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Old 08-18-2021, 09:14 AM   #1
Swimwithamission
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Default Home Owners Associations (HOA's)

There are many Home Owners Associations (HOA’s) that exist in New Hampshire, with many located in the Lakes Region. Quite a few of these HOA’s were formed in the 60s & 70's using rules and guidelines of New Hampshire RSA 292 – Non Profit Corporations. These rules never took “common property” such as docks and other amenities into consideration, therefore they did not contain protections for “equal access”. These rules are also weak in the areas of fiduciary responsibilities, transparency, and access to HOA financial records by its members. This allows HOA Boards of Directors to abuse their positions with little recourse from their members. This can result in having to litigate simple requests like access to financial records or equal access to “Common Property”.

Condominium Associations are afforded these protections under existing Condominium Law. It is time HOA Members got the same protections.

Are you a member of an HOA in New Hampshire that has issues in the areas of:

• Equal and fair access to common property such as docks?
• Lack of transparency in spending and bidding of work?
• Lack of access to HOA financial records and expenses?
• Board of Directors changing covenants without member input or voting?

Please provide your association name and a contact (Direct Message) if you would like to be included, updated or contribute to ongoing work to have the New Hampshire legislature create HOA specific laws.

Thanks!
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Old 08-18-2021, 10:13 AM   #2
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Is there a particular or specific current problem with a certain condo association or is this just a solicitation for business and support?

Just askin'
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Old 08-18-2021, 06:19 PM   #3
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Usually a disgruntled new owner who does not want to wait in line for a dock or slip starts these threads. I waited over 20yrs. to gain access to a slip.
All around our HOA the newbies just want to blow it up, hoping that they can have a slip NOW, thinking four years is enough of a wait. Some propose a raffle or lottery, without thinking if you have a slot for two yrs. and lose a third yr. lottery... What happens ??? Some folk no longer have even trailers. Short term thinking has infected far too many.
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Old 08-19-2021, 06:54 AM   #4
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I understand it is exactly that, someone who wants to change the rules of the association they bought into. I know which association but will respectfully leave that out.

Anyone buying a property should obviously attempt to learn know as much as they can about it, prior to purchasing. However, making changes after the fact will pose a legal jeopardy.

If something changes, and I understand in this case it is the stipulations for boat slip allocation, you may end up taking a slip away from someone who has it under the current rules. That would diminish their value and be a cause for legal action by the person losing the slip.

You buy in with certain rights and obligations and changing them, even with a majority vote, can add to your problems.
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Old 08-19-2021, 07:04 AM   #5
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Pretty common thread in society these days. Many think they have or should have “rights” they don’t have. You don’t have look much further than watching the news to see it….
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Old 08-19-2021, 07:32 AM   #6
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My HOA changed the rules for beach pole access a few years ago. Originally, it was a 3-year lottery or something, but since the fees go back into the association and people weren't reliably paying the fees, the BOD moved to an "ownership" model where as long as the current "owner" follows the registration and payment rules, s/he continues to have it.

I accept that that means new owners may have to wait a few years to have access (as we were willing to do when we bought some years ago), but I think it's much more beneficial overall.

Were I buying into a larger association, like Suissevale or LSP—where the dock/mooring waits are much longer—I would take those rules into consideration when looking at the whole of my purchase.

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Old 08-19-2021, 07:35 AM   #7
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They have been pushing that in Suissevale for the last few years, just a vocal minority. A rotating lottery would make no sense if I lose it every other year or every third year. What would I do in the off year? I don't even have a trailer for it. I have a prime slip at Ambrose, I would never get that back if I gave it up. If I lost my slip every few years, it's not like I could go just go back and get another slip for that year. I hear the waiting list is a mile long for a slip there. No Thank you.
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Old 08-19-2021, 07:50 AM   #8
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Default Suissevale

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They have been pushing that in Suissevale for the last few years, just a vocal minority. A rotating lottery would make no sense if I lose it every other year or every third year. What would I do in the off year? I don't even have a trailer for it. I have a prime slip at Ambrose, I would never get that back if I gave it up. If I lost my slip every few years, it's not like I could go just go back and get another slip for that year. I hear the waiting list is a mile long for a slip there. No Thank you.
We have had a place in Suissevale for 17 years. We will never see a dock. The problem at Suissevale is two-fold- that they have allowed dock holders to stay in control of their docks even after ownership changed (from an owner to a family trust) and the fee is ridiculously low so there is no incentive to give them up.

We also have a slip in Ambrose Cove, but at 4X the cost of a Suissevale dock.
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Old 08-19-2021, 07:57 AM   #9
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We have had a place in Suissevale for 17 years. We will never see a dock. The problem at Suissevale is two-fold- that they have allowed dock holders to stay in control of their docks even after ownership changed (from an owner to a family trust) and the fee is ridiculously low so there is no incentive to give them up.

We also have a slip in Ambrose Cove, but at 4X the cost of a Suissevale dock.
Yeah I don't like what they do with passing it down to family members, I have been there 10yrs and I will never see a slip either.
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Old 08-19-2021, 08:28 AM   #10
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We have had a place in Suissevale for 17 years. We will never see a dock. The problem at Suissevale is two-fold- that they have allowed dock holders to stay in control of their docks even after ownership changed (from an owner to a family trust) and the fee is ridiculously low so there is no incentive to give them up.

We also have a slip in Ambrose Cove, but at 4X the cost of a Suissevale dock.
Passing it down through the family is pretty crazy. At our HOA, it's connected to the owner/registration and if that changes, it's released to the next person on the list. We're much smaller than Suissevale—150 vs. ?—and it's only a couple years or so long at this point.

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Old 08-20-2021, 03:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by TiltonBB View Post
Is there a particular or specific current problem with a certain condo association or is this just a solicitation for business and support?

Just askin'
This is not a solicitation for business, just looking for input on issues going on at other HOA's in the state.
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Old 08-20-2021, 03:22 PM   #12
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Pretty common thread in society these days. Many think they have or should have “rights” they don’t have. You don’t have look much further than watching the news to see it….
That is the issue with HOA's in New Hampshire, pay your dues and get little or no member rights including:

• Lack of transparency in spending and bidding of work.
• Lack of access to HOA financial records and expenses.
• Board of Directors changing covenants without member input or voting.
• Lack of Fiduciary responsibility of BOD member(s).
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Old 08-20-2021, 03:30 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Swimwithamission View Post
That is the issue with HOA's in New Hampshire, pay your dues and get little or no member rights including:

• Lack of transparency in spending and bidding of work.
• Lack of access to HOA financial records and expenses.
• Board of Directors changing covenants without member input or voting.
• Lack of Fiduciary responsibility of BOD member(s).
To your list I would add the overarching issue of people within a given HOA not sharing a common set of values and decision criteria on maintenance and other spending. If you knew you'd agree with the Board 80-90%, you wouldn't care about the other stuff
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Old 08-20-2021, 04:04 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Swimwithamission View Post
That is the issue with HOA's in New Hampshire, pay your dues and get little or no member rights including:

• Lack of transparency in spending and bidding of work.
• Lack of access to HOA financial records and expenses.
• Board of Directors changing covenants without member input or voting.
• Lack of Fiduciary responsibility of BOD member(s).
Usually, I'd expect that these issues ould be looked at before buying. Caveat Emptor. I'm part of one HOA that was a start up when we bought, so no history to look at. The first several years were a little rough and we changed management companies more than once. The struggle comes when the BoD wants to do too much themselves, does a poor job and then tries to hide it all.
When they start saying' We can do all that ourselves and save money" It's time for new management and a new BoD and probably an increase in fees.
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Old 08-20-2021, 09:31 PM   #15
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This is not a solicitation for business, just looking for input on issues going on at other HOA's in the state.
Good to know. So this has nothing to do with your not being eligible to get a boat slip and wanting to change the rules of the association you bought into?

Right?

Right?
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Old 08-21-2021, 12:09 PM   #16
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We have had a place in Suissevale for 17 years. We will never see a dock. The problem at Suissevale is two-fold- that they have allowed dock holders to stay in control of their docks even after ownership changed (from an owner to a family trust) and the fee is ridiculously low so there is no incentive to give them up.

We also have a slip in Ambrose Cove, but at 4X the cost of a Suissevale dock.
I can see it staying with the property, but are you saying people sell their properties and keep the docks? Pretty sure that doesn't pass the smell test.
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Old 08-21-2021, 01:07 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Swimwithamission View Post
There are many Home Owners Associations (HOA’s) that exist in New Hampshire, with many located in the Lakes Region. Quite a few of these HOA’s were formed in the 60s & 70's using rules and guidelines of New Hampshire RSA 292 – Non Profit Corporations. These rules never took “common property” such as docks and other amenities into consideration, therefore they did not contain protections for “equal access”. These rules are also weak in the areas of fiduciary responsibilities, transparency, and access to HOA financial records by its members. This allows HOA Boards of Directors to abuse their positions with little recourse from their members. This can result in having to litigate simple requests like access to financial records or equal access to “Common Property”.

Condominium Associations are afforded these protections under existing Condominium Law. It is time HOA Members got the same protections.

Are you a member of an HOA in New Hampshire that has issues in the areas of:

• Equal and fair access to common property such as docks?
• Lack of transparency in spending and bidding of work?
• Lack of access to HOA financial records and expenses?
• Board of Directors changing covenants without member input or voting?

Please provide your association name and a contact (Direct Message) if you would like to be included, updated or contribute to ongoing work to have the New Hampshire legislature create HOA specific laws.

Thanks!

So you expect that the legislature\government can fix the very same problems it suffers from?

HOAs like the government have a captive audience and the legal authority to make members comply.
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Old 08-21-2021, 01:32 PM   #18
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"New Hampshire Community Association Law

Homeowners’ associations in New Hampshire are not governed by any specific regulations. There are Condominium Rules and a Condominium Act but neither apply directly to HOAs. All community associations must be registered as corporations, most choose to file as Voluntary Corporations, and are therefore subject to Chapter 292 of the New Hampshire Statutes regarding Voluntary Corporations and Associations.

Since there are no formal government acts regarding the management of HOAs, rules can vary drastically between communities. HOAs have the freedom to create and enforce as many or as few regulations as they desire as long as no state or federal laws are violated. Typically, homeowners will sign a contract to join the homeowners’ association upon purchase of property within a common interest community. After that, they are legally bound to follow all regulations set forth by the association."


https://clarksimsonmiller.com/new-ha...d-regulations/
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Old 08-21-2021, 08:02 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Swimwithamission View Post
That is the issue with HOA's in New Hampshire, pay your dues and get little or no member rights including:

• Lack of transparency in spending and bidding of work.
• Lack of access to HOA financial records and expenses.
• Board of Directors changing covenants without member input or voting.
• Lack of Fiduciary responsibility of BOD member(s).
All depends on what you buy into. When I looked into Associations back in ‘01 I quickly determined any association that didn’t provide me with deeded dock was out. Took work but we found several and were lucky enuff to get in one.
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Old 08-22-2021, 12:05 AM   #20
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I can see it staying with the property, but are you saying people sell their properties and keep the docks? Pretty sure that doesn't pass the smell test.
No, the original homeowner, who has a dock, puts their house into trust which means the dock never goes back into the pool pool of available docks. Docks at Suissevale are owned by the HOA. Going into trust is effectively an ownership change IMO but that is not how Suissevale sees it!
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Old 08-22-2021, 08:37 AM   #21
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No, the original homeowner, who has a dock, puts their house into trust which means the dock never goes back into the pool pool of available docks. Docks at Suissevale are owned by the HOA. Going into trust is effectively an ownership change IMO but that is not how Suissevale sees it!
This is an interesting, complex issue. A homeowner who is, say, 50 years old, might decide to put his home into a trust as part of his estate planning. His plan is to continue to control and use the home as before. He dies 40 years later and his kids continue the family tradition of using the house for another 30 years, then pass it to their kids....

The original transfer into the trust is a change in ownership legally, but not in the day to day reality of what's going on. Your real complaint is not until the guy dies 40 years later. But of course, there is no ownership change at that point. Basically, Suissevale has given the docks to families in perpetuity

I'm guessing the trust transfer is OK because the HOA views it as a related entity? The original homeowner would not be allowed to sell to an unrelated party?
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Old 08-22-2021, 04:55 PM   #22
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Good to know. So this has nothing to do with your not being eligible to get a boat slip and wanting to change the rules of the association you bought into?

Right?

Right?
Nope, I do not own a boat or want a dock. That is is why I listed several other issues.

The list of issues is more encompassing than what I listed, and several other issues have come up and been mentioned.

Do you have anything relevant to offer to the discussion?
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Old 08-22-2021, 08:58 PM   #23
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READ THE DOCUMENTS.

Before buying. Many of us just don't read the documents.

Whether leasing an automobile or buying into a condo association.

In reality, best to take all to an attorney and have all explained. But who does that ?
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Old 08-23-2021, 08:46 AM   #24
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The answer is simple: run for election to the Board. Once on the Board push your ideas for change and push other like thinkers to run for election to the Board.

I always thought this was the democratic way. Now, it has become: sue and if you don’t win, sue again.


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Old 08-23-2021, 08:52 AM   #25
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Default Hoa

It seems that as the state has a condo law they should provide the same level of protection to HOA owners we pay taxes too.
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Old 08-23-2021, 01:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Real BigGuy View Post
The answer is simple: run for election to the Board. Once on the Board push your ideas for change and push other like thinkers to run for election to the Board.

I always thought this was the democratic way. Now, it has become: sue and if you don’t win, sue again.


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If we are talking Suissevale and its the same group of people, they do run every year and lose, sometimes by quite a bit.
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Old 08-23-2021, 03:05 PM   #27
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If we are talking Suissevale and its the same group of people, they do run every year and lose, sometimes by quite a bit.
It is Suissevale and it's the same group. It's like a broken record and they're constantly casting a gray cloud over a very awesome and well run association.
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Old 08-23-2021, 09:57 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
This is an interesting, complex issue. A homeowner who is, say, 50 years old, might decide to put his home into a trust as part of his estate planning. His plan is to continue to control and use the home as before. He dies 40 years later and his kids continue the family tradition of using the house for another 30 years, then pass it to their kids....

The original transfer into the trust is a change in ownership legally, but not in the day to day reality of what's going on. Your real complaint is not until the guy dies 40 years later. But of course, there is no ownership change at that point. Basically, Suissevale has given the docks to families in perpetuity

I'm guessing the trust transfer is OK because the HOA views it as a related entity? The original homeowner would not be allowed to sell to an unrelated party?
That exactly the issue! It is tricky.
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Old 08-26-2021, 08:08 AM   #29
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It is Suissevale and it's the same group. It's like a broken record and they're constantly casting a gray cloud over a very awesome and well run association.
A couple of years ago the BOD spent over $150,000 drilling a test well on a community owned parcel, and then tried to secure a $1.2 million bank loan to build a community well & pump house using community assets as collateral. As it turns out, the wells were going to be located in an area that some waterfront homeowners have septic easements on. These homeowners were approached after the fact and asked to release these easements. They said NO, scuttling the project. Also, during the bank financing application process it came up that the bank felt that the BOD does not have the right to sign for loans on behalf of the membership and rejected the loan (costing $4K+ in lost application fees). It turns out that a 2/3 majority membership vote is required before the BOD can take out mortgages using Suissevale assets as collateral. After this decision the BOD tried to change the bylaws to allow them to do this, and they were pressured into rescinding their positive vote since again, they did not have the membership vote on the bylaw changes. Community money was wasted, and the BOD seems to think they can make these types of unilateral decisions with no member input. The entire process was seemingly brushed under the carpet and many members are not aware that it happened.
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Old 08-26-2021, 08:42 AM   #30
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A couple of years ago the BOD spent over $150,000 drilling a test well on a community owned parcel, and then tried to secure a $1.2 million bank loan to build a community well & pump house using community assets as collateral. As it turns out, the wells were going to be located in an area that some waterfront homeowners have septic easements on. These homeowners were approached after the fact and asked to release these easements. They said NO, scuttling the project. Also, during the bank financing application process it came up that the bank felt that the BOD does not have the right to sign for loans on behalf of the membership and rejected the loan (costing $4K+ in lost application fees). It turns out that a 2/3 majority membership vote is required before the BOD can take out mortgages using Suissevale assets as collateral. After this decision the BOD tried to change the bylaws to allow them to do this, and they were pressured into rescinding their positive vote since again, they did not have the membership vote on the bylaw changes. Community money was wasted, and the BOD seems to think they can make these types of unilateral decisions with no member input. The entire process was seemingly brushed under the carpet and many members are not aware that it happened.
You do realize this was broadcasted at each meeting during the process and the project was sought out for the benefit of the members understanding the water expense is the largest cost in the budget, correct? You act like the BOD was attempting to do something that was for self interest when reality was they were seeking a long term alternative to CONTINUE providing water to members as part of the annual dues, which is nominal itself. One of the largest benefits of being in Suissevale is not having metered water and having Suissevale foot the cost. Go look at the P&L and the budget which is available to everyone despite what Jim Graham has stated above.
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Old 08-26-2021, 09:37 AM   #31
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Default HOA Common Property Dock Policies

This is the HOA common property dock policy from a few years ago. “A dock holder who transfers property to a trust and/or to an immediate family member will retain the dock privilege.”

This permits the vast majority of the Board to transfer their common property docks to their children or family members, bypassing the 130 person member waitlist. They justify this as a “first come first serve” system. There are 60 docks and the policy permits all members to transfer “their” common property docks. On average one dock turns over to a person on the waitlist each year. The last person on the waitlist has an estimated 130 year wait time. Positions on the wait list are not transferable.

Do other HOAs have similar policies?
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Old 08-26-2021, 11:04 AM   #32
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After reading the initial post and respective responses AND as a homeowner in an HOA I have some questions. It looks like the docks are a contentious issue so I'll start with them.
1) Was this inheritance rule always in place or did something change?
2) If something changed, who changed it and when?
3) Do any of the board members have docks? If so, how many?
4) How many people on the waitlist and what is the current wait time for a dock?
5) Do they limit or block access to any other common property? If so, what?
6) Was there any member input for any of this? A vote taken?
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Old 08-26-2021, 11:07 AM   #33
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This is the HOA common property dock policy from a few years ago. “A dock holder who transfers property to a trust and/or to an immediate family member will retain the dock privilege.”

This permits the vast majority of the Board to transfer their common property docks to their children or family members, bypassing the 130 person member waitlist. They justify this as a “first come first serve” system. There are 60 docks and the policy permits all members to transfer “their” common property docks. On average one dock turns over to a person on the waitlist each year. The last person on the waitlist has an estimated 130 year wait time. Positions on the wait list are not transferable.

Do other HOAs have similar policies?
Fascinating. Leaving whether "first come, first serve" is fair and just focusing on the interpersonal dynamic--a democratic group has agreed that 1/3 of it's member should have docks in perpetuity and 2/3's should never have docks.

Put your newborn granddaughter on that waitlist!
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Old 08-26-2021, 01:53 PM   #34
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After reading the initial post and respective responses AND as a homeowner in an HOA I have some questions. It looks like the docks are a contentious issue so I'll start with them.
Thank you for your well thought out questions and your interest.

1) Was this inheritance rule always in place or did something change?
The first written reference to this inheritance rule was in the 2016/2017 Dock Policy. It’s said it was a past practice and I believe several people have already transferred docks to their children. It’s extremely difficult to get info from the Board on this subject.

2) If something changed, who changed it and when?
It’s difficult to determine the first instance of this practice as the Board doesn’t answer written requests for information or verbal questions in meetings.

3) Do any of the board members have docks? If so, how many?
About 11 of 14 Board members have docks.

4) How many people on the waitlist and what is the current wait time for a dock?
About 130 pay $100 to be on the waitlist. Average turnover is one dock a year. (More info on my last post.)

5) Do they limit or block access to any other common property? If so, what?
Nothing else is blocked from members. The Board is discussing blocking renters from using the common property beach on weekends though.

6) Was there any member input for any of this? A vote taken?
Many members are angry at this policy and have voiced their opinions. When asked if the community can vote, the Board states they have been elected to make these decisions for the community.
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Old 08-26-2021, 02:26 PM   #35
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Default Association Vote

I would think your association would have a chance to change this if you have a majority on board to vote in favor. I believe you would need to get the proposal on the agenda for the annual meeting, propose the motion, get a second in order to discuss. You would need a detailed plan laying out your new system, ie dock sharing, lottery, or whatever system you'd like to change to. There would be a pro/con discussion then a vote. It sounds like some work involved but if you know ahead of time who's in and who's not it may be worth it. I heard of an association in the Sunapee area that had more members than docks/moorings combined and are on a Lottery system. Numbers are picked for docks and moorings and any additional members left over do not have access that year. The 2nd year those who didn't have access are the first to pick. Members must have a registered boat or jet ski to be in the Lottery. Worst case every third year a member might not have water access. This sounds better than being on a wait list forever and having no access! Has anyone else heard of other associations with shared docks/moorings or lottery systems?

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Old 08-26-2021, 02:31 PM   #36
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I would think your association would have a chance to change this if you have a majority on board to vote in favor.
It's already been reported that 11/14 board members have docks forever. Now let's assume those 11 people are rational...
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Old 08-26-2021, 03:02 PM   #37
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I would think your association would have a chance to change this if you have a majority on board to vote in favor.
The Board created a hand picked marina subcommittee, mostly Board members, and the written inheritance policy was passed unanimously.
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Old 08-26-2021, 03:07 PM   #38
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let's assume those 11 people are rational...
Are there other possibilities? Perhaps parents want to pass their discounted $1,000/year docks to their children?
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Old 08-26-2021, 03:36 PM   #39
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Are there other possibilities? Perhaps parents want to pass their discounted $1,000/year docks to their children?
What I’m missing is, if there are so many disgruntled HOA members why isn’t the board turning over as each directors term expires? This leads me to believe only a minority of the members have issues with the current board. I’m not defending any side here this is just an observation from someone that has been an HOA board member for several HOAs for past 20 years and currently sit on my HOA board.


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Old 08-26-2021, 03:49 PM   #40
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The Board created a hand picked marina subcommittee, mostly Board members, and the written inheritance policy was passed unanimously.
I meant if the majority of members were in favor(on board) of changing then it would take a motion and a majority vote to change it. Maybe the bylaws state that the board has all the power to make all the changes.
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Old 08-26-2021, 03:58 PM   #41
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What I’m missing is, if there are so many disgruntled HOA members why isn’t the board turning over as each directors term expires? This leads me to believe only a minority of the members have issues with the current board. I’m not defending any side here this is just an observation from someone that has been an HOA board member for several HOAs for past 20 years and currently sit on my HOA board.


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No one wants to volunteer. No one wants to take the time. No one wants to get involved. That doesn't mean they don't care or think things are fair. You can have issues with the system and like and respect the job the board is doing. It will take a few people to pull everyone together to make a change.
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Old 08-26-2021, 04:22 PM   #42
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Are there other possibilities? Perhaps parents want to pass their discounted $1,000/year docks to their children?
Sorry, my last post was ambiguous. To be clear--I assume the 11 board members are rational, and that they will never vote to give up their current dock rights or those of their children and grandchildren.

As joey points out--the only way this will change is if the 2/3's of the members who will never see docks decide to vote out board members with docking rights. Unless the 2/3's are willing to go all-in on this, maybe it's fair enough in the eyes of most
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Old 08-26-2021, 05:04 PM   #43
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No one wants to volunteer. No one wants to take the time. No one wants to get involved. That doesn't mean they don't care or think things are fair. You can have issues with the system and like and respect the job the board is doing. It will take a few people to pull everyone together to make a change.
Very insightful. Joey2665 has very valid points too. Since many have had strong and differing opinions in the community, some members started web sites and Facebook pages for discussion and information sharing. (Google Love Suissevale) There are significant obstacles for new Suissevale candidates. Here are some:

1. No term limits for existing Board members
2. People may not be happy with the Board but people by default go with what they know. It’s called “Incumbency Advantage”
3. The long standing Board and their families have many friends in the community.
4. Many vacationing community members are simply unaware.
5. Dock holders and people lower on the waitlist naturally prefer the Dock inheritance policy since it’s already in practice.
6. Access to the voter registry was denied
7. Several political spin tactics are used against new candidates too. ie- When solid facts are presented, the focus is shifted on the person reporting the facts and counter narratives emerge. It’s an easy tell but only if you know what to look for. It started on this thread but I’m glad to see it has stopped as more information has been revealed and people are genuinely curious and helpful. Thank you!
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Old 08-27-2021, 01:17 PM   #44
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I must be missing something. Either the association is run a a democracy (I.e., the members vote to establish the rules) or it is an autocracy (the board has all the power regardless of how the members vote.).

If it is a democracy, get the question on the agenda for the annual meeting, rally the supporters and pass a new docking rule and establish term limits for board members. My association has 3 yr limits. (Just because you have term limits doesn’t mean a member is out at the end of a term. He may win re-election or run unopposed because no one else wants to run. (Our past President was in office for 21 years because no one wanted the position)

If it’s an autocracy (what I’m reading sounds like a dictatorship - no term limits) your SOL. I don’t believe NH laws allow this option.


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Old 08-27-2021, 01:59 PM   #45
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Default Wow !!!

So if I'm reading all this correctly, this is what I've learned about Suissevale.

1) All or most of the board members have docks.
2) The board members recently created a rule/policy that allows them to keep their docks in their family ... forever.
3) There is a 100+ person wait list (people have to pay $100 to get on the list).
4) It's difficult/impossible to remove them as there are no term limits.
5) They (the board) won't allow access to the voter list/registry.
6) They don't/won't take a community vote when spending extremely large sums of community money.
7) They are, as one contributor put it an Autocracy (actually an oligarchy I think).
8) The board appears to be very greedy, self-serving and (possibly) crooked in their dealings with the community at large.
9) As I have been there, it appears to be a beautiful community on the outside but the underpinnings take a lot to be desired.
10) It would seem, in my opinion, those out here defending the board of directors actions are either related, friends, current dock holders or will gain something from them by complying with them.

Am I missing anything? Am I incorrect in my conclusions?
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Old 08-27-2021, 02:20 PM   #46
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So if I'm reading all this correctly, this is what I've learned about Suissevale.

1) All or most of the board members have docks.
2) The board members recently created a rule/policy that allows them to keep their docks in their family ... forever.
3) There is a 100+ person wait list (people have to pay $100 to get on the list).
4) It's difficult/impossible to remove them as there are no term limits.
5) They (the board) won't allow access to the voter list/registry.
6) They don't/won't take a community vote when spending extremely large sums of community money.
7) They are, as one contributor put it an Autocracy (actually an oligarchy I think).
8) The board appears to be very greedy, self-serving and (possibly) crooked in their dealings with the community at large.
9) As I have been there, it appears to be a beautiful community on the outside but the underpinnings take a lot to be desired.
10) It would seem, in my opinion, those out here defending the board of directors actions are either related, friends, current dock holders or will gain something from them by complying with them.

Am I missing anything? Am I incorrect in my conclusions?
I’m not defending anybody here but the one thing you’re missing is the board members although may not have term limits are up for elections periodically. If the majority of the community doesn’t like the board there’s plenty of them there to vote these people out. I believe in this situation we are really only seeing one side of the story. Not saying who is right or wrong again I just believe we’re not getting the full story


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Old 08-27-2021, 02:24 PM   #47
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So if I'm reading all this correctly, this is what I've learned about Suissevale.

8) The board appears to be very greedy, self-serving and (possibly) crooked in their dealings with the community at large.


Am I missing anything? Am I incorrect in my conclusions?
Maybe I'm missing something, but your #8 seems to miss the gray area that makes this such an excellent thread. The current dock holders bought into Suissevale knowing the rules and waiting in line like everyone else. So did those currently on the wait list. People on the wait list may not like the length of the wait, but they did buy in under certain rules.

So I do not agree that the dock holders are necessarily greedy. They are simply voting some combination of tradition and their personal interest.

I agree there should be regular elections, and it is odd that there is not a Suissevale membership directory. I look forward to hearing from a resident of those points.
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Old 08-27-2021, 04:02 PM   #48
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I must be missing something. Either the association is run a a democracy (I.e., the members vote to establish the rules) or it is an autocracy (the board has all the power regardless of how the members vote.)
A quorum is in our bylaws where 30% of members (130 people) can vote on policies. Since we’re primarily a weekend home community we can’t physically get those numbers to the annual meetings. We did an online survey where 92% of 145 respondents said they would change the dock system. Too bad voting by proxy wasn’t an option.
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Old 08-27-2021, 04:12 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by BMoralNH View Post
So if I'm reading all this correctly, this is what I've learned about Suissevale.

1) All or most of the board members have docks.
2) The board members recently created a rule/policy that allows them to keep their docks in their family ... forever.
3) There is a 100+ person wait list (people have to pay $100 to get on the list).
4) It's difficult/impossible to remove them as there are no term limits.
5) They (the board) won't allow access to the voter list/registry.
6) They don't/won't take a community vote when spending extremely large sums of community money.
7) They are, as one contributor put it an Autocracy (actually an oligarchy I think).
8) The board appears to be very greedy, self-serving and (possibly) crooked in their dealings with the community at large.
9) As I have been there, it appears to be a beautiful community on the outside but the underpinnings take a lot to be desired.
10) It would seem, in my opinion, those out here defending the board of directors actions are either related, friends, current dock holders or will gain something from them by complying with them.

Am I missing anything? Am I incorrect in my conclusions?
You summed it up perfectly. I’m impressed you could determine the supporters are the Board’s Friends and Family. We call them the BFF group. The Board’s kids really don’t want to loose “their” docks.
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Old 08-27-2021, 04:22 PM   #50
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So I do not agree that the dock holders are necessarily greedy. They are simply voting some combination of tradition and their personal interest. .
This is a fair statement. Most of the 60 dock holders are understandably in favor of the current policy. There are also members who have docks and are low on the waitlist but are in favor of updating the dock policy.
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Old 08-27-2021, 04:32 PM   #51
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I’m not defending anybody here but the one thing you’re missing is the board members although may not have term limits are up for elections periodically. If the majority of the community doesn’t like the board there’s plenty of them there to vote these people out. I believe in this situation we are really only seeing one side of the story. Not saying who is right or wrong again I just believe we’re not getting the full story


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This is a very rational comment showing life experience. I’ve laid out the facts to the best of my ability. The other people from earlier in the thread are welcome to respond. Typically the counter arguments are emotionally based and focus on the person stating the facts opposed to the issue.
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Old 08-27-2021, 05:25 PM   #52
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I’m not defending anybody here but the one thing you’re missing is the board members although may not have term limits are up for elections periodically. If the majority of the community doesn’t like the board there’s plenty of them there to vote these people out. I believe in this situation we are really only seeing one side of the story. Not saying who is right or wrong again I just believe we’re not getting the full story


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Great point and I thought of that as well but according to some of the posts, the board would allow people to see the voter register or list .... which I believe should be made available to any member who asks. So with that, it would be extremely easy to control the vote and the outcome. I could be wrong here so someone/member with knowledge could confirm, deny or explain the situation better than me.
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Old 08-28-2021, 06:01 PM   #53
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A quorum is in our bylaws where 30% of members (130 people) can vote on policies. Since we’re primarily a weekend home community we can’t physically get those numbers to the annual meetings. We did an online survey where 92% of 145 respondents said they would change the dock system. Too bad voting by proxy wasn’t an option.
I think you should check the NH laws. I know the condo laws changed in 2006 and made significant changes to how condo associations operate regardless of what the establishing documents say. So, regardless of the establishing documents NH laws prevail.


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Old 08-28-2021, 10:35 PM   #54
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I think you should check the NH laws. I know the condo laws changed in 2006 and made significant changes to how condo associations operate regardless of what the establishing documents say. So, regardless of the establishing documents NH laws prevail.
Yes, but the correct law must be applied.

Condo

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../356-b-mrg.htm

HOA

Go to post #18 in this thread.

"New Hampshire Community Association Law

Homeowners’ associations in New Hampshire are not governed by any specific regulations. There are Condominium Rules and a Condominium Act but neither apply directly to HOAs. All community associations must be registered as corporations, most choose to file as Voluntary Corporations, and are therefore subject to Chapter 292 of the New Hampshire Statutes regarding Voluntary Corporations and Associations.

Since there are no formal government acts regarding the management of HOAs, rules can vary drastically between communities. HOAs have the freedom to create and enforce as many or as few regulations as they desire as long as no state or federal laws are violated. Typically, homeowners will sign a contract to join the homeowners’ association upon purchase of property within a common interest community. After that, they are legally bound to follow all regulations set forth by the association."


https://clarksimsonmiller.com/new-ha...d-regulations/
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Old 08-29-2021, 11:29 AM   #55
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Very interested to find out that unless it is identified in HOA community bylaws an owner has no right to vote. Wow! Taxation without representation anyone! Seems like this would open things up to all sorts of misbehavior or self interest issues.

Also, depending on how the HOA is formed, it is interesting that NH regs appear to preclude board members from being related by blood or marriage.


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Old 08-29-2021, 12:07 PM   #56
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HOA is not a government body, so it isn't taxation.

It is like buying ''non-voting'' shares in a corporation, or buying shares in a tightly held corporation where voting your shares would have little to no effect in most cases.
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Old 08-29-2021, 12:28 PM   #57
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HOA is not a government body, so it isn't taxation.

It is like buying ''non-voting'' shares in a corporation, or buying shares in a tightly held corporation where voting your shares would have little to no effect in most cases.
Sort of. In all 3 of these situations you are placing your faith in others. In your two examples, you are (typically) betting a relatively small amount of money on others' SHARED desire to maximize profit for the company. Not terribly difficult to see how this should work out OK.

In the HOA, you are betting a large amount of money that those in charge will share your views on how the community that is vitally important to you will operate, and how resources of the community will be distributed. The last one seems like a sucker's bet.
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Old 08-29-2021, 01:01 PM   #58
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Both are. We are generally happy as long as it moves in the direction we want, and unhappy when it doesn't.

The best cases are when there exists some liquidity so you can choose to get out easily... but that isn't always the case.
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Old 08-30-2021, 09:07 AM   #59
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If you are in an HOA, you need to show up, go to meetings. Things are run by people who show up, if you are not there you can't complain.....no excuses.
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Old 09-06-2021, 06:39 PM   #60
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Usually a disgruntled new owner who does not want to wait in line for a dock or slip starts these threads. I waited over 20yrs. to gain access to a slip.
All around our HOA the newbies just want to blow it up, hoping that they can have a slip NOW, thinking four years is enough of a wait. Some propose a raffle or lottery, without thinking if you have a slot for two yrs. and lose a third yr. lottery... What happens ??? Some folk no longer have even trailers. Short term thinking has infected far too many.
This is happening in Gilmanton right now.
New, entitled people coming in who want a lottery vs wait and obtain for life.

I vacationed here for many years but just moved here full time.
I valet my boat. Maybe I'll find a dock. Maybe I'll have to buy property on the lake to get one. Either way, I'm not going to disrupt the current (fair) process.

Who would buy a boat for a slip you might lose after a couple of years?
Entitled noobs...

Wait like everyone else did.
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Old 09-06-2021, 08:28 PM   #61
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This is happening in Gilmanton right now.
New, entitled people coming in who want a lottery vs wait and obtain for life.

I vacationed here for many years but just moved here full time.
I valet my boat. Maybe I'll find a dock. Maybe I'll have to buy property on the lake to get one. Either way, I'm not going to disrupt the current (fair) process.

Who would buy a boat for a slip you might lose after a couple of years?
Entitled noobs...

Wait like everyone else did.
I agree about "entitled noobs"...or maybe it's naive noobs?

Curious on your voting decision--how long have you been waiting, when do you expect to get dock space under the current system, how old are you? (hope that is not too personal)
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Old 09-06-2021, 09:17 PM   #62
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I agree about "entitled noobs"...or maybe it's naive noobs?

Curious on your voting decision--how long have you been waiting, when do you expect to get dock space under the current system, how old are you? (hope that is not too personal)
I'd be happy to answer these questions, but none of them are relevant.
How long I expect to wait means nothing. My age means nothing.
That is emotional trivia.

This is simple supply and demand.
Supply is limited. Once you obtain a space, it is yours for life or until:
1. You sell or refuse to pay the annual fee
2. You decide to give it up
3. You repeatedly break the rules of usage

I could see room for a #4 Grandstanding on a grandfathered in space, but never using it.(Only within an association. Private ownership is ownership, used or not)

Other than that, what makes a newcomer (including me) think they can bump someone who has been here for years and has invested in a boat and lifestyle surrounding the space they waited years for?
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Old 09-06-2021, 09:27 PM   #63
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I'd be happy to answer these questions, but none of them are relevant.
How long I expect to wait means nothing. My age means nothing.
That is emotional trivia.

This is simple supply and demand.
Supply is limited. Once you obtain a space, it is yours for life or until:
1. You sell or refuse to pay the annual fee
2. You decide to give it up
3. You repeatedly break the rules of usage

I could see room for a #4 Grandstanding on a grandfathered in space, but never using it.(Only within an association. Private ownership is ownership, used or not)

Other than that, what makes a newcomer (including me) think they can bump someone who has been here for years and has invested in a boat and lifestyle surrounding the space they waited years for?
I think there's a distinct difference between a lifetime for an owner and a lifetime for a family. I'd have a huge issue with the son/daughter of someone getting a hand-me-down slip over an original owner who's waited 20 years.

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Old 09-06-2021, 09:40 PM   #64
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I think there's a distinct difference between a lifetime for an owner and a lifetime for a family. I'd have a huge issue with the son/daughter of someone getting a hand-me-down slip over an original owner who's waited 20 years.

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That I will absolutely agree with. A *person* is on a waiting list, not an extended family.
When a person is done, the next person on the waiting list is in.

If dad has a dock and you want one someday, best to get on that list as soon as you can!
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Old 09-06-2021, 10:01 PM   #65
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That I will absolutely agree with. A *person* is on a waiting list, not an extended family.
When a person is done, the next person on the waiting list is in.

If dad has a dock and you want one someday, best to get on that list as soon as you can!
Soooo...would someone be an "entitled noob" if they thought that policy was unreasonable and wanted it changed?

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Old 09-06-2021, 10:29 PM   #66
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Soooo...would someone be an "entitled noob" if they thought that policy was unreasonable and wanted it changed?

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You’re making a false argument based on a position I did not hold. You actually used two logical fallacies in one response:
1. Hasty generalization
2. Straw man argument (posed as a question)

The policy is reasonable. It is unreasonable to think that you should get in front of people who have invested (and are fully vested) in a place.

I’m not biting


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Old 09-06-2021, 10:45 PM   #67
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Here’s what would be unreasonable:

Someone moving to a lake community, knowing there was a wait when buying, then buying and later demanding a boat space at the expense of someone else, someone else who waited for it, has had it and has invested in a boat for it.

Some of these people don’t even own trailers for their boats.

I am a new comer, and I fully understand this…
The only way I can “demand” myself a dock on the lake is if I buy a house on the water that can legally hold a dock.

Even if I thought I could get a dock for only a year or two, I wouldn’t buy a boat for the space and I’m not sure if I would buy a boat at all…
What happens after that?

It’s not right.
You wait, you get it, you keep it.


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Old 09-07-2021, 05:53 AM   #68
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Here’s what would be unreasonable:

Someone moving to a lake community, knowing there was a wait when buying, then buying and later demanding a boat space at the expense of someone else, someone else who waited for it, has had it and has invested in a boat for it.

Some of these people don’t even own trailers for their boats.

I am a new comer, and I fully understand this…
The only way I can “demand” myself a dock on the lake is if I buy a house on the water that can legally hold a dock.

Even if I thought I could get a dock for only a year or two, I wouldn’t buy a boat for the space and I’m not sure if I would buy a boat at all…
What happens after that?

It’s not right.
You wait, you get it, you keep it.


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Ummm...you said above that a policy of passing slips down through the family is unreasonable but then said "you wait, you get it, you keep it." Which is it?

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Old 09-07-2021, 07:32 AM   #69
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Ummm...you said above that a policy of passing slips down through the family is unreasonable but then said "you wait, you get it, you keep it." Which is it?

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You seem to enjoy using deliberate confusion to gain ground in a debate when it’s very clear what is being said.

Yes, you keep it. You, as a person.
When you sell your home in the association or pass away, the next PERSON on the list gets their option.

I believe I clarified this above.
It would be unethical to pass the slip along to an extended family member ahead of somebody who has already been waiting.

We good?


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Old 09-07-2021, 07:39 AM   #70
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Ummm...you said above that a policy of passing slips down through the family is unreasonable but then said "you wait, you get it, you keep it." Which is it?

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BTW, The logical fallacy you used in this response is called the “false dilemma”.

You made it look like it has to be one or the other.
“Which is it”?
I never said that and it doesn’t.

The nuances here are simple and I’ve already explained them. A person, not an extended family, is on the list.

I am more than open to a civil debate but I’m going to call out a logical fallacy or weak tactic every time.
I actually take offense to it because you’re attempting to trick me or “win” by arguing a position I never held.

How about instead focusing on finding truth?
Please form better debates.


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Old 09-07-2021, 09:28 AM   #71
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BTW, The logical fallacy you used in this response is called the “false dilemma”.

You made it look like it has to be one or the other.
“Which is it”?
I never said that and it doesn’t.

The nuances here are simple and I’ve already explained them. A person, not an extended family, is on the list.

I am more than open to a civil debate but I’m going to call out a logical fallacy or weak tactic every time.
I actually take offense to it because you’re attempting to trick me or “win” by arguing a position I never held.

How about instead focusing on finding truth?
Please form better debates.


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Enough with the rhetorical jargon—it's condescending and lame, especially when we're having a discussion to clarify your points that, as others have done already on your reservations post, are often inconsistent.

Now, to the topic of this thread: you agree that passing down slip "ownership" through generations is not ok. Why then isn't it ok for members of an association to want to change that? Why would being "noobs" matter if the policy isn't fair/right/reasonable and if there's enough of the association who agrees?

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Old 09-07-2021, 09:41 AM   #72
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Enough with the rhetorical jargon—it's condescending and lame, especially when we're having a discussion to clarify your points that, as others have done already on your reservations post, are often inconsistent.

Now, to the topic of this thread: you agree that passing down slip "ownership" through generations is not ok. Why then isn't it ok for members of an association to want to change that? Why would being "noobs" matter if the policy isn't fair/right/reasonable and if there's enough of the association who agrees?

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There was nothing rhetorical about my post, but since it seems you want to ground in reality, I'll digress. It was not intended as one bit condescending, but I do grow very impatient when people misrepresent my position.

I will again go back to an argument I didn't form: I never said it shouldn't be a discussion. Each association should have its own bylaws, of and agreed upon by the owners.
I have (I thought clearly, but perhaps not) been stating an *opinion* that it isn't right to take away dock/moorings rights from an individual once obtained.
This is part of that discussion, no?

Newcomers don't seem to understand how long others waited for their spot or how vested they are in it. It's not like a cafeteria where everyone uses a different table each time or may have to stand at times--there is no investment there.

When you wait for a slip or a dock, it often becomes available in a specific size. You then buy a boat for the slip you waited for. Until you sell, break the rules of use or voluntarily give it up, it should be yours.

Most lake communities understand this, especially people who have been here for awhile, but people new to the area are coming in and trying to create change in situations they don't yet understand.

I don't have a dock. I want a dock. It might be a long time before I get one, and yet I still empathize that a person (within an association) should be able to keep their dock rights until sale, misuse or death.
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Old 09-07-2021, 10:20 AM   #73
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There was nothing rhetorical about my post, but since it seems you want to ground in reality, I'll digress. It was not intended as one bit condescending, but I do grow very impatient when people misrepresent my position.

I will again go back to an argument I didn't form: I never said it shouldn't be a discussion. Each association should have its own bylaws, of and agreed upon by the owners.
I have (I thought clearly, but perhaps not) been stating an *opinion* that it isn't right to take away dock/moorings rights from an individual once obtained.
This is part of that discussion, no?

Newcomers don't seem to understand how long others waited for their spot or how vested they are in it. It's not like a cafeteria where everyone uses a different table each time or may have to stand at times--there is no investment there.

When you wait for a slip or a dock, it often becomes available in a specific size. You then buy a boat for the slip you waited for. Until you sell, break the rules of use or voluntarily give it up, it should be yours.

Most lake communities understand this, especially people who have been here for awhile, but people new to the area are coming in and trying to create change in situations they don't yet understand.

I don't have a dock. I want a dock. It might be a long time before I get one, and yet I still empathize that a person (within an association) should be able to keep their dock rights until sale, misuse or death.
Ok, I missed the part about "taking docks away" from those who have them. I agree completely and, unless I missed it, don't see anyone saying otherwise here.

When our association moved from a lottery to "own until given up/unpaid/death/moved/etc." people who already had slips kept them and moved forward. As part of that, however, only owners can be on the list. So, children of owners have to wait until the property is in their name before getting on the list. This system seems to be working well as there's not a very long list, and it turns over quickly.

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Old 09-07-2021, 03:03 PM   #74
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Ok, I missed the part about "taking docks away" from those who have them. I agree completely and, unless I missed it, don't see anyone saying otherwise here.

When our association moved from a lottery to "own until given up/unpaid/death/moved/etc." people who already had slips kept them and moved forward. As part of that, however, only owners can be on the list. So, children of owners have to wait until the property is in their name before getting on the list. This system seems to be working well as there's not a very long list, and it turns over quickly.

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That sounds reasonable, but that's not what I'm seeing in another case.
In Gilmanton, new buyers are trying to boot existing owners from their own docks and even moorings.

Think about the ignorance and entitlement necessary to propose this:
New to town, they buy a house, knowing there is a substantial wait for dock space. They then petition everyone that they think "docks and moorings should be rotated" (even privately owned moorings). It's actual insanity.

You've got people who have lived there for 20 years getting threatened to be booted off their dock so the new guy can take his spot. They want to propose a rotation lottery.

Who wants to buy a boat that you might get to dock 2 out of every 5 or 6 years?
What size do you buy? What size is the next spot you'll get, it any?

Invest in the community, wait your turn, then enjoy it for life.

I'm new here, at least new to living here full time.
I'm happy to have valet service (and access to a semi-shared dock on the big lake from time to time.)

If you're so special that you want and need a dock right now, buy a house on the lake
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Old 09-09-2021, 03:23 PM   #75
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That sounds reasonable, but that's not what I'm seeing in another case.
In Gilmanton, new buyers are trying to boot existing owners from their own docks and even moorings.

Think about the ignorance and entitlement necessary to propose this:
New to town, they buy a house, knowing there is a substantial wait for dock space. They then petition everyone that they think "docks and moorings should be rotated" (even privately owned moorings). It's actual insanity.

You've got people who have lived there for 20 years getting threatened to be booted off their dock so the new guy can take his spot. They want to propose a rotation lottery.

Who wants to buy a boat that you might get to dock 2 out of every 5 or 6 years?
What size do you buy? What size is the next spot you'll get, it any?

Invest in the community, wait your turn, then enjoy it for life.

I'm new here, at least new to living here full time.
I'm happy to have valet service (and access to a semi-shared dock on the big lake from time to time.)

If you're so special that you want and need a dock right now, buy a house on the lake
I have no ties to any of the assoications involved nor am I familiar with them, however I do see both sides of the argument. If I have a dock why would I want to change to a lottery system?
I agree with the members who want to get rid of handing docks down to family members. A change of land ownership should put the new owners at the bottom of the wait list.
If I were on a waiting list for 1 year or 15 years, I would consider putting a motion on the annual ballot for a change to a fair lottery or sharing system that would get me on the water at least every other year. It would be better than what those members have now, which is nothing. Sure, it would be a big change for members locked in and in their eyes unfair, however if there were enough to votes change then the majority have spoken. The vote tally in the end will speak for the association. A new homeowner has the same voting power(1 per lot) as someowne who's owned for 50 years.
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Old 09-09-2021, 06:19 PM   #76
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Due diligence, you figure this stuff out before you buy. That's what I did, and I learned a lesson, non dock related, with an HOA. The lesson was that you need to show up to meetings and be active otherwise, the loudmouths rule.

These Johnie come lately types should put their focus to building more docks rather than upsetting the apple cart, it can be done, but it's highly unlikely they would put their money where their mouths are.
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Old 09-10-2021, 02:03 AM   #77
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Due diligence, you figure this stuff out before you buy. That's what I did, and I learned a lesson, non dock related, with an HOA. The lesson was that you need to show up to meetings and be active otherwise, the loudmouths rule.

These Johnie come lately types should put their focus to building more docks rather than upsetting the apple cart, it can be done, but it's highly unlikely they would put their money where their mouths are.
I can see both sides. You do make a great point. For example, I'm closing next week on a lot in Balmoral. I've been vacationing up there for 20 years and am well aware about the dock situation. I don't think it's necessarily fair but rather than focus on being new to the community and pissing on a bees nest, I'd be more curious about options and logistics to expand the dock system. There is plenty of space to go out from the beach. You could potentially double or even triple the amount of docks. Anyone know if that's been discussed?
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Old 09-10-2021, 04:54 AM   #78
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we have been in an association 40 years, this is always an issue. I have brought up many times that if people got together & bought boats together some of these problems could be eliminated, most people boat a couple times a week & could work out times themselves & all involved save $$$$$$$
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Old 09-10-2021, 08:28 AM   #79
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I can see both sides. You do make a great point. For example, I'm closing next week on a lot in Balmoral. I've been vacationing up there for 20 years and am well aware about the dock situation. I don't think it's necessarily fair but rather than focus on being new to the community and pissing on a bees nest, I'd be more curious about options and logistics to expand the dock system. There is plenty of space to go out from the beach. You could potentially double or even triple the amount of docks. Anyone know if that's been discussed?
It is nearly impossible to increase docking on the lake! Welcome to the area. I have a lot of friends in “badmorals”!
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Old 09-10-2021, 08:36 AM   #80
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It is nearly impossible to increase docking on the lake! Welcome to the area. I have a lot of friends in “badmorals”!
Ummm, is this a quip about their pissing on other people's beehives, wife-swapping, public indecency...?! Inquiring minds want to know.

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Old 09-10-2021, 10:36 AM   #81
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Same. I've heard the "Badmorals" a few times and am curious. Also apparently someone has a Badmoral Tattoo.
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Old 09-10-2021, 10:40 AM   #82
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It is nearly impossible to increase docking on the lake! Welcome to the area. I have a lot of friends in “badmorals”!
I'm not surprised if that's the case.

End of day, it's a .7 mile drive down the road and a really nice boat ramp. I can live w/o a dock.
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:24 AM   #83
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It is nearly impossible to increase docking on the lake! Welcome to the area. I have a lot of friends in “badmorals”!
The new 'Mini Miami' condos increase dockings from the grandfathered Barton's motel slips. Seems like the state okay the idea since the Cemetary next door doesn't need docks they add the shore frontage to the current property frontage to add more slips to their ratio! Bet that doesn't go well with Margate! I can imagine the 'war' this will create if this happened when the mafia used to own the Margate.
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:59 AM   #84
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It solves the ''trespass'' problem the cemetery was having, and for the state possibly solves at least one of its sandbar issues without having to pass a new rule or legislation.
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Old 09-12-2021, 12:27 PM   #85
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Have the docks been approved? Last I heard it was with the state


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Old 09-13-2021, 07:45 PM   #86
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we have been in an association 40 years, this is always an issue. I have brought up many times that if people got together & bought boats together some of these problems could be eliminated, most people boat a couple times a week & could work out times themselves & all involved save $$$$$$$

Buying boats together.
What could go wrong…

I like having my own boat. And when I get a dock, I want to get the biggest boat the dock will hold, then keep it as many years as I want. I don’t mind waiting for that day to come.

But shared boats?
People break things and treat them like crap.
A boat is the last thing I’m going to co-purchase.


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Old 09-13-2021, 08:08 PM   #87
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The new 'Mini Miami' condos increase dockings from the grandfathered Barton's motel slips. Seems like the state okay the idea since the Cemetary next door doesn't need docks they add the shore frontage to the current property frontage to add more slips to their ratio! Bet that doesn't go well with Margate! I can imagine the 'war' this will create if this happened when the mafia used to own the Margate.
The Mafia never owned the Margate. It was built and owned by the Antico family and they were not members of the mafia. I grew up with the family in Waltham Ma.
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:13 AM   #88
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This thread has been both informative and interesting hearing the rules of various associations.
Our association does not allow dogs on the beach, no exceptions. There are a fair number of owners with dogs that would like to propose a change that would allow dogs, with restrictions. I understand some people don't like dogs, however if there were a compromise that wouldn't bother members maybe this would work. I would like to hear if other associations allow dogs, and any restrictions they might have such as seasonal restrictions or restrictions limited to certain hours of the days, leash requirements, allowing swimming, etc.
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:20 AM   #89
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Same. I've heard the "Badmorals" a few times and am curious. Also apparently someone has a Badmoral Tattoo.
It is a great association- they have a lot of fun there. One year someone had T-shirts made with something like "Balmoral, arrive on vacation, leave on probation"
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:40 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Denny Crane View Post
This thread has been both informative and interesting hearing the rules of various associations.

Our association does not allow dogs on the beach, no exceptions. There are a fair number of owners with dogs that would like to propose a change that would allow dogs, with restrictions. I understand some people don't like dogs, however if there were a compromise that wouldn't bother members maybe this would work. I would like to hear if other associations allow dogs, and any restrictions they might have such as seasonal restrictions or restrictions limited to certain hours of the days, leash requirements, allowing swimming, etc.
No dogs allowed on our beach, but we have fishing and boat docks and a boat ramp that doggos can swim at/off.

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