on all of this can be found here
Is anyone else beginning to become concerned about the effects of weather and cyber attacks on the grid? I'm certainly not a prepper, but the long outage in M'boro a few years back, the situation in Texas last winter, the gas pipeline shutdown down south this spring, and the Russian ransomware attack over the fourth have me convinced that we are heading into a new era and prolonged outages are likely to become a reality. My solar array, the EnergyHub backup system, and the coming Lightning will together put me in a place where my home energy and travel needs will be met ...even if the grid has been out for months. Good and bad, these are certainly exciting times
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Old 07-09-2021, 02:39 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by NH.Solar View Post
Bi-directional car charging ...ie you can run you home with your EV when the grid is down.
The New Ford F150 Lightning is the first main stream EV to be equipped with b-directional charging, but a phone call to VW confirms that the second release of their ID4 will also be bi-directional capable. All the other EV manufacturers should soon need to follow Ford's lead. Here is basic concept of how it works;
Your new Lightning is sitting in your garage and silently re-charging through a 240 volt outlet and suddenly the grid goes out ...and nearly instantly the flow will able to reverse and your truck will begin to feed up to 9,600 watts of power back into your electrical panel and keep your home powered. The base battery for the Lightning is 115 kWh and with just a little conservation that should be enough to power most homes for 3-4 days or more! I'm not sure how the Ford system will "island" the main panel so it doesn't backfeed the grid as the linesmen are working on it, but I'm sure they have something figured out that meets NEC code.
I placed my deposit for a new Lightning about a month ago and it will be hooked into my Solaredge Energyhub system directly instead of into my main 200 amp electrical panel. The advantage of going this route is that it allows for direct array dc to EV dc charging. On a bright sunny day my 7.6 kW inverter will be able to convert a full 7,600 watts of solar power to 240 volt AC power and send it either to my main panel and export the excess back to the grid for credits, and if there is still more DC power from the array to be had it can shoot an additional 5,000 watts of dc power to my LG home backup battery and/or the Lightning. In addition, if it has been snowing steadily for a week and there has been zero solar gain because of covered panels ...and I have depleted the stored power in both the LG Resu and truck batteries, all I need to do is pull out my old generator and run if for 5-6 hours to be able to recharge the home and EV batteries to full and then I can head to Cannon. Full power full time! More info on all of this can be found here
Is anyone else beginning to become concerned about the effects of weather and cyber attacks on the grid? I'm certainly not a prepper, but the long outage in M'boro a few years back, the situation in Texas last winter, the gas pipeline shutdown down south this spring, and the Russian ransomware attack over the fourth have me convinced that we are heading into a new era and prolonged outages are likely to become a reality. My solar array, the EnergyHub backup system, and the coming Lightning will together put me in a place where my home energy and travel needs will be met ...even if the grid has been out for months. Good and bad, these are certainly exciting times
I saw a commercial for that truck on TV today and looked it up, pretty cool!
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Old 07-09-2021, 02:43 PM   #3
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I saw a commercial for that truck on TV today and looked it up, pretty cool!
Yes! the great thing that Ford is doing is using electricity to make it better for truck drivers, not just tree huggers. The torque is huge and access to electric power is awesome
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Old 07-09-2021, 03:37 PM   #4
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I agree the truck looks pretty slick and the cost is comparable to a gas truck. The range also seems decent enough. I am considering one myself!
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Old 07-09-2021, 04:03 PM   #5
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I agree the truck looks pretty slick and the cost is comparable to a gas truck. The range also seems decent enough. I am considering one myself!
They beat Chevy to the punch but I'm sure Chevy will have one soon based off the Hummer EV.
I'm not a ford fan so I'll wait for the Chevy.
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Old 07-10-2021, 10:42 AM   #6
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Ok letís play out some scenarios.

When you lose power, is your truck so happen to be fully charged?
Maybe, maybe not.

What if you need to use the truck while itís supplying power to the house?

So letís say you want to charge your EV with your 7kw Generator. Those are typically peak ratings. It can probably sustain around 5Kw. That means it would take a solid 24 hrs to recharge 100kwh battery. And probably 25 gallons of fuel.

You now have have to store 25 gallons of fuel. And keep it rotated. Yet another chore. Propane is better, but now you need about 40 gallons for one charge. And a bigger generator because they are less efficient.

The amount of solar you get in mid winter, even on sunny days is a fraction of what you get in spring, summer and fall. Above 1/5th. Which is when you most need it for a power outage.

Solar straight to EV battery in DC is barely worth the trouble with net metering. At max, youíll save 25%. But in practice youíll be lucky to save 5%. Because you have to have good weather, excess production, plugged in at the perfect time and need an empty EV to charge. Now if you never drive any where savings go up. But the truck is an expensive battery.

Generally you want to keep an EV charged. You donít leave it empty so it can consume excess solar you MIGHT get.

Permanent batteries make sense in the right situations. Not with Net Metering.

If you want power security then get a permanent propane generator. With a large tank.

The best use of batteries is with off peak rates. Charge battery at night (off peak) and use it during peak. This will use up the life of the battery. Do you want to use up charge cycles on your shiny new truck to save 25% of electric bill? Do the math.

You have to run the numbers WITH the situation your in. If you donít know what net metering is donít spend a dime until you do.

Friend of mine just installed solar. Without net metering. Total waste of money. And she had wicked cheap electricity to begin with. Solar is not free. Neither are batteries. Nor are efficiencies of move kwh from one place to another free.

Only good thing power out of ford truck is good for is camping with your 60Ē wide screen TV.
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Old 07-10-2021, 11:11 AM   #7
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Ok letís play out some scenarios.

When you lose power, is your truck so happen to be fully charged?
Maybe, maybe not.

What if you need to use the truck while itís supplying power to the house?

So letís say you want to charge your EV with your 7kw Generator. Those are typically peak ratings. It can probably sustain around 5Kw. That means it would take a solid 24 hrs to recharge 100kwh battery. And probably 25 gallons of fuel.

You now have have to store 25 gallons of fuel. And keep it rotated. Yet another chore. Propane is better, but now you need about 40 gallons for one charge. And a bigger generator because they are less efficient.

The amount of solar you get in mid winter, even on sunny days is a fraction of what you get in spring, summer and fall. Above 1/5th. Which is when you most need it for a power outage.

Solar straight to EV battery in DC is barely worth the trouble with net metering. At max, youíll save 25%. But in practice youíll be lucky to save 5%. Because you have to have good weather, excess production, plugged in at the perfect time and need an empty EV to charge. Now if you never drive any where savings go up. But the truck is an expensive battery.

Generally you want to keep an EV charged. You donít leave it empty so it can consume excess solar you MIGHT get.

Permanent batteries make sense in the right situations. Not with Net Metering.

If you want power security then get a permanent propane generator. With a large tank.

The best use of batteries is with off peak rates. Charge battery at night (off peak) and use it during peak. This will use up the life of the battery. Do you want to use up charge cycles on your shiny new truck to save 25% of electric bill? Do the math.

You have to run the numbers WITH the situation your in. If you donít know what net metering is donít spend a dime until you do.

Friend of mine just installed solar. Without net metering. Total waste of money. And she had wicked cheap electricity to begin with. Solar is not free. Neither are batteries. Nor are efficiencies of move kwh from one place to another free.

Only good thing power out of ford truck is good for is camping with your 60Ē wide screen TV.
Ridiculous salad of argument, especially disappointing since many of your past posts indicate you know better.

Obviously, if you have a generator at home, then you're all set. But if you do not have a generator and your power goes out, you're going to be damn glad you have a Ford Lightning for whatever amount of juice might be in the battery at that moment. So let's not confuse the issue with all of a sudden your truck needs a generator.

Solar is incredibly attractive financially--yielding returns about 2X the stock market, and with virtually no risk--it is probably the best investment available to just about anyone who owns a sunny roof. Anyone who doubts this should call a local solar company--they can give you the numbers with just your address and a recent electric bill.

EVs are also attractive financially, with operating cost much lower than gas cars, and much better performance. Electricity to power a car is less than half the cost of gasoline on an apples to apples basis.

Solar and an EV together are doubly attractive financially, assuming your roof is big enough that you power both your car and your house with the Sun. But that's all gravy.

Ford's e Mustang and Lightning are both great vehicles.
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Old 07-10-2021, 04:58 PM   #8
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Ridiculous salad of argument, especially disappointing since many of your past posts indicate you know better.

Obviously, if you have a generator at home, then you're all set. But if you do not have a generator and your power goes out, you're going to be damn glad you have a Ford Lightning for whatever amount of juice might be in the battery at that moment. So let's not confuse the issue with all of a sudden your truck needs a generator.

Solar is incredibly attractive financially--yielding returns about 2X the stock market, and with virtually no risk--it is probably the best investment available to just about anyone who owns a sunny roof. Anyone who doubts this should call a local solar company--they can give you the numbers with just your address and a recent electric bill.

EVs are also attractive financially, with operating cost much lower than gas cars, and much better performance. Electricity to power a car is less than half the cost of gasoline on an apples to apples basis.

Solar and an EV together are doubly attractive financially, assuming your roof is big enough that you power both your car and your house with the Sun. But that's all gravy.

Ford's e Mustang and Lightning are both great vehicles.
My point was, he HAS a generator.

I have solar in MA. I love it. But I have absolutely no need for a battery because it is NOT viable. Period. Because I have net metering. The grid is my battery. I plan to have solar in NH too.

I also have a Tesla and a Volt and produce enough Solar to cover both cars and the house and enough credits to cover the electric bill in NH. Basically I pay zero for any fuel. This isn’t about that.

It’s the assumption a car battery can be your sole source of backup power in the event of a long power outage. Quite simply it sucks at that task.

What people don’t get is Solar works based on averages. On average, year round you can generate enough power to run your house. If you can store the excess you generate in the summer and use that excess you produced in the winter. You can’t depend on it, on some schedule.

There is no battery big enough to store summer over production for winter. Except the “virtual battery” ( called the grid with net metering).

Now you can use a battery to collect solar during the day and use it for the rest of the day when sun is gone. But often during peak (over) production you still won’t use it all. It’s only during certain parts of the year it works. Hate to clue you, batteries are wicked expensive. So you have to have huge savings to cover their cost. You won’t save that much in MA or NH because Net Metering is WAY better than a battery.

For power backup. A modest generator (~$1000) can do what the Ford truck can do. And it’s more reliable because you’d have some reserve of fuel for it (not guaranteed with an EV). The OP already has a 7kw generator. A ford truck buys him very little in term of added power security. The generator is probably his best insurance.

What if you just came home from a long trip and the battery is at 20% and you lose power. Or What if you lose power for a couple weeks (like was suggested). You are screwed. Chances of that are probably low, but it can happen.

You can’t depend on Solar. It’s usually there, but sometimes it’s not. And there is a whole lot less of it winter and much more common streaks of low output. I clean my panels in winter. Pretty stupid move actually. I probably gain $2.00 of energy for 1hr of work and risking damaging my panels. Smart people leave them alone. They can easily be covered with snow and ice for a solid month.

If you wanna go that route, for backup, go for it.

I have Solar. It’s doing great and have no regrets. But if I put that money into the stock market. I’d be in about the same shape. I’ll break even in about 6 years. That means my $30K I spent will be covered. But I end up with a Solar System now worth say $20k (because it’s 6 years older). If I put $30K in an S&P index fund that earns roughly 10.5% compounded. Then my $30K would be $50K. 2X Stock market, I don’t think so. Perhaps if your a bad investor.

Curious what EV’s you own and what you have for Solar? And how your numbers look.
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Old 07-10-2021, 08:48 PM   #9
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My point was, he HAS a generator.

I have solar in MA. I love it. But I have absolutely no need for a battery because it is NOT viable. Period. Because I have net metering. The grid is my battery. I plan to have solar in NH too.

I also have a Tesla and a Volt and produce enough Solar to cover both cars and the house and enough credits to cover the electric bill in NH. Basically I pay zero for any fuel. This isnít about that.

Itís the assumption a car battery can be your sole source of backup power in the event of a long power outage. Quite simply it sucks at that task.

What people donít get is Solar works based on averages. On average, year round you can generate enough power to run your house. If you can store the excess you generate in the summer and use that excess you produced in the winter. You canít depend on it, on some schedule.

There is no battery big enough to store summer over production for winter. Except the ďvirtual batteryĒ ( called the grid with net metering).

Now you can use a battery to collect solar during the day and use it for the rest of the day when sun is gone. But often during peak (over) production you still wonít use it all. Itís only during certain parts of the year it works. Hate to clue you, batteries are wicked expensive. So you have to have huge savings to cover their cost. You wonít save that much in MA or NH because Net Metering is WAY better than a battery.

For power backup. A modest generator (~$1000) can do what the Ford truck can do. And itís more reliable because youíd have some reserve of fuel for it (not guaranteed with an EV). The OP already has a 7kw generator. A ford truck buys him very little in term of added power security. The generator is probably his best insurance.

What if you just came home from a long trip and the battery is at 20% and you lose power. Or What if you lose power for a couple weeks (like was suggested). You are screwed. Chances of that are probably low, but it can happen.

You canít depend on Solar. Itís usually there, but sometimes itís not. And there is a whole lot less of it winter and much more common streaks of low output. I clean my panels in winter. Pretty stupid move actually. I probably gain $2.00 of energy for 1hr of work and risking damaging my panels. Smart people leave them alone. They can easily be covered with snow and ice for a solid month.

If you wanna go that route, for backup, go for it.

I have Solar. Itís doing great and have no regrets. But if I put that money into the stock market. Iíd be in about the same shape. Iíll break even in about 6 years. That means my $30K I spent will be covered. But I end up with a Solar System now worth say $20k (because itís 6 years older). If I put $30K in an S&P index fund that earns roughly 10.5% compounded. Then my $30K would be $50K. 2X Stock market, I donít think so. Perhaps if your a bad investor.

Curious what EVís you own and what you have for Solar? And how your numbers look.
I own a Tesla S and 18kWp of solar on my Mass house. Returns on my home solar are better than 15% IRR.

When we think about the return on solar compared to the stock market, it is important to keep in mind that the past ten years or so have been extraordinary for the stock market, and the stock market is much more risky than solar, which is similar to a bond in terms of risk. On a risk-adjusted basis, solar is much better than stocks. If your retirement portfolio is 60/40 stocks/bonds, you'd do really well to sell some bonds and put the money into solar on your roof.

Nobody has asserted the Lightning should be your only backup if your power is unreliable or that battery backup is a driver for either solar or EVs. But it would be a great feature for those (like me) who do not own a generator. So it's kind of weird that a Tesla driver would throw so much shade Ford's way
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Old 07-10-2021, 10:46 PM   #10
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Comparing an investment in the stock market to an investment in solar panels is full of uncertainties. No matter where I go or how old I am, I can adjust or re-balance my stock portfolio. Once I've spent $$$ on solar, it is fixed. I may or may not get that investment back when I sell the house (average 7 years?). If I buy solar, and in 2033, it looks like fuel cells are better, will I get my solar investment back?
Over the last 10 years, I could easily invest in the market and make more than I save with solar. Over the next 10 years, that may be completely reversed. Trying to compare soar to the S & P 500 isn't apples and oranges, it is spoiled fruit.
My house was laid out in 1977 with solar in mind. Lots of glass on the south, not much on the north, etc. My next move will likely be to a retirement community that was designed and built based on commercial zoning, not solar or other energy considerations, except, perhaps, lots of insulation and caulking around the windows. Still, basically an apartment building where the tenants pay the utilities and the landlord doesn't worry. If a large percent of the population lives in congregate housing of some sort, it will be awhile before all that housing starts to consider utility efficiency, solar or otherwise.
In this crazy real estate market, I haven't seen many houses advertised as "solar efficient". The market thrust is "not in NY, NJ, etc."
I'm all for solar, but keep it in perspective.
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Old 07-10-2021, 11:21 PM   #11
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I own a Tesla S and 18kWp of solar on my Mass house. Returns on my home solar are better than 15% IRR.
Over what period did you get your initial investment back?


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Old 07-11-2021, 12:44 AM   #12
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Comparing an investment in the stock market to an investment in solar panels is full of uncertainties. No matter where I go or how old I am, I can adjust or re-balance my stock portfolio. Once I've spent $$$ on solar, it is fixed. I may or may not get that investment back when I sell the house (average 7 years?). If I buy solar, and in 2033, it looks like fuel cells are better, will I get my solar investment back?
Over the last 10 years, I could easily invest in the market and make more than I save with solar. Over the next 10 years, that may be completely reversed. Trying to compare soar to the S & P 500 isn't apples and oranges, it is spoiled fruit.
My house was laid out in 1977 with solar in mind. Lots of glass on the south, not much on the north, etc. My next move will likely be to a retirement community that was designed and built based on commercial zoning, not solar or other energy considerations, except, perhaps, lots of insulation and caulking around the windows. Still, basically an apartment building where the tenants pay the utilities and the landlord doesn't worry. If a large percent of the population lives in congregate housing of some sort, it will be awhile before all that housing starts to consider utility efficiency, solar or otherwise.
In this crazy real estate market, I haven't seen many houses advertised as "solar efficient". The market thrust is "not in NY, NJ, etc."
I'm all for solar, but keep it in perspective.
Different type of solar. Your windows are used in conjunction with thermal mass (or some material with a high specific heat index) to create space heating. This would be PV for direct current production.
The fuel cell would need a fuel. Usually a hydrogen or light hydrocarbon.
So the PV array could take extra electricity to make hydrogen from distilled water. When the stored hydrogen is run through the fuel cell and oxidized it would product distilled water and electricity - basically returning the electricity from the PV like a battery with maybe less of a transfer loss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom_Energy_Server
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Old 07-11-2021, 09:30 AM   #13
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I own a Tesla S and 18kWp of solar on my Mass house. Returns on my home solar are better than 15% IRR.

When we think about the return on solar compared to the stock market, it is important to keep in mind that the past ten years or so have been extraordinary for the stock market, and the stock market is much more risky than solar, which is similar to a bond in terms of risk. On a risk-adjusted basis, solar is much better than stocks. If your retirement portfolio is 60/40 stocks/bonds, you'd do really well to sell some bonds and put the money into solar on your roof.

Nobody has asserted the Lightning should be your only backup if your power is unreliable or that battery backup is a driver for either solar or EVs. But it would be a great feature for those (like me) who do not own a generator. So it's kind of weird that a Tesla driver would throw so much shade Ford's way
Oh, I forgot to mention, the only reason my Solar has as good an ROI as it does is because of the SREC incentives. If I purchased today it would take 10 years or more to break even. You’d really have to be a poor investor to not double your money in 10 years in the stock market. I’m not saying Solar is not worth doing. I’m arguing your misleading comment that you’ll do 2x stock market by investing in solar. I did it primarily for the environment. Just as I have by investing in EV. Financially, long term you’d do better in the stock market on either.

I’ve not had much in Bonds for nearly a decade since around the 2008 melt down.

You keep saying he was not suggesting this or that. He was !!! He’s proposed the lighting truck be the solution to long term power outages. Not only does he already have a generator he proposed charging his truck with it, after he depleted the truck battery.

He is proposing it as primary long term back up solution. And a terrible idea. I think Tesla backup batteries are stupid too (for backup). But making them portable is an even worse idea.

If you have the truck, it’s charged and convenient and you don’t feel like firing up the generator because it’s only gonna be a day. Fine. Or camping. But for anything else, good luck.

His post was an Ad !!! Come see me when you get your lightning truck and I’ll set you up for power security.
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:34 AM   #14
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Comparing an investment in the stock market to an investment in solar panels is full of uncertainties. No matter where I go or how old I am, I can adjust or re-balance my stock portfolio. Once I've spent $$$ on solar, it is fixed. I may or may not get that investment back when I sell the house (average 7 years?). If I buy solar, and in 2033, it looks like fuel cells are better, will I get my solar investment back?
Over the last 10 years, I could easily invest in the market and make more than I save with solar. Over the next 10 years, that may be completely reversed. Trying to compare soar to the S & P 500 isn't apples and oranges, it is spoiled fruit.
My house was laid out in 1977 with solar in mind. Lots of glass on the south, not much on the north, etc. My next move will likely be to a retirement community that was designed and built based on commercial zoning, not solar or other energy considerations, except, perhaps, lots of insulation and caulking around the windows. Still, basically an apartment building where the tenants pay the utilities and the landlord doesn't worry. If a large percent of the population lives in congregate housing of some sort, it will be awhile before all that housing starts to consider utility efficiency, solar or otherwise.
In this crazy real estate market, I haven't seen many houses advertised as "solar efficient". The market thrust is "not in NY, NJ, etc."
I'm all for solar, but keep it in perspective.
The goal of financial analysis is to compare apples and oranges (and spoiled fruit). Stocks, bonds, gold, real estate, solar, Bitcoin....So I'm not sure what your problem is there.

The low risk solar return of >15% I posted is in Massachusetts. It takes about 6-7 years to break even. I agree that if you cannot plan that far ahead, solar may not be for you.
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Joebon View Post
Over what period did you get your initial investment back?


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My home system is 3 years old, I have recovered over 60% of my investment. 6 years is the typical break-even, you get a huge tax break in the first year which front-loads the return. All solar returns are roof-dependent. If you have real interest, a local solar provider can do a financial analysis of your home just from his computer with Google Maps, etc.
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Old 07-11-2021, 10:50 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by mswlogo View Post
Oh, I forgot to mention, the only reason my Solar has as good an ROI as it does is because of the SREC incentives. If I purchased today it would take 10 years or more to break even. Youíd really have to be a poor investor to not double your money in 10 years in the stock market. Iím not saying Solar is not worth doing. Iím arguing your misleading comment that youíll do 2x stock market by investing in solar. I did it primarily for the environment. Just as I have by investing in EV. Financially, long term youíd do better in the stock market on either.
You do not seem to understand either the stock market or solar.

The average return on the stock market is 7-8% per year. (You need to look over several decades.) As I noted before, the return on solar is often over >15%. This is 2X. But as I noted before, bonds are more similar in risk.

It is true that solar returns depend on various government incentives such as SREC, and SREC no longer exists. SREC has been replaced by SMART. In both of these programs, your local utility is paying you to generate power, at least in Mass.

Also as I posted before--people interested in solar should phone or email a local installer and ask what the numbers would be for their own home. The installer should be able to show you how your roof and various tax incentives work for your exact situation.
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Old 07-11-2021, 12:25 PM   #17
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I try to never post anything unless I feel the it might have merit as information, or add something positive to someone else's topic. If one of the postings should generate a contact, great! but I don't need the use this forum as advertising as I have more the business I can handle from direct referrals. My intent is to share my knowledge and hopefully help someone out in some way, that's all
The main point intended with this post was that the coming bi-directional EVs do seem to have great promise ,and especially when looked at as a long time outage backup solution. Both Ford's charging station and the EnergyHub will allow some daily power levelling by storing energy during the day and giving it back at night, but that use has to be considered carefully for any time a battery is cycled it gives up a bit of life. From what I understand from the limited info on the Ford station it will only pull from the truck when the grid is down, thus the truck battery life will be minimally effected. The EnergyHub system was designed for the daily storage and direct home consumption of solar power first, as a long outage home backup system second, and as an EV charging station third. The bi-directional capabilities were not in the forefront when the Solaredge engineers designed the EH. An EnergyHub system must have its own dedicated battery(s) and currently uses either a 10 kWh or 16kWh LG Li-ion battery. These are LGs answer to the Tesla Powerwall battery and they are required both to activate the systems battery management systems and to provide daily self consumption and/or backup power for the home. The EH system with the LG battery is autonomous and totally independent of the EV batteries, During normal day to day use the sun and the stored power of a 10 kWh power is all it takes to power and backup my small home, but a larger home with higher power needs might need a pair of 16 kWh batteries. Right now if the power has been out for any prolonged length of time I will need to fire up my 7 kW roll-around generator and use that to power my home and recharge the LG. It should only take about 3 hours to do this and then the generator can again be shutoff until it may again needed the next day. Just guessing on this scenario though as my longest outage to date was only a day. With the new Lightning however I shouldn't need to fire up the generator for at least 5-6 days, and then only during one of the catastrophic events listed. Hopefully I'll never need to tap into the Lightning's battery, but I find it really reassuring to know that if I ever need to, it is easily possible.
When new clients are considering solar for their homes the initial conversations are naturally mostly financially biased. The payback period to justify the net cost of a solar array generally runs somewhere between 8 to 11 years depending on the installation details and the utility rate. It's not a bad ROI but not overly impressive either, but remember that the solar array is going to be producing power far beyond the payback period. It might be more accurate to figure the ROI on the 30+ years that the array will be producing strongly rather than on the 8-11 year utility savings justification.
There is a secondary financial reasoning however that I personally value more the the ROI, the moving of an expense (your monthly utility bill) over to the purchase of an asset (the net cost of the solar array) that adds equity value to the home.
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Old 07-11-2021, 01:36 PM   #18
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I have nothing against solar, I think it's great! But the part about adding value to your home is what I question.
Me personally, I'd would shy away from buying a home with solar panels on the roof. I don't think they add anything visually appealing to a home.
I think of it like buying a house with a swimming pool, JMO.
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Old 07-11-2021, 05:50 PM   #19
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If you went 30 years, and then zeroed out the capital value of the system through depreciation, at a 7.2% S&P 500 index return, you would need to save 8 times the original cost of the system. And that would be without any further input in system maintenance, increase costs of property taxes or insurance, etc.

By comparing to a 2% return, you get that down to 1.82 times the initial investment without any extraneous costs.

Net metering lowers the cost of a residential system, so it becomes easier to get a better return on the investment.

The groups that could do well with this... retail/office businesses.
Our buildings move from a ''sleep mode'' into active starting at 6AM and go back to ''sleep'' at 8PM six days a week and half a day on Sunday. They need electricity exactly when solar would be producing.

An added benefit, EVs parked under an open carport-style structure with PV on the roof, would keep the vehicles cooler (we use a lot of AC to get the heat out of the vehicle after sitting in the sun all day), and could charge the vehicles for the 8 plus hours that they are just sitting there.

The Chinese have battery powered scooters that simply pull up to a solar charge station, and trade the ''empty'' batteries for fully charged ones... just paying for the charge much the same as trading out an empty Blue Rhino propane tank for a full one.
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