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Old 06-05-2015, 08:42 AM   #1
LIforrelaxin
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Default Is the lake any Safer then it was 10 years ago

I have purposely opened this thread in the boating issues Section of the forum. As I know the direction it is likely to head. But that is ok I think that a Thread like this may provided some interesting view points.


So let me start off with my feelings:

No the lake is not any safer.

1. Understanding and obeying of the 150' is still a concern. I still just as many people violating this rule as I did 10 years ago. While some are new people to the pass time of boating, there are many life long lake goers that have a hard time with this rule. Both from judging the distance, and also from the aspect of when it applies. Bottom line is if your within 150' feet of anything slow down to no wake

2. Understanding the Navigation Aids and how to use them. I have been on this lake boating for almost 30 years now. However every year I find people on the wrong side of markers trying to tell me that I am wrong. These people eventually either figure it out, or end up on the wrong side of the wrong marker and damage their boat. The only improvement I see here is that we now have Boat US, and Sea Tow on the lake to respond.

3. This to some degree goes with #1 but I still see the same number of boats every year, that don't give people participating in water skiing , tubing, wake boarding etc. respect. Already this year I have had someone following in my wake while my stepson was skiing. Yes my stepson was behind me 75' and they where behind him 200'... but that isn't safe had he fallen... I of course got him out of harms way... and the boat out from behind us.

4. People still go out on the lake in conditions for which there boats or PWC are not really meant to be out in.

5. People still have a me first attitude and don't understand right away positioning as it regards to Marine Navigation.

Bottom line is well there are many boaters that know the rules there are still just as many that do not... I don't believe that the boating Safety course, nor speed limits have really done anything that make the lake safer. All they have done is put more restrictions in place, or more red tape to navigate around.

If time allows this year, I hope to have a chance to get in touch with the marine patrol and see if they have any statics on incidents on Lake Winnipesaukee over the last decade.
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Old 06-05-2015, 08:56 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post

2. Understanding the Navigation Aids and how to use them. I have been on this lake boating for almost 30 years now. However every year I find people on the wrong side of markers trying to tell me that I am wrong. These people eventually either figure it out, or end up on the wrong side of the wrong marker and damage their boat. The only improvement I see here is that we now have Boat US, and Sea Tow on the lake to respond.
I love being told by others where to navigate. I'm slowly working my way around the lake. I'm starting on the Alton Bay/Wolfeboro Bay side. I can make my way to Welch but I'm still hazy in that area. Dad has been on the lake for 40 years. He still needs to look at the map occasionally. And IIRC (not sure if true or not), the colors of the buoys really hold no significance. Look at the map and follow the dotted lines.
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:04 AM   #3
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LIforrelaxin

I join you in tenure of boating the Lake & agree with many of your points above. ONE in particular stands out to me which is your point #5

For the last few Seasons I have been teaching my now 12 yr old granddaughter to drive (which ties in with another recent thread).

Being young & a novice the one thing that requires constant supervision is "spacing" judgments. Whether that be overtaking a boat, cross traffic or most common head to head.

In particular with head to head encounters, my phrase to her has always been "It's a BIG Lake" ... show them a bow (so they can clearly see which way you are heading) and pass well to the right.

I cannot tell you how many times (passing the oncoming boat on the right) fails to be a viable option ! It becomes extremely tough to train a young driver in the proper manner when in reality it is simply a matter of DEFENSIVE driving.

This has not changed since the first day I launched on the Big Lake in the early 80"s
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:06 AM   #4
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And IIRC (not sure if true or not), the colors of the buoys really hold no significance. Look at the map and follow the dotted lines.
You can't be serious ?



and besides, I think you TOTALLY missed his point. He is a 30+ year veteran, extremely confident that he is on the proper side of a Marker being told by a "newbie" that he is navigating on the incorrect side (is how I read it)

.
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:27 AM   #5
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You can't be serious ?



and besides, I think you TOTALLY missed his point. He is a 30+ year veteran, extremely confident that he is on the proper side of a Marker being told by a "newbie" that he is navigating on the incorrect side (is how I read it)

.
No, I got his point. I see it happen when I'm out with my Dad all the time. People telling him where to go, checks the map, and continues driving the direction he was.

As far as the color of the buoys go, I've always just referred to the maps.

Reading here:
http://www.duncanpressinc.com/buoys3.htm

Quote:
ALWAYS GO BETWEEN THE BLACK AND RED BUOYS .

Buoys generally (though not always) come in pairs, the black on the port (left) side going upstream and the red on the starboard (right) side. "Red Right Returning" is the mantra for lateral buoys going upstream, on the ocean and on the lakes.
On Lake Winnipesaukee, the solid buoys going upstream follow this plan. But there are also solid pairs of buoys in the middle of the lake, like "The Sixpack" and "The Graveyard."

In such cases, go between the black and the red buoys, no matter what their direction.
Solid red and solid black buoys have NO waypoints on their spars, but they are numbered on the Duncan Press navigation chart, so you can refer to each one by waypoint if necessary to the Marine Patrol Dispatch.
I kind of worded it wrong. Not that the colors have no significance, but there just seems to be too many exceptions to the buoys. The moment I get concerned, I slow my speed and refer to the map.
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:37 AM   #6
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Default Pat on the back LIforrelaxin

I have live on the lake during the 50's,60's and 70's. Maintain a watercraft or two up to the present.

The 60's and 70's were great times without all the aforementioned laws. Water skiing was at its peak and the water ski races on Winnipesaukee and Winnisquam were the favorite pastimes of the youth. Opechee had hosted many water ski exhibits and national slalom exhibits, it was a much see!

Today, not much to do and everyone is bored and cranky. The lake has also gotten crowded hence the lake rage we are witnessing. Bored property owners think the solution is to legislate the heck out of boating. I have even heard talk of changing the lake into a reservoir and ban boating altogether!

The water safety course is an important step, unfortunately it does not teach common sense. The 150' rule does make sense in most cases but is difficult to enforce. The signs 'No Wake' and 'Headway Speed' are used interchangeable and confused the heck out of seasoned boaters. The 30 mph night speed is a no brainer as any experienced skipper will approach a dark night at no more than planing speed. Glad to have this on board.

The infamous 45 does not practice reasonableness and prudency. I now see skippers using it as an excuse to go 45 when it is dangerous to do so! 45 does not bother me as I have yet to be pulled over going beyond that when it is reasonable and prudence to do so. I have been passed many times by the 'tooners when I am at speed. Perhaps the MP seems to think they can do no wrong?

The number of MP enforcement is roughly the same today as it was decades ago. The number of registered boaters have increase tremendously a decade ago but peaked out in 2007. With more laws to enforce, more boaters and as many or less officers to police the waters sounds like a means to no end!

Unfortunately the state legislature are hearing the lake is safer than it ever had been from those who like to take away our freedom. Yet if you talk to the native seasoned boaters, they will beg to differ.

I don't find the lake safer. Weekends during season is like the Wild West. I actually feel safer on the intercoastals! Sunday after 5 to Friday before noon provides a safe haven for responsible boaters as we no longer need to drive defensively. Crowd control on weekends is what we need!
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:54 AM   #7
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No, I got his point. I see it happen when I'm out with my Dad all the time. People telling him where to go, checks the map, and continues driving the direction he was.

As far as the color of the buoys go, I've always just referred to the maps.

Reading here:
http://www.duncanpressinc.com/buoys3.htm



I kind of worded it wrong. Not that the colors have no significance, but there just seems to be too many exceptions to the buoys. The moment I get concerned, I slow my speed and refer to the map.
Please refer to this document when wondering what the bouys mean...

There are 4 navigational New Hampshire specific spars:

https://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire...on-System-ATON

New Hampshire’s Spar Buoys

Vessels operating on New Hampshire waters must observe these rules when encountering spar buoys.

All Black

This buoy marks one side of a well-defined channel. Go between it and its companion “all red” spar buoy.

All Red

This buoy marks one side of a well-defined channel. Go between it and its companion “all black” spar buoy.

White with Red Top

If heading east or west, go south of this buoy. If heading north or south, go west of this buoy.

White with Black Top

If heading east or west, go north of this buoy. If heading north or south, go east of this buoy.


I keep this in mind, and have not found an instance where they have failed me. While I have a map, and reference it... I also think through my heading and positioning All marker on the lake that I have encountered make sense if I follow the above rules.
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:11 AM   #8
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Sorry for the large image:



I see two instances where you don't go between the black and "its companion “all red” spar buoy".

Its the little coves that mess me up. I've been on the lake for eight years now, but really only started navigating for the past two. So I'm no veteran at this, but so far this has been my experience.
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:14 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post
Please refer to this document when wondering what the bouys mean...

There are 4 navigational New Hampshire specific spars:

https://www.boat-ed.com/newhampshire...on-System-ATON

New Hampshire’s Spar Buoys

Vessels operating on New Hampshire waters must observe these rules when encountering spar buoys.

All Black

This buoy marks one side of a well-defined channel. Go between it and its companion “all red” spar buoy.

All Red

This buoy marks one side of a well-defined channel. Go between it and its companion “all black” spar buoy.

White with Red Top

If heading east or west, go south of this buoy. If heading north or south, go west of this buoy.

White with Black Top

If heading east or west, go north of this buoy. If heading north or south, go east of this buoy.


I keep this in mind, and have not found an instance where they have failed me. While I have a map, and reference it... I also think through my heading and positioning All marker on the lake that I have encountered make sense if I follow the above rules.

LIforrelaxin

Again I agree with you ..... this is scary (twice in the same morning.)

However, there are a few markers that would have even a seasoned operator double check the chart ...... and yes, it does matter from which direction and more specifically what ANGLE you approach them ..... the first of these that comes immediately to mind is black top FL#30

Although not paired with the black top / red top combo just NE of it (edge of Bear isl) visually as you approach it would appear that you are about to split two Black Tops (a NO NO).

The Black top just off the SW edge of Treasure is another.

BUT - your point is valid -- 99% of the time they are quite easy if you know your compass.

When in doubt -- Always use the Chart ..... 30+ years and I am not embarrassed to pull it out


.
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Old 06-05-2015, 11:19 AM   #10
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LI...

I think the Lake as a whole is a VERY safe place. That being said there is some room for improvement.

1. The 150' rule needs to be taught a little differently. Its a great rule, BUT... VERY few people can accurately judge distance on the water. People need to calm down a little! This rule needs to be looked at in spirit of why it was written... its more of a guideline. Just stay a good distance away from another boat while on plane. I don't get to worried about it unless they get within an a few boat lengths (50' or so). NH is the only state that has this rule regarding boat vs boat situation.

2. Understanding the Basics of Navigation... The Boater safety course covers it, but nobody pays attention to it. There should be an emphasis on ROW and crossing situations.... As I explained to my GF... you have red and green lights on your boat for a REASON!

3. ROW to skiers & tubers... I agree that people need to give more room, BUT the people tubing and skiing need to recognize that doing those activities in the middle of a busy area is not really a smart thing to do... Last year saw a family pulling kids on a tube... IN THE MIDDLE OF MEREDITH BAY! Ummm... hello???

4. You cant fix stupid....

5. See #1 above

6. I came around to being a big supporter of a nighttime limit. Although I still think the daytime 45 limit is absurd. I don't see the MP being Draconian about enforcement. If they do, you can expect a push for change...

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Old 06-05-2015, 01:28 PM   #11
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Couldn't help but yawn when reading this thread.
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Old 06-05-2015, 01:36 PM   #12
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Is it better?

I can't say.

Do the rules help?

Every person who follows the rules helps a little.

No society has everyone following all the rules all the time.

The MP cannot be everywhere all the time. There just isn't enough staffing.

One suggestion I will make to the MP is this:

If you stop someone for an infraction and you see another boat committing a more serious infraction, hand the first captain a rule book, tell him to behave and then go get the second boat. This assumes that boat #1 is not piloted by a drunk person.

Several times I've seen a boat stopped by the MP with othe boats blasting past 75' away. It's as if they feel imune to MP action because the MP is busy.
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Old 06-05-2015, 02:15 PM   #13
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I can't say the lake is safer than 10 years ago. However I can't say it is less safe either. About the same from my point of view. I would be interested to see MP statistics on that.

Is the lake available to the citizens that own it is a question more to the point.

Do swimmers, kayaks, canoes, sailboats, aircraft, powerboats etc. all get reasonable access to this limited public resource? Are water quality, tourism, fishing, and wildlife being protected? Are environmental laws, waterfront development and erosion under control?

For the most part I would say, Yes.

This is what the speed limit was really about. The opposition never understood that.
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Old 06-05-2015, 02:31 PM   #14
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Do swimmers, kayaks, canoes, sailboats, aircraft, powerboats etc. all get reasonable access to this limited public resource? Are water quality, tourism, fishing, and wildlife being protected? Are environmental laws, waterfront development and erosion under control?
This is what the speed limit was really about. The opposition never understood that.
I was led to believe it was all about safety for the children's camps.
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Old 06-05-2015, 02:57 PM   #15
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I was led to believe it was all about safety for the children's camps.
The ability of children's camps to safely access a crowded lake with their small craft is a personal concern of mine. During my summers as a camp director I had this problem.

Children's camps were never a central issue for speed limit supporters. They had little or nothing to do with the speed limit being enacted.

Speed limit opponents concentrated almost all their efforts on the safety issue. That is a main reason why they lost. For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource was #1.
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Old 06-05-2015, 03:24 PM   #16
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Children's camps were never a central issue for speed limit supporters. They had little or nothing to do with the speed limit being enacted.

Speed limit opponents concentrated almost all their efforts on the safety issue. That is a main reason why they lost. For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource was #1.
Interesting.I was certainly in the middle of that whole debate from the begining and never remember this "For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource was #1" having anything to do with it.
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Old 06-05-2015, 03:53 PM   #17
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Sorry for the large image:



I see two instances where you don't go between the black and "its companion “all red” spar buoy".

Its the little coves that mess me up. I've been on the lake for eight years now, but really only started navigating for the past two. So I'm no veteran at this, but so far this has been my experience.
There are no all red spars in the picture you posted. All the spars in the picture are white with black tops or white with red tops and require no companion spar.
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Old 06-05-2015, 04:08 PM   #18
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There are no all red spars in the picture you posted. All the spars in the picture are white with black tops or white with red tops and require no companion spar.
I don't like the Duncan map. Way too busy, and all the numbers are, to me, useless.

I can see how someone would mistake the markers on the map for all red and all black spar buoys.

A look at the "six pack" or "the graveyard" on Duncan's map would, I hope, give a far different look at the all red and all black spars.
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Old 06-05-2015, 10:38 PM   #19
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Interesting.I was certainly in the middle of that whole debate from the begining and never remember this "For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource was #1" having anything to do with it.
You don't remember arguments about where kayaks and canoes should operate? About increasing numbers of high performance boats? About people afraid of a growing "cowboy" atmosphere?

I do.
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Old 06-05-2015, 11:16 PM   #20
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You don't remember arguments about where kayaks and canoes should operate? About increasing numbers of high performance boats? About people afraid of a growing "cowboy" atmosphere?

I do.
The cowboys are still there despite the new laws. Proponents insist the cowboys were the performance boaters yet today we can prove they are wrong. Like I say even today the lake is like the wild west on seasonal weekends. The laws have not made the lake safer. I feel saver on Winnisquam on weekends on my kayak than I do on Winnipesaukee. Does that means Winnisquam needs more laws?
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Old 06-06-2015, 08:10 AM   #21
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The Lake is a very safe place given the size and use it gets.

We also need to be realistic- we all have friends that we enjoy being a passenger with and friends that we prefer to host on our boats! Just like on the road, one can have years of experience and still not be a great driver. Unfortunately, we share the lake with some people who don't truly understand basic navigation rules, skippers who don't know when they are stand on or give way and the responsibility each captain has. I have taught my kids to operate confidently but defensively!

Safe boating!!

Jason, that is a nice concise explanation of the buoys
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:17 AM   #22
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You don't remember arguments about where kayaks and canoes should operate? About increasing numbers of high performance boats? About people afraid of a growing "cowboy" atmosphere?
I do.
Thats "For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource"?
I guess I don't see how this speed limit has given us this "fair and equal access for canoes and kayaks" that you speak of.So I assume you think its now fine for canoes and kayaks to operate anywhere on the lake?
The debate and results don't look much different today than they did before this law was passed.I dont see how this speed limit gave fair and equal access.
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Old 06-08-2015, 11:46 AM   #23
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The NEWS has never failed me. It is printed black and white and must be read(red). SO, Black and White stay North or East, Red and White stay West or South. Channel Bouys are square, and solid colors pass between North/East South or South/West navigation rule still applies. The key to operating on the Lake is knowledge of compass direction without a compass. If in doubt SLOW DOWN. The navigational explanation given by "LIforrelaxin" is spot on.
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Old 06-08-2015, 01:17 PM   #24
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My Dad and my grandfather uses Red Hill as North on Winnipesaukee. Still true today. Just think, Red Hill=North.
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Old 06-08-2015, 01:21 PM   #25
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I find most people do know what they are doing and are respectable. That being said there are people who are just jerks too. I have no problem with people who are learning their way around the lake (we all had to do that) but people who cut right in front of my boat (with in 20ft or so) at I would guess around 50mph ( I had the right of way) really piss me off. I saw him coming and I backed off the throttle and he still passed about 20 feet in front of me. Had I got it on video I would have reported him to marine patrol.
You can't let some jerk in a Baja ruin your day though. Just hope you can catch him next time and go on with your day.
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Old 06-08-2015, 07:16 PM   #26
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Thats "For the general public, fair and equal access to a limited resource"?
I guess I don't see how this speed limit has given us this "fair and equal access for canoes and kayaks" that you speak of.So I assume you think its now fine for canoes and kayaks to operate anywhere on the lake?
The debate and results don't look much different today than they did before this law was passed.I dont see how this speed limit gave fair and equal access.
The speed limit has held in check the number of power boats, and in particular the number of performance boats. Without a speed limit their numbers would have continued to increase.

Canoes and Kayaks can operate anywhere on the lake. They always have, and always will, have full reign on the lake.

Under certain weather conditions operating small boats on certain parts of the lake may be unwise. However I would remind you Whitewater Kayaking is an Olympic Sport.

However if you are implying that Kayaks should be restricted from certain areas because they might be run over by a powerboat.. Well that idea is absurd.
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Old 06-08-2015, 08:25 PM   #27
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The go-fast boats are still here... and with the economy turning around and gas being cheaper you will see them more often. I personally only know of 1-2 people who treaded in their go-fast for cabin cruisers... they don't go fast anymore, but its yet another BIG wake on the lake!

To most people who have the $$ to own and operate the bigger go-fast boats usually own companies... and most of those companies took a hard hit with economy being in the tank. More than few lost a lot of $$ when the real estate market took a hit as well. Then add in gas prices over $5 gal for Super...

You will see more of us out there.... I for one never left! I MHO the daytime speed limit has done nothing....

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Old 06-08-2015, 08:31 PM   #28
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About the kayaks and canoes...

They are often hard to see.

A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them.

I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go.

BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from?

Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.
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Old 06-09-2015, 09:00 AM   #29
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The Lake is a very safe place given the size and use it gets.
I fully agree with this statement....... I have always been surprised that there aren't more problems, given the use of the lake during the peak season.
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Old 06-09-2015, 02:15 PM   #30
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My opinion is the lake is LESS safe during warm weather weekends and MORE safe during weekdays than it was ten years ago. This has to do with the law that was designed to remove fast boats from the lake. I believe the less educated boating public feel safer because of the law regulating speed is now in effect, so they come out in droves on the weekends. They are the "me first" crowd and have very limited knowledge of navigation including the 150' rule, who the stand-on vessel is and the operational requirements of the give-way vessel. This has made warm weather weekends a mess in the busy areas.

I have given up boating on the lake because of these "weekend warriors". I had a place near the Weirs. Too much chaos for me on weekends, so I have moved on. I never had a fast boat, just a 28' bow rider that I really loved. Anyone thinking that law helped things is in their own little dream world.

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Old 06-16-2015, 04:07 PM   #31
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About the kayaks and canoes...They are often hard to see. A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them. I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go.
BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from? Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.
I don't understand the statement "We can't see kayaks". Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull—from pontoon boats only?

As it is written elsewhere, "ApS loves to harass others about safe boating".

But the bottom line is: A boat operator should, at all times, "Keep a Proper Watch".

As for slowing down, according to the Coast Guard, "Keeping a Proper Watch" includes manned vessels that are adrift.



As for being safer, that's difficult to measure, especially as the scofflaws are still exceeding the SL. The primary place to see this would be between Rattlesnake Island and Diamond Island—heading north on sunny days.
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Old 06-17-2015, 09:20 AM   #32
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I don't understand the statement "We can't see kayaks". Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull—from pontoon boats only?
"About the kayaks and canoes...They are often hard to see." hardly equates to "we can't see kayaks".
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Old 06-17-2015, 10:14 AM   #33
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I Does that mean you can see dangers to your polished hull
I bet that for every boat with a "polished hull" that a family owns, they have 3 or more scuffed and scratched rowboats, canoes, kayaks, or sailboats (ours is a Laser)!!
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Old 06-18-2015, 02:20 PM   #34
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As for being safer, that's difficult to measure, especially as the scofflaws are still exceeding the SL. The primary place to see this would be between Rattlesnake Island and Diamond Island—heading north on sunny days.
That is a very small area, does anyone have a video of these so called scofflaws?

The other point not raised, was the Kayak hit near Rattlesnake last year due to speed? Was the captain a scofflaw? Was his boat polished?
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Old 07-14-2015, 01:53 PM   #35
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I actaully feel safer on Boston Harbor, than I do anywhere on the lake on a busy weekend. I have been boating on the lake for almost 30 years. I would say, the one BIG change is all the PWC's (not that I am against them, they are a blast). Alot of them have no regard to the rules. Granted, alot of them are in fact renters, who spend half an hour on a website to pass a quiz. Thats enough to get them the keys, and away they go!

And yes, there are always the morons on the boat. I was comming back from Center Harbor the other day. You know that section where the 4 markers are...well, there was about 4 of us steaming through. All of the sudden, there was the water's version of a break check! The idot in front of me decides "Oh, this looks like a nice narrow busy channel. What a perfect place to slow down without warning, and consult my chart!" Argh!

Later that night, about 9PM I am on my deck at BCI and I see what I think is a boat. It's steaming full bore, twords the bridge...NO running lights at all..nothing!

So, maybe as a weary 15 year old 30 years ago, I did not notice all of this stuff, but it just seems the lake is more like highway during rush hour...
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Old 07-14-2015, 02:44 PM   #36
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I'm a new boater who boats only on weekends and I haven't yet felt unsafe--I keep a keen eye out and plenty of space between others. I've mostly vote boated north of the Broads, though.

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Old 07-15-2015, 03:04 PM   #37
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And yes, there are always the morons on the boat. I was comming back from Center Harbor the other day. You know that section where the 4 markers are...well, there was about 4 of us steaming through. All of the sudden, there was the water's version of a break check! The idot in front of me decides "Oh, this looks like a nice narrow busy channel. What a perfect place to slow down without warning, and consult my chart!" Argh!
I see that a few times a year, mostly on weekends. It's annoying. I'm the guy that throttles up and overtakes people long before getting to a choke point (when I can). I know I won't be slowing them down and perhaps (assuming they don't know the correct course through said choke point) they'll assume I know where I'm going and follow me through without stopping to look at their chart I like to be part of the solution, not the problem.
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Old 07-15-2015, 03:47 PM   #38
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Things could really improve if the color the markers were added to with some of the new fluorescent colors that are on the market. The old black and reds are most difficult to see often times.

Is the lake safer....I would say no. Too much arrogance by many of the boats. People still do not respect the lake. On Sunday, we had a boater 100 ft off our property who stopped by to relieve himself. Just got wet to his waste off the rear of his boat while he performed his business, but my grandkids watched the whole thing. You are correct...cannot fix stupid. The wave wake people are destroying the shoreline by driving slow with boats overladen with water bladders as they surf 5 feet off the boats stern.....we see huge wakes in small coves. Interesting the environmental folks drive us nuts if we want to move a rock and these folks go unbridled as they disturb and reduce the shoreline. Time to have the environmentalists step forward and eliminate this nuisance.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:36 PM   #39
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Things could really improve if the color the markers were added to with some of the new fluorescent colors that are on the market. The old black and reds are most difficult to see often times.

Is the lake safer....I would say no. Too much arrogance by many of the boats. People still do not respect the lake. On Sunday, we had a boater 100 ft off our property who stopped by to relieve himself. Just got wet to his waste off the rear of his boat while he performed his business, but my grandkids watched the whole thing. You are correct...cannot fix stupid. The wave wake people are destroying the shoreline by driving slow with boats overladen with water bladders as they surf 5 feet off the boats stern.....we see huge wakes in small coves. Interesting the environmental folks drive us nuts if we want to move a rock and these folks go unbridled as they disturb and reduce the shoreline. Time to have the environmentalists step forward and eliminate this nuisance.
Oh I can agree with the wake boaters (in general). They make a massive wake, and they never seem to be far from shore. I am up in Maine this week on Long Lake, and there are quite a few. The place we are staying at has a rocky shoreline so no issue with erosion, but I could see how it would anger some shorefront property owners.
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:06 AM   #40
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Things could really improve if the color the markers were added to with some of the new fluorescent colors that are on the market. The old black and reds are most difficult to see often times.
I know it would be expensive and a problem for anyone that makes charts, but I really wish NH would adopt the standard inland lake marking system that the other states use. The red-topped/black-topped spar concept is WAY too ambiguous for truly safe boating. There's a red topped spar on a lake near my house that I know means to not use an entire channel between an island and shore when entering a cove, but anyone that did not know this would assume it is safe to pass to the west of the spar (it's not, you need to go between the island and the other shore). There's no chart for this lake, so it's not like you can consult your chart to be sure. Simply surrounding offshore hazards with a minimum of three danger buoys and putting one danger buoy outside of hazards near shore makes so much more sense to me. The solid red/solid black spars can stay (and should be expanded in use, IMO) The whole area north of Melvin Village should be marked as a channel with companion red and black spars.

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I am up in Maine this week on Long Lake.
Off topic, I know, but did you go down through the lock to Sebago? That's a fun trip. I've done it many times. It's VERY well-marked too.
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Old 07-16-2015, 08:36 AM   #41
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Off topic, I know, but did you go down through the lock to Sebago? That's a fun trip. I've done it many times. It's VERY well-marked too.
I agree, Songo River cruise. Done it many times !!

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Old 07-16-2015, 01:09 PM   #42
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I agree, Songo River cruise. Done it many times !!

Bill
It's like a few miles worth of Sally's Gut, with a swing bridge, a lock, a ice cream stop, a general store and rope swings thrown in for fun.
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Old 07-19-2015, 06:20 PM   #43
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I
Off topic, I know, but did you go down through the lock to Sebago? That's a fun trip. I've done it many times. It's VERY well-marked too.
We sure did. What a fantastic ride that is. We rented a nice big pontoon boat for the extended family. Went out to the sand bar at Sebago State Park. The channels are very well marked. I kind of liked the way Maine marks the hazards, it is very simple. Rocky areas in the middle of the lake are marked with a "hazard" marker, so we stayed way away from those. Black striped makers are for areas that have hazards (rocks, shallow areas etc) in between the marker and the shoreline.

Have never been in that area before, and I was very impressed. Sebago was a bit intimidating, as it just seems huge. I will say that with the prevailing NW wind and the orientation of Long Lake, it can sure get rough. Weds we came back from Sebago with 3-4 ft rollers. Made things interesting.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:11 AM   #44
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http://www.wmur.com/news/moultonboro...aukee/34870070

I wonder if the fishing boat had loud exhaust, would the swimmer would have known sooner that they were coming? I couldn't resist.

Should we ban fishing?
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Old 08-30-2015, 05:57 AM   #45
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Arrow The Lack of BIG Headlines Tells The Story...

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Is it better?

I can't say.

Do the rules help?

Every person who follows the rules helps a little.

No society has everyone following all the rules all the time.
When enforcement is lacking, do people "get away" with what they can?



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http://www.wmur.com/news/moultonboro...aukee/34870070

I wonder if the fishing boat had loud exhaust, would the swimmer would have known sooner that they were coming? I couldn't resist.

Should we ban fishing?
When you're swimming, you can hear even distant powerboats and, as they get closer, their oncoming approach becomes plainly obvious. But it's not the swimmer's responsibility to "Keep a Proper Watch".

(Nor, in this case, the kayaker's).

As for keeping a proper watch, I've found that at top speed—even in a sailboat—you've got your hands full just "staying on the edge". In an ocean-racer—especially one that's chine-walking—your peripheral vision diminishes to a dot dead-ahead.

Fishing boats, those once described here as "sparkly-boats", are no different, except for their top end and that the operator (and his vision) gets beat up when encountering wakes.

In the end, the clear trend to stable and versatile pontoon boats may make all the difference.
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Old 08-30-2015, 02:05 PM   #46
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sometimes personal responsibility out ways legal responsibility. I'd rather live than be right. I still have no idea what happened here so I wont comment. Do You?
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:46 AM   #47
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As for keeping a proper watch, I've found that at top speed—even in a sailboat—you've got your hands full just "staying on the edge". In an ocean-racer—especially one that's chine-walking—your peripheral vision diminishes to a dot dead-ahead.
Sorry ApS but I can't resist you have left the door wide open here, and I will walk through.....

From the sounds of this paragraph, and what it implies, I think we should be ending sailing regatta's on the lake, and also require that sail boats no long "stay on edge" when recreational sailing. If it take full mental capacity to operate a sail boat at top speed, leaving very little capacity to keep a proper lookout... then sailing at top speed should not be allowed if the lake is to remain safe.....

Also, how fast have you ever been on a boat... I have never had an issue with my peripheral version diminishing in a boat or in a car, and have operated boats to the 70-80 Mph range and cars in excess of 100mph. If anything a I am more alert and aware of what is going on around me at high speed....

Don't provide false information that isn't based in fact... While speed can cause tunnel vision there are usually other factors.... If a boat at greater the 45mph cause tunnel visions then why do we allow highway speeds of 65 and 70 MPH....
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:55 AM   #48
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"Also, how fast have you ever been on a boat... I have never had an issue with my peripheral version diminishing in a boat or in a car, and have operated boats to the 70-80 Mph range and cars in excess of 100mph. If anything a I am more alert and aware of what is going on around me at high speed...."


I think 60 MPH on a boat is more than a little different that 60 MPH in a car.
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Old 08-31-2015, 11:37 AM   #49
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Gourmand...

You are right..... at 60 MPH in a boat the distance you can see is measured in miles... not feet!


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Old 08-31-2015, 11:46 AM   #50
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"Also, how fast have you ever been on a boat... I have never had an issue with my peripheral version diminishing in a boat or in a car, and have operated boats to the 70-80 Mph range and cars in excess of 100mph. If anything a I am more alert and aware of what is going on around me at high speed...."


I think 60 MPH on a boat is more than a little different that 60 MPH in a car.
I will not disagree, in the boat the wind is in my face, and I don't have other vehicles within feet of me... In the boat, my vision is not encumbered by structural members reduce vision and create blind spots. So yes they are different...

I am way more relaxed on the water at 50-60 MPH then I am in the car with traffic immediately around me at the same speed...

With that said... speed at that rate, by itself doesn't cause tunnel vision... otherwise cars and motorcycles wouldn't be allowed to go that fast....
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Old 08-31-2015, 12:14 PM   #51
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Default .......Adios Amigo!

The lake probably used to be safer starting back about three summers ago, in 2013, when the number of MP patrol boats out on the Winnipesaukee water was reduced from maybe 6-7, down to 2-3 boats for the entire lake at any one time. The budget was cut to save money, and the MP was shifted within the Dept of Safety from a separate Marine Patrol to a Div of NH State Police, or something like that .... during the two year conservative Republican majority under the leadership of Speaker of the House, Bill O'Brien.

Probably, the biggest safety problem is drinking and driving a boat ....... boating and drinking is almost a natural go-together and always has been and always will be ..... so's driving impaired can be trouble at any speed but probably is more of a problem at faster speeds.....and with fewer patrols boats out patrolling....it can be a problem........glug.....glug......glug......bottom 's up.....and three sheets to the wind......time to put the pedal to the metal......and make some waves......adios amigo! .......and don't forget.....NH does not have an 'open container' law for boaters..... as it does for cars.
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Old 08-31-2015, 01:46 PM   #52
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...and don't forget.....NH does not have an 'open container' law for boaters..... as it does for cars.
So what.It has the same "operating under the influence" law which is what counts.
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:13 AM   #53
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So's......paddling around a kayak at the Meredith town docks area ......and wearing a brite yellow hardhat with two cup holders screwed to the hardhat with two 18-oz open cans of beer on the hardhat....is alrighty dighty ...... is this legal?

Talking about beer just got me a-thinking .......best beer buy in the area.......Heath's in Center Harbor has 18oz single cold cans of Beck's Sapphire 6%-alc ...... in the black can...... a highest quality-lowest price type-of-a-beer......for just one dollar ..... try it and you will like it! ..... a great beer at at great price .... .....made by Anheuser Busch ....way-to-go Mr. Heath! The Irving's Beer Kave in Holderness used to sell the same exact Beck's Sapphire for 2.29 each........ like glug-glug-glug on a hot and humid 90-degree day in September .... hurray for global warming ... and cold beer!
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Old 09-01-2015, 09:45 AM   #54
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So's......paddling around a kayak at the Meredith town docks area ......and wearing a brite yellow hardhat with two cup holders screwed to the hardhat with two 18-oz open cans of beer on the hardhat....is alrighty dighty ...... is this legal?

Talking about beer just got me a-thinking .......best beer buy in the area.......Heath's in Center Harbor has 18oz single cold cans of Beck's Sapphire 6%-alc ...... in the black can...... a highest quality-lowest price type-of-a-beer......for just one dollar ..... try it and you will like it! ..... a great beer at at great price .... .....made by Anheuser Busch ....way-to-go Mr. Heath! The Irving's Beer Kave in Holderness used to sell the same exact Beck's Sapphire for 2.29 each........ like glug-glug-glug on a hot and humid 90-degree day in September .... hurray for global warming ... and cold beer!
I thought you were a PBR sort of guy.
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Old 09-01-2015, 10:01 AM   #55
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I think 60 MPH on a boat is more than a little different that 60 MPH in a car.
Although the lake can take on the appearance of an Interstate, I find the comparisons unworthy of being "the science" some would exploit. On the highway, most of us are focused on the car directly ahead.

With excellent peripheral vision, it would be difficult to hit an animal on the road, yet it happens in the US at an estimated million times a day. Besides a bird, my only victim was a rabbit who hopped to the double-yellow, then committed suicide-by-hop.

I travel Interstate I-77 where a 20' Baja Outlaw landed on two southbound cars! (Southbound site pictured below). While the car drivers could "see for miles", the boat (coming from his peripheral vision) surprised them.



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From the sounds of this paragraph, and what it implies, I think we should be ending sailing regattas on the lake, and also require that sail boats no long "stay on edge" when recreational sailing. If it take full mental capacity to operate a sail boat at top speed, leaving very little capacity to keep a proper lookout... then sailing at top speed should not be allowed if the lake is to remain safe.....
The captain of L'Hydroptère saw 61-MPH before a capsize ended his run, but even L'Hydroptère would have the privileged-boat status over every Winnipesaukee speedboat. The wind is the primary reason, as a slight change of wind affects a sailing craft, as L'Hydroptère was to find out.



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I have never had an issue with my peripheral version diminishing in a boat or in a car, and have operated boats to the 70-80 Mph range and cars in excess of 100mph. If anything a I am more alert and aware of what is going on around me at high speed.
Yes, of course you are—we are all "above average".



One can expect a loss of peripheral vision with age.

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I will not disagree, in the boat the wind is in my face, and I don't have other vehicles within feet of me... In the boat, my vision is not encumbered by structural members reduce vision and create blind spots. So yes they are different... I am way more relaxed on the water at 50-60 MPH then I am in the car with traffic immediately around me at the same speed...With that said... speed at that rate, by itself doesn't cause tunnel vision... otherwise cars and motorcycles wouldn't be allowed to go that fast....
When speeding your car into the sun, how do you wear your baseball cap?



I have been 130-MPH on closed automobile racetracks, and instruct my students to "check your mirrors" because they are too focused on the next turn. (This from the passenger seat). "Tunnel Vision" is more common than you think.

In a boat, I was once becalmed between two Florida thunderstorms before the wind picked up. The following ride probably exceeded 40-MPH, which is rocketing, for an 18-foot (by 10') catamaran. The rudders couldn't turn the boat when it needed turning and eventually was stopped by contacting a large patch of cattails, where, underneath, I waited out the storm. Last winter, the buyer of that catamaran was cautioned.

My own car is capable of 149-MPH or more, but never saw a reason to reach those speeds on a public highway, nor could do so due to race tracks' many turns—even Road Atlanta's speedy downhill turn 11.

I once took a rented Porsche on the Autobahn to 130-MPH as well. There, you must see a mile ahead! A smooth ride at that speed, my passenger-wifey finally asked, "How fast are we going?" Oh yes, I was a passenger in a 1984 Porsche Turbo (a loaner to me), and hit 155 on a Kansas Interstate.

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Don't provide false information that isn't based in fact... While speed can cause tunnel vision there are usually other factors.... If a boat at greater the 45mph cause tunnel visions then why do we allow highway speeds of 65 and 70 MPH....
Because disc brakes changed the highway dynamic?



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Gourmand... You are right..... at 60 MPH in a boat the distance you can see is measured in miles... not feet!
Woodsy
The critical distance to kayaks, inflatables, SUPs, sculls, canoes and swimmers is measured in feet. One scofflaw in particular regularly enters Winter Harbor's protected waters while accelerating!

It only takes one headline to change our view of ten years of relative safety.
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Old 09-02-2015, 09:06 PM   #56
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Just a note of constructive criticism ApS, but if you would take the time to post photos or quote actual incidents that have occurred on the Lake, you would (in my humble opinion) add much more credibility to your argument. Quite frankly, a little careful research should provide you with ample examples, and it appears you definitely have the time and ability to dig a little deeper in your research in a better effort to keep it focused on local incidents.
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Old 09-13-2015, 06:22 PM   #57
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Default Almost blew me away........

......last Saturday. I've been boating on this lake for twenty-five years and, like lots of you, have seen many irresponsible and careless moves. I generally boat on weekends and have been fortunate to avoid any close calls.

Last Saturday 's weather was awesome with low winds and fairly light boat traffic......what a day for a ride! With three others on board my boat, we were heading E/SE through the North side of The Witches. I'm always extra cautious to make sure I stay to the right and in between the pins. I had just about cleared the pins and had stood up as a boat was approaching on my port side. Suddenly, I sensed motion and noise as a (roughly) 40 foot grey Formula (PC or SS) blew past me on my port side. This boat passed within ~50 feet and made me feel like I was standing still (I was doing high twenties).

Undoubtedly, this was the scariest experience I have had in twenty-five years on this lake and my 31 foot Formula offered little feeling of comfort and safety. I can't imagine the fear that would have been created for a family in a small runabout! In the hope that the two young gents on this boat might read these posts, wake up guys. Twin big blocks powering a 15,000+ pound craft can do lots of damage.

This is not a rant, but a reminder that experienced operators have to be on guard at all times. I may have been thinking that the post-Labor Day season is a bit more relaxed on the lake, but this was sure a wake-up call.
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Old 09-14-2015, 06:29 AM   #58
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Question Seeing Kayaks...?

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Originally Posted by 8gv View Post
About the kayaks and canoes...

They are often hard to see.

A bright colored vessel, PFD or flashy paddle can help boats see them
. I think that power boaters would do well to look for everything, not just other power boats. It's similar the the problem motorcyclists have with cars. The driver of the car scans for other CARS. Is there a CAR? No? Then go. BANG! OMG, where did that bike come from? Although it's the power boater's job to avoid them, the paddler will still be dead even if the power boat's captain in in prison.
"...hard to see...?"



Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).



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Old 09-14-2015, 09:30 AM   #59
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"...hard to see...?"

Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).
That picture may be representative of what the caption of the Mount will see, but that is not the issue being discussed. When you are in a boat just a couple feet over the top of the water, it is hard to see kayaks. Sun presents a challenge, and waves also present a challenge. Not to mention other boats that may be between you and the kayak.
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Old 09-14-2015, 02:07 PM   #60
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"...hard to see...?"



Here, although they are far away from the camera, a dark-green kayak stands out. (On a clear Winnipesaukee with a green tint).



So, if you don't understand the difference point of view will make, your posts don't mean much. If you do understand the difference and your just dishonest in order to make a point, then your posts mean nothing.
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Old 09-14-2015, 04:07 PM   #61
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I promised myself that I wasn't going to get baited into this thread ...................... BUT .................looks foggy as hell in that photo ...... wonder how long you waited for the fog to lift off them to grab this shot !


and that's a telephoto lense --- let's take a peak at say 500- 1,000 yds

.
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Old 09-15-2015, 08:08 PM   #62
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Wink Piqued Yet?

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I promised myself that I wasn't going to get baited into this thread ...................... BUT .................looks foggy as hell in that photo ...... wonder how long you waited for the fog to lift off them to grab this shot !
As anyone can see by the clearness of the opposite shoreline, the weather was not foggy at all.

Overcast, yes.

Polaroid​® sunglasses would give more contrast, and would have helped to bring out the colors in the same group of kayaks.



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...and that's a telephoto lense --- let's take a peak at say 500- 1,000 yds.
'Best I could do is a peak five miles away.



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Old 09-16-2015, 09:17 AM   #63
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Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.
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Old 09-16-2015, 04:38 PM   #64
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Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.
Chip, why do you say that, his pictures are always so germane

Just because it was taken from his deck which is obviously higher than the mast on his sailboat?
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Old 09-17-2015, 06:08 AM   #65
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Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.
Who's having difficulty seeing kayaks or other boats—like Jet-Skis? Should display red flags, or be painted orange?



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Old 09-17-2015, 06:23 AM   #66
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Question 'Could Slow Down, Y'know...

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Again, that picture does not paint the picture from the perspective of someone operating a boat.
Well, this photograph does show a boater's perspective—and this single-seater boat doesn't use paddles.

Should it be painted orange, or fly a large red flag so it's "visible"?



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Old 09-17-2015, 08:14 AM   #67
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Well, this photograph does show a boater's perspective—and this single-seater boat doesn't use paddles.

Should it be painted orange, or fly a large red flag so it's "visible"?



Yes, no and maybe.

Yes the picture shows the correct perspective.
No, it should not be painted orange. But a reflective color would make it easier to see.
Maybe a flag of some sort should be required for kayaks and canoes, but I am not sold on that idea.

I do think that kayakers, canoers, and operators of other small craft that are difficult to see should take some personal responsibility to protect themselves.

I also would like to ask you why you are so opposed to the thought that some water craft are difficult to see in certain conditions?
Honest question. You have mentioned before that you keep a CD on your sailboat to reflect the sun in boaters eyes so they can see you. To me, that means that you feel that your vessel is difficult to see.
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Old 09-18-2015, 07:30 AM   #68
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Question Whose Responsibility, Anyway?

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Yes, no and maybe.

Yes the picture shows the correct perspective.
No, it should not be painted orange. But a reflective color would make it easier to see.
The photo showed several kayak colors, all nearly equal in visibility—especially when viewed through Polaroids​®—with a baseball cap "worn frontwards". A flash from a CD could remind them of a poor, but common, practices—plus life-saving "eye equipment" against the glare of the sunny day.

Why is it that the NHMP boats are grey in color—and why are the fastest of Lake Winnipesaukee's 40-foot speedboats painted orange?

Yes, there are times when even large boats are disguised:



Is the captain going too fast for these conditions?

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I also would like to ask you why you are so opposed to the thought that some water craft are difficult to see in certain conditions?
Honest question. You have mentioned before that you keep a CD on your sailboat to reflect the sun in boaters eyes so they can see you. To me, that means that you feel that your vessel is difficult to see.
​​•​ ​With 75 square feet of sail—including the colors neon-yellow and neon-orange—you'd think that I would be easy to see.

​​•​ ​I now use an equally effective "mini-CD", and only go out when it's sunny. Most boaters in my locale have now been "trained", and I usually get a knowing acknowledgement, whether or not I "advise" them by "solar-CD".

Latest: "Nice new sail".



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I do think that kayakers, canoers, and operators of other small craft that are difficult to see should take some personal responsibility to protect themselves.
Would you have a problem seeing a SUP which has freeboard of four inches? SUP operators are, after all, the "pedestrians of the waters". (Who don't step out from behind vans).



​​•​ ​Canoes average about 15-feet long. A 150' rule "visual" would include 10 canoes in a straight line. That's actually a greater distance than you (and I) think offhand.

​​•​ ​Kayaks, if anything, have gotten smaller, with the roto-molded craft gaining rapidly in numbers. It's incumbent on the faster boaters who share these waters to slow down to keep a "proper" watch.

​​•​ ​Member DaveR said it best with, "When on an apparent collision course, it only takes a turn of a few degrees to pass behind the other craft."

This is especially valuable to a sailboat, which benefits from the "push" of a wake from behind; otherwise, it can stop them dead in the water—or soak everyone on board.

​​•​ ​I wrote here 11 years ago, that boats tend to be distracted towards my sailboat, even though we may be the only two boats out on The Broads. My sail does not have "Free Beer" posted on it!

​​The following is an example of distraction—a 30-second favorite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...ZDIwaRWCl0#t=3

​​​Although not the shortest video out there among Winni boaters:

.
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Old 09-20-2015, 08:38 PM   #69
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.
You know, it is pretty clear to me that we don't agree on this, which is fine. I have no intention of clogging this forum with images or pictures of boats, canoes, kayaks, or pets on stand up paddle boards similar to what you may have found on the internet.

The fact of the matter is, and you can't disagree with this, is that certain watercraft, or objects on the water, in certain conditions, are difficult to see. No matter the speed you are traveling, sometimes things are hard to see.

If you disagree with that, then well I don't know what to say.
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Old 09-20-2015, 08:57 PM   #70
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APS, you're beginning to post like FLL!

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Old 09-21-2015, 03:16 PM   #71
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It looks like somebody might have "retouched" the photos.....

I stand corrected... it appears the pictures were "cropped"! I was kind of able to mimic the result myself. I just couldn't get how you could have a reflection on a foggy day!


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Old 09-22-2015, 10:26 AM   #72
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Soon as the cat's away, the mice shall play!

This past weekend, September 19-20, it certainly looked like the number of Marine Patrol boats out on patrol had been reduced from past weekends ..... and there were a few performance boats out there who looked to be going faster than the 45-mph limit. Something that didn't happen much with the normal number of patrols.
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:01 PM   #73
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Soon as the cat's away, the mice shall play!

This past weekend, September 19-20, it certainly looked like the number of Marine Patrol boats out on patrol had been reduced from past weekends ..... and there were a few performance boats out there who looked to be going faster than the 45-mph limit. Something that didn't happen much with the normal number of patrols.
Or are you just noticing them more due to an overall decrease in lake traffic?

Lets face it, the # of active patrols in general has decreased over the last few years.
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:58 PM   #74
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Soon as the cat's away, the mice shall play!

This past weekend, September 19-20, it certainly looked like the number of Marine Patrol boats out on patrol had been reduced from past weekends ..... and there were a few performance boats out there who looked to be going faster than the 45-mph limit. Something that didn't happen much with the normal number of patrols.
There were 2 RIBS in Wolfeboro all day Saturday
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:51 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by fatlazyless View Post
Soon as the cat's away, the mice shall play!

This past weekend, September 19-20, it certainly looked like the number of Marine Patrol boats out on patrol had been reduced from past weekends ..... and there were a few performance boats out there who looked to be going faster than the 45-mph limit. Something that didn't happen much with the normal number of patrols.

So, lets call in SWAT!
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Old 09-23-2015, 07:00 AM   #76
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Arrow Safer, But That Can Change...

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APS, you're beginning to post like FLL!
FLL and I agree that some speedboats are a mortal hazard to peaceable boaters—most especially, those speedboat "drivers" who practice scofflaw "driving".



Quote:
Originally Posted by chipj29 View Post
You know, it is pretty clear to me that we don't agree on this, which is fine. I have no intention of clogging this forum with images or pictures of boats, canoes, kayaks, or pets on stand up paddle boards similar to what you may have found on the internet. The fact of the matter is, and you can't disagree with this, is that certain watercraft, or objects on the water, in certain conditions, are difficult to see.
Starting with the five kayaks nine days ago, every photo was taken by me on this Lake. The prior Interstate photo was also mine. The SUP with the dogs was taken at a neighbor's here last month. The dogs' owners brought swim masks, and were diving below. Most of us can see the dogs, which are smaller than most boaters.

This powerboat is an occupied Jet-Ski at headway speed, which I'll propose is not as easy to see as a kayak:



BTW: How would it do at a dockside exhaust noise test, I wonder?



Quote:
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No matter the speed you are traveling, sometimes things are hard to see. If you disagree with that, then well I don't know what to say.
Speed diminishes the visual experience: it's not made better with rain, fog, darkness, "selfie-sticks", GPS, cellphones, alcohol, a boat at full-capacity, or squinting into the sun.



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Old 09-23-2015, 09:29 AM   #77
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FLL and I agree that some speedboats are a mortal hazard to peaceable boaters—most especially, those speedboat "drivers" who practice scofflaw "driving".
Mortal hazard to peaceable boaters
Speedboat "drivers" practicing scofflaw "driving"

You and I were discussing visibility of certain types of watercraft in certain conditions, and you turned it into another speed limit discussion. I am NOT taking the bait.

And with this, I am out of this discussion.
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Old 09-23-2015, 01:24 PM   #78
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FLL and I agree that some speedboats are a mortal hazard to peaceable boaters—most especially, those speedboat "drivers" who practice scofflaw "driving".



You share other commonalities as well... you two should hang out, you'll get along swimmingly!!
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Old 09-23-2015, 03:09 PM   #79
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Phantom just sits back and shakes his head ..............



just another example of a thread derailed
.
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Old 09-24-2015, 08:14 AM   #80
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Phantom just sits back and shakes his head ..............



just another example of a thread derailed
.
My apologies. I can't stand when APS posts unrelated pics etc, and end up getting sucked in to correct the misinformation.
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Old 09-25-2015, 03:41 PM   #81
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To get back to the original question, the lake is not any safer. Speed was never the issue, alcohol and stupidity were and still are.
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Old 09-27-2015, 07:15 AM   #82
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Cool The Condensed Version...

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Originally Posted by chipj29 View Post
The fact of the matter is, and you can't disagree with this, is that certain watercraft, or objects on the water, in certain conditions, are difficult to see. No matter the speed you are traveling, sometimes things are hard to see. If you disagree with that, then well I don't know what to say.
That's why the U.S. Coast Guard enforces Rule 6...

Some here would disagree with the U.S. Coast Guard regarding long-established maritime law...?



Quote:
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"...just another example of a thread derailed..."
The OP listed two "restrictions"—listed below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post
"...I don't believe that the boating Safety course, nor speed limits have really done anything that make the lake safer..."

Nothing's been derailed.

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Old 09-28-2015, 09:31 AM   #83
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That's why the U.S. Coast Guard enforces Rule 6...

Some here would disagree with the U.S. Coast Guard regarding long-established maritime law...?




During the SL debate, you and your fellow SL supporters said Rule 6 was inadequate. But now it is "well established maritime law"... you wonder why people are confused by your ramblings.
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Old 09-29-2015, 09:02 AM   #84
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During the SL debate, you and your fellow SL supporters said Rule 6 was inadequate. But now it is "well established maritime law"... you wonder why people are confused by your ramblings.
What would you expect from a group that used the tragedy of one of their own to promote their own agenda?
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Old 11-10-2015, 06:46 PM   #85
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Could be why this forum died, too one sided and specifically motivated. Any discussions involving anything they want to be speed related is sent to the issues area to help influence the opinions of its members.
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:52 PM   #86
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I am not a lake resident, but put 150-200 hrs/year on the water in 40-50 different vessels between the hudson river to lake champlain, to lake george to casco bay.

Lake Winni RESIDENTS are normal people on average and kind to deal with.

Lake Winni VISITORS are generally pretentious jerks with deep pockets and frankly are yuppy morons.

I specifically avoid the lake friday-saturday because of the transient population. These idiots are only on boats because it is a status symbol.

I hate to say it but theres nothing you can do about it. Enjoy the lake as its been for many years during non peak times (middle of week).

The days of the 'ol lake winni are gone for good.


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Old 04-05-2017, 08:57 AM   #87
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I am not a lake resident, but put 150-200 hrs/year on the water in 40-50 different vessels between the hudson river to lake champlain, to lake george to casco bay.

Lake Winni RESIDENTS are normal people on average and kind to deal with.

Lake Winni VISITORS are generally pretentious jerks with deep pockets and frankly are yuppy morons.

I specifically avoid the lake friday-saturday because of the transient population. These idiots are only on boats because it is a status symbol.

I hate to say it but theres nothing you can do about it. Enjoy the lake as its been for many years during non peak times (middle of week).

The days of the 'ol lake winni are gone for good.


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That's one heck of a first past after joining over a year ago. Welcome to the forum.

Where do you draw the line between visitors that own property and residents? You're painting a pretty broad brush all things considered.
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Old 04-05-2017, 10:17 AM   #88
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And dredging up a thread from 2015?
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:02 PM   #89
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Welcome to the Forum.
We have some great folks and some jerks, but you can't tell from that where I'm talking about. Even on this Forum, some of us act like jerks, sometimes. But it's OK because we're a sort of family and we all love the lake in our own way.
Happy Ice Out!!
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:23 AM   #90
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Question Compare Two Large Lakes...

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During the SL debate, you and your fellow SL supporters said Rule 6 was inadequate. But now it is "well established maritime law"... you wonder why people are confused by your ramblings.
Sorry you are confused, but maritime is defined at Dictionary.com as, "connected with the sea, especially in relation to seafaring commercial or military activity".



As anyone can see at the above photograph, Lake Winnipesaukee is considered "protected inland waters" by the USCG; nonetheless, rules for a proper watch, proper lighting, and keeping crew and passengers safe still apply.

Scoured long ago by glacial epochs, Lake Winnipesaukee is a highly-fractured freshwater lake, shaped into scores of mini-lakes consisting of many bays, inlets, ports, coves and harbors. The "Big" lake is further constricted by boulders, rocks, shoals, islands, and perhaps hundreds of navigational markers to delineate them. These natural- and man-made features effectively shrink the lake for boaters.

These bays, inlets, ports, coves and harbors should be sanctuaries for wildlife, nature-watching, and safe boating. BUT two "experienced" boaters—who definitely should have known better—changed all that.

Now look at Sebago Lake:



Sebago Lake is nearly empty most of the season, has no speed limit, but is spared the tragic history of Lake Winnipesaukee's alcohol-fueled boaters.

Maybe we can explore the difference?



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Old 04-06-2017, 09:02 AM   #91
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Now look at Sebago Lake:
Sebago Lake is nearly empty most of the season, has no speed limit, but is spared the tragic history of Lake Winnipesaukee's alcohol-fueled boaters.
Maybe we can explore the difference?

.
Maybe we can explore this topic without the hyperbole?
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:11 PM   #92
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Iv'e never seen more drunk people in my life as I did last time I spent a week at Sebago. And that's no hyperbole.
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:37 PM   #93
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Sorry you are confused, but maritime is defined at Dictionary.com as, "connected with the sea, especially in relation to seafaring commercial or military activity".



As anyone can see at the above photograph, Lake Winnipesaukee is considered "protected inland waters" by the USCG; nonetheless, rules for a proper watch, proper lighting, and keeping crew and passengers safe still apply.

Scoured long ago by glacial epochs, Lake Winnipesaukee is a highly-fractured freshwater lake, shaped into scores of mini-lakes consisting of many bays, inlets, ports, coves and harbors. The "Big" lake is further constricted by boulders, rocks, shoals, islands, and perhaps hundreds of navigational markers to delineate them. These natural- and man-made features effectively shrink the lake for boaters.

These bays, inlets, ports, coves and harbors should be sanctuaries for wildlife, nature-watching, and safe boating. BUT two "experienced" boaters—who definitely should have known better—changed all that.

Now look at Sebago Lake:



Sebago Lake is nearly empty most of the season, has no speed limit, but is spared the tragic history of Lake Winnipesaukee's alcohol-fueled boaters.

Maybe we can explore the difference?



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Old 04-06-2017, 04:52 PM   #94
LIforrelaxin
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Location: Long Island, not that one, the one on Winnipesaukee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApS View Post
Sorry you are confused, but maritime is defined at Dictionary.com as, "connected with the sea, especially in relation to seafaring commercial or military activity".
.
I really really hate it when people post a snipet of a definition to suit there own purpose....


adjective
1.
connected with the sea in relation to navigation, shipping, etc.
2.
of or relating to the sea:
maritime resources.
3.
bordering on the sea:
maritime provinces.
4.
living near or in the sea:
maritime plants.
5.
characteristic of a sailor; nautical:
maritime clothing.

Beacuase I can use a snipet of definition to define sea to be:

Waters of considerable extent, more or less definitely marked off by land boundaries

APS why is it that you stir the pot more then most, but yet your the good guy?

Bottom line is as it always has been you can't legislate stupid.... the more laws you enact doesn't equate to a safer community.... the lake is not any safer now then it was 12 years ago....
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:11 PM   #95
kawishiwi
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Default Ahem....

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIforrelaxin View Post
I really really hate it when people post a snipet of a definition to suit there own purpose....


adjective
1.
connected with the sea in relation to navigation, shipping, etc.
2.
of or relating to the sea:
maritime resources.
3.
bordering on the sea:
maritime provinces.
4.
living near or in the sea:
maritime plants.
5.
characteristic of a sailor; nautical:
maritime clothing.

Beacuase I can use a snipet of definition to define sea to be:

Waters of considerable extent, more or less definitely marked off by land boundaries

APS why is it that you stir the pot more then most, but yet your the good guy?

Bottom line is as it always has been you can't legislate stupid.... the more laws you enact doesn't equate to a safer community.... the lake is not any safer now then it was 12 years ago....
Wow. Burn a guy up and in the same breath make fully & completely unsubstantiated claim on the relative safety of the lake over the last dozen years? Or do I owe you an apology because you are citing one or more documentary pieces of evidence that substantiate your safety assertion? At least the poster you tookbissue with actually cited, albeit in an edited form, REAL information.





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