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Old 07-02-2018, 09:54 AM   #1
Charlie T
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Default Heating System Replacement

I'm in a situation where I need to replace my Oil boiler before the winter. I'm calling for estimates from a couple different sources but I'd like to source the collective knowledge of the forum members.

I currently have FHW by oil with 2 x 30 year old 275 gal tanks in the garage. My previous heating system company apparently had not properly cleaned the boiler for many years and there is soot totally clogging all passageways that has turned to hard concrete. There is apparently little chance of properly cleaning it without potentially damaging the cast iron core..... As I said the soot has turned as hard as concrete and would have to be chiseled out.

I have no chimney so I'm stuck with a power vent which brings its own set of problems. The SS power vent is 1 yr old

As I see it I have 3 choices.

Cheapest would be to swap out the boiler with a new one of similar quality. I"d probably need to / should swap out the tanks as well due to their age. I'm sure with the condition of the existing boiler the true efficiency was way down so a new standard boiler should be a marked improvement.

Or

I could switch over to Propane (this is the recommendation of Eastern Propane who currently supplies my oil). A new High Eff. Propane boiler would put me at 92 + % efficiency but would tie me to the Propane company. I would have to remove the oil tanks as well with this option. Do the outside units for the Mitsu heat pumps need to be placed under cover? What about the potential for them to get covered in snow with no one to uncover them with an unoccupied home


. I've getting an estimate for a Mitsubishi split Heat Pump system next week. I know this system is universally praised but how does it work on those cold winter nights at the lake? Can it be trusted to be the only heating source? The house isn't occupied for much of the winter so starting a fire if it's really cold out isn't an option.


I could keep the old boiler, clean it as well as it can be cleaned and use it for backup only if I get the Mitsubishi system, I'd probably swap out the 2 tanks for a single new one as 275 gal should be more than enough on site storage when it's only for backup.

All thoughts welcome.

Thank you

Charlie T
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:07 AM   #2
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie T View Post
I'm in a situation where I need to replace my Oil boiler before the winter. I'm calling for estimates from a couple different sources but I'd like to source the collective knowledge of the forum members.

I currently have FHW by oil with 2 x 30 year old 275 gal tanks in the garage. My previous heating system company apparently had not properly cleaned the boiler for many years and there is soot totally clogging all passageways that has turned to hard concrete. There is apparently little chance of properly cleaning it without potentially damaging the cast iron core..... As I said the soot has turned as hard as concrete and would have to be chiseled out.

I have no chimney so I'm stuck with a power vent which brings its own set of problems. The SS power vent is 1 yr old

As I see it I have 3 choices.

Cheapest would be to swap out the boiler with a new one of similar quality. I"d probably need to / should swap out the tanks as well due to their age. I'm sure with the condition of the existing boiler the true efficiency was way down so a new standard boiler should be a marked improvement.

Or

I could switch over to Propane (this is the recommendation of Eastern Propane who currently supplies my oil). A new High Eff. Propane boiler would put me at 92 + % efficiency but would tie me to the Propane company. I would have to remove the oil tanks as well with this option. Do the outside units for the Mitsu heat pumps need to be placed under cover? What about the potential for them to get covered in snow with no one to uncover them with an unoccupied home


. I've getting an estimate for a Mitsubishi split Heat Pump system next week. I know this system is universally praised but how does it work on those cold winter nights at the lake? Can it be trusted to be the only heating source? The house isn't occupied for much of the winter so starting a fire if it's really cold out isn't an option.


I could keep the old boiler, clean it as well as it can be cleaned and use it for backup only if I get the Mitsubishi system, I'd probably swap out the 2 tanks for a single new one as 275 gal should be more than enough on site storage when it's only for backup.

All thoughts welcome.

Thank you

Charlie T
Propane is expensive, even with a high efficiency boiler.

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Old 07-02-2018, 10:21 AM   #3
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Propane is expensive, even with a high efficiency boiler. I think I would go with the heat pumps and just clean your oil burner for now until you determine if the heat pumps can be your only heat source.

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Old 07-02-2018, 10:26 AM   #4
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Default Heating System Replacement

I have been in the heating business for over forty years. Partial to oil. Propane is expensive and as much as the high eff units look great they need a great deal of maintenance. Not a great warranty either. Most are for just 12 years. If you like I be glad to help you to decide. Won't cost you anything.
Not sure how we can contact each other. Any ideas? Our home is in Moultonborough. We are usually around on weekends.
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Old 07-03-2018, 05:51 AM   #5
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Default Efficiency

It's all about how efficient the home or cabin is. Best bet is to get an energy audit. The auditor will recommend what type of heating unit will best suit your building. And you will also gets some great pointers for efficiency as well!

Oil is the cheapest and oil supply is expected to run out, hopefully not in my life time. Propane is a byproduct of oil, so that leaves natural gas. Last estimate is to be about 90 years. Something to think about in the future.

Because of efficiency new gas furnaces have energy credits. About $1500 from the feds and about another $1500 from the state and mfg. The state grant usually runs out mid year. The furnace must have an energy rating. https://www.energystar.gov/

The ductless heat pumps are by far the way to go if you live year round. They can heat your home in the middle of the winter but will take a while if you left with no heat. If you only concern with temporary heat, oil FHW, or wood/pellet will be the cheapest bet. Next cheapest will be the propane heat monitors. Ductless heat pumps do have an advantage if you need cooling in the summer.

Natural gas is not readily available, however if there is a distribution line nearby, Liberty Utilities have excellent incentives to hook up. My mother in law was giving the first 100' pipe installation at no cost and $4000 incentive to convert her old oil burner to natural gas. If she needed more money they gave her a $4000 loan interest fee. Plus the energy star credit on top of this!

Three years ago I converted my 30 year old gas boiler to condensing technology. I also replace the 60 gal NG hot water heater to on-demand. I realize a 30% savings on my heat bill and a whopping 70% on my hot water heating! The $3000 energy credit offset the condensing technology expense.
Last year I installed a Mitsubishi ductless split system and replace three old window mounted ac. Electric usage in negligible, but the summer cooling was a lot more comfortably maintained. I use the heating portion as well for those cool days I don't want to turn on the gas burner. A nice touch. Well I'm retired and live up here year round, so it's the best bet!

The Breck' house is heated by separate LNG heat monitors in every room. The plumbing drains back to the basement so I don't worry about freezing.


Yes. Colorado allows LNG storage. I guess NH has a ways to go.
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:34 AM   #6
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Default Get propane

Call Noel Gagnon at Central NH Heating and Cooling in Center Barnstead. They did a great job for me in May replacing an old heater with a new unit. (603)819-5190.
You can get any propane supplier. No obligation if they don't do the installation.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:39 AM   #7
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Default Heating

I would not switch to propane. As previously mentioned, even with 92% efficiency I think its more expensive than oil. My main residence has FHW by oil and is 1900 SF compared to ski house in Bartlett at 1400 SF heated by propane. Only use the ski house on weekends in winter, kept at 55 all the time and when in the house on weekends use the pellet stove for heat. In the main residence Sunday evening through Friday morning. It cost about the same keeping propane heat at 55 in Bartlett for smaller space compared to keeping main residence at 64 for larger space and still need to buy 1 ton of pellets in addition to propane so it really is more to heat Bartlett than main residence when you add in pellets.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:39 AM   #8
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We love our Mitsubishi mini splits; they are our only source of heat in Mass, and they did fine with last year's record lows. They are WAY cheaper than oil.

Another poster mentioned maintenance--I have only had one year with the mini splits, but I've looked at them very closely and I had oil for decades. Oil was a bear with annual maintenance and the predictably annual furnace failure of one sort or another. (Coincidentally, our oil burner flooded our basement in another home just yesterday with a gasket failure.) I expect the mini splits to be much less maintenance--they are really just air conditioners working in reverse.

Good luck!
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:51 AM   #9
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I put a new oil boiler in my house in Meredith about 4 years ago and it's relatively inexpensive to keep the heat at 55 all winter. But when the temps get in the single digets as they did this wnter I need the wood stove. After this hot spell I'm thinking of adding mini splits.

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Old 07-03-2018, 10:05 AM   #10
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Interesting site for energy costs:
https://www.nh.gov/osi/energy/energy-nh/fuel-prices/


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Old 07-03-2018, 11:34 AM   #11
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Interesting site for energy costs:
https://www.nh.gov/osi/energy/energy-nh/fuel-prices/


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This is a real eye opener for mini splits. I didn't realise they were that efficient.

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Old 07-03-2018, 12:40 PM   #12
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Default Fuel buying groups make a big difference

The fuel cost table assumes certain fuel cost. But my buying group has oil at 2.70 and propane at 1.70. This makes the propane price per million BTU about $24, almost the same as oil, and only slightly higher than the heat pump. (Natural gas still beats all other choices). It all depends on the actual fuel prices available to the consumer, and I hear electric is about to go up. Now at the 'retail' price for propane for the weekend use ski lodge not using enough for the season to be in a buying plan, it is more expensive. So the debate on oil vs. propane cost is 'it depends on the details and available fuel buying groups'.
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Old 07-03-2018, 03:47 PM   #13
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The fuel cost table assumes certain fuel cost. But my buying group has oil at 2.70 and propane at 1.70. This makes the propane price per million BTU about $24, almost the same as oil, and only slightly higher than the heat pump. (Natural gas still beats all other choices). It all depends on the actual fuel prices available to the consumer, and I hear electric is about to go up. Now at the 'retail' price for propane for the weekend use ski lodge not using enough for the season to be in a buying plan, it is more expensive. So the debate on oil vs. propane cost is 'it depends on the details and available fuel buying groups'.
I agree that the calculation "depends on the actual fuel prices available to the consumer", but your post appears to muddy the water with wholesale prices and natural gas--choices that are not available
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Old 07-03-2018, 07:56 PM   #14
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The first sentence of that site says that "prices are based on state wide averages". Based on that propane is very expensive. A couple years ago oil was so low is was the cheapest fuel per btu.

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Old 07-03-2018, 08:01 PM   #15
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I agree that the calculation "depends on the actual fuel prices available to the consumer", but your post appears to muddy the water with wholesale prices and natural gas--choices that are not available
Wholesale prices? That is the price charged to us as via the buying group. There are many such groups available,including the Our Town Energy Alliance (OTEA) that is available to anybody that joins the group. Why would anybody pay the off the truck full retail when such discounts are common. Natural gas - certainly its availability is more limited, but there are areas in the Lakes region with NG. It is in the energy cost table linked to so worth mentioning. My point is that the claim that propane is more expensive than oil is not necessarily the case. Also, when I converted to propane in 2009 one consideration for me was the volatility of prices - propane seemed to be more stable than oil
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie T View Post
I'm in a situation where I need to replace my Oil boiler before the winter. I'm calling for estimates from a couple different sources but I'd like to source the collective knowledge of the forum members.

I currently have FHW by oil with 2 x 30 year old 275 gal tanks in the garage. My previous heating system company apparently had not properly cleaned the boiler for many years and there is soot totally clogging all passageways that has turned to hard concrete. There is apparently little chance of properly cleaning it without potentially damaging the cast iron core..... As I said the soot has turned as hard as concrete and would have to be chiseled out.

I have no chimney so I'm stuck with a power vent which brings its own set of problems. The SS power vent is 1 yr old

As I see it I have 3 choices.

Cheapest would be to swap out the boiler with a new one of similar quality. I"d probably need to / should swap out the tanks as well due to their age. I'm sure with the condition of the existing boiler the true efficiency was way down so a new standard boiler should be a marked improvement.

Or

I could switch over to Propane (this is the recommendation of Eastern Propane who currently supplies my oil). A new High Eff. Propane boiler would put me at 92 + % efficiency but would tie me to the Propane company. I would have to remove the oil tanks as well with this option. Do the outside units for the Mitsu heat pumps need to be placed under cover? What about the potential for them to get covered in snow with no one to uncover them with an unoccupied home


. I've getting an estimate for a Mitsubishi split Heat Pump system next week. I know this system is universally praised but how does it work on those cold winter nights at the lake? Can it be trusted to be the only heating source? The house isn't occupied for much of the winter so starting a fire if it's really cold out isn't an option.


I could keep the old boiler, clean it as well as it can be cleaned and use it for backup only if I get the Mitsubishi system, I'd probably swap out the 2 tanks for a single new one as 275 gal should be more than enough on site storage when it's only for backup.

All thoughts welcome.

Thank you

Charlie T

This might be the best time to eliminate the potential of a whole house freeze up if the system goes down. Your option would be to antifreeze the system but that produces big issues in itself. The wall hug boilers being proposed will never be 92% unless you can provide low temp(140*) to you system so it will condense and you now have baseboard that is rated for 180 degrees. Multiple Rinnai direct vent furnaces work great, while the mini split would also be an option as long as it's a hyper heat unit. These units must be raised either with a base or bracket that attaches to the side of the house that will keep the condenser above the snowline. Many people have opted for mini splits especially those that have installed solar panels... getting them free power and free heat! Keep in mind with a mini split, the evaporator fan never shuts off. It has to run to monitor the air temp. This is a perfect time to eliminate the power venter and oil in exchange for propane which does not produce an environmental hazard if a leak occurs. You certainly do have some choices and your budget will be the determining factor.
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