Bellows Batteries and other things that age

Chaos · 03-06-2010, 07:57 AM

I'm in the process of up-sizing my boating situation and have a 2005 with dual Mercs in my sights. I've searched the forum for expected bellows life expectancy, but haven't found any info. My concern is that my current '02 had a bellows failure in '08 and I'm wondering if 5 to 6 years is the typical life expectancy or if my previous experience was due to premature failure. For such an inexpensive individual component, it can sure put a hole in your wallet if you're not paying attention.

Well I'm at it, I thought I'd ask about batteries. I'm thinking if the batteries are original, I should ask for new ones.

Any other basic maintenance items like this that I'm missing?

Thanks Mike.

hancoveguy · 03-06-2010, 08:26 AM

I am looking forward to reading the forum's answer to Chaos' question. I also want to add some additional questions that someone may be able to answer as well. I just bought a boat that has been in the racks for roughly 3 years. Assuming it was properly put away what should I have checked and should I just have certain items replaced as a preventative measure ie bellows, gimbel, u joints etc.

thanks for the info, didn't mean to hijack or derail the thread,

Chaos · 03-06-2010, 08:33 AM

Thanks Hancoveguy. I still have an opportunity to look at things, so I can benefit from your question as well.

One additional question, I looked for a SAMS surveyor in the area, but found none. Are there any surveyors in the area that may not be accredited by SAMS, that are recommended?

Mike

Dave R · 03-06-2010, 08:46 AM

Bellows seem to last forever on trailered boats that sit in the shade. I replaced mine after 7 years and they still looked fine (I was doing other work that required bellows removal). I know people that have more than a dozen years on them. I suspect constant immersion in dirty marina water and or sun exposure kills them fastest.

Bellows are easy enough to inspect when the drives are off for alignment check (something you should do every year), that's what I do. You should do the same when you are looking at the boat. If you think bellows changes are expensive, you will be shocked by the cost of a coupler replacement.

My batteries are both more than 5 years old. I figure with two, I can gamble that they won't both fail at the same time.

If costs are a big concern, you may want to consider learning how to maintain it yourself. It's enjoyable work and not at all difficult with the right tools and manuals (which would cost less than two bellows replacements).

Dave R · 03-06-2010, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hancoveguy

I am looking forward to reading the forum's answer to Chaos' question. I also want to add some additional questions that someone may be able to answer as well. I just bought a boat that has been in the racks for roughly 3 years. Assuming it was properly put away what should I have checked and should I just have certain items replaced as a preventative measure ie bellows, gimbel, u joints etc.

thanks for the info, didn't mean to hijack or derail the thread,

Pull the drive(s) and check the alignment; then inspect the bellows, shift cable(s), U-joints, coupler(s), and gimbal bearing(s). Replace only stuff that requires it. Drain oil from the drive(s) and look for water. Pressure test the drive(s). Check for excessive steering play (the drive(s) should not move much from side to side). Have the engine(s) and drive(s) serviced (standard annual service) and check for water in the engine oil. Check compression. If that all checks out, sea trial the boat extensively and make sure everything works. Assuming that goes well, check for water in the engine oil and drive oil again.

It would be worth paying a mechanic to do this work if you are not comfortable with it.

BroadHopper · 03-06-2010, 09:30 AM

If you store your drives all the way down, you should be OK. I've had two stern drives for years without any trouble when I follow the above rule. I did have the shift cable boot replace.
Both stern drives were use with over 300 hours on the clock when bought. I sold the first one with over 700 hours with no problems. The present boat has 400 hours on it. Runs awesome.
My secret is to have a reputable mechanic survey the boat. Any item caught below the mechanic's standard is pointed out and the seller usually correct this.
My mechanic is Thom Perry at Dave's Motorboat Shop. He is the best. Give him a call.

John A. Birdsall · 03-06-2010, 11:35 AM

It seems to me that my brother has a boat with a merc-cruiser in it and the second year he had it the bellows proved to be no good. It was sinking on the trailer as he put it in. He had another problem with it either the next year or year after. I recall it and said I am glad I have a OMC.

That being said, I would not feel safe If I did not check it every year and perhaps put some oil on it (coating it) prior to putting in storage, cleaning it off in the spring.

BroadHopper · 03-06-2010, 12:07 PM

5 years on boat batteries is pretty good. I was able to get 7 years on average. I have a smart charger that desulferize batteries. I do that before the boating season. Off season I would give it a trickle charge once a month, put them on a 2X6 instead of concrete floor and top it off with distilled water.
If you use the boat mainly for starting, a marine starter battery will be appropriate. If you do a lot of overnights, a deep charge battery. If you have a day cruiser and raft a lot, no overnights, the dual purpose should fit the bill.
A marine starter battery can handle the rough pounding of a boat far better than an automobile battery.
I have had batteries for 10 years. I was pushing my luck.

rider · 03-06-2010, 02:38 PM

I would recommend doing bellows every 5 years as part of the service. Its worth it, but while your there, might as well do new shift cable, u-joints and gimbal bearing. Keep the drive stored down when not in use, make sure to pump the zerk fitting on the starboard side of transom adapter with grease after use. Be grateful that its a fresh water boat. I live in RI and work on all salt water boats. It takes about 2 hours longer total time because of corrosion. While the repair kits are cheap about $100, 90% of total cost is labor pulling everything apart. I usually charge about $1000-1200 for doing salt water boats (I'M NOT ADVERTISING) just giving you a ball park figure of what to expect to pay. Look for a boat that has Bravo units on them, stay away from Alphas if you can.
You got your moneys worth out of the batteries if they lasted you 5 years. Make sure you specify that you want AGM batteries, trust me, they are the bee's knees.
Find out if the fuel tanks are fiberglass, if they are, pass on the boat. This new gas messes everything up. Inquire if they are the original carbs (if its not fuel injected) or replacements. Find out last time tune-up was done, (cap, rotor, spark plugs and wires). Look for general things, fresh water pump condition, holding tank, and hoses. Check out the toilets, plumbing and holding tank. find out if bleach was ever used in it, if it has, the system is going to need to be replaced (the waste hoses explicitly state not to use bleach). Electronics are another thing, especially corrosion, make sure everything works.
Hire a marine surveyor to check everything out, then hire a qualified marine mechanic to check everything else out. I can not say it enough, hire someone to look at the boat thoroughly. The insight they provide will help you in purchasing power to negotiate with the seller. I see this all the time, people pay way to much for a boat and expect to resell it for all the money in the world. don't get stuck in the trap. Any other questions, feel free to ask or PM me.

Chaos · 03-07-2010, 07:12 AM

Rider, what is wrong with alphas? I believe the boat in question has alpha 1 drives with SS props. It's possible that it has bravo drives, as there were also an option from the single drive standard power plant setup.

Thanks.

Dave R · 03-07-2010, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos

Rider, what is wrong with alphas? I believe the boat in question has alpha 1 drives with SS props. It's possible that it has bravo drives, as there were also an option from the single drive standard power plant setup.

Thanks.

I'm curious too. I've had both Alphas and Bravos and liked them both.

rider · 03-07-2010, 11:37 AM

Alphas have the impeller in the out-drive, bravos have the impeller running off the engine belt. By putting the pump on the engine and not in the out-drive, maintenance becomes so much easier. You can then put a strainer inline to help prevent marine gunk from getting into the engine and winterizing the becomes literally a 5 minute affair. Also, the Bravos are a stronger built engine that can support more horsepower and abuse. A stainless steel prop on an alpha is begging for trouble, one rock or sandbar and that unit is going to have lots of broken issues. If it has a 305 or smaller, an alpha is fine, but 350 or more, go with a bravo.

Chaos · 03-07-2010, 05:49 PM

Thanks Rider. I'm looking at 4.3 220HP Mercs, so with the exception to your maintenance comments, I would think I'm ok?

Thanks again.

Dave R · 03-07-2010, 07:01 PM

It'll have Generation II Alpha legs if it's a 2005. Those have the newer style "floppy vane" impellers that last a long time. My Bravo impeller needs to be changed every other year and it's simply awful to do due to limited clearance around my engine. My last boat had an Alpha and it was much easier to change the impeller in the Alpha, compared to my current boat.

NoBozo · 03-07-2010, 07:49 PM

Alphas were developed before Bravos. In the old days, Alphas could support 454s in racing if you were careful. Alphas can still support 300HP..again if you will refrain from doing "Hole Shots". If you have more than 300HP a Bravo is the drive of choice.

These days horsepower is rated at the prop shaft. I think around...maybe prior to 1992, horsepower claims were rated at the engine flywheel. An outdrive uses up about 35 HP to make the two 90 degree turns that an outdrive makes before the power gets to the propellor......as opposed to a straight inboard... which transmits ALL the power to the prop. So if you have an engine making 250HP at the flywheel, by the time it gets to the prop you have about 215 Hp at the prop. Todays power claims are more honest than prior in that the HP claim is now at the PROP...which ultimately is the "real deal".

Defination: Hole Shot: When you start out at idle speed... and then abruptly add FULL THROTTLE to accelerate in the most spectacular mannner. This maneuver adds severe stress to any drive line.

NB

rider · 03-07-2010, 08:31 PM

4.3L engines are fine with alpha's. As for impeller change, it should be done every year. If you had a Bravo and changing the impeller was a pain, its not Merc's fault. Just a poor boat design. I've seen Baja's where the impeller was behind a stringer and removing the impeller was impossible, I had to lift the engine up with a hoist to swap out the impeller. NoBozo is right on the money with HP and the cut off for the drives.

Dave R · 03-07-2010, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rider

If you had a Bravo and changing the impeller was a pain, its not Merc's fault. Just a poor boat design.

Agreed, but with an Alpha you know it's ALWAYS going to be easy to get access regardless of boat design and it's relatively easy work to do. Plus, you don't have climb in and out of the boat to do it.

rick35 · 03-07-2010, 09:56 PM

Just received the Seloc Mercruiser manual for my 2008 3.0L. I've been thinking about how much work it would be to inspect/replace the impeller. Looks more complicated than I expected. I'm concerned about taking the lower unit apart. Anyone tried this? Any recommendations?

jrc · 03-08-2010, 08:23 PM

Given a "new to me" used boat without solid repair records, I would change the impeller. I had one fail at 375 hours, almost four full seasons and it stranded me in the middle of the Broads.

Batteries depends on age and how you use the boat. If a dead battery could ruin a day of boating or strand you, then I'd change after my fourth winter. If you have several batteries, be more daring.

I never owned a boat long enough to have bellows problems. Six years seems like a pretty short life in fresh water.

As for alphas never heard any complaints. Bravo 3's on the hand have a big issue with corrosion even in freshwater. Make sure you check it well and put magnesium anodes on in place of the stock aluminums. Plus if you break a prop on a Bravo 3, it will cost you around $1200 for a new set.

Chaos · 03-08-2010, 10:40 PM

JRC,
You recommended Magnesium for the anodes. Is there that much of a difference over Zinc? I realize that Magnesium is further away from Aluminum on the Galvanic chart, but I don't have any concept of the value of one over the other. Is there a cost difference?

jrc · 03-09-2010, 06:01 AM

Mercury ships the drives with aluminum anodes that are suppossed to be good enough for salt or fresh. But if you complain about all the paint corroding off your Bravo 3, they will tell you that magnesium anodes are required for fresh water and zinc anodes for salt water. My first B3 lost a bunch of paint in two seasons in the very clean water on a mooring on the broards.

rider · 03-09-2010, 05:03 PM

If you don't know what your doing, you could have some issues. From refilling the drive improperly to making sure the shift fork is alighned. You could end up with more headaches than its worth. Impellers should be changed every year. If your going to inspect it, might as well replace it at that point (Its only $50). For what they cost and work involved changing them its worth it. If an impeller breaks apart, all of the veins need to be accounted for or else your in for problems in the future (overheating, water injection issues, and problems).

03-06-2010, 07:57 AM	#1
Chaos Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Danville, NH and West Alton Marina Posts: 134 Thanks: 111 Thanked 32 Times in 20 Posts	Bellows Batteries and other things that age I'm in the process of up-sizing my boating situation and have a 2005 with dual Mercs in my sights. I've searched the forum for expected bellows life expectancy, but haven't found any info. My concern is that my current '02 had a bellows failure in '08 and I'm wondering if 5 to 6 years is the typical life expectancy or if my previous experience was due to premature failure. For such an inexpensive individual component, it can sure put a hole in your wallet if you're not paying attention. Well I'm at it, I thought I'd ask about batteries. I'm thinking if the batteries are original, I should ask for new ones. Any other basic maintenance items like this that I'm missing? Thanks Mike.

03-06-2010, 08:26 AM	#2
hancoveguy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 276 Thanks: 95 Thanked 65 Times in 30 Posts	supplemental question I am looking forward to reading the forum's answer to Chaos' question. I also want to add some additional questions that someone may be able to answer as well. I just bought a boat that has been in the racks for roughly 3 years. Assuming it was properly put away what should I have checked and should I just have certain items replaced as a preventative measure ie bellows, gimbel, u joints etc. thanks for the info, didn't mean to hijack or derail the thread,

03-06-2010, 08:33 AM	#3
Chaos Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Danville, NH and West Alton Marina Posts: 134 Thanks: 111 Thanked 32 Times in 20 Posts	Not a Hijack Thanks Hancoveguy. I still have an opportunity to look at things, so I can benefit from your question as well. One additional question, I looked for a SAMS surveyor in the area, but found none. Are there any surveyors in the area that may not be accredited by SAMS, that are recommended? Mike

03-06-2010, 09:30 AM	#6
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,512 Thanks: 3,116 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	Bellows. If you store your drives all the way down, you should be OK. I've had two stern drives for years without any trouble when I follow the above rule. I did have the shift cable boot replace. Both stern drives were use with over 300 hours on the clock when bought. I sold the first one with over 700 hours with no problems. The present boat has 400 hours on it. Runs awesome. My secret is to have a reputable mechanic survey the boat. Any item caught below the mechanic's standard is pointed out and the seller usually correct this. My mechanic is Thom Perry at Dave's Motorboat Shop. He is the best. Give him a call. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

03-06-2010, 11:35 AM	#7
John A. Birdsall Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Norwich, CT Posts: 599 Thanks: 27 Thanked 51 Times in 35 Posts	bellows It seems to me that my brother has a boat with a merc-cruiser in it and the second year he had it the bellows proved to be no good. It was sinking on the trailer as he put it in. He had another problem with it either the next year or year after. I recall it and said I am glad I have a OMC. That being said, I would not feel safe If I did not check it every year and perhaps put some oil on it (coating it) prior to putting in storage, cleaning it off in the spring.

The Following User Says Thank You to Chaos For This Useful Post:
NoRegrets (03-07-2010)

03-06-2010, 08:46 AM	#4
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	Bellows seem to last forever on trailered boats that sit in the shade. I replaced mine after 7 years and they still looked fine (I was doing other work that required bellows removal). I know people that have more than a dozen years on them. I suspect constant immersion in dirty marina water and or sun exposure kills them fastest. Bellows are easy enough to inspect when the drives are off for alignment check (something you should do every year), that's what I do. You should do the same when you are looking at the boat. If you think bellows changes are expensive, you will be shocked by the cost of a coupler replacement. My batteries are both more than 5 years old. I figure with two, I can gamble that they won't both fail at the same time. If costs are a big concern, you may want to consider learning how to maintain it yourself. It's enjoyable work and not at all difficult with the right tools and manuals (which would cost less than two bellows replacements).

03-06-2010, 12:07 PM	#8
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,512 Thanks: 3,116 Thanked 1,090 Times in 784 Posts	As far as batteries 5 years on boat batteries is pretty good. I was able to get 7 years on average. I have a smart charger that desulferize batteries. I do that before the boating season. Off season I would give it a trickle charge once a month, put them on a 2X6 instead of concrete floor and top it off with distilled water. If you use the boat mainly for starting, a marine starter battery will be appropriate. If you do a lot of overnights, a deep charge battery. If you have a day cruiser and raft a lot, no overnights, the dual purpose should fit the bill. A marine starter battery can handle the rough pounding of a boat far better than an automobile battery. I have had batteries for 10 years. I was pushing my luck. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.

03-06-2010, 02:38 PM	#9
rider Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 2 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	what to expect I would recommend doing bellows every 5 years as part of the service. Its worth it, but while your there, might as well do new shift cable, u-joints and gimbal bearing. Keep the drive stored down when not in use, make sure to pump the zerk fitting on the starboard side of transom adapter with grease after use. Be grateful that its a fresh water boat. I live in RI and work on all salt water boats. It takes about 2 hours longer total time because of corrosion. While the repair kits are cheap about $100, 90% of total cost is labor pulling everything apart. I usually charge about $1000-1200 for doing salt water boats (I'M NOT ADVERTISING) just giving you a ball park figure of what to expect to pay. Look for a boat that has Bravo units on them, stay away from Alphas if you can. You got your moneys worth out of the batteries if they lasted you 5 years. Make sure you specify that you want AGM batteries, trust me, they are the bee's knees. Find out if the fuel tanks are fiberglass, if they are, pass on the boat. This new gas messes everything up. Inquire if they are the original carbs (if its not fuel injected) or replacements. Find out last time tune-up was done, (cap, rotor, spark plugs and wires). Look for general things, fresh water pump condition, holding tank, and hoses. Check out the toilets, plumbing and holding tank. find out if bleach was ever used in it, if it has, the system is going to need to be replaced (the waste hoses explicitly state not to use bleach). Electronics are another thing, especially corrosion, make sure everything works. Hire a marine surveyor to check everything out, then hire a qualified marine mechanic to check everything else out. I can not say it enough, hire someone to look at the boat thoroughly. The insight they provide will help you in purchasing power to negotiate with the seller. I see this all the time, people pay way to much for a boat and expect to resell it for all the money in the world. don't get stuck in the trap. Any other questions, feel free to ask or PM me.

03-07-2010, 07:12 AM	#10
Chaos Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Danville, NH and West Alton Marina Posts: 134 Thanks: 111 Thanked 32 Times in 20 Posts	Rider, what is wrong with alphas? I believe the boat in question has alpha 1 drives with SS props. It's possible that it has bravo drives, as there were also an option from the single drive standard power plant setup. Thanks.

03-07-2010, 11:37 AM	#12
rider Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 2 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	A couple of things Alphas have the impeller in the out-drive, bravos have the impeller running off the engine belt. By putting the pump on the engine and not in the out-drive, maintenance becomes so much easier. You can then put a strainer inline to help prevent marine gunk from getting into the engine and winterizing the becomes literally a 5 minute affair. Also, the Bravos are a stronger built engine that can support more horsepower and abuse. A stainless steel prop on an alpha is begging for trouble, one rock or sandbar and that unit is going to have lots of broken issues. If it has a 305 or smaller, an alpha is fine, but 350 or more, go with a bravo.

The Following User Says Thank You to rider For This Useful Post:
NoRegrets (03-07-2010)

03-07-2010, 05:49 PM	#13
Chaos Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Danville, NH and West Alton Marina Posts: 134 Thanks: 111 Thanked 32 Times in 20 Posts	Alpha Drives Thanks Rider. I'm looking at 4.3 220HP Mercs, so with the exception to your maintenance comments, I would think I'm ok? Thanks again.

03-07-2010, 07:01 PM	#14
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,974 Thanks: 246 Thanked 736 Times in 438 Posts	It'll have Generation II Alpha legs if it's a 2005. Those have the newer style "floppy vane" impellers that last a long time. My Bravo impeller needs to be changed every other year and it's simply awful to do due to limited clearance around my engine. My last boat had an Alpha and it was much easier to change the impeller in the Alpha, compared to my current boat.

03-07-2010, 07:49 PM	#15
NoBozo Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Portsmouth. RI Posts: 2,231 Thanks: 400 Thanked 460 Times in 308 Posts	Alphas Vs Bravos Alphas were developed before Bravos. In the old days, Alphas could support 454s in racing if you were careful. Alphas can still support 300HP..again if you will refrain from doing "Hole Shots". If you have more than 300HP a Bravo is the drive of choice. These days horsepower is rated at the prop shaft. I think around...maybe prior to 1992, horsepower claims were rated at the engine flywheel. An outdrive uses up about 35 HP to make the two 90 degree turns that an outdrive makes before the power gets to the propellor......as opposed to a straight inboard... which transmits ALL the power to the prop. So if you have an engine making 250HP at the flywheel, by the time it gets to the prop you have about 215 Hp at the prop. Todays power claims are more honest than prior in that the HP claim is now at the PROP...which ultimately is the "real deal". Defination: Hole Shot: When you start out at idle speed... and then abruptly add FULL THROTTLE to accelerate in the most spectacular mannner. This maneuver adds severe stress to any drive line. NB

03-07-2010, 08:31 PM	#16
rider Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 2 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	4.3L engines are fine with alpha's. As for impeller change, it should be done every year. If you had a Bravo and changing the impeller was a pain, its not Merc's fault. Just a poor boat design. I've seen Baja's where the impeller was behind a stringer and removing the impeller was impossible, I had to lift the engine up with a hoist to swap out the impeller. NoBozo is right on the money with HP and the cut off for the drives.

03-07-2010, 09:56 PM	#18
rick35 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bear Island/Merrimack Posts: 710 Thanks: 56 Thanked 170 Times in 104 Posts	Good timing... Just received the Seloc Mercruiser manual for my 2008 3.0L. I've been thinking about how much work it would be to inspect/replace the impeller. Looks more complicated than I expected. I'm concerned about taking the lower unit apart. Anyone tried this? Any recommendations?

03-08-2010, 08:23 PM	#19
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Given a "new to me" used boat without solid repair records, I would change the impeller. I had one fail at 375 hours, almost four full seasons and it stranded me in the middle of the Broads. Batteries depends on age and how you use the boat. If a dead battery could ruin a day of boating or strand you, then I'd change after my fourth winter. If you have several batteries, be more daring. I never owned a boat long enough to have bellows problems. Six years seems like a pretty short life in fresh water. As for alphas never heard any complaints. Bravo 3's on the hand have a big issue with corrosion even in freshwater. Make sure you check it well and put magnesium anodes on in place of the stock aluminums. Plus if you break a prop on a Bravo 3, it will cost you around $1200 for a new set.

03-08-2010, 10:40 PM	#20
Chaos Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Danville, NH and West Alton Marina Posts: 134 Thanks: 111 Thanked 32 Times in 20 Posts	magnesium vs. zinc JRC, You recommended Magnesium for the anodes. Is there that much of a difference over Zinc? I realize that Magnesium is further away from Aluminum on the Galvanic chart, but I don't have any concept of the value of one over the other. Is there a cost difference?

03-09-2010, 06:01 AM	#21
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Mercury ships the drives with aluminum anodes that are suppossed to be good enough for salt or fresh. But if you complain about all the paint corroding off your Bravo 3, they will tell you that magnesium anodes are required for fresh water and zinc anodes for salt water. My first B3 lost a bunch of paint in two seasons in the very clean water on a mooring on the broards.

03-09-2010, 05:03 PM	#22
rider Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 2 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	leave it to the pros..... If you don't know what your doing, you could have some issues. From refilling the drive improperly to making sure the shift fork is alighned. You could end up with more headaches than its worth. Impellers should be changed every year. If your going to inspect it, might as well replace it at that point (Its only $50). For what they cost and work involved changing them its worth it. If an impeller breaks apart, all of the veins need to be accounted for or else your in for problems in the future (overheating, water injection issues, and problems).