Navigation markers - red and black

[Winilyme]

Does anyone know the history behind the selection of these colors? For me, it's not really that the markers themselves can be difficult to see but, even more so, it can be difficult to discern the difference between red and black - especially when heading toward the sun early or late in the day. Can't say how many times I've wondered why the selected colors weren't, say, red and white, or black and yellow. Anyone for orange and bright green? Better yet, one that has multiple stripes and one that's solid colored.

Seems worse when I have my polarized shades on but I can't see very well with them off so I resort to slowing to a crawl until I'm close enough to discern the color. Often enough, that's closer than I'm comfortable with. Again, this is primarily when the sun is low in the sky. Over time it becomes easier as I memorize many but it's a big lake, there's a lot of markers, and a lot of boaters on the water here for the first time........

[persistence]

Agree. All my navigation has been on salt. Including numerous trips up and down the east coast. I Can run around Boston harbor / islands with my eyes closed which is pretty tricky itself.

I find these markers very confusing....but I am learning them. Was out this weekend and even with my new lake chip I slowed down often to verify. I never really understood where they came from.


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[garysanfran]

Certainly the red-right-return rule does not apply on lakes and I, also, find it difficult to distinguish black from dark red and frequently have to rely on my chart if in unknown water.

[persistence]

Red right return has its limits too. Doesn’t always apply. Ex. Where the ICW crosses an inlet to the ocean. It’s a lot of fun when the markers switch sides on you.


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[Sue Doe-Nym]

Hmmmmm......it sounds like you are gearing up for a “peaceful protest”!
🙄

[tummyman]

Sign me up for bright orange and bright green like similar colors that are used for highway safety workers, etc. etc. Marine patrol should look at testing other colors to see if they work better.

[Descant]

All the markers can be hard to see when looking directly at the sun. Color doesn't matter. Other boats, too. Mostly, I look at the chart and the dotted line goes close to shore or outside the buoy, away from land. You don't need to know color or compass direction for those many cases.
1. Study the chart for a planned destination before you leave the house, not after you get in the boat and are en route. For most routes you can go from flasher to flasher in a straight line in open water.
2. Appoint a navigator. No reason one person should drive and navigate too. Give your binoculars to the navigator.
3. Be the navigator and let someone else enjoy driving. Why should you be the only one?

[rhubarbpie]

Originally Posted by tummyman

Sign me up for bright orange and bright green like similar colors that are used for highway safety workers, etc. etc. Marine patrol should look at testing other colors to see if they work better.

I would have thought the same until I married someone colorblind. If you think red and black are hard, wait til someone colorblind tries to navigate red and green

[Winilyme]

Patterns might be the best solution of all. One marker is two or three distinctive horizontal stripes, the other no pattern at all. I’m pretty sure this would be easier to see in difficult lighting than specific colors.

[Rich]

I agree, but they have a long history and probably will never change.

It's too bad that they didn't also have a different shape to help distinguish between red and black tops, similar to the ocean red nun (cone top) shape and green (used to be black) can shape. The different shapes help you to distinguish between the two in poor lighting conditions as well has to help those that are color blind.

I suppose they could morph to new shapes and still keep the same colors, as this would be backwards compatible and not cause confusion with long term boaters.

How would the red tops be shaped differently to help in this regard?

A new shape or top placed on the red tops should be easy to do, easy to see and inexpensive to implement.

But my guess is that it would never happen.

[thinkxingu]

Few things freak me out more than finding I'm on the wrong side of a red at night but then, after a few moments of panic and waiting for the impending crunch, seeing the red on my right and realizing the black on my left is colored red by my port light.

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[persistence]

That was the case for me a few nights ago. My red light reflected a black market as a red. Kind of nerve racking.

Shapes would be a great idea! What is the actual history of the spar system?


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[garysanfran]

If you are navigating at night in unknown waters and you're only relying on site identification, I think time is not on your side before an "incident". You've got to have some sort of chart and a good spot light. The spotlight should alleviate reflection off your lights and should help greatly in identifying color. I use my spot even in known waters.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

If you are navigating at night in unknown waters and you're only relying on site identification, I think time is not on your side before an "incident". You've got to have some sort of chart and a good spot light. The spotlight should alleviate reflection off your lights and should help greatly in identifying color. I use my spot even in known waters.

I use a chart AND GPS, but the former doesn't tell you where you're at and the latter is only accurate to a certain extent. I don't like using a spot if possible because it messes up my, and others', night vision.

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[Tuckntruck]

Honestly, they should be reflective, and designated not only by red/black but also by shape.

If you are boating at night, I highly recommend the SiOnyx Aurora sport. Most nights it works pretty well. I’ll post a video from the 4th somewhere around 10:30-11pm. On a moonless night it doesn’t work as well, but still enough light from houses etc to ID stuff in the water.

(Apologies for the video, people were just using the camera to look around- so- it’s akin to a 1990’s camcorder video pointed at the ground etc. )

https://youtu.be/vaZtxqQ2y8s

[persistence]

That’s great! I got one too and a pocket flir. Most of my boating had been at night but not on the lake. I’ve heard if you fashion some sort of light to it, it helps in those moonless nights.

I’m in a shallow cove so really don’t venture out past sunset lol. I haven’t played with the SiOnyx much but it is a pretty handy thing to have aboard.

It’s so easy to lose your night vision but there’s nothing wrong with slowing down to collect your bearings, or even take a leisurely cruise

[AC2717]

How bout markers that are bigger than just a 2x4 if that

[Juiced06GTO]

Glad I am not the only one with this complaint! I think a different shape or addition to distinguish the markers from each other is the best/easiest solution to implement that could actually happen. We were out quite a bit during dusk this past week on vacation and it became very apparent that it was difficult to distinguish the colors during that time period. Maybe a simple solution would be to wrap some white tape around the black markers in a spiral so the whit contrasts with the water/sky a bit better?

[Tuckntruck]

Originally Posted by persistence

That’s great! I got one too and a pocket flir. Most of my boating had been at night but not on the lake. I’ve heard if you fashion some sort of light to it, it helps in those moonless nights.

I’m in a shallow cove so really don’t venture out past sunset lol. I haven’t played with the SiOnyx much but it is a pretty handy thing to have aboard.

It’s so easy to lose your night vision but there’s nothing wrong with slowing down to collect your bearings, or even take a leisurely cruise

LED Nav lights throw out a ton of IR, the Aurora will pick up a lot just with that. I usually just give it to the navigator, and have her give me a heads up if she sees something.

I do have a fandyfire IR flashlight that I can pair with this- that gets me quite a bit of illumination without blinding other boaters or killing night vision.

[ursa minor]

Originally Posted by Juiced06GTO

Glad I am not the only one with this complaint! I think a different shape or addition to distinguish the markers from each other is the best/easiest solution to implement that could actually happen. We were out quite a bit during dusk this past week on vacation and it became very apparent that it was difficult to distinguish the colors during that time period. Maybe a simple solution would be to wrap some white tape around the black markers in a spiral so the whit contrasts with the water/sky a bit better?

Great thought! In the days before the current PVC pipe spars wooden spars that tapered from roughly 4 x 4 to maybe 2" square at the very top were used, the tapering helped to float them upright I assume. All of the red and black spars were painted white with the corresponding color stripe about halfway up the visible part of the spar. They then added a band of reflective tape in the color band. These spars were way easier to see both night and day when they were in good condition. I assume the difference in cost of making and maintaining the wooden spars as compared to the current PVC ones was the determining factor. It would be great if they added the scotchbrite tape again though.

Edited to add: Solid red and black channel marker spars were painted entirely in the spar color but still had a reflective tape stripe to help see them at night if I'm remembering correctly.

[Woody38]

If in Woods Hole and Broadway beware the Red Right Returning. Next thing you know you're in trouble because things have changed and you are not returning. Every year someone unfamilular with the area or not paying attention to the chart or navigation aids, finds themself grounded or worse.

______________________________________

I am a retired workaholic and continnuing aquaholic

[znh]

I love even more how the 'No Wake' buoys and the 'Danger Rocks' buoys looks exactly the same!!!

[Phantom]

Not sure you all are aware (for night riding) - little know fact :

All Red Tops have a reflective (white) tape between the red & white of the marker.

[Barney Bear]

The old wood spar buoys had white reflecting tape on the black spar buoys and red reflecting tape on the red spars. When we were still working, most of our travel to and from East Bear Island was after dark. Our searchlight easily picked up these buoys. 🐻

[Patofnaud]

Small tidbit, did not see mentioned, my understanding is the red/black spars are the shape they are so that if they get caught at the ice in, they can slide down/trough the ice as it moves and not get dragged away and out of position.

That being said, even something as simple as a rubber post on the top of one or the other would help greatly when heading west into the sun. Anything to make the shadow 'different'. Even the best polarized sunglasses can't tell you if it is red or black when you get a trillion lumens behind it

And ditto to what others have said, nothing worse than trying to navigate a small channel with black non-reflective spars on a moonless sky and no light polution to help. I've bonked a black spar or two at crawling speed over the years. *oops*

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by Patofnaud

I've bonked a black spar or two at crawling speed over the years. *oops*

Funny you say that - on the 4th of July leaving Weirs area with all the rest parading towards Gov Isl bridge, instictively I STOPPED following the line of boats in front of me and veered hard left then redirected towards the bridge.

As it turns out, like mice, all were following each other well inside the black markers. Albeit it is not rocky- shows how people will just blindly follow - my isnstints & memory of the bridge approach sent signals “this is wrong”.

No GPS needed !!

[Patofnaud]

Originally Posted by Tuckntruck

Honestly, they should be reflective, and designated not only by red/black but also by shape.

If you are boating at night, I highly recommend the SiOnyx Aurora sport. Most nights it works pretty well. I’ll post a video from the 4th somewhere around 10:30-11pm. On a moonless night it doesn’t work as well, but still enough light from houses etc to ID stuff in the water.

(Apologies for the video, people were just using the camera to look around- so- it’s akin to a 1990’s camcorder video pointed at the ground etc. )

https://youtu.be/vaZtxqQ2y8s

Thanks for the tip on this. I've added it to my Amazon wish list.

Figure to mount it high on the bimini, then stream to my 10in Samsung Tab on the console.

Bit pricey on the post-launch pricing at $599 so will have to wait a bit for Santa to bring me one or the price drops a bit.

Edit: Santa coming early Found a return sold in original packaging fullfilled by and shipped by Amazon for under $400. I'll have it next week. Already have my tablet and mount(s) ready to stream night vision to my console. Thanks again for this tip.


Edit: Took the new toy out for a ride last night. Here is a vid I took out in Merideth Bay near FL1 at 8:30PM, no moon plenty of ambient light. https://youtu.be/arWWS8ZyMOw I'll post more to Youtube as I have fun and start a fresh night vision thread.