How would you measure success or failure?

[Dave R]

Since the current bill has a sunset clause, it will need to be revisited at a later date (two years, if memory serves) to determine if it was successful or if it failed. I'm curious how speed limit supporters and speed limit opponents would measure success or failure.

Do we measure accident statistics before and after? If so, how do you show improvement if there were no speed related accidents (over the proposed limits) in last two years?

Do we measure success with economic growth in the Winnipesaukee region from the last two years to the next two? That would probably be flawed data due to the general economic state of the whole country.

Do we measure success by boater visits? If so, are more boater visits a success or are less boater visits a success? I think many proponents would prefer fewer boaters, but I'm not sure that's the intent of the NH legislature.

How do we measure failure????

What if there's a high speed (over 45/25) related death after the speed limit is passed? How about a low speed (under 25/45) related death? Would either be considered a failure? It would be hard to argue either as a failure of the law, but to not do so would be to say that the speed limit is irrelevant. You certainly couldn't call either scenario a success...

[bilproject]

Dave R, you point out a subject already brought up in another thread. It has yet to be answered. My feeling is that a speed limit is only an incremental step toward what many really want, All noisey motor boats off the lake! Something will happen that will probably be under the speed limit and those that now complain about boats coming to close to kayaks due to speed will point at the incident and call for the next step. Prudent speed is a given with or with out speed limits, but since the speed limit did not work let's restrict HP to under 10. That will slow all the boats down to paddle speed! A few years later we'll use pollution as a reason to ban those 9.9's. Then the lake will be the quiet place they want to paddle about in. No loud boats only the sounds of those lovely paddles propelling them about the lake. Of course then the Loons may ban together and want to restrict the kayacks to a paddle the size of a drinking straw. There's another point, kayaks should slow to no paddle speed within 150 of a swimmer (Loon). Should they not?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...I'm curious how speed limit supporters and speed limit opponents would measure success or failure..."

Mine was the first mention of a sunset clause on these pages, and I asked for five years.

Three years is too short to establish "success", and two years accomplishes no trend at all, IMHO. The Unknowns remain unknowns regarding "the next fatality"; nonetheless, a success should assure a continuation of the law. Any failures would point to the necessity for the law in the first place.

Local close-calls and "regular" fatalities are trending such that the next Winnipesaukee fatality will occur at night; as a consequence, the night-speed rate would be dropped to 15, with thanks to Cal for suggesting it.

If a high-speed fatality occurs during daylight hours, speed enforcement would need to be stepped up, heightening the Director's anxiety. Don't expect HB847 to be abandoned to the "Unlimited Speeds" contingent after any high-speed fatality. All that civilized Humanity can ask, is that boaters travel sober and sanely.

"Economic success" could be measured by the number of BWI arrests, as the state operates a booming liquor store business. Alas, according to Coast Guard stats, the Marine Patrol has a dismal record in BWI arrests: Drunk boaters are discovered by default.

To clarify the "low" speed collision/fatality, are you [DaveR] considering 45-MPH to be slow? In auto traffic, that's a survivable crash speed, although being unconscious after a car wreck is far less serious than being unconscious in the lake.

[fatlazyless]

Sunset or no sunset is not the deciding factor.

Basically, it's a Democratic-Republican issue. If the Repubs regain their lost majority, the 45-25 is history, and vice versa. It's almost a direct cause and effect.

The NH Repubs have been big-time recipients of campaign aid from the NH Marine Trades Assoc for so long that all the Repubs smell like two-stroke oil, & 90 weight gear grease!

Too, too bad that Sen Rob Boyce and Gov Craig Benson have been relocated to their political graves. Maybe, the gfbl's want to cozy up to State Sen Clegg....hear he's running for congress ...and would probably welcome some gfbl help.

....rots - o - ruck....fellas!

& the vote was 236-111 !...read it & weep!

[Bear Islander]

One or two accidents that may or may not occur in the next two years is not a large enough statistical universe to use for evaluating speed limits. Anyway preventing accidents is not the main reason I support speed limits.

I would expect to see small increases in tourism and the use of unpowered vessels. However there are so many other factors that a skeptic will be able explain away these changes.

The best way, in my opinion, will be to listen to the opinions of MP officers, commercial boat captains, camp directors, marina operators etc. You will have to look past some bias, but I think a consensus can easily be found.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

.

Local close-calls and "regular" fatalities are trending such that the next Winnipesaukee fatality will occur at night; as a consequence, the night-speed rate would be dropped to 15, with thanks to Cal for suggesting it.

If a high-speed fatality occurs during daylight hours, speed enforcement would need to be stepped up, heightening the Director's anxiety. Don't expect HB847 to be abandoned to the "Unlimited Speeds" contingent after any high-speed fatality. All that civilized Humanity can ask, is that boaters travel sober and sanely.

.

Your quite welcome for the idea ,APS. Since you like it here's another. NO daytime speed related deaths and RAISE the limit to 60

Of course this is based on whether or not it passes in the first place

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

To clarify the "low" speed collision/fatality, are you [DaveR] considering 45-MPH to be slow? In auto traffic, that's a survivable crash speed, although being unconscious after a car wreck is far less serious than being unconscious in the lake.

I choose 45 for pretty obvious reasons, cannot imagine why you are confused. But yeah, 45 is pretty slow, it's the minimum one can do on our highways. I can exceed it in my driveway on my sport motorcycle. I see tractor trailers exceed 45 all the time, on the same highways our CHILDREN travel on .

[fatlazyless]

Maybe you don't know this, but tractor-trailer drivers are required by federal law to have one state CDL driver's license, and one state medical card, and are held to higher standards by the police. A big-rig that speeds ten miles above the posted 65mph speed limit on route 93 will most definately get stopped and ticketed. How long does it take for a speeding violation to disappear from a CDL licensee? It takes 15 years. The trucker's CDL license is their job and livelihood.

A speeding trucker is an unemployed trucker!

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Maybe you don't know this, but tractor-trailer drivers are required by federal law to have one state CDL driver's license, and one state medical card, and are held to higher standards by the police. A big-rig that speeds ten miles above the posted 65mph speed limit on route 93 will most definately get stopped and ticketed. How long does it take for a speeding violation to disappear from a CDL licensee? It takes 15 years. The trucker's CDL license is their job and livelihood.

A speeding trucker is an unemployed trucker!

I did know this, I have friends with CDLs.

My point is that I routinely see tractor trailers going 65 (the speed limit) or more on the highway, the same highway my Children are on . Why is 65 considered safe at 5 or 6 feet away while 45 is considered fast at 150 feet? I've seen you post that 45 is fast in a boat. It's not, it's simply 45.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Maybe you don't know this, but tractor-trailer drivers are required by federal law to have one state CDL driver's license, and one state medical card, and are held to higher standards by the police. A big-rig that speeds ten miles above the posted 65mph speed limit on route 93 will most definately get stopped and ticketed. How long does it take for a speeding violation to disappear from a CDL licensee? It takes 15 years. The trucker's CDL license is their job and livelihood.

A speeding trucker is an unemployed trucker!

The trucks I see speeding down 495 at 75 to 80 mph seem gainfully employed to me....

[ApS]

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...Why is 65 considered safe at 5 or 6 feet away while 45 is considered fast at 150 feet...?"

Because at 65 we're all traveling in the same direction?
Because we don't tube and waterski on the Interstate?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Acres per Second

Because at 65 we're all traveling in the same direction?
Because we don't tube and waterski on the Interstate?

I ride a motorcycle, that leaves me just as vulnerable as a tuber or water skier. Last I checked, no one was trying to drop the speed limit to 45 on the highways to protect motorcyclists. Probably because it's a silly argument.

Skiing and tubing are inherently risky, like motorcyling and kayaking. How many tubers, skiers or kayakers have been hit by boats going over 45 on Winnipesaukee? I can assure you plenty of motorcyclists have been killed by cars going over 45. Maybe we should just ban cars?

[wifi]

Of course, we can always throw into the debate mix, the stopping distance of a boat vs a SUV, unless you ordered extra large brakes for your boat, but I wouldn't think of complicating things

[jrc]

Cars and boats are different. If boats had accident rates anywhere near cars, I and many others would be eagerly pushing for more limits on their operations. I'm still not sure that 25/45 would be the right law but something would have to be done.

The latest stats from 2005 show less than 700 deaths in boating fatalities throughout the US. That's about 2 a day and about 5 for every 100,000 boats.

For passenger cars there were 40,000 deaths. That's 110 every day and 29 for every 100,000 cars. Now remember that almost every inch of road surface in the US has a speed limit. Roads also have signals lights, lane markers, guard rails, and a hundred other devices and laws to improve safety.

Cars and boats are different, you can't blindly use the rules for one to help the other.

[Hottrucks]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Maybe you don't know this, but tractor-trailer drivers are required by federal law to have one state CDL driver's license, and one state medical card, and are held to higher standards by the police. A big-rig that speeds ten miles above the posted 65mph speed limit on route 93 will most definately get stopped and ticketed. How long does it take for a speeding violation to disappear from a CDL licensee? It takes 15 years. The trucker's CDL license is their job and livelihood.

A speeding trucker is an unemployed trucker!

Thank you for bringing this to light!!

Originally Posted by ITD

The trucks I see speeding down 495 at 75 to 80 mph seem gainfully employed to me....

As far as trucks go MOST ( READ MOST) trucks are governed at 72 the insurance companies and trucking companys have made it more than worth there while to do this to save fuel...ON THE EAST COAST...many trucking companies can turn up or down the speed limiters and HP goveners from there office depending on location of the truck...please don't drag them into it it's not even the save thing ......most of it has to do with the cost of fuel...kinda like why UPS washes there trucks so often..