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Old 08-22-2019, 08:47 AM   #1
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Default Moultonboro assessor larceny

So I just got my new "proposed" assessment and my land value magically increased by 16.5%. our property is waterfront. I checked our neighborhood and EVERYONE'S land increased by 16.5% if on the water. I then checked other waterfront in Moultonboro and apparently ALL waterfront has increased by the same %. WOW. Amazing how all properties in one town can increase by the same % across the board!

This strikes me as nothing but a huge money grab by the town and property owners must show their outrage.

I will be appealing but I suspect I know the outcome...
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:39 AM   #2
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We hear you! We have the same new proposed assessment. Just imagine the glee at town hall, with all the extra $$$$ to play with. It is imperative that the millage be reduced significantly, and it’s possible that the Selectboard will be diligent in this. The new assessment is not so problematic; it’s the millage and how our tax bills are impacted. JMHO.

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Old 08-22-2019, 09:52 AM   #3
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The Tuftonboro assessors must have attended the same "money grab" class that the Moultonborough assessors attended. My assessment went up 50% for an island property.
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:19 AM   #4
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This old thread seems to come up every year. Only the name of the town changes.
If spending doesn't go up, and the assessment does go up as required by state law to keep pace with market value, then the tax RATE goes down. You won't know the tax rate until it is set in October by the state. Of course, most town finance officers can usually estimate any change within a penny or two before they send the paperwork to the state. (Trivia: Actually, it's done on line though the Municipal Tax Rate Setting Portal, MTRSP. I just learned that yesterday.)
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:57 AM   #5
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Default tax increase

If you were a conspiracy theorist....

Year before town election, increase assessments on the people most likely not to have the ability to vote, their taxes go up, but the overall rate decreases, so those whose assessments did not change actually get the benefit of a reduction in taxes, and have the ability to vote, voters are happy, politicians get reelected, wait 2-4 more years and repeat....
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:13 AM   #6
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Has Moultonborough land that is not waterfront property also been assessed at a higher value this year and, if so, what is the typical percentage increase? The prior posts appear to assume only waterfront property assessments have been increased; perhaps one of the authors of prior posts has the details for all property and can share such information on the forum.
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:54 AM   #7
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Things look questionable. Last year my waterfront land went down 1.9%, now it is up 16.67%. And every one in our neighborhood went up the same percentage. This is the possible penalty of the town switching assessors this year to a new firm. And there are no details available for any properties. No property cards. Nada. And the BOS was never informed of what the results of the new assessments were before they were mailed. And the TA was on vacation. People need to make a loud noise about this.....it is outrageous.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:14 PM   #8
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16.67% increase for me too. Will be watching carefully for final rate in Oct.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:16 PM   #9
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According to our letter from the town, a printed listing of all proposed values is available at town offices and public library. We will be reviewing that. It will be important that taxpayers pay attention to the proposed budgets and millage rate! We are not unhappy with our assessment per se, but their methodology might be questionable. If they are going to do an “across the board” valuation, this should be up for discussion. For instance, what parameters are they using? There are so many variables when you are evaluating a [waterfront] property
(location, water quality, etc.). Should be interesting. Let your Selectboard members know your concerns.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:49 PM   #10
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The 2019 Preliminary Values are on the Town's website in PDF format.

See

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...y_location.pdf
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:00 PM   #11
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Default Robbing Hood

Posted on the town web site is a list of increases:
The results of the PRELIMINARY 2019 Valuation Update are as follows:
Waterfront improved increased 11.8%
Residential improved increased 5.6%
Residential Vacant increased 10.9%
Manufactured Housing increased 1.4%
Residential Condos increased 1.3%
Commercial improved increased 4.1%
Industrial improved increased 4.7%
Overall the town increased by 9.6%

As mentioned, waterfront land went up 16.7% while people's "back lots" went up about 8%.

The only positive spin I can think of is that non-waterfront lots will see their taxes decrease, helping to attract more full-time residents to the low-taxed town.
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:00 PM   #12
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I just checked it out online. For Squam waterfront....OUCH!
As for properties we are very familiar with, there are some definite discrepancies. What each owner does re their own property is up to them, but more worrisome is the final millage rate.
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:20 PM   #13
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Well I see I am not the only one that was outraged by my property Tax Assessment this year in Moultonborough.

The good news is I had the property appraised back in the Spring, and well it didnt appraise for either the old or now new assessed value...

So yes I will be appealing as well.

NH has many fiscal anomalies, being overzealous on seasonal property assessments is on of them......

Fortunately I feel like I have good data on my side, but we will see....

By the way, my neighbor is trying to sell for roughly the new assessed value, I don't think it has sold.... my appraisal is a 200K delta..... Bottom line is someone is cooking the books.... All in the name of trying to keep NH "Tax Free", which is a crock of, well never mind.....
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Old 08-22-2019, 02:33 PM   #14
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I don't get what the big deal is.....

When was the last time your assessment went up? Was it double digits last year? Taxes are inevitable...

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Old 08-22-2019, 02:56 PM   #15
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I don't get what the big deal is.....

When was the last time your assessment went up? Was it double digits last year? Taxes are inevitable...

Woodsy
Woodsy, in all places where I have owned property, the Assessed values is very close to if not exactly the same as the fair market value of the Property.

The only place I have owned property that is not that way is NH.... The Assessed values have always been higher then the fair market value of the property. For the most part I am willing to take the good with the bad, and don't get fired up about the difference I know is there. But some odd years ago the Assessed values jumped considerably... causing a surge in property taxes while keeping the tax rate the same..... Now here we go again doing the same thing.... effectively raising the take rate but hiding it by higher assessment values.....

This happens all over NH, from what I can tell.... All in an effort to keep that "Tax Free" image....

What I don't like is being told that the value of my property is considerably more then it really is..... If I could sell it for the Assessed value, I wouldn't have an issue, but I know I can't.... and the delta between fair market value and assessed value is now around 200K in my case....

I am guessing that delta means I am paying an addition 1.6K per year in taxes, on a property value that I can't realize.....

I am not looking for my taxes to go down.... I am really after true assessment value.... and truth in Tax Rates..... We should not be see discrepancies like this.....
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:13 PM   #16
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LI,you might have a legitimate question/complaint. The question is...how many who are so irate would actually sell their property at its assessed value? Oh, no? I didn’t think so! In other words, if you are complaining about your $800k assessment, but wouldn’t consider selling for under $1 million, kwitcherbitchin.
P.S. This doesn’t apply to those who have a legitimate issue with this.
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:41 PM   #17
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LI,you might have a legitimate question/complaint. The question is...how many who are so irate would actually sell their property at its assessed value? Oh, no? I didn’t think so! In other words, if you are complaining about your $800k assessment, but wouldn’t consider selling for under $1 million, kwitcherbitchin.
P.S. This doesn’t apply to those who have a legitimate issue with this.
Yes your point is valid.... Here is the thing, if I was offered the assessed value I would very much consider selling the property.... My property has a simple camp, season structure, that is less then 10% of the value.... So they are telling me all my value is in the land. Which again I am fine with, I know if I sell the next owners are likely to demolish the camp and build something year around..... However if the fair market value of the camp, is 200K less with the season structure on it, what I am being told, is if I want to sell I should first demolish the structure, so that the land is worth more......

End of the day this is all semantics.... NH needs more tax revenue, most of the towns do not want to raise tax rates.... So when the state ups it share, their counter measure is to raise property values.... Do we really not see the problem here..... It called telling the truth....tell me the truth, and I am happy, Lie to me so that your state doesn't have to institute a sales tax or income tax, and inflate the value of personal property over the fair market value, I am not happy......

What everyone in Moultonborough should have recognized is that the Assesment company is new this year, likely because the old company would not just simply raise the value of the land. There are multiple layers going on here, and it all semantics......

Bottom line is they have raised my Taxes... That I am fine with.... Do it honestly and not hidden, and I go away no problem....

What I am taking issue with is not the taxes, it is telling me that my property is worth something that I can not reasonable sell it for.............
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:18 PM   #18
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Seems to me that when we had Donor towns that they used gross assed values to determine the shares. So we need to be careful that the assessed values are not too out of line. There is too much variation now between last year and this year. Wonder how much is due to the new appraisal firm.
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym View Post
We hear you! We have the same new proposed assessment. Just imagine the glee at town hall, with all the extra $$$$ to play with. It is imperative that the millage be reduced significantly, and it’s possible that the Selectboard will be diligent in this. The new assessment is not so problematic; it’s the millage and how our tax bills are impacted. JMHO.
For sure, lakefront owners will bear a greater percentage of the tax collected, therefore, their tax bills will be higher. The big question is what new project will be sprung on the taxpayers ? Another try at a swimming pool, senior center or ??
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:11 AM   #20
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Moultonborough has always had the lowest waterfront taxes of all the Winni waterfront towns. Now you're being bent over like everyone else.
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Old 08-22-2019, 10:13 AM   #21
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Laconia did the same thing about 2 years ago, all lake front up 30% on the land value, with the exception of commercial properties which several received abatement.
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Old 08-25-2019, 01:12 PM   #22
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So I just got my new "proposed" assessment and my land value magically increased by 16.5%. our property is waterfront. I checked our neighborhood and EVERYONE'S land increased by 16.5% if on the water. I then checked other waterfront in Moultonboro and apparently ALL waterfront has increased by the same %. WOW. Amazing how all properties in one town can increase by the same % across the board!

This strikes me as nothing but a huge money grab by the town and property owners must show their outrage.

I will be appealing but I suspect I know the outcome...
You thought Moultonboro was bad at 16.5%. How would you feel if your waterfront property even on an island went up 49% like ours did and most everyone that has called me in Tuftonboro.
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Old 08-26-2019, 01:28 PM   #23
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I checked on my waterfront land assessment and it did go up by 16.67%. I checked a sampling of 4 of our acquaintances in Moultonborough on different parts of the Lake and their waterfront land values also went up by exactly the same factor of 16.67%. Our respective shore fronts have wildly different characteristics – walk in sandy beach, perched beach, no beach (all ledge), etc. How is that possible when as I understand it, the assessment of the land is supposed to be based on the value of that individual parcel? Unless the answer is that the values prior to this preliminary re assessment were perfect and without error so that all the “expert” had to do was apply one percentage increase across the board, this makes no sense. That approach would certainly hold down the “experts” cost of doing the work. The response that the final tax rate may (???) not result in a tax increase is not satisfactory since if the assessment is flawed, then that does not make the final tax any less flawed. It will be interesting to see that the State Department of revenue Administration thinks of this valuation methodology.
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Old 08-26-2019, 01:52 PM   #24
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Maybe they are just jacking everyone up, and processing the "equality" thru the abatement (complaint) process ? Cheap and dirty and they will come out ahead, as many people either won't know or want to spend money on a lawyer.
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:16 PM   #25
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My question is ... Could you sell your property for the assessed value? If you can prove you can't you have a valid complaint. Otherwise ... it's for the children.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:30 AM   #26
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My question is ... Could you sell your property for the assessed value? If you can prove you can't you have a valid complaint. Otherwise ... it's for the children.
So here is my delemia, based on some investigative work, I could sell my property for something close to the assessed value..... Unfortunately how long it may take me to do so is another question entirely....

On place in my area was for sale, for 2+ years off and on, and the other was on sale for now 1+ year, and may have sold.... and a third sold within I believe 18 months..... All places have about the same amount of land, and the land is all valued roughly the same.....

Now if I look at my appraisal done this year, his price is based on selling the property within 6 Months....

This all makes my head hurt.... I was thinking of fighting my assessment, but now I am not so sure... I believe essentially I would have to prove, that I couldn't sell it for the Assessed value.... when two recent sales say I could....
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Old 08-27-2019, 11:50 AM   #27
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Who does Moultonboro use for the appraisal? No doubt they don't do it themselves. When was the last time your property was assessed?

Most likely your value was determined by that 6 month old sale, and the sale of similar properties in neighboring towns all fed into a silly computer that spits out the assessed value! UGH!


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Old 08-27-2019, 01:36 PM   #28
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The town, in its wisdom, got rid of Vision Appraisals and hired a new one, and the name escapes me. It appears that all the waterfront land appraisals have magically gone up 16.67%, which means that the new guys are considering the old assessments to be flawless, which is certainly not the case. Without going into detail, our next door neighbors have an extraordinarily high assessment, which they are appealing. If this is the procedure they are going to use, we don’t need to be paying big bucks for something so mediocre. JMO.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:10 AM   #29
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The town, in its wisdom, got rid of Vision Appraisals and hired a new one, and the name escapes me. JMO.
From website:

“Whitney Consulting Group LLC (WCG) has been contracted by the Town to measure and list approximately 1,200 properties (20% of the town)"

About Whitney Consulting Group, LLC
President, Stephan Hamilton
Mr. Hamilton served as the Director of the Municipal and Property Division of the New Hampshire Department of Revenue Administration for over ten years. In that role, he was responsible for the supervision of the collection of property taxes, organization and reporting of municipal finances within the state, the setting of local tax rates, supervision of local property assessments in the state, the equalization of local assessed values, the administration of timber and gravel taxation, and the administration of a state utility property tax.

Mr. Hamilton served for twelve years as a member on the NH Assessing Standards Board, …

He served for more than ten years on the NH Current Use Board and served as its chairman for the last four years.

Mr. Hamilton has worked in property taxation for the last twenty years in several roles: for five years as an assessor in Manchester, New Hampshire; for four years as an appraiser for the New Hampshire Board of Tax and Land Appeals; and as the assistant assessor for the Town of Londonderry, New Hampshire. Prior to these public positions, he was a Certified Commercial Real Estate Appraiser, and he helped run a family real estate appraisal company for 14 years
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Old 08-27-2019, 03:45 PM   #30
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So here is my delemia, based on some investigative work, I could sell my property for something close to the assessed value..... Unfortunately how long it may take me to do so is another question entirely....

On place in my area was for sale, for 2+ years off and on, and the other was on sale for now 1+ year, and may have sold.... and a third sold within I believe 18 months..... All places have about the same amount of land, and the land is all valued roughly the same.....

Now if I look at my appraisal done this year, his price is based on selling the property within 6 Months....

This all makes my head hurt.... I was thinking of fighting my assessment, but now I am not so sure... I believe essentially I would have to prove, that I couldn't sell it for the Assessed value.... when two recent sales say I could....
Or you can cherry pick sales that are favorable to your opinion while the assessor may do the opposite. Who's "opinion" is right?

Think about it this way.... let's say your place is worth 500K FMV. The house next door is identical. If the house next to you sells after several years on the market for 1 million does that make yours worth the same? The assessor may say yes. On the flip side if the house next door were to be foreclosed and sold at auction for 250K is your place worth 250K? You KNOW the assessor would say hell no.

Just sayin....
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Old 08-27-2019, 04:50 PM   #31
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well I for one will look for an hearing,due to the fact I don't have a school aged child as I did in southern NH and FL to trim my burden
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:40 PM   #32
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Not having children in a town’s school system in New Hampshire is totally irrelevant in terms of your assessment or ultimate tax. But let us know if that argument gets you any relief.
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Old 08-28-2019, 05:56 AM   #33
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Not having children in a town’s school system in New Hampshire is totally irrelevant in terms of your assessment or ultimate tax. But let us know if that argument gets you any relief.
Of course it won't. It is totally about what they think the value of the property is nothing else. That doesn't mean some of it isn't opinion though. Comparison to other equal property is the only thing that could change their assessment unless something is wrong like size or something like that.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:05 PM   #34
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Or you can cherry pick sales that are favorable to your opinion while the assessor may do the opposite. Who's "opinion" is right?

Think about it this way.... let's say your place is worth 500K FMV. The house next door is identical. If the house next to you sells after several years on the market for 1 million does that make yours worth the same? The assessor may say yes. On the flip side if the house next door were to be foreclosed and sold at auction for 250K is your place worth 250K? You KNOW the assessor would say hell no.

Just sayin....
Thats the issue, there is an amount of the worth of a piece of real estate that is personal opinion... The Appriaser I used, picked properties for comparison that he thought where similar.... but another appraiser may feel there where a different set "similar properties" I am far from done looking at this... but I am not so hung up on being ready to meet with the assessor.... Because I can see the argument from the other side, after looking at some data.....

Now, if other residents want to get together and go to a town meeting and object to the fact that everyone's land values went up an enormous amount, I will be there for that.

Bottom line, NH is a great minimal Tax state for people that live there, but the property tax season home owners have to deal with is unbelievably high.... I get that my property on the lake is something special.... but what about the person that just has a cabin in the woods....
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:31 PM   #35
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It IS a lot of opinion.
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:18 PM   #36
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Bottom line, NH is a great minimal Tax state for people that live there, but the property tax season home owners have to deal with is unbelievably high.... I get that my property on the lake is something special.... but what about the person that just has a cabin in the woods....
The shoreline property of this lake and many others like it has long ago surpassed being affordable by a Regular Joe NH resident.

Almost every shore front owner complains about the property appraisals and the taxes... (its my 2nd home, I have no services blah blah blah) You can blame your neighbors.. the ones who sold out and cashed out... ultimately raising the value of your property to the point where it becomes unaffordable to you or your family. Then you too will sell out and cash out.

It sucks... but it has been that way for generations.

Woodsy
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Old 08-28-2019, 05:13 PM   #37
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The shoreline property of this lake and many others like it has long ago surpassed being affordable by a Regular Joe NH resident.

Almost every shore front owner complains about the property appraisals and the taxes... (its my 2nd home, I have no services blah blah blah) You can blame your neighbors.. the ones who sold out and cashed out... ultimately raising the value of your property to the point where it becomes unaffordable to you or your family. Then you too will sell out and cash out.

It sucks... but it has been that way for generations.

Woodsy
The point is being missed, what we are seeing in Moultonborough isn't just about the shore front property owners. I know who and what is to blame for lake front property values.

While the lake front property values went up the most, across the board the town just increased the taxable value of every piece of property. Even the guy in the woods.... Here is the thing that is wrong with that. Should every paracel of land be worth the same amount, as long as it is the same size?

I looked at the land values for every property on the road I am on, most of which are exactly the same size. Guess what they are all the same... Now mine has no landscaping, others are highly landscaped. (none anymore are wooded)... Some are easily build able, others like mine are not With the current set back laws building on my property become difficult, as it is pie shaped. But I have the same number of feet on the water as everyone else, so my property value is the same.....

Has it always been like this yes. I remember my father objecting to the Town, back in the nineties.... Bottom line in some regards these values are being derived based false metrics.

I completely agree with the structure values that a in the report. In fact i think they have undervalued everyone house.

Bottom line, is and still is, NH is willing to screw those that are willing to invest in their state. Eventually the lake is going to become the state of the Rich, and their servants because no-one else is going to be able to afford property Taxes.....
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Old 08-28-2019, 07:01 PM   #38
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Bottom line, is and still is, NH is willing to screw those that are willing to invest in their state. Eventually the lake is going to become the state of the Rich, and their servants because no-one else is going to be able to afford property Taxes.....
It already is... and has been for quite some time!

The question you should be asking is how much was the valuation jump last year? The year before?

If there has been a small percentage increase each year, then this is just the town catching up to the current real estate market that suffers from low supply & high demand.

If there has been double digit percentage increases the last few years as well then the problem bears a deeper look.

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Old 08-29-2019, 08:21 AM   #39
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It already is... and has been for quite some time!

The question you should be asking is how much was the valuation jump last year? The year before?

If there has been a small percentage increase each year, then this is just the town catching up to the current real estate market that suffers from low supply & high demand.

If there has been double digit percentage increases the last few years as well then the problem bears a deeper look.

Woodsy
They only reassess every few years, not every year-I forget how many. But it is state law they must keep them at 100% valuation.
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Old 08-30-2019, 06:42 AM   #40
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It is more complex than just a physical reassessment. They are not only doing a reassessment of 20% of the properties but also a " Statistical Update of values".

Here is a link to the town's explanation. UPDATE.

Durham NH went through a Statistical Update of values in 2018 Durham UPDATE and their property assessments went up 16% as well. A statistical assessment assesses the whole town valuation and raises the overall assessment of town property valuation to match predicted current value. It is law that NH towns must make good efforts to keep assessed values as close to market as possible so they MUST do this. AGAIN, if the whole town is valued more and the budget does not increase, the tax rate will drop and your tax payment would not change.

Further, it is not clear to me that Vision has been "replaced" with Whitney Consulting Group LLC. I think they contracted with Whitney to do the specific visitation and measure portion of the physical reassessment. So there likely is no "plot" to get a new assessor to boost values.

If you have been reassessed, validate the details carefully for accuracy. Check how much the TOWN valuation increased. If your property increased by 15% but the whole town increased 17%, you actually LOST a little value, comparatively. Watch for the town, county, and school budgets to be set and check for increases. Then wait for the tax rate to be set before you panic.

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Old 08-30-2019, 07:11 AM   #41
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Wrong....Vision is totally out of the process except the town, under a contract, is still using their property record card for this year. But the whole deal is under a new consultant....NO Vision input. And watch out for your taxes as there is no indication that town spending will offset any increase. Moultonborough is on a spending spree....ever see the BOS apply any of the unassigned free cash balance to offset tax rate increase? No, me neither. The last approach was to spend, spend, spend and not rebate any prior year overcharges that resulted in unassigned money.

If you are a lakefront property owner, most everyone saw a blanket 16.67% increase in land values....everyone. No details are available as to how this rate increase was calculated. Lots of questions.

Wishing that the tax rate will offset the increased assessments is a stretch. Never going to happen.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:56 PM   #42
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I wonder if businesses got hit the same. They should probably be assessed higher than homeowners. Ie the marina at end of Long Island,that yahct club near Trexlers, Trexlers themselves, and that trailer park just past them. Can’t think of any others but probably there are more.They make money off the lake and should therefore be on the hook for higher taxes. JMHO
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:03 PM   #43
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I should of been clearer in my earlier post....referring to businesses ON the lake.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:07 PM   #44
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I wonder if businesses got hit the same. They should probably be assessed higher than homeowners. Ie the marina at end of Long Island,that yahct club near Trexlers, Trexlers themselves, and that trailer park just past them. Can’t think of any others but probably there are more.They make money off the lake and should therefore be on the hook for higher taxes. JMHO
Just curious as to why the commercial rate should be higher than residential. Where I'm from it's always a debate - some towns have different rates while others keep the rate the same for both.

As a homeowner, I say jack up the commercial rate, but as a business owner, I say keep them the same...

You can have different rates for residential and commercial use, but cannot simply change assessments.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:08 PM   #45
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Assessing databases are online.
http://gis.vgsi.com/moultonboroughnh/
No need to "wonder if"
Let us know what you find.
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Old 10-01-2019, 05:02 PM   #46
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Did I read that right Sue, 24 graduating seniors in Moultonborough? Anyone know what the per pupil expense is for all Moultonborough students?


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Old 10-01-2019, 05:27 PM   #47
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I understand that the current cost per pupil in Moultonborough is $28,000. That’s a lot of dough. It’s been suggested that we should strike a deal with Brewster Academy. You should be able to get the actual $$ amount from the school, but they are reluctant, for obvious reasons, to give the costs.
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Old 10-01-2019, 05:50 PM   #48
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I understand that the current cost per pupil in Moultonborough is $28,000. That’s a lot of dough. It’s been suggested that we should strike a deal with Brewster Academy. You should be able to get the actual $$ amount from the school, but they are reluctant, for obvious reasons, to give the costs.
Brewster (boarding) is a LOT more than that. I think Tuftonboro should leave Gov.Wentworth and join Moultonboro. Not sure how many students are in Tuftonboro though. Also the state education tax is higher because we live in property rich towns.
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Old 10-01-2019, 06:00 PM   #49
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Brewster is a LOT more than that. I think Tuftonboro should leave Gov.Wentworth and join Moultonboro. Not sure how many students are in Tuftonboro though.
My Brewster reference was sort of tongue in cheek. It would be interesting seeing how many students there are in Tuftonboro. A consolidation could be a workable solution. Our taxpayers should zero in on the madcap spending by the schools. They never hear the word NO for any request. It makes much more sense to worry about runaway spending that a proposed assessment. JMO.
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Old 10-01-2019, 06:29 PM   #50
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My Brewster reference was sort of tongue in cheek. It would be interesting seeing how many students there are in Tuftonboro. A consolidation could be a workable solution. Our taxpayers should zero in on the madcap spending by the schools. They never hear the word NO for any request. It makes much more sense to worry about runaway spending that a proposed assessment. JMO.
I agree with you.
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Old 10-01-2019, 06:45 PM   #51
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Default Moultonborough assessor larceny

Years ago before Moultonborough had a high school, the kids did go to Kingswood Regional High School in Wolfeboro.
That’s a very long trip.
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Old 10-01-2019, 07:34 PM   #52
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Years ago before Moultonborough had a high school, the kids did go to Kingswood Regional High School in Wolfeboro.
That’s a very long trip.
They sure did!!
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:06 PM   #53
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I understand that the current cost per pupil in Moultonborough is $28,000. That’s a lot of dough. It’s been suggested that we should strike a deal with Brewster Academy. You should be able to get the actual $$ amount from the school, but they are reluctant, for obvious reasons, to give the costs.
Hi Sue, interesting idea, but more difficult than it might appear.

Brewster's a 501c3, so their financials are available online. Their costs, including boarding, are approximately $60-70K/student, which would likely equate to a number much higher than $28K without boarding.

Even trickier--Brewster only accepts 50% of applicants, and then sends virtually all of them to a four year college. With only 90 or so students per year, another 24 students accepted simply because they live in town would mess up their basic model.
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:21 PM   #54
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Hi Sue, interesting idea, but more difficult than it might appear.

Brewster's a 501c3, so their financials are available online. Their costs, including boarding, are approximately $60-70K/student, which would likely equate to a number much higher than $28K without boarding.

Even trickier--Brewster only accepts 50% of applicants, and then sends virtually all of them to a four year college. With only 90 or so students per year, another 24 students accepted simply because they live in town would mess up their basic model.
Hi Flying Scot, in a recent post, I admitted that my Brewster reference was not serious. However, it would be worthwhile pursuing consolidation with another school system, given our declining enrollment. However, if you’ve ever attended a meeting where this is broached, the parents tend to become unhinged. They prefer the status quo, everything local, despite the fact that a larger school district would probably be able to offer more choices in curriculum....and so it goes. People should definitely keep close attention to school expenditures, etc.
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:22 PM   #55
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Someone in power needs to look at this $28K/pupil spending plus all the spending for new new town building, new public safety building, new library, new public works building, proposals for town swimming pool, town senior center, ..... over that last few years. Surely there is someone fiscally responsible in government, that shows some fiscal responsibility and back bone, that can step in and stop the madness. No citizen protesting has been able to make a dent, so far. We citizens are just as disgusted as the out of stater's on this problem
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Old 10-02-2019, 05:48 AM   #56
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Someone in power needs to look at this $28K/pupil spending plus all the spending for new new town building, new public safety building, new library, new public works building, proposals for town swimming pool, town senior center, ..... over that last few years. Surely there is someone fiscally responsible in government, that shows some fiscal responsibility and back bone, that can step in and stop the madness. No citizen protesting has been able to make a dent, so far. We citizens are just as disgusted as the out of stater's on this problem
Citizens are disgusted privately but they don't make their voices heard in enough amounts to overcome the few voices that are very loud. It takes an organizer and a lot of people to show up at selectmen meetings to let them know how you feel. And even if you can't vote I believe they will listen if you get enough people.
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:01 AM   #57
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For all the griping, Moultonborough has close to the lowest tax rate in the state.

It also faces a blessing/cost/temptation. There is a LOT of expensive lake front land in town. That means the costs of the town are spread across LOTS of households squeezed in along the lake shore, distributing and keeping costs down. Even the high paying lake residents pay less in tax than they would in another town for an equivalent property and equivalent town spending. Meredith's tax rate for example is twice Moultonborough's, as are almost all other towns around the lake, i.e. twice as much tax to pay on an equivalent valuation.

The cost comes in when you consider that the population explodes in the summer and those summer folks DO consume town services. They use the library, the senior center, police and fire services, beat up the roads more, etc. The town has to pay for those services.

The temptation is that a local resident (not living on the lake) that wants a new service can pay $50 in taxes for it and the lake people will pay $250 in taxes. What a deal. When YOU don't pay the large portion of a bill, why not go BIG! If you could pay Toyota Corolla prices and get a Mercedes E-class and have someone else pay the difference, why not? It's a rather unique setup.

Yet, Moultonborough has close to the lowest tax rate in the state. The town spending is not an undue burden compared to the rest of the state.

It seems to me the question is one of fair assessment. Property values ARE rising. It is the blessing/curse of a robust economy and a desirable location to live. It is correct and legally required to have current evaluation on property. Raised valuation does not directly equate to raised tax paid. That depends on how YOUR property value currently compares to others in the town and changes in the town budget. It is likely the tax RATE will drop. Yes, NH relies heavily on property taxes. This should not be a surprise. And BTW, NH's overall tax burden is one of the lowest in the nation.

I'm not saying we shouldn't keep a watch on taxes and spending. I'm just saying we should keep things in perspective.
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:12 AM   #58
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For all the griping, Moultonborough has close to the lowest tax rate in the state.

It also faces a blessing/cost/temptation. There is a LOT of expensive lake front land in town. That means the costs of the town are spread across LOTS of households squeezed in along the lake shore, distributing and keeping costs down. Even the high paying lake residents pay less in tax than they would in another town for an equivalent property and equivalent town spending. Meredith's tax rate for example is twice Moultonborough's, as are almost all other towns around the lake, i.e. twice as much tax to pay on an equivalent valuation.

The cost comes in when you consider that the population explodes in the summer and those summer folks DO consume town services. They use the library, the senior center, police and fire services, beat up the roads more, etc. The town has to pay for those services.

The temptation is that a local resident (not living on the lake) that wants a new service can pay $50 in taxes for it and the lake people will pay $250 in taxes. What a deal. When YOU don't pay the large portion of a bill, why not go BIG! If you could pay Toyota Corolla prices and get a Mercedes E-class and have someone else pay the difference, why not? It's a rather unique setup.

Yet, Moultonborough has close to the lowest tax rate in the state. The town spending is not an undue burden compared to the rest of the state.

It seems to me the question is one of fair assessment. Property values ARE rising. It is the blessing/curse of a robust economy and a desirable location to live. It is correct and legally required to have current evaluation on property. Raised valuation does not directly equate to raised tax paid. That depends on how YOUR property value currently compares to others in the town and changes in the town budget. It is likely the tax RATE will drop. Yes, NH relies heavily on property taxes. This should not be a surprise. And BTW, NH's overall tax burden is one of the lowest in the nation.

I'm not saying we shouldn't keep a watch on taxes and spending. I'm just saying we should keep things in perspective.
I understand what you are saying, and don't disagree. What I do find problems with is the argument is that Mboro somehow has to catch up to the tax rate of other more out of control towns. Its like the towns fostering slab cities (trailer parks, with loads of school aid children) complaining they need money from other towns. They made their bed, so they should sleep in it. Just like I don't want M'boro to follow the over spending trends of others, so if the economy turns down, who will be holding the bag ? (the locals and the banks, lol)
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:23 AM   #59
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So if you live in a trailer park you don't deserve the same education as some one living in Moultonboro ?
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:32 AM   #60
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It's true I don't remember a year after a revaluation that the tax rate didn't go down. HOWEVER, in a few years, they spend more and the rate creeps up each year. It truly is all about spending. Somebody always wants more government services.
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:35 AM   #61
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So if you live in a trailer park you don't deserve the same education as some one living in Moultonboro ?
No, it means towns that don't plan ahead shouldn't expect other towns to make up the difference. Or, painting it with a broad brush, adopt socialism and abolish local town control. That is not the way this country is set up, so towns need to take responsibility for themselves, which begins with controlled spending.
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Old 10-02-2019, 08:07 AM   #62
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No, it means towns that don't plan ahead shouldn't expect other towns to make up the difference. Or, painting it with a broad brush, adopt socialism and abolish local town control. That is not the way this country is set up, so towns need to take responsibility for themselves, which begins with controlled spending.
Great response to pondguy... I would like to think he was kidding with his trailer park comment. It is up to all taxpayers who care about local government to be involved and to get in touch with their Selectboard members and those on the school board. The school budget is what gets really inflated; NO is not a word they hear. If you don’t want to approve everything,that means you’re against the children......seriously! The school parents are the ones pushing the new gym/rec center. Never mind that the need is questionable, and that the $6.5 million is just the beginning....the ongoing costs will be huge!
Sorry, folks....this turned into a rant...I will 🛑 for now.
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Old 10-02-2019, 08:16 AM   #63
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So children with poor parents in poor communities should be left behind ? No I was not kidding!
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Old 10-02-2019, 08:44 AM   #64
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So children with poor parents in poor communities should be left behind ? No I was not kidding!
Sue and I are talking about this from a A Priori point of view, you are trying to add in A Posteriori to the mix, which I don't want to get dragged down with.

If I did, I might want ask how those "poor" communities became poor.
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:11 AM   #65
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So children with poor parents in poor communities should be left behind ? No I was not kidding!
There are plenty of “poor” children in this community, families needing public assistance, and these families have the full support of our residents, as they should. They are receiving the same education as all the other students. That does not mean that Moultonborough should have to share our revenue with other towns. In the past, recipient communities bragged about using donor town funds (us) for other than education. Now...how does that sit with you?
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Old 10-02-2019, 08:39 AM   #66
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I understand what you are saying, and don't disagree. What I do find problems with is the argument is that Mboro somehow has to catch up to the tax rate of other more out of control towns. Its like the towns fostering slab cities (trailer parks, with loads of school aid children) complaining they need money from other towns. They made their bed, so they should sleep in it. Just like I don't want M'boro to follow the over spending trends of others, so if the economy turns down, who will be holding the bag ? (the locals and the banks, lol)
I agree that spending should always be monitored.

And believe me, I have major problems with the school system, not just here but across the nation. It has been polluted with school administration bureaucracy that never quite seems to improve the education of our children no matter how much money is poured into it.

Yet, Moultonborough, for better or worse, is a land wealthy town. If you were at a job paying $40,000 a year and you completed college and a dream job at $80,000 a year was offered to you, don't you think you might upgrade your lifestyle? You would be OK to upgrade the schools for your kids? Better house and cars? An uptick in the clothes you wear? Going out to a really nice, and expensive restaurant now and then? A snazzy vacation?

So I think it is reasonable for Moultonborough's goals to perhaps reach a little higher than the average town and, with careful consideration, accept the burden of paying for it.

There will always be people eager to spend other people's money on any nifty idea that comes into their heads. Those spendthrifts must be resisted. And of course it must be recognized that while the town is wealthy, not everyone in it is and due consideration should be given to the impact on them of any additional spending.
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Old 10-02-2019, 07:10 AM   #67
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So I just got my new "proposed" assessment and my land value magically increased by 16.5%. our property is waterfront. I checked our neighborhood and EVERYONE'S land increased by 16.5% if on the water. I then checked other waterfront in Moultonboro and apparently ALL waterfront has increased by the same %. WOW. Amazing how all properties in one town can increase by the same % across the board!

This strikes me as nothing but a huge money grab by the town and property owners must show their outrage.

I will be appealing but I suspect I know the outcome...
typically when that happens the tax rate per thousand will decrease.
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Old 10-02-2019, 09:56 AM   #68
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As a teacher, I think it's not only reasonable to keep an eye on school budgets but necessary. In fifteen years, I've seen money spent on many things that ultimately don't benefit the kids (administrator bloat mentioned above, for example) but that might "look good." $28k a year, if accurate, is very high, but that clearly would be a result of the costs being split between a low number of students.

In the end, the question would have to revolve around the benefits of the current system vs. the drawbacks of combining with other towns. I'd give an arm to have fewer than 30 kids in each of my English courses, so the costs may potentially worth it (assuming positive outcomes, of course).

Side note: I also think it's important that we don't immediately condemn people who question, either in politics or in finances, but often that's where things go and real change stops.

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Old 10-02-2019, 11:15 AM   #69
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Not sure how this went to a discussion of schools. Because there are many things that Moultonborough spends money on, not just education.

Given the population I have never understood, whey there isn't a regional school system, for Moultonborough and surrounding towns. But be that as it may... Lets look at other things in the town.....

Number of employees at the dump....
Number of full time police officers....(don't know if this is a concern or not)
Pay of town administrative staff......
Number of DPW staff.....
State of Police, Fire, and DPW equipment and vehicles....

My point is simple, overall I wouldn't blame the need for higher taxes, solely on education. There are many area's that would need to be looked at to understand the financial situation of the town.

My Main argument for the valuation of property, is that the valuations seem to be getting unreasonable again..... some odd years ago, our tax valuation got north of 700K, over time it back down to just over 500K, and now this year it is jumping back to 650K.... I understand it is waterfront, and the camp that is on it isn't worth that much... But at the same time, I feel like the value of land in NH is modified for tax purposes to be what ever the towns need, to achieve what they need. In Moultonbough the need is to keep one of the lowest property tax rates in the state.......
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Old 10-02-2019, 11:44 AM   #70
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Want to get upset.....look at the Moultonborough teachers contract and all the perks that are built in....insurance, computers, etc, etc. Nobody cares....
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Old 10-02-2019, 12:12 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tummyman View Post
Want to get upset.....look at the Moultonborough teachers contract and all the perks that are built in....insurance, computers, etc, etc. Nobody cares....
How about the taxpayer-sponsored trip to Senegal for the little darlings?

In response to a question regarding local taxes, the current millage rate is
7.72 per 1000 assessed value:
2.44. Town
1.23 County. Mboro pays about 25% of total
1.95. Local education
2.10. State education fund
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Old 10-02-2019, 02:46 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tummyman View Post
Want to get upset.....look at the Moultonborough teachers contract and all the perks that are built in....insurance, computers, etc, etc. Nobody cares....
Here's a link to the contract: https://www.nh.gov/pelrb/collective/...gh_school4.pdf

I'm not sure that's the hill you wanna die on.

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Old 10-02-2019, 03:11 PM   #73
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Link to Gov. Wentworth teacher, administrative and support staff salaries:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FWA...h-4_khW8y/view
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Old 10-02-2019, 04:12 PM   #74
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Quote:
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Link to Gov. Wentworth teacher, administrative and support staff salaries:
Not very friendly of you--nobody likes their salary publicized, and these folks are not exactly corporate fat cats who might "deserve" the attention
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Old 10-02-2019, 04:32 PM   #75
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Really? We pay their salary and they know when they take the job it is made public.
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Old 10-02-2019, 04:57 PM   #76
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Want to know how much those guys on North Woods Law make (and the rest of the government)?

https://business.nh.gov/paytransparency/
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