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Old 08-08-2018, 08:48 PM   #1
mishman
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Default Ok, what can you do to the lake bottom?

Watched an excavator on a barge dredge a deeper channel for a boat to get to his dock today. Created all kinds of silt (no silt barriers in place). When the barge left with heaps of bottom sand/sludge on its deck, when he got out to deep water he dumped it by using the shovel to side swap it off the deck. Took fifteen or twenty swipes so it was very noticeable.

So the question is, is this really legal? Assume they had a permit to dig a deeper channel but no silt barriers? And to dump in a deep spot in the lake. Just seemed like it was a 1950s thing to do. But I could be wrong. This is, after all, New Hampshire.
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:20 AM   #2
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It seems to me that if it was material that came from the lake then it would be legal to put it back in the lake as long as they had a permit to dredge, not sure about silt barriers.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:30 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishman View Post
Watched an excavator on a barge dredge a deeper channel for a boat to get to his dock today. Created all kinds of silt (no silt barriers in place). When the barge left with heaps of bottom sand/sludge on its deck, when he got out to deep water he dumped it by using the shovel to side swap it off the deck. Took fifteen or twenty swipes so it was very noticeable.

So the question is, is this really legal? Assume they had a permit to dig a deeper channel but no silt barriers? And to dump in a deep spot in the lake. Just seemed like it was a 1950s thing to do. But I could be wrong. This is, after all, New Hampshire.
Not legal. Turbidity booms sufficient to achieve containment of plume are required. No they can't just dump material back in the lake.

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Old 08-09-2018, 08:51 AM   #4
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I had obtained a dredge permit a few years ago via one of the marine contractors. The permit was quite specific about the amount of material that could be dredged, and was also quite specific that the material had to be removed and taken away off site via truck. The use of silt booms was also required.
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:00 AM   #5
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Great way to possibly spread weeds etc................
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishman View Post
Watched an excavator on a barge dredge a deeper channel for a boat to get to his dock today. Created all kinds of silt (no silt barriers in place). When the barge left with heaps of bottom sand/sludge on its deck, when he got out to deep water he dumped it by using the shovel to side swap it off the deck. Took fifteen or twenty swipes so it was very noticeable.

So the question is, is this really legal? Assume they had a permit to dig a deeper channel but no silt barriers? And to dump in a deep spot in the lake. Just seemed like it was a 1950s thing to do. But I could be wrong. This is, after all, New Hampshire.
Perhaps the original poster should contact said neighbor and contractor, get names and forward to Shore Things (or the correct organization) for appropriate action?
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:28 PM   #7
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Default reporting activity

The name of the company was Northern _________, I should have taken a picture. Anyone know this company. Will try attach picture of their rig from a distance - no close ups were taken. Not sure I want to tell on my neighbor but this struck me as not exactly legal.Name:  IMG_2448.jpg
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:31 PM   #8
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Thing with ratting on your neighbors is you better make sure you do everything perfect and by the book too. Which we all do of course.
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:18 PM   #9
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Any chance this is the same guy? This was August 6, 2018. We'd really appreciate any photos and information you can provide.
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:11 PM   #10
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Arrow Holy Moly!

I recognize the Wolfeboro Airpark in the background.

They'd taken down a perfectly good boathouse to house an oversized boat, which can be seen at a mooring directly offshore from the barge.

I took some photos two days later. When I showed up with a camera, two guys appeared suddenly, cranked up a chainsaw and got busy.

The same outfit had just installed a new dock near me-- the same one that gets taken out by ice every winter. I'd featured them earlier here, suggesting that large and dangerous lake debris is shed from barges.

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Old 08-09-2018, 07:32 PM   #11
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Default not the location

The incident occurred in Moultonborough. Anyone know of a dock company whose first name is Northern? Can't recall the second name.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:00 PM   #12
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Default Could it have been Northeast???

Quote:
Originally Posted by mishman View Post
The incident occurred in Moultonborough. Anyone know of a dock company whose first name is Northern? Can't recall the second name.
http://www.nedockandbarge.com/
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:38 PM   #13
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I don't think it's those guys. It's a new contractor, I've seen the barge a few times I think think it says Northern something. I would suspect NE Dock & Barge knows better
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:58 PM   #14
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Arrow Aerial: Note the Location and Size of the Only Moored Boat...

Quote:
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The incident occurred in Moultonborough. Anyone know of a dock company whose first name is Northern? Can't recall the second name.
Then we have two incidents.

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The Wolfeboro dock to my right was a total-rebuild by a barge marked, "Northeast Dock & Barge". (Photo previously posted here last week). I'd pixilated the name!

My vantage point from shore allowed me to see only one engine, and that engine was black in color.

The Wolfeboro boathouse to my left, presently starting a major rebuild with a huge rock crib, had the barge pictured below—with two black engines.

Several days ago, the rock cribs that were to make the new foundation had been stored to the right of the barge. By yesterday, they'd been moved—perhaps to surround the new dredging.

Since the only other commonality was a rusty roof, I can't say that it was the same barge.

This barge didn't leave last weekend, so there's a good chance it will be there this coming weekend, too.

.
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Last edited by ApS; 08-09-2018 at 10:37 PM. Reason: Add A Photo of the Guilty Boat...
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:04 AM   #15
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Default Winter Harbor

Winter Harbor. I recognize the moored boat.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:54 PM   #16
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Not for nothing but it seems this would be easy to track down.

If you know where the work was done contact the landowner. Cross reference this against a pulled permit assuming one has been. From there find out from the landowner who they hired.

I don't think on a public forum it's very nice to speculate who did the work as if the wrong person or business is incorrectly accused it could adversely affect their livelihood. I'm all for letting everyone know if there is a contractor out there doing it wrong but only after this is a proven fact and not speculation. What some may perceive as "wrong" may very well be OK under certain circumstances. Clearly in at least the pic posted by ShoreThings - who happens to be the resident expert on this kind of stuff, that seems obvious but I'd still defer any judgments as to what is going on that is supposedly "illegal" to those that are in the know so to speak.

That said it's good there are those out there paying attention to this sort of thing, the lake as a whole needs to be cared for by all especially contractors who often times work unsupervised so any nefarious activity should be pointed out to the appropriate authorities for further action if it is so warranted.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:27 PM   #17
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I believe that if the owner had the work done, and it was done illegally, he/she/they are as responsible as the contractor (at least for not using siltation screens) and are liable for fines. How cooperative would you expect them to be?


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Old 08-10-2018, 01:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy View Post
I believe that if the owner had the work done, and it was done illegally, he/she/they are as responsible as the contractor (at least for not using siltation screens) and are liable for fines. How cooperative would you expect them to be?


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Agreed. The original poster however does know the exact address and the owner. I understand he doesn't want to have an issue with his neighbor but to me the health of the lake and reporting illegal activity is more important than a civil relationship with the neighbor.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy View Post
I believe that if the owner had the work done, and it was done illegally, he/she/they are as responsible as the contractor (at least for not using siltation screens) and are liable for fines. How cooperative would you expect them to be?


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People tend to get a little more cooperative if they are staring at a hefty fine where if the contractor is identified passes some of that financial hit on them.

Far as it being a neighbor, I wouldn't say a word to them or confront them about it - just contact DES and let them investigate and handle it.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:55 PM   #20
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Default Saw a barge today...

At the entrance to Weirs Channel with a name that began with North...Maybe Northender or something. It's doing work on the new house with the floating palapas in front.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:14 PM   #21
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While owners are legally responsible for the work done by the contractors they hire this does not mean that owners necessarily hired a contractor with the intent that the contractor would violate the law. Frequently, the owner is not at their lake residence while the work is being done so they might never see the water quality violation that could occur. They trust that they have hired professionals and that things will done properly. This doesn't mean there aren't owners out there that have insisted on completing things in an illegal manner, I have met a few, experience has shown them to be the exception. As for things that may or may not be violations here are some things to keep in mind.

Much of our purpose is to protect water quality. Therefore permits for permanent structure work and dredge will typically have a condition requiring the containment of turbidity through the duration of the project. This usually means installing curtains around the project. The curtain boom is visible above the water while weights are supposed to keep it in contact with the lake bed. We recognize and take into consideration that even the best turbidity controls can be overwhelmed in a violent storm or wind event. However if a project generates turbidity, failure to install any controls at all will always be considered a violation.

As recently as the early 1990s it was possible for a contractor to have a permit that would allow them to dispose of individual rocks in deep water. It should be noted that this was specifically for rocks and was never allowed for general dredge spoils or other debris. This is no longer allowed at all. Nothing should be being pushed off a barge into the lake as a means of disposal. Among the factors that figured into this change in what is allowed were concerns about turbidity, spread of invasive species, an inability to monitor what exactly was being pushed of the barge and whether or not debris, trash, or contaminants were being mixed in, someone accidently dropping a really big rock on a wreck site, and habitat loss. To address the habitat loss issue, the Department changed the standard permitting conditions from allowing deep water rock disposal to requiring the relocation of rocks removed to nearby locations of similar depth where they will not pose a navigational risk. Again, this shift happened 1990s. Dredge spoils are to be dewatered and removed from the lake. Only large rocks and boulders are relocated to preserve habitat.

BTW this should not be taken as an indictment of all contractors. Most try to do the right thing. Honest mistakes can be made. Every population has its outliers...
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:17 PM   #22
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Default neighbor who is a state politician.

Got permission from a former governor for a 'land grant' to build a land berm off his property to #1 provide an access to deep water for a dock and #2 capture sand for a sandy beach. The capturing of sand for the beach made my dock ineffective as the sand built up and made my dock unusable. Took it to court and guess what. It's perfectly legit!

This happened back in the early '90's. Wish I could contest this now!
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:40 PM   #23
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Default This one?

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Originally Posted by garysanfran View Post
At the entrance to Weirs Channel with a name that began with North...Maybe Northender or something. It's doing work on the new house with the floating palapas in front.
is this the one in question?
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:20 PM   #24
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Default Bingo, this is the outfit

This is definitely the outfit I saw doing the work without a silt fence and dumping sand and mud in the middle of the lake. No doubt about it.
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:15 PM   #25
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Arrow Regarding "Dredge Plume" Number 2...

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Originally Posted by MAXUM View Post
Not for nothing but it seems this would be easy to track down. If you know where the work was done contact the landowner. Cross reference this against a pulled permit assuming one has been. From there find out from the landowner who they hired. I don't think on a public forum it's very nice to speculate who did the work as if the wrong person or business is incorrectly accused it could adversely affect their livelihood. I'm all for letting everyone know if there is a contractor out there doing it wrong but only after this is a proven fact and not speculation. What some may perceive as "wrong" may very well be OK under certain circumstances. Clearly in at least the pic posted by ShoreThings - who happens to be the resident expert on this kind of stuff, that seems obvious but I'd still defer any judgments as to what is going on that is supposedly "illegal" to those that are in the know so to speak. That said it's good there are those out there paying attention to this sort of thing, the lake as a whole needs to be cared for by all especially contractors who often times work unsupervised so any nefarious activity should be pointed out to the appropriate authorities for further action if it is so warranted.
Quote:
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Any chance this is the same guy? This was August 6, 2018. We'd really appreciate any photos and information you can provide.
This (at the arrow), looks like it could be a permit.

Does DES just walk up and inspect it?

>
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Old 08-12-2018, 07:31 AM   #26
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DES can talk all about turbidity, but they totally ignore the problems caused by the wake boats in coves. Turbidity happens every day but DES looks the other way. These wake boats are a major problem, but not for DES! Just selective enforcement against property owners but not others causing real problems.
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:34 AM   #27
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If you have a sandy bottom that has been compromised with silt and leaves by stirring up the water there is a way to clean it. I use this method at my house, not because of marine construction but due to the fact that my bay is now a no wake zone and I don'r get the wave action to clean the sandy bottom and the west wind blows leaves and silt my way.
I have a roof rake with that extends to around 25'
I start my boat and make sure the drive is trimmed straight back which starts a good currant Then, starting at the boat, I walk along the shore
stirring up the bottom with the rake and it cleans it right down to the sand.
Not to play devils advocate, but you could tie your boat in such a way as to direct all that material right back at your neighbor
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Old 08-12-2018, 11:29 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tummyman View Post
DES can talk all about turbidity, but they totally ignore the problems caused by the wake boats in coves. Turbidity happens every day but DES looks the other way. These wake boats are a major problem, but not for DES! Just selective enforcement against property owners but not others causing real problems.
Tummyman,

As we posted in our recent erosion thread, we'd love to get photos, locations, and any other evidence if you have it. If it's too difficult to photograph, we'd like the exact location and your advice on how to capture proof. We will incorporate into our action plans to improve water quality for the lake. Please post here or PM us.

Thanks,

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Old 08-13-2018, 02:30 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMIAM View Post
If you have a sandy bottom that has been compromised with silt and leaves by stirring up the water there is a way to clean it. I use this method at my house, not because of marine construction but due to the fact that my bay is now a no wake zone and I don'r get the wave action to clean the sandy bottom and the west wind blows leaves and silt my way.
I have a roof rake with that extends to around 25'
I start my boat and make sure the drive is trimmed straight back which starts a good currant Then, starting at the boat, I walk along the shore
stirring up the bottom with the rake and it cleans it right down to the sand.
Not to play devils advocate, but you could tie your boat in such a way as to direct all that material right back at your neighbor
Based on above posts, this doesn't seem any more proper than dumping silt or spoil off a barge.
I know people who did this years ago and later found their boat/motor cooling system full of sand and pebbles. The reduced water flow led to overheating and big repair bills.
If you overload a barge, it settles in the water and water may seep in between boards that are not fully swollen/watertight. If your pumps can't keep up, there is a lot of pressure to offload weight (rocks/sand) to get more freeboard. Is this a better choice than letting the barge sink with diesel fuel and heavy equipment on board? Rhetorical question. Not to start a side discussion, or an excuse for overloading by mistake or intent. You still have to pay the fine. To me, impounding the barge/crane for a period of time would be more effective than a few thousand dollars in fines.
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Old 08-13-2018, 05:30 PM   #30
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Not sure I understand your point.

All of the barges I know of on the lake are steel, not wood. There is no chance of seepage and they are watertight already.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:10 AM   #31
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I've seen many wooden barges over the years, but you may be right on current construction
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Old Yesterday, 07:30 AM   #32
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Arrow Two Different [Alleged] Offenders...

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Originally Posted by shore things View Post
Any chance this is the same guy? This was August 6, 2018. We'd really appreciate any photos and information you can provide.
See below...

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Originally Posted by Formula260SS View Post
I don't think it's those guys. It's a new contractor, I've seen the barge a few times I think think it says Northern something.
I would suspect NE Dock & Barge knows better
Nope.

My spies tell me it's Northeast Dock & Barge.

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Old Yesterday, 04:05 PM   #33
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We have already identified and contacted the parties involved in both incidents. Thank you to everyone who took a moment to try to provide assistance.
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