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Old 08-07-2015, 09:02 AM   #101
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It seems to me that the history section of the attached document in post #91 shows the original intent.

Perhaps all that is needed is that some official needs to review the original document to clarify the errors and update the law to remove the ambiguities, or I wonder if there will have to be a new hearing to correct something like this? Either way, it will be nice to clarify this and get it behind us.

This event also allowed me to study up and refresh myself on many of the applicable laws.

Things like anchoring, rafting, swimming lines, docks, and many of the other points discussed in this thread.

Something new I learned is that I didn't know is that a land owner's swim raft must have the owners name and address clearly marked on the outside of it, as well as it must have 12 sq inches reflectors on each side of it. I can't say that I've ever noticed these on a raft before, but not owning a raft myself perhaps I wasn't paying attention. I wonder if this also applies to those inflatable rafts too? I guess yes.

Bizer, thanks again for your clarity on this NRZ issue.
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Last edited by Rich; 08-07-2015 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Spelling and clarity
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:07 AM   #102
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Can someone quickly point me to NRZ/anchoring rules? There were some comments here that lead me to believe I'm not familiar enough with them.

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Old 08-07-2015, 09:44 AM   #103
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Read PART Saf-C 407 RAFTING RULES

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rule.../saf-c400.html

But lots of good info here, anchoring and most things you need to know. But I find it helps to discuss things (even if it stirs up controversy) as it helps to cement it in your mind and you may have misunderstood something at first reading it.
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:22 AM   #104
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Default Dropping anchor in front of a house

Most boaters are courteous, when they drop anchor they stay a distance away from homes on the water. Some however, will drop anchor directly in front of your house a short distance from shore not realizing that everything they say and any noise they make gets somehow magnified by the water and carried to the homeowner. This is annoying and totally unnecessary. Using common sense and the amount of open space on the water should keep this from happening. The area Rich refers to is in fact a no rafting zone. It has been for the last 15 years. Unfortunately,for some reason this was only noted on the marine maps for the first few years. Consequently boaters coming in to the western most section of Winter Harbor are not aware that it is a no rafting zone. This is another cause of tension between homeowners and boaters and usually ends with the Marine Patrol coming to notify the boaters regarding no rafting. If Bizor would correct their map to show that there is a no rafting zone from The Winnimir Condominiums west to the Tuftonboro Neck road, there would be fewer issues.
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:55 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brc View Post
Most boaters are courteous, when they drop anchor they stay a distance away from homes on the water. Some however, will drop anchor directly in front of your house a short distance from shore not realizing that everything they say and any noise they make gets somehow magnified by the water and carried to the homeowner. This is annoying and totally unnecessary. Using common sense and the amount of open space on the water should keep this from happening. The area Rich refers to is in fact a no rafting zone. It has been for the last 15 years. Unfortunately,for some reason this was only noted on the marine maps for the first few years. Consequently boaters coming in to the western most section of Winter Harbor are not aware that it is a no rafting zone. This is another cause of tension between homeowners and boaters and usually ends with the Marine Patrol coming to notify the boaters regarding no rafting. If Bizor would correct their map to show that there is a no rafting zone from The Winnimir Condominiums west to the Tuftonboro Neck road, there would be fewer issues.
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Understandably this may have been the case all along - however, is it NECESSARY? Why do we need all these regulations? Sounds like a power trip from the homeowners. [/end rant]
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Old 08-11-2015, 01:44 PM   #106
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Most boaters are courteous, when they drop anchor they stay a distance away from homes on the water. Some however, will drop anchor directly in front of your house a short distance from shore not realizing that everything they say and any noise they make gets somehow magnified by the water and carried to the homeowner. This is annoying and totally unnecessary. Using common sense and the amount of open space on the water should keep this from happening. The area Rich refers to is in fact a no rafting zone. It has been for the last 15 years. Unfortunately,for some reason this was only noted on the marine maps for the first few years. Consequently boaters coming in to the western most section of Winter Harbor are not aware that it is a no rafting zone. This is another cause of tension between homeowners and boaters and usually ends with the Marine Patrol coming to notify the boaters regarding no rafting. If Bizor would correct their map to show that there is a no rafting zone from The Winnimir Condominiums west to the Tuftonboro Neck road, there would be fewer issues.
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Please read this entire thread before telling Bizer what he should do. The official government information is clear as mud (and looks incorrect).
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:21 PM   #107
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Welcome to the forum brc. Can we assume you live in the "NRZ" and have had issues? If so, given the conflicting legal documents, what makes you so sure it's a NRZ in the first place?

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Old 08-12-2015, 06:23 AM   #108
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That was also my first thought, just joined and 1st post.
If that's the case I hope he comes back and gives us his side of the story.
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Old 08-12-2015, 01:51 PM   #109
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Default NRZ in Winter Harbor

I was part of a group of 30+ homeowners who petitioned to have the area in the western most section of Winter Harbor designated as a no rafting zone. We had sufficient reasons to support our petition and after a lengthy review the area was declared a NRZ. The Marine Patrol is not confused by where the NRZ is. Maybe those who are want to be. If Bizor has responsibility for printing the maps, they should also have the responsibility for getting the information correct even though it may be confusing.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:48 PM   #110
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Some folks are talking out against discourteous boaters, which there are certainly some. I add, however, that there are discourteous lake-front homeowners as well. I am both a boater and lakefront homeowner and I believe that both groups are generally courteous with obvious and glaring exceptions from both.

I do think it is flawed logic for a homeowner to think that the lake is large and boaters should anchor elsewhere. I choose not to anchor off someone’s dock. The lake is still public property, not an extension of their property. The homeowner, including myself, choose to buy property adjacent to what is essentially a seasonally active, crowded and noisy state park.

One should not attempt to love the lake while hating all others enjoying it.

Homeowners seeking NRZ's should also realize that many folks use the identified NRZ's as target destinations to go to because they must be nice places to anchor and spend the day. Many boats can still squeeze into NRZ's and anchoring attracts anchoring.
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Old 08-12-2015, 06:36 PM   #111
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Smile Color me confused

I am a novice, both to the lake and boating in general, at this point we have not even used the anchor. Reading this entire thread has left me confused and I wanted to see if I understand the "rules" which may differ from common courtesy
The 10th post in this thread speaks to rafting rules. PART Saf-C 407 RAFTING RULES. If I read this correctly rafting and anchoring are different, and the rules around them are as well. As I continue through the thread what I am gathering is that it is (technically) legal to anchor (not overnight) anywhere on the lake as long as you are anchored at least 150ft from shore (not deck).
If there are more than 2 of you anchored close to one another (less than 50 ft?) then you are considered a "raft"
So that leaves me with it is "legal" (right is a different question) to anchor in a NRZ - as long as you maintain more than the min distance to another boat?
Just asking
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:10 PM   #112
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Woodguy,

Not quite.

If the area you are anchoring in is a designated "No Rafting Zone", then the NRZ rules apply, you can't be within 150 feet of shore, or within 25 feet of another boat, or 50 feet of a raft of boats. Note that there are some NRZ's that have exceptions to these rules. The confusing part is that in a NRZ two boats can tie up together, but not three or more. If two are tied up, then everyone must stay 50 feet away from them.

I suppose NRZs try to prevent situations like this:


If the area is not a legal NRZ, then you can legally anchor anywhere on the lake, and within 150 feet of shore, someone's home, etc. But it's prudent not to anchor in a busy channel, etc. You can also 'raft' with other boats, which generally means to tie up together. There are also no rules about how close you can anchor to someone else because you can actually tie up to another boat to form a 'raft'.

Here's an extreme example of boats rafting together:


Some homeowners like to say "Go somewhere else, don't anchor in front of my home". Legally you can do so, but most of us agree that this wouldn't be very polite.

In the area being discussed in this thread, the legal description of the NRZ is not clear and could be challenged in court if someone would like to do so as the legal definition of the area is as clear as the mud on the bottom of the lake.

It's also a difficult cove in that it's very small and almost any boat in the area could drift within 150 ft of shore or of someone's home as the wind shifts the boat on their anchor rode.

Hopefully I have all my facts straight. I know someone will correct me if I'm even the slightest bit wong!
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Old 08-13-2015, 06:37 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brc View Post
I was part of a group of 30+ homeowners who petitioned to have the area in the western most section of Winter Harbor designated as a no rafting zone. We had sufficient reasons to support our petition and after a lengthy review the area was declared a NRZ. The Marine Patrol is not confused by where the NRZ is. Maybe those who are want to be. If Bizor has responsibility for printing the maps, they should also have the responsibility for getting the information correct even though it may be confusing.
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I would have never guessed you live there

I ask again if you read BizEr's message regarding his chart? Here is is again...

Quote:
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It's not hard to tell, it's impossible to tell. First, a quote from NH regulations at http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rule.../saf-c400.html

Saf-C 407.03 (a) (7) The area of Winter Harbor from the southern boundary of the town of Tuftonboro tax map 63, lot number 14 to the southern boundary of tax map 15, lot number 20;

I believe NH regulations take precedence to the NHMP website, which has ...

(7) Winter Harbor from the southern boundary of the Tuftonboro tax map 63, lot No. 14 to the southern boundary of tax map 51, lot No. 20.

Problem #1: They look the same, but they are not. Aside from the trivial omission of five words and the use of abbreviations, there is one glaring difference: The NH regulations quote tax map 15, not 51. The first thing I noticed back in 1998 was that there is no Winnipesaukee frontage on tax map 15. I assumed the regulation would be corrected, but it has not. So unless the regulation is re-written, it should not be enforced. So Bizer did the best it could. I found map 51 lot 20 and map 63, lot 14 and drew a line between them as depicted on Bizer's charts since 2000. If this were an error, why didn't anyone, including the NHMP, bring this to Bizer's attention until last fall?

Last fall, I received a disappointing letter from a boater who received a rafting ticket. So Bizer did further digging.

Problem #2: Unlike most towns, Tuftonboro tax maps are not just divided into lots. Their maps are divided into blocks (with a number inside a hexagon) then lot numbers. I don't know any other town that does this. There are three lots numbered "20" on tax map 51 and two lots numbered "14" on tax map 63. Which one do I pick? Bizer failed to notice multiple lots in 1998, so I connected the first "20" that I found on map 51 to the first "14" that I found on map 63. [Google "Tuftonboro tax maps"]

Problem #3: The shoreline of lot Map#51, Block#1, Lot#20 runs east-west. If that is the lot to which the regulations refer, which end is the southern boundary? There is no room for ambiguity.

Problem #4: No direction is specified. The regulation should say something like, "The area west of a line ... " but it does not. Regulations can not be ambiguous. Without a direction, someone might claim that the no-rafting area only applies to boats sitting on the line itself.

Incidentally, from my limited legal knowledge, "innocent until proven guilty" usually means innocent because guilt can not be proven in cases of ambiguous laws.

I wrote the NHMP two months ago asking for a clarification before Bizer's next edition (2016), but they have yet to respond.
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Old 08-16-2015, 04:56 AM   #114
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Quote:
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I do think it is flawed logic for a homeowner to think that the lake is large and boaters should anchor elsewhere. I choose not to anchor off someone’s dock. The lake is still public property, not an extension of their property. The homeowner, including myself, choose to buy property adjacent to what is essentially a seasonally active, crowded and noisy state park. One should not attempt to love the lake while hating all others enjoying it. Homeowners seeking NRZ's should also realize that many folks use the identified NRZ's as target destinations to go to because they must be nice places to anchor and spend the day. Many boats can still squeeze into NRZ's and anchoring attracts anchoring.
I'm answering from the perspective that Lake Winnipesaukee wasn't always a "seasonally active, crowded and noisy state park." The Big Lake does return somewhat to normal after weekends. (Fireworks start Friday evening).



The trend, however, is clear...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HellRaZoR004 View Post
Understandably this may have been the case all along - however, is it NECESSARY? Why do we need all these regulations? Sounds like a power trip from the homeowners. [/end rant]
According to Soundings magazine, Lake Winnipesaukee homeowners have it easy compared to the US' eastern seacoast.

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Old 08-18-2015, 09:37 AM   #115
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Seasonally active: Summer to early fall

Crowded: On peak weekends

Noisy: Maybe during some daylight, weekend hours when the GFBL boats are running, or some inconsiderate person is running their music too loud, or you consider the delight of kids playing in the water noisy, or during fireworks displays from about dark to about 1 AM.

The rest of the time, the lake is very quiet and almost deserted.
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Old 08-18-2015, 10:28 AM   #116
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I had boaters anchor about 20-30 feet off my dock this weekend for maybe 3-5 hours. I waved and one gentleman swam over and asked if they were disturbing me. I told them no that's what the lakes for, to enjoy.

If you want to complain about every sight and sound during the weekends in a primarily tourist region then move to MA. Thought this state was live free or die? Now every old man who comes out disgruntled a boater must cater to do everything they say? There is a line between a boater being disrespectful and a landowner just being ridiculous all laws aside in my opinion.
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Old 08-18-2015, 12:11 PM   #117
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I had boaters anchor about 20-30 feet off my dock this weekend for maybe 3-5 hours. I waved and one gentleman swam over and asked if they were disturbing me. I told them no that's what the lakes for, to enjoy.



If you want to complain about every sight and sound during the weekends in a primarily tourist region then move to MA. Thought this state was live free or die? Now every old man who comes out disgruntled a boater must cater to do everything they say? There is a line between a boater being disrespectful and a landowner just being ridiculous all laws aside in my opinion.
Quoted for truth.

If someone is anchored in front of your place not being obnoxious, give them a quick wave and a hello, then go about your normal activities.
If they become obnoxious then say something.

Starting out on the defensive usually doesn't get you anywhere.

In the words of George Costsnza " You know we are living in a society! We're supposed to act in a civilized way"



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Old 08-18-2015, 12:35 PM   #118
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Just playing Devils advocate on this one:
Looking at his user name I'll assume he's on Winnisquam.

There are parts of that lake where if you anchor you have no choice but to be within 20 or 30 feet of someone's dock or your blocking passage way for other boaters. North end of the lake and south end before the island for example.
I have anchored at both places with no problems, but there's not too many million dollar plus homes on that lake. Some are at the north end, and I tend to go in that area, again no problems, but I hardly ever even turn on the radio.
And most people up there usually just wave at you.
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Old 08-18-2015, 12:55 PM   #119
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...but there's not too many million dollar plus homes on that lake.
What does the value of one's property matter? What's right is right, lawfully AND respectfully--as mentioned above, there's a balance here to be had.

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Old 08-18-2015, 12:59 PM   #120
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Bigger houses and land tend to have larger dock space. Did not mean it as a reflection on money. The million plus houses on Winnisquam have bigger lots and larger dock/beach area. You can't be less than 30 feet from some of them with out blocking passage way.
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Old 08-18-2015, 01:01 PM   #121
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Rich,

It is funny you should mention the noise issue.

I was sitting down by the lake over the weekend reading a book and noticed that there is a constant thrum of noise. Boats running up and down the lake, wind in the trees, people laughing, etc. but, during the day it is constant. Not overbearing but constant

I never noticed it before but, like the guy who builds a house next to a highway and whenever he is asked how he can live with it he says "What noise?", I think we all become desensitized after a while.

Once i stopped paying attention to it, it seemed to fade away. I'm sure it is always there (at least during the weekends) but I never noticed it.
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Old 08-18-2015, 01:42 PM   #122
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Bigger houses and land tend to have larger dock space. Did not mean it as a reflection on money. The million plus houses on Winnisquam have bigger lots and larger dock/beach area. You can't be less than 30 feet from some of them with out blocking passage way.


I agree those parts of the lake are the nicest for doing just that. Relaxing anchored not in the path of boats tubing/skiing/surfing/wakeboarding. So every time you want to do that the homeowner should comes out pissed off because you and your family are quietly enjoying them selves on a Sunday morning.

Kind of makes me angry to think people expect total silence. Few more years and people will be complaining the Loon calls are too loud for them to enjoy their morning coffee.
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Old 08-18-2015, 03:11 PM   #123
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Rich,

It is funny you should mention the noise issue.

I was sitting down by the lake over the weekend reading a book and noticed that there is a constant thrum of noise. Boats running up and down the lake, wind in the trees, people laughing, etc. but, during the day it is constant. Not overbearing but constant

I never noticed it before but, like the guy who builds a house next to a highway and whenever he is asked how he can live with it he says "What noise?", I think we all become desensitized after a while.

Once i stopped paying attention to it, it seemed to fade away. I'm sure it is always there (at least during the weekends) but I never noticed it.
I agree... on the peak Summer weekends, there always is the hum of activity.

It can be boats, planes (yes I hear them too), cars and motorcycles on the roads, etc.

I think the geometry of the lake echos, and contains these sounds since the lake is basically a valley surrounded by hills. I could be wrong, but I think it contributes to the hum of fun (the sound of people having fun in and around the lake).

Some people hate the sounds of others enjoying themselves.

I'm more like Winnisquamer, when I see people near the dock I live on every weekend, I smile, wave and say hi.

Being happy is contagious! How can you not be happy, when you are surrounded by happy people that are enjoying themselves?
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Old 08-24-2015, 06:49 PM   #124
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Last week, I wrote the Commissioner of Safety regarding the ambiguity of the NRZ regulation. I am awaiting his reply.
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Old 09-24-2015, 09:06 AM   #125
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It's been a month, did you ever get any kind of an answer to this? Just wondering, thanks!
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Old 12-12-2015, 09:25 AM   #126
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The Department of Safety intends to hold hearings to clarify the matter. Here is a letter from them on the subject.

http://www.bizer.com/DeptSafety151207_Page1.jpg
http://www.bizer.com/DeptSafety151207_Page2.jpg
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Old 12-12-2015, 11:30 AM   #127
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The Department of Safety intends to hold hearings to clarify the matter. Here is a letter from them on the subject.

http://www.bizer.com/DeptSafety151207_Page1.jpg
http://www.bizer.com/DeptSafety151207_Page2.jpg
Until a properly defined rule is promulgated the current one is unenforceable. As written, it allows the enforcer to define what the rule prohibits.
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:26 AM   #128
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Bizer, thanks for following through with this.

If they had the tax maps from back when this NRZ was originally implemented and documented, perhaps the proper location could easily be determined. It's hard to know now if the block numbers existed on the maps back then and were simply not documented on the original NRZ declaration. Maybe it's too hard to find the tax maps from that time period?

However, since they are now saying that a new hearing will be needed, I wonder if the new hearing could jeopardize this NRZ, or is it possible that the hearing could be limited to only clarifying its proper position?
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:14 AM   #129
thinkxingu
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Bizer, any updates on this?

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Old 06-25-2016, 08:22 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkxingu View Post
Bizer, any updates on this?
I have not heard anything. If there were further hearings or legislation on the subject, I was not notified. If nothing has been done, then the MP will have a tough time enforcing this ambiguous regulation.

After checking Department of Safety boating regulations and the Marine Patrol's web page, neither has changed their wording of the regulation.

Last edited by Bizer; 06-25-2016 at 08:27 AM. Reason: After checking NH regulations and MP web pages
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