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Old 05-09-2017, 06:49 AM   #1
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Default Sad About News That Herbicide Will be Dumped Into the Lake

I understand that milfoil is a pain, but what about the potential long term consequences of the 2,4-D??? What about the fish? Have they done this/if so, applied this much the past? Saw the article in today's Daily Sun and I'm very concerned about the consequences. Thoughts?

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Old 05-09-2017, 09:02 AM   #2
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Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Milfoil if left unchecked will take over and choke out everything. If there was a more cost effective and equally efficient way to get rid of the stuff I'm sure it would be used. Putting divers in the water and hand pulling is a technique that has been used but I think that is more for dealing with isolated areas not really a good solution for treating a large area.

I had read at one point there was some investigation into studying or looking at the possible impacts of introducing a kind of fish that eats the stuff. Seems if that could be done without any ill affects that would be a nice solution. Of course the long term is hard to really know 100% too.
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:38 AM   #3
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Maybe it will help curtail some of the goose population...........
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:09 AM   #4
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I would like to assume that this has been studied before they would do anything like this
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:22 AM   #5
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I will not get into a "Political" debate here on the forum or offer any more comments beyond this post (on this topic)......

Chemicals being dropped into the water is a scary thought ( I get it) .... milfoil is also a nasty, fast growing, and invasive weed.

Several years back at our home, on a 160 acre lake with boating traffic, in MA the community became embroiled in a very heated controversy on how to solve our ever growing milfoil problem which included chemical treatments as one option. After almost a years debate and many friendships and neighbor relationships nearly torn apart it was finally decided (actually voted upon) to move forward with a chemical treatment plan -- actually it was a several year program with follow up "spot treatments" as required.

Seven years later.... I can assure you of the positive impact that Program did for our Lake. Are the weeds 100% eliminated -- NO .... but at this point in time there would have been coves and other areas that would be un-navigable at this point without such actions. So overall it was a HUGE "win" !

You all can now debate how my experience doesn't correlate to Winni and so forth .... but when done right, it has a positive impact.... and as I said - I get it - Chemicals in our waters is a scary thought !


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Old 05-09-2017, 10:29 AM   #6
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Treating the milfoil south of Irwin's, will that have any negative collateral damage to Lake Opechee? Because all that water they will be treating will be going through the Lakeport Dam rather quickly.
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:53 AM   #7
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Chemical/herbicide treatment of milfoil has been going on in Winnipesaukee for many years. I had a house in Moultonborough and they treat in the area almost every year. Wolfeboro as well? Probably other areas I am not aware of.

I understand the concerns but sometimes there are no "good" choices, just ones you wish you didn't have to make (herbicides) and really bad ones (milfoil destruction of parts of the lake growing more and more each year).
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Old 05-09-2017, 01:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meredith_Resident View Post
I understand that milfoil is a pain, but what about the potential long term consequences of the 2,4-D??? What about the fish? Have they done this/if so, applied this much the past? Saw the article in today's Daily Sun and I'm very concerned about the consequences. Thoughts?
Use of herbicides for milfoil control has been studied in NH and across the country. Properly applied, it has not been found to be harmful, except to milfoil. Its use has been reduced substantially over the last several years as we move to using divers to hand pull individual plants.
In any event, each infested area or water body has a log term management plan developed by DES. Any application must be approved by DES and the Department of Agriculture, with consideration by Fish & Game, and applied by a certified company. Despite a long history of safe applications, permits are not given lightly. For example a few years ago a permit was denied for a marina just north of the Laconia Water Co. intake in an abundance of caution.
There is a state committee that reviews these issues. They meet monthly, and the committee includes legislators, state agencies and members of the public.
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Old 05-09-2017, 01:38 PM   #9
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I have 2 siblings that live on a small southern Nh lake. They have been involved in the elimination of milfoil the hard way...diving and pulling the plants. Extremely time consuming and lots of hard work. Still dont have great answer as to how effective this has been.
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Old 05-09-2017, 01:45 PM   #10
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2,4-D is in so many systematic weed control products that end up in the Lake via lawn maintenance. I would like to see that curtailed before stopping its direct use on aquatic plants.

Agent Orange contained 2,4-D. I was in the lawn care business in an earlier life. Lots of nasty chemicals back then. We are getting better but still have to do better.
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:13 PM   #11
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When this is used, you cannot swim in the area for 24 hours. If you pull lake water, you cannot drink it for about a month. It could be longer. This includes water for coffee, cooking etc. You cannot shower in it for 24 hours. Scary?? I know people who wouldn't shower in it for the whole month. The towns have to arrange for an alternative water supply during the time the 2,4-D is in the water. If your well is within a certain distance from a treated area, you should not use your well. (50 feet maybe?) They say it doesn't hurt the loons, ducks or fish. But your dogs are not supposed to drink it. If you are growing vegetables, you cannot water them with it and I believe flowers also. Any other questions, class? ( I probably couldn't answer them.)
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:22 PM   #12
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They also said this was safe not that long ago....
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:39 PM   #13
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Default Milfoil Problems 1978

I remember back in the late 70's the University of New Hampshire (I believe through Gov't grant) was doing some extensive work in Alton Bay to stop the Milfoil from creeping out of Merrymeeting River and past Downing's Gas Dock. I also remember it creeping quite a ways past the town beach and toward the Bandstand. Some progress was being made and people were urged to wash their boats and trailers after and before retrieving and launching. Well the program stopped do to lack of funding. We all know how this problem weed has expanded. Chemicals in the lake? Aren't there enough being added just from landscape runoff and fertilizer? Not that any lawn fertilizer would help this along. Sorry, I don't have the answer but do recall how many years it has been an issue. How about Unity College in Maine? Would they be willing to help if they already have not. This would be right up their curriculum. Thanks for listening.
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Old 05-10-2017, 06:21 AM   #14
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Does the bass with two heads have any correlation to weed control? I thought I just got lucky and got a two for one catch.
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Old 05-10-2017, 06:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishoot308 View Post
They also said this was safe not that long ago....
I mean no disrespect but this is an unfair analogy. Over fifty years ago smoking was a known killer. Clearly, some chemical treatments are safer than others. Obviously it's a dilemma but a choice must be made and neither is optimal. Perhaps it's a matter of balance?
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:31 AM   #16
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I mean no disrespect but this is an unfair analogy. Over fifty years ago smoking was a known killer. Clearly, some chemical treatments are safer than others. Obviously it's a dilemma but a choice must be made and neither is optimal. Perhaps it's a matter of balance?
No disrespect taken and I do understand what you are saying. My point was a little tongue in cheek as many things from yesteryear that were thought to be safe or "the best choice" are now found to be extremely unsafe. Here is just a small list of what our government said was safe but was eventually pulled from the shelves due to serious side effects up to and including death!

http://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/...ourceID=005528

All one has to do is look at the TV ads by by the likes of James Sokolove and friends and look at all the lawsuits at the pharmaceutical companies and their drugs that had FDA approval just a few years ago and we now find they caused serious harm.

Why is this any different?? The local Government says its the best choice in 2017....what will they say in 2030??

I have nothing better to offer concerning the eradication of invasive weeds but that does not mean I shouldn't be concerned and simply trust all those knowledgeable government studies and highly educated people, these are the same people who approved the drugs in the link above.

Is it possible and OK for someone to remain highly skeptical without offering a better solution because that is where I am at, the solution is simply above my pay grade...I offer nothing but skepticism and doubt.

Dan
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:39 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishoot308 View Post
No disrespect taken and I do understand what you are saying. My point was a little tongue in cheek as many things from yesteryear that were thought to be safe or "the best choice" are now found to be extremely unsafe. Here is just a small list of what our government said was safe but was eventually pulled from the shelves due to serious side effects up to and including death!

http://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/...ourceID=005528

All one has to do is look at the TV ads by by the likes of James Sokolove and friends and look at all the lawsuits at the pharmaceutical companies and their drugs that had FDA approval just a few years ago and we now find they caused serious harm.

Why is this any different?? The local Government says its the best choice in 2017....what will they say in 2030??

I have nothing better to offer concerning the eradication of invasive weeds but that does not mean I shouldn't be concerned and simply trust all those knowledgeable government studies and highly educated people, these are the same people who approved the drugs in the link above.

Is it possible and OK for someone to remain highly skeptical without offering a better solution because that is where I am at, the solution is simply above my pay grade...I offer nothing but skepticism and doubt.

Dan
Well put.

The drug thalidomide comes to mind.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:24 AM   #18
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IMO I think we all as humans overthink things a bit. Sure there is alot of info out on bad consequences of things impacting lives but I think we in general know more about them now than what was was known years ago. Sometimes the benefits out way the costs. If the lake chokes up with milfoil in the shallow water bays and coves in the lake where is your property value going? Lots of decisions are made because of economics. Look at ethanol in gas. Many studies have shown that the costs to the environment are worse than when we burned regular gas without it, never mind the impact it has on engines that weren't designed to run it. Bottled water. Pretty much unregulated in terms of measuring its quality but everyone drinks it even though municipal tap water is regulated and likely better.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:26 AM   #19
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Default Milfoil

I simply went to Google and typed in "getting rid of Milfoil" brought up some interesting web sites and lots of information. Give it a look
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Old 05-10-2017, 10:52 AM   #20
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Default Dump it in the lake?

Back to the original post and headline.
2, 4-D is not just dumped into the lake. Improper concentration is ineffective. Unfortunately almost any product can be misused, so there is a huge difference between a certified, DES monitored application, and your neighbor buying something and just throwing it off the end of the dock. Yes, people do that.

The time frames, e g. don't swim for three days, are basically the time it takes for a follow up water test to get a "non-detect" reading. I don't know of any instances where water was ingested prematurely causing illness, but there is no reason not to be cautious.

For the misconceptions about Agent Orange, I asked Amy Smagula, DES Limnologist, to clarify:
"In short, Agent Orange was a product that was used as a defoliant in the Vietnam War era. The name came from the fact that the chemical mix was stored in blue barrels with an orange stripe. Agent orange was a mix of two products, 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T. In the making of the 2,4,5-T, a byproduct was formed, which was a dioxin, known to cause cancer and other disorders. That dioxin was strictly associated with 2,4,5-T, NOT 2,4-D. A lot of people don't know the history or the facts associate with Agent Orange, and thus there are a lot of misconceptions about it. Simply put, 2,4-D is not Agent Orange, it was a component of it, and it was not the problem component. 2,4,5-T was the problem component, with its dioxin byproduct, and 2,4,5-T has been banned from production and use for decades."

I have been a member of the NH Exotic Aquatic Weeds and Species Committee since 2003. There have been many controlled studies over the years on various eradication and control methods for invasives like variable milfoil. The best control is prevention, like the lake host program, "Clean, drain and dry"and strong weed watcher groups who can quickly spot new plants and mark them so trained divers can remove them before they spread.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:01 AM   #21
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https://gmoanswers.com/studies/iarc-...BtKRoCsNzw_wcB

2 interesting things in this article on 2,4-D.

1) "2,4-Dis a commonly used herbicide that is approved for use by government regulatory agencies in over 90 countries. Tweet: What is 2,4-D? 2,4-D is a common herbicide approved for use by gov't regulatory agencies in 90+ countries. Learn more http://bit.ly/1TJjiW5 2,4-D is both the world's most studied herbicide and the world's most researched chemical in history - over 4,000 studies have been conducted in the past 60 years."

2) 2,4-D IS NOT Agent Orange. The EPA calls equating 2,4-D to Agent Orange an urban myth. Agent Orange is 2,4,5-T

I checked the Weed-b-gone I just purchased and it does include 2,4-D. Makes sense as it kills broadleaf weeds but not grass.

As with most pesticides & herbicides, if used per instructions it is safe. The problem is that some people think, "if a teaspoon in a gallon of water is good then a cup in a gallon will be great."


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Old 05-10-2017, 11:35 AM   #22
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Descant and Real Big Guy thanks for the input. The more I am learning about 2,4-D the less concerned I am about negative effects. It seems to be somewhat tried and true. Why wait until after Labor Day? Treat it now before its growing season begins. I've seen this comes in a pellet form so I am guessing it will be placed rather than just dumped overboard to float and settle wherever. A diver would certainly have better control of the direction of the application. I am looking forward to more info from the experts who should know what they are doing
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:46 PM   #23
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Just a thought but, I wonder what affect it would have on Milfoil if the lake was allowed to freeze completely in the winter all the way to the shore. No use of aerators or anything. Just let it all freeze. It seems the milfoil is close to shore. The number of docks on the lake with aerators going in the winter, it just never freezes enough to block the light out. It might do the lake some good.
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Old 05-10-2017, 01:40 PM   #24
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WJT2:
You're right, timing is very important. The master plans developed for each invested water body consider this, but generally mid June and after Labor Day are the best times to apply. Remember that small areas are best handled by trained divers, or diver assisted suction harvesters (DASH). Large area application of herbicides is usually done on a grid with a mechanical spreader, kind of like the sand spreader on a snowplow.

CAVU: Milfoil grows year round as long as it gets light through the ice. No light, it goes dormant, like many other plants. I, too, wonder what long term effects aerators have on lake temperatures and therefore on wildlife of all sorts.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:39 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ishoot308 View Post
No disrespect taken and I do understand what you are saying. My point was a little tongue in cheek as many things from yesteryear that were thought to be safe or "the best choice" are now found to be extremely unsafe. Here is just a small list of what our government said was safe but was eventually pulled from the shelves due to serious side effects up to and including death!

http://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/...ourceID=005528

All one has to do is look at the TV ads by by the likes of James Sokolove and friends and look at all the lawsuits at the pharmaceutical companies and their drugs that had FDA approval just a few years ago and we now find they caused serious harm.

Why is this any different?? The local Government says its the best choice in 2017....what will they say in 2030??

I have nothing better to offer concerning the eradication of invasive weeds but that does not mean I shouldn't be concerned and simply trust all those knowledgeable government studies and highly educated people, these are the same people who approved the drugs in the link above.

Is it possible and OK for someone to remain highly skeptical without offering a better solution because that is where I am at, the solution is simply above my pay grade...I offer nothing but skepticism and doubt.

Dan
I hate Big Pharma. But that's a rant for another day ;-) hahaha

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Old 05-10-2017, 04:43 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Descant View Post
Back to the original post and headline.
2, 4-D is not just dumped into the lake. Improper concentration is ineffective. Unfortunately almost any product can be misused, so there is a huge difference between a certified, DES monitored application, and your neighbor buying something and just throwing it off the end of the dock. Yes, people do that.

The time frames, e g. don't swim for three days, are basically the time it takes for a follow up water test to get a "non-detect" reading. I don't know of any instances where water was ingested prematurely causing illness, but there is no reason not to be cautious.

For the misconceptions about Agent Orange, I asked Amy Smagula, DES Limnologist, to clarify:
"In short, Agent Orange was a product that was used as a defoliant in the Vietnam War era. The name came from the fact that the chemical mix was stored in blue barrels with an orange stripe. Agent orange was a mix of two products, 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T. In the making of the 2,4,5-T, a byproduct was formed, which was a dioxin, known to cause cancer and other disorders. That dioxin was strictly associated with 2,4,5-T, NOT 2,4-D. A lot of people don't know the history or the facts associate with Agent Orange, and thus there are a lot of misconceptions about it. Simply put, 2,4-D is not Agent Orange, it was a component of it, and it was not the problem component. 2,4,5-T was the problem component, with its dioxin byproduct, and 2,4,5-T has been banned from production and use for decades."

I have been a member of the NH Exotic Aquatic Weeds and Species Committee since 2003. There have been many controlled studies over the years on various eradication and control methods for invasives like variable milfoil. The best control is prevention, like the lake host program, "Clean, drain and dry"and strong weed watcher groups who can quickly spot new plants and mark them so trained divers can remove them before they spread.
Thank you.

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Old 05-10-2017, 05:14 PM   #27
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Default Could Something Like This Work as an Alternative?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFiU3NxddMg
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:15 PM   #28
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Depends on what you're harvesting. A cutter/harvester was used on Winni many years ago for variable milfoil., When you cut the plants off and don't go 14 inches into the silt to get the roots, the plants quickly grow back. The pieces that you break off float away, sink and re-root spreading the infestation., Other plants with different characteristics may respond differently.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:18 AM   #29
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Default Harvester

That Aquatic Plant Harvester is the type being used in Alton Bay (as I remember) back in the 70's/80's . The one in the video seems more complex but the drum on the stern that could be lowered into the water looks the same. So if this drum were designed to drop to the bottom and also have long tines to get below the bottom and break and collect the root system it may be a big help.Does anyone else remember the work being done in Alton Bay? Ok all you New England Educated engineers living on the Lake lets get going!

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Old 05-11-2017, 11:53 AM   #30
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Hmm. Im not to sure Winni would be friendly to that machine. To many rocks. That thing would fine on a shallow muddy/sandy bottom.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:09 PM   #31
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Milfoil mostly thrives on deep silt, not so much o a clean sandy bottom. We have difficulty with untrained divers, hence the requirement to get training before pulling. There is still the problem with breakage, so I think the harvester pictured may be suitable for some plants, but not milfoil. There are plants, some native, not "exotic", that can create a need for removal in large quantities.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:52 PM   #32
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I agree with Ishoot 100%, I don't want to sound like a weeny but if you aren't skeptical of just about anything, you truly aren't paying attention to history. I don't have any answers either. I've seen pictures of pontoons that have been eaten by herbicide applications That are not covered by insurance or warranty. But I don't know if it was this stuff. probably repeated use as well, Just one more caution. It sucks that this is where we're at but we are, Maybe this is the best action.
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:44 PM   #33
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I agree with Ishoot 100%, I don't want to sound like a weeny but if you aren't skeptical of just about anything, you truly aren't paying attention to history. I don't have any answers either. I've seen pictures of pontoons that have been eaten by herbicide applications That are not covered by insurance or warranty. But I don't know if it was this stuff. probably repeated use as well, Just one more caution. It sucks that this is where we're at but we are, Maybe this is the best action.
Intriguing. I'd be interested in learning more. Conditions, which herbicide, etc.
Certified, approved 2, 4-D applications are pelletized so it sinks before diluting into the water near the bottom, and then is absorbed into the plant. I can only envision limited circumstances where the application would be in water so shallow that the pontoons would be close to any concentration. Perhaps not properly applied? Or some other herbicide? "Herbicides" is a wide spectrum. Nevertheless anything we can learn is helpful.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:41 PM   #34
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I can't find the thread or the article that was attached. I believe it was cooper with a chemical compound that created electrolysis. It was also in a more stagnant area so probably no comparison to Winni, but I'd never heard anything like it before.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:22 PM   #35
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The harvester is the worst thing to use on millfoil as it will only spread it more unless every piece that is cut is collected.
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Old 05-28-2017, 08:35 AM   #36
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I think the larger issue is with the overall runoff from land surrounding the lakes and aquifers that feed the lake by folks who insist on having lush green lawns up to the lakes edge and from homeowners who strip the shoreline and wooded areas of the trees and understory vegetation that would be a natural lake filter.
More stringent cultural polices should be in force to eliminate the use of certain fertilizers, weed control, septic and soil erosion etc. and to eliminate resident geese populations as much as possible.
Humans create the environments that these invasive plants and animals thrive in. Then we react and respond with chemicals to control or to eliminate them.
I for one am in favor of the treatments because I know the results of milfoil if left untreated would be catastrophic to the lake ecosystems.

So if you are opposed to the treatment, the next time you cut your treated lawn or are ripping out the natural blueberry bushes and vegetative understory growth because you think it looks poor, think about the role you are playing in the demise of the ecosystem.
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:54 AM   #37
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I think the larger issue is with the overall runoff from land surrounding the lakes and aquifers that feed the lake by folks who insist on having lush green lawns up to the lakes edge and from homeowners who strip the shoreline and wooded areas of the trees and understory vegetation that would be a natural lake filter.
More stringent cultural polices should be in force to eliminate the use of certain fertilizers, weed control, septic and soil erosion etc. and to eliminate resident geese populations as much as possible.
Humans create the environments that these invasive plants and animals thrive in. Then we react and respond with chemicals to control or to eliminate them.
I for one am in favor of the treatments because I know the results of milfoil if left untreated would be catastrophic to the lake ecosystems.

So if you are opposed to the treatment, the next time you cut your treated lawn or are ripping out the natural blueberry bushes and vegetative understory growth because you think it looks poor, think about the role you are playing in the demise of the ecosystem.
I would love to have natural blueberry bushes!

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Old 06-01-2017, 08:46 PM   #38
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I would love to have natural blueberry bushes!
We added a whole bunch of blueberry bushes to our yard last year. We're hoping for a zero maintenance ground cover effect with a delicious dividend. They are available at Spiderweb Garden in Tuftonboro and probably many other places.
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