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05-03-2017, 11:00 AM | #1 |
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WOW Trail Phase 3 Heating up...
Looks like a battle is looming for Phase 3 of the WOW trail... Seems like battling in court would be a waste of time and money for the Southdown folks as the rail property is state owned and Southdown was sold to the City with the premise of a Rail Trail. Doesn't sound like a win to me...
Perhaps they would be better served taking that war chest of $$ they raised to fight the trail, and use it to make the trail design acceptable as it runs through Southdown. http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...32-wow-boycott Woodsy
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05-03-2017, 11:54 AM | #2 |
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Actually boycotting businesses for a purpose like this can be quite effective and is done a lot. That said, these types of trails always have detractors but usually end up very well done and become great assets to communities and abutters. If you don't want to be near something like this then do your homework and don't move near right of ways.
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05-03-2017, 01:40 PM | #3 |
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WOW Trail
I grew up in Laconia and now live in SD/LB. Even though I now live in SD/LB, I wouldn't want any more federal or state money be "invested" in the WOW trail. Let's be real, I drive by the WOW trail several times a day, and hardly ever see anyone on it. And if you read the police blotter, the WOW trail appears to be a popular place to buy drugs and to commit robberies. Couple that with the fact that it is inaccessible 5 or 6 months of the year make it a complete waste of money. Laconia should do what it has done best over the past decade, invest in Section 8 housing so we can attract the type of people it wants as residents. I heard/read somewhere that SD/LB generates $32M in tax revenue. What the heck, Laconia can just make us pay more.
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05-04-2017, 07:20 AM | #4 | |
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WOW trail is on the other side of the lake. Not sure where you got the idea that the WOW trail attract drugs.
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05-04-2017, 07:46 AM | #5 | |
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I don't think they're very serious about boycotting the O Steak and Seafood. I see a lot of South Down Shores people in there when we dine there. |
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05-04-2017, 08:00 AM | #6 |
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Seems to me that those millions could be put to better use than a seasonal walking trail. Phase one of the trail seems to be used very little except during perfect weather.
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05-04-2017, 09:06 AM | #7 |
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If the "M" is the standard abbreviation for "millia," Latin for thousand, then $32M would be barely anything. If the intent was to say $32 million, then I have to suspect what was "heard." Talking round numbers, if each property paid ten thousand per year in property tax, there would have to be 3200 properties so taxed for SD/LB to generate that much collectively. Whatever the total take is, how does the total tax take from SD/LB figure into the argument for or against the proposal?
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05-04-2017, 09:06 AM | #8 | |
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WOW Trail
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http://www.necn.com/news/new-england...377055721.html |
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05-04-2017, 09:12 AM | #9 | |
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Both communities now have over 600 property owners from many geographic areas who can call the Lakes Region “home”. Many are vacation home owners & semi-retirees and others are year round, permanent residents. Davidson’s ‘vision’ and hard work paid off immensely for the City of Laconia. Today both communities are valued over $114,000,000 by the assessor’s office and they contribute over $3.2 million annually to the City of Laconia’s tax revenue. That’s a lot of income which has helped the city construct a new police station, fire department, schools, parks and other amenities. Not only that but think of the economic impact these 600+ families have contributed to the Lakes Region. Many businesses have prospered because of these communities including general contractors, landscapers, lumber yards, furniture stores, boat, car & golf cart dealers, restaurants and even us REALTORS®… Still, $3.2 million is nothing to sneeze at. |
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05-04-2017, 09:16 AM | #10 |
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The point is . . .
My point is that the City has a spending problem, and looks to SD/LB as an important source of revenue to fund their "investments." In eight short years, my taxes have gone from $8K to $12.7K annually. Even with the tax cap, the City has a way of sticking it to the SD/LB residents.
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05-04-2017, 11:09 AM | #11 |
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Major...
I do agree with Laconia needing to look at Municipal Spending.... In 2009 the tax rate was $16.97 per thousand/assessed value. In 2017 the rate is $22.20 per thousand/assessed value. The tax rate has gone up $5.23 over 8 years or approx. .65/per thousand/per year. However... SD/LB doesn't pay any more than any other property in Laconia when it comes to funding the city's projects! I pay the same $22.20 per thousand you do! Woodsy
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05-04-2017, 11:16 AM | #12 | |
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05-04-2017, 11:46 AM | #13 | |
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Taxes
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05-04-2017, 12:49 PM | #14 |
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No..... they do not assess SD/LB at a higher rate! Your property increased in value... The increase in value of the property, coupled with the increase in the tax rate gives you your 59%...
Go on the MLS and look.... the cheapest property for sale in SD/LB is a 1200 sq/ft condo for $235K. Not counting lots for sale.. I counted 12 properties that when averaged out (including the $235K property) equaled an average price of $436K... There are only 2 properties listed under $300K! So while I am happy for you that you got in a good price... I don't feel bad for you or anyone else when your property increases in value! Woodsy
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05-04-2017, 01:58 PM | #15 | |
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Taxes
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I grew up here, and I have friends and family who own homes throughout Laconia. Our home and my neighbors' homes in SD/LB are assessed close to what we might be able to sell them for. I follow Vision Appraisal, and from what I can tell, family and friends outside of SD/LB are assessed 70-75% of sale values. I can provide you many examples. I get your point, but I think they have their thumb on the scale with respect to SD/LB. Just my opinion. |
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05-04-2017, 02:40 PM | #16 |
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Major...
The math is pretty simple.... In 2009 Laconia's tax rate was $16.97 per thousand assessed. So If you paid $8000 in taxes in 2009 your house was valued at approx. $471,500. $8000/$16.97 = $471,420 In 2017 Laconia's tax rate is $22.20 per thousand assessed. So if your house value didn't change... 471.42 x 22.20 = $10,465.52 tax bill (31% increase) So if your taxes have gone up 59% ($8000 x .59 = $4720) they jumped from $8000 to $12,720. So the difference lies in your appraised value. $12,720/22.20 = $572,972 tax assessed value.... 21.5% increase in home value over the 8 years. If you think you are being unfairly assessed, you should definitely appeal to the town... (I certainly would) My guess is with median average for sale in Southdown being $436K, you probably aren't going to win. Southdown/Long Bay is a victim of its own success. PS... My condo in the Weirs is assessed at 90% value. Per the state laws. Woodsy
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05-04-2017, 07:55 PM | #17 |
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As I always say to folks....
that moves to Laconia and complain, there are plenty of estate to move elsewhere!
Laconia was here long before SD/LB. So don't go telling Laconia what they can or can not do!
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05-05-2017, 06:36 AM | #18 |
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Sd/lb
Last time I checked, I am a resident of Laconia and have the same right as other residents to express my displeasure about City money going towards the WOW trail. Make no mistake, even if Federal and State (and private) monies are provided to construct the trail, Laconia will be obligated to pay for its maintenance.
My hope is that the WOW trail proponents take SD/LB's offer to re-route the WOW trail around the periphery of the development. Otherwise, it appears that the WOW trail will be wasting a lot of its capital in fighting the issue in court. |
05-05-2017, 07:21 AM | #19 |
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Why should they re-route the trail around a development that was sold to the city with the rail trail as part of the plan?
The state owns the right of way.... Not SD/LB. Why not work with the WOW trail to pick out a nice fencing option? Woodsy
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05-05-2017, 08:01 AM | #20 |
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The incentive for the proponents of the WOW trail to work with SD/LB is to avoid costly litigation. Who is right or wrong really has little impact on how disputes are resolved. (Things like monetary resources, stomach for litigation, etc., have as much influence on litigation results.) The proponents on the WOW trail can spend a lot of their capital on litigation to prove that it has the right of way, or instead work with the residents of SD/LB to re-route the trail. We'll see what happens. At the end of the day, whether the trail is built or not won't have a lot impact on my life. I just think it's a colossal waste of money.
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05-05-2017, 08:18 AM | #21 | |
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05-05-2017, 08:22 AM | #22 |
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This is where the law gets frustrating to me. If the SD properties were sold with a ROW--and ESPECIALLY if with the rail trail plans included--there shouldn't even be legal proceedings. If, on the other hand, the ROW was not disclosed, that's an issue.
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05-05-2017, 08:38 AM | #23 |
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Jeff, unfortunately, that's how litigation works. It may be a colossal waste of money for the SD/LB owners, but spread across 600 units, the cost isn't that much. If the goal is to have a trail that people can enjoy, why can't the WOW trail folks consider re-routing the trail? It seems like a win-win.
Thinking, I'm not sure when the rail trail was first proposed. The first units in SD/LB were built around 1985. Anyway, I don't see much upside in debating the issue. I think we will all have to wait and see how it plays out. Either way, it won't be the end of the world if it's built or if it's not built. That said, I don't see either side giving in. |
05-05-2017, 08:39 AM | #24 | |
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The typical action to getting caught out with unexpected problems is legal action. You may not have a leg to stand on but it doesn't mean you can't create a legal blizzard, especially if you band together with others who share your interest. And, I can truly share the SD folks concern. I owned a property along the Merrimack in Hudson, NH. The deed provided a ROW for a walking path if the town ever got around to building it. I accepted the reality of it and decided if they did build it, I would push for a barrier (bushes?) to be constructed as well to provide a bit of separation from my property. It never came to pass but the possibility was there. |
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05-05-2017, 08:55 AM | #25 |
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The original plans for SD way back in the 80's had the rail trail in the plans.... Now its coming to fruition and SD/LB is taking a NIMBY approach... Not too cool in my book but whatever, like Major said bury them with lawyers!
That being said.... it go really bad for SD/LB. 1st... any lawsuit could be rejected by a judge because of the state owned ROW and it was included in original plans... SD/LB ends up spending a bunch of money for nothing and may have to pay the WOW lawyers. 2nd.... Nuclear option... State plays hardball and doesn't renew lease to cross Railroad ROW... yup SD/LB lease that land. SD/LB loses water access, and loses a bunch of property value and $$$ spent. (The state is under no legal obligation to renew any lease for any reason) IMHO, SD/LB should take the money they are going to use to fight the WOW trail and instead use it to make the WOW trail more acceptable to them (fence design, trail materials, shrubbery, landscaping etc) Woodsy
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05-05-2017, 02:21 PM | #26 |
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I live on a 4 acre wooded lot. I love it because it is so private. Our neighbor's are having 40 trees cut down on their lot. They can cut right up to our property line. So much for privacy!!! People move to the country from the suburbs and they still want the suburbs.
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05-05-2017, 02:23 PM | #27 | |
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05-05-2017, 05:17 PM | #28 | ||
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If privacy was an issue, why on earth would you build/buy in a community such as SD/LB? It's not like they are building a highway around your home. It is a bike path/walking trail. Instead of wasting money on litigation, BUILD A WALL. 30 feet high made of concrete should suffice! |
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05-05-2017, 06:10 PM | #29 |
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A review of the plan (Plan Book 141 Page 19) shows that SD does not own the land that the RR tracks are on and that it is owned by the State. The State has owned that land longer than SD has been in existence or even a dream. The SD plan would not show a proposed rail trail as it is not part of or on their property. Good luck fighting this - I think you will be donating your money to a very smart and savy attorney who will gladly take it off your hands, as much as you wish to waste.
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05-05-2017, 08:24 PM | #30 |
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In a few years, you'll want to sell your property and the Realtor listing will brag that you are adjacent to the WOW trail.
As a separate issue if you think SD is over assessed, hire a professional to dispute the assessments. Businesses do this all the time, especially when there is no locally comparable business. There are professionals who do this on a commission basis. You could also look at other tax rates around the state and realize that $22-23 may not be out of line for comparable cities/towns. |
05-07-2017, 12:07 PM | #31 |
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Two points.
Phase 1 was paid for (100%?) by ARRA funding. Phase 2 had a substantial amount of TIF money ($400K+) dedicated to the revitalization of downtown Laconia, so that money did not come from the tax revenues as a whole, but from a special assessment paid by downtown properties. A significant amount of the funding for the WOW trail has come from private donations. Certainly the City has agreed to maintain the trail as a linear park. I'm not sure when Major has viewed the trail, but it is used considerably, by all kinds of people. Second point. I have recently been on the Shining Sea Trail on Cape Cod. It abuts many residential properties. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that many or most of those abutters complained that the trail was going to destroy their privacy and lead to an increase in loitering and property crime. That didn't happen, in fact, just about every single property abutting the trail has it's own pathway that the owner has cut to access it. My prediction is that SD/LB will be have a similar experience. They will use the trail for exercise and for access to downtown Laconia and the Weirs on a dedicated pedestrian-bicycle path without having to jump into their cars, like virtually every trail of this type that has been built. |
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05-07-2017, 04:39 PM | #32 |
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We owned in SDS for 10 years, most other owners I spoke with about the WOW trail over the years were not opposed to the trail itself so much as the stupid/ugly chainlink fence that comes with it.
A good number of South Down properties are rentals, and it is not really like there is strict security to get in the front gate, thus most owners there are not under the impression it is some private gilded oasis that is built to keep the general public away. I think much of the concern is that the trail won't be maintained and will end up as more of an eyesore than something that is fully utilized.
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05-07-2017, 05:25 PM | #33 | |
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I agree. I also owned in SD/LB for 10 years. Moving to Meredith Bay. many residents really have 3 concerns 1) security/ including use of the facility by non owners 2) property values 3) the fence My feelings are over time the values will actually increase after an initial downturn, as long as the fence is esthetically pleasing with easy access to get to the on water amenities in the community and lastly especially in season the continue to monitor the beaches and pool as they are done now the WOW Trail will end up being a tremendous asset and selling point for the community. Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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05-08-2017, 06:16 AM | #34 |
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Fencing
Phase I does have a chain linked fence and the reason for that was federal safety rules and regulations as the track is considered active. Phase II has a combination pleasing metal picket fence and wood railing. This is due to changes in regulation result of feedback. I urge you to take a walk on Phase II and enjoy the new fences. Phase II connect to the Belmont Trail that brings you near Mosquito Bridge. I wonderful walk.
Belmont plans will eventually connect to the Tilton trail. From there the possibility of biking/hiking to Concord or Hanover is planned. There is preliminary planning in Meredith about building a rail trail from downtown Meredith down to the Weirs. This is really exciting!
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05-08-2017, 08:22 AM | #35 | |
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05-08-2017, 08:37 AM | #36 |
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Another thing to consider is the effect on wild life that can no longer reach the water. Even though there is much development on that shore, there is also a lot of woodland. The area around Pickerel Cove is mostly a large wooded area.
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05-08-2017, 09:43 AM | #37 | |
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WOW Trail
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Anyway, from the comments, it appears that SD/LB is not winning the vote of popular opinion. I'm against it not necessarily because of my affiliation with SD/LB, but because I think it's a waste of money. Even if funding is available from federal, state and private sources to build phase III, the City will ultimately have to maintain it. I think our money could be better spent on other things. |
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05-08-2017, 10:23 AM | #38 |
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I don't have a Dog in the fight, however I DO agree it is/was/and will be a total waste of money. Just another feel good moment. No facts here just a common sense approach..... Dollars spent on the WOW trail ( from where ever ) vs The amount of people who use it. Just Financially doesn't make sense. Could have built a glass bridge over Paugus Bay and really had a view.
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05-08-2017, 02:27 PM | #39 |
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I Do not have a dog in the fight either, but I have proposed many times putting it on union ave with the businesses to generate foot traffic and use the already way to wide sidewalks then up lake street and down weirs blvd up the road to the weirs, most of this area having plenty of room for the space of a trial, it will generate much more use and be better for the town and all those involved, not to mention it will go right by the visitor center as well.
side note that will bring it right by my doorstep
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05-08-2017, 02:28 PM | #40 | |
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This just in . . .
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I encourage anyone concerned about their safety on the WOW trail to contact the Laconia Police Department. I hope this helps. |
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05-08-2017, 02:47 PM | #41 | |
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Environmental Concerns
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1. The railroad ties are treated with creosote. The City of Laconia recently had to do a cleanup near a ball field due to creosote, and it was considered a hazardous site. The creosote leaches into the soil, so any construction will likely release the creosote into the lake. 2. There is a regulation that there can’t be any construction, grading changes or landscape changes within 150’ of the lake. Everyone is held to this restriction, including the proposed WOW Trail. |
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05-08-2017, 04:21 PM | #42 | |
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If the State/City does now own the ROW then they should take it by Eminent Domain! It seems that would be cheaper than allowing the .5%ers to dictate what the state should do with property that WE already own. |
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05-08-2017, 04:46 PM | #43 | |
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If it's not the SPA, what regulation are you referring to? |
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05-08-2017, 04:47 PM | #44 |
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Sd/lb
Outdoorsman, your solution doesn't solve the creosote issue or the 150' rule. Also, you think too highly of the residents at SD/LB. The 0.5%ers are at Grouse Point! Have you ever been in SD/LB? It's nice but let's not get carried away!
I was reminded today that although SD/LB gets a lot of press, we are not the only community against the WOW trail. Paugus Park, Breakwater, Nature’s View, Meredith Bay, and Grouse Point are all against the WOW trail. Let's see what happens. Hopefully clearer heads will prevail. |
05-08-2017, 04:52 PM | #45 | |
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05-08-2017, 05:31 PM | #46 |
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You are grasping at straws.... The railroad ties and their creosote have been there for a 100 years. The WOW trail will not impact the rail line so that's a moot point. They aren't digging up and relocating the rail line.
As far as construction within 150' of the lake... it happens all the time. WOW will require DES to sign off on the project... if they haven't given preliminary approval already. The harsh reality is the State/people of NH own the railroad right of way AND the shoreline. SD/LB was proposed to the city with the possibility of a rail trail. The nuclear option would not be good for SD/LB or any of the other communities... it would be way better for all if an acceptable compromise on fencing & access could be achieved. Woodsy
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05-08-2017, 05:45 PM | #47 |
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Phase 1 and 2 are already along Winnisquam and Winnipesaukee River and DES obviously had no issues there so why would they with Pagaus Bay?
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05-08-2017, 06:07 PM | #48 | |
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05-08-2017, 08:28 PM | #49 | |
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Really? The paving and fencing was along the river prior to "construction " of the WOW Trail? News to me. Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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05-09-2017, 07:14 AM | #50 | |
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05-09-2017, 07:37 AM | #51 | |
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Yes it does go along Opeechee and Winnisquam I have been down both phases so again the DES had no issues with these so I don't think they will be a stumbling block for phase 3. That will come from the abutting communities. Although I know someone mentioned Meredith Bay was against the trail but I know for a fact they have not taken any public or official opinion on the trail. Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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05-09-2017, 07:47 AM | #52 |
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To the best of my knowledge, the only community that has made a public stand against the WOW trail is SD/LB.
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05-10-2017, 11:27 AM | #53 | |
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There would be a chain link or high fence as Southdown/Long Bay have docks 56 in Southdown/Marina and 1 beach. Long Bay has a Marina/docks and 2 beaches so fencing would go up to keep the liability down. Liability insurance would be huge from what I heard plus the fact that the private communities do not feel like hosting folks just strolling into their lawns. Were not talking 10 families and 40 people more then 2500 +/- people reside there during the year. On a side note the trail is going over or near Pickering cove north of Long Bay/SDS shores near the railroad tracks and the right of way is only 5 feet wide and stretches for 1/4 of a mile. The causeway near/over the water would have to be built up at a huge cost in that community/area. Laconia is in a precocious position as a huge amount of the residential tax valuation/base comes from LB and SDS with 660 houses and condos. I am long time Laconia resident and happen to live in that area. The trail could be devised to make people content but will probably be tied up in the courts for years. Last edited by laketrout; 05-10-2017 at 12:49 PM. |
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05-10-2017, 01:14 PM | #54 | |
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05-10-2017, 01:58 PM | #55 | |
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The fence design is a negotiable thing.... it does not have to be an ugly chain link fence. On some parts of the existing WOW trail its a pretty nice post & beam design. Certainly that design or something similar should be acceptable. There is no liability for Southdown as the property in question is owned by the State of NH. Also there is a provision in NH State law that absolves owners of liability when their land is used recreationally by the public. It is this law that keeps snowmobile & ATV trails open to the public. Laconia is not in a precarious position tax-wise with regards to SD/LB... any possible devaluation of the SD/LB tax base would take years to show up. There are 600+ houses/condos and there are only 12-14 for sale with an avg price of approx. $436K. Not a huge turnover. Traditionally Rail Trails have added value to a community not devalued a community. IMHO, I think SD/LB is in the precarious position... the nuclear option of NH not renewing their waterfront lease would be most detrimental to all involved. Woodsy
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05-10-2017, 03:21 PM | #56 |
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Crime and Property Values
Interesting Article: Property values and crime are to be considered.
http://citizenreviewonline.org/2010/...ost_crime.html |
05-21-2017, 04:21 PM | #57 | |
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With Miles of private land and boat docks and marinas on eithe side of the proposed trail, there is room for Liability and other issues. When 660 residences in your city speak up its time to listen. |
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06-01-2017, 07:24 AM | #58 |
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First Shot Fired....
That didn't take long....... Not sure how they think a lawsuit will somehow force the state's hand. It would set very dangerous legal precedent.
http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx...n-file-lawsuit Woodsy
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06-01-2017, 12:10 PM | #59 |
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According to the article, the associations were instituted with the understanding that the path would be built? And now they'll not only burn their owners' and taxpayers' funds in litigation but maybe risk the continued ROW access? Very interesting case for sure.
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06-01-2017, 01:28 PM | #60 | |
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06-02-2017, 02:50 PM | #61 |
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I believe everything will be shown very clearly on the maps or charts ( I'm so confused LOL ) that the State owns. This will be in court for some time. Good for south Down shores for sticking to their guns on this. As I have mentioned earlier IMO this is a TOTAL waste of money. Seems everyone is fine with it UNLESS it's in your backyard. Out of site...out of mind.
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06-03-2017, 09:29 AM | #62 |
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The thought of a waterfront fence from Lakeport to the Weirs absolutely gives me the chills.
I don't understand how anyone who cares about the stewardship of our lakes would want to do that........but why stop there. Lets go on to Squam. |
06-04-2017, 07:02 AM | #63 |
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This morning for the first time I ran the complete WOW Trail. Full disclosure I was a resident of Long Bay for 10 years and pretty much against the trail. It was extremely nice with several access points and the split rail fencing towards the Belmont line was esthetically pleasing. Very well kept and only saw 4 pieces of trash along the whole way. If done correctly it may not be as bad as most think.
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06-04-2017, 10:06 PM | #64 | |
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trfour Always Remember, The Best Safety Device In The Boat, or on a PWC Snowmobile etc., Is YOU! Safe sledding tips and much more; http://www.snowmobile.org/snowmobiling-safety.html |
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06-05-2017, 06:32 AM | #65 | |
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WOW Trail Phase 3 Heating up...
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Speaking about "most" as far as those opposing the next phase including those in South Down and Long Bay. Also have mixed feeling about suing the DOT. Going to make future cooperation with the DOT and city of Laconia when other issues in those communities arise and their assistance is needed Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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06-05-2017, 10:09 AM | #66 | |
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Do you think the state and/or city of Laconia want to immediately decrease the value of every property in there by 10-20%? Additionally, if access was rescinded in what seemed to be a matter of spite it could give South Down a stronger position in the end (though at a higher legal cost).
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06-05-2017, 11:46 AM | #67 | |
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WOW Trail
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It is my understanding from two separate sources that the WOW Trail powerbrokers are putting pressure on the railroad to shut it down between Lakeport and the Weirs. Insuring the safety of the WOW Trail users could be a very expensive proposition, and it isn't clear as to who is responsible. |
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06-05-2017, 12:04 PM | #68 |
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Obv, the state limiting SD/LB waterfront access would be the nuclear option, not preferable to anyone. However, A tax devaluation would take years to see as its based on sales comps. I seriously doubt you would see a 20% reduction in values and a likewise reduction in Laconia's tax base.
The lawsuit, IMHO is fragile at best. The gist of the lawsuit is SD/LB are trying to tell the state what it can/cannot do with state owned property. That is a very slippery slope and a win by SD/LB would set a HUGE legal precedent that would ripple thru the state. I don't see any judge signing off on a private citizens association telling the state what it can or cannot do... I don't think the lawsuit will be allowed to go too far forward. If this was an eminent domain lawsuit you would have a much better chance. IMHO SD/LB would be better off using their $$ to negotiate an acceptable fence and path design. Woodsy
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06-05-2017, 12:11 PM | #69 |
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here is a link that shows the RR ROW for those who want to see what is in question... you will have to zoom in on Paugus Bay. As you can see SD/LB/various yacht clubs owns very little of the waterfront and they have to cross the state RR ROW to get there....
https://www.axisgis.com/LaconiaNH/ Woodsy
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06-05-2017, 04:07 PM | #70 | |
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That's much different than the land being owned by various property owners along the route and the RR having a ROW. So if the state owns the land and the properties along the RR have specific ROWs, then there isn't much anyone can do on either side. If the state did put up a fence it would have to have access to those ROWs. Given that it seems money better spent would be on both parties agreeing on the aesthetics/maintenance of access to ROWs/etc. Only winner here is going to be the lawyers. |
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06-05-2017, 04:48 PM | #71 | |
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Absolutely Agree
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06-06-2017, 08:35 AM | #72 | |
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Personally (IANAL), I think the very long delay on getting the trail built works in South Down's favor, it is like the inverse of Adverse Possession concepts. Yes, there was a stated plan for a trail when the ROW was granted, but after a certain amount of time (30 years!) goes by with no trail, and certain aspects of the community, and its draw for owners, develops around the fact that there is no trail/fence/access hindrance, you can understand why people are opposed to it. It would be different, IMO, if SD were attempting to block access to a proposed emergency services road construction, or a similar thing that would have clear, proven benefit to the community at large. You also cannot deny some of the crime and other issues around Laconia, again, making resistance to easy access into the community understandable. The WOW trail is at least partly being presented as something that will give "the people" freer access to the lakes/shoreline, and that is a noble cause, however the state effectively allowed the current situation where much of the shoreline is privately owned (and, not getting into side-debates about technical access to shorline areas, just saying that much of the property abutting the shore is privately owned). Trying to now compensate for selling off access by implementing a walking trail with undetermined impact on some communities is really not a balanced approach.
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06-06-2017, 09:10 AM | #73 |
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I'm not sure a ROW for public use purposes has a time limit.
If it was for private use, say me using a property for access and never exercising it, maybe an argument could be made for forfeiting my access right. I doubt the same would be true for public purposes which often stretch out over decades. Further, the possible damages are speculative, possibly even unlikely. A well planned and tasteful path and fencing need not have significant impact on the adjacent properties. Other area on the WOW trail don't have problems with criminal activity. Unproven worries are not a basis for solid decision making. If I lived there, I would certainly want a place at the table as decisions are made but I don't think NO! is a workable answer. |
06-06-2017, 09:17 AM | #74 | |
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06-06-2017, 09:18 AM | #75 |
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Alternate route
Wouldn't it save a lot of time money and aggravation if they were to alter the route to come up Elm Street, then bypass south down shores on Parade Road and turn down Severance Road to pick up the snowmobile trail that goes through the state forest back down to the lake. Everybody wins
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06-06-2017, 09:18 AM | #76 | |
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Publicly, the Laconia Police will take the position that the WOW Trail has minimal criminal activity. Privately, they will tell you otherwise. The WOW Trail is an avenue of egress to crimes occurring in downtown Laconia. Crime is definitely prevalent. SD/LB concerns about crime are not unproven or unfounded, but based on facts. |
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06-06-2017, 09:22 AM | #77 | |
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Great Suggestion
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06-06-2017, 09:26 AM | #78 | |
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06-06-2017, 10:05 AM | #79 | |
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Disagree
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06-06-2017, 11:25 AM | #80 |
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The whole purpose of a Rail Trail is to separate people from vehicles as much as possible. They are hugely successful in other parts of NH and many, many other states!
Rerouting the rail trail to city streets just accommodate some private development seems silly to me and sets a dangerous precedent. Especially when that private development was sold to the city with the rail trail as part of the plan... This is a case of NIMBY pure and simple. The winners here will be the lawyers. The reality is, the general public isn't going to feel bad for people who own homes in a wealthy gated community who want to limit public access to publicly owned land. SD/LB will ultimately lose the lawsuit, but like the speed limit it will cause some serious divisions. It already is and that is kind of sad. Woodsy
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06-06-2017, 12:07 PM | #81 |
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Sd/lb
Jeff, to quote a great American presidential candidate "at this point in time what difference does this make." Whether crime was more or less prior to the WOW Trail has no impact on what it is now. We know that between 2010 and 2016, a six year period, there were 132 reported incidents that required police investigation. Some were very serious. My suspicion is that crime was less prior to the WOW Trail since the use of opioids has exploded the last several years. However, this is just a guess.
Woodsy, you think SD/LB is a "wealthy" community? I agree it's very nice, but for the most part the condos are very modest and most of the homes are modest. No one is going to confuse SD/LB with Governor's Island or Grouse Point for that matter. The primary reason why SD/LB is gated is because the residents like to drive golf carts. That's one of the reasons why the roads were never turned over to the City. |
06-06-2017, 01:11 PM | #82 |
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Crime?
I would suggest that there may be more questionable activity in parts of the trail that go through some areas of Laconia but not others just like there is more crime in general in some areas of Laconia rather than others. If the trail is fully completed one day will the crime in Laconia transfer to Meredith just because a trail connects them? I rather doubt it. Do criminals in Laconia make a habit of driving over to South Down? It's not all that far. I suspect they don't. They prefer to stay on their own turf and in areas that are not as wide open where their activity might be seen. South Down is pretty wide open and not easy to hide in. I suspect the people there know their neighbors and would quickly report any strangers hanging around. It wouldn't be a welcoming area for criminals and they would know it.
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06-06-2017, 01:43 PM | #83 | |
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06-06-2017, 01:47 PM | #84 |
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So then your position is that since there is already crime no concern should be given to changes that might INCREASE crime? If I have misinterpreted your comment please clarify, thanks!
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06-06-2017, 01:56 PM | #85 |
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Statistically speaking, I don't think it has a time limit either. It would not be to the state's benefit to put auto-expiration clauses on ROW grants, or similar exceptions based on future use potential.
However, like many things legal, events over time often cause things to be reevaluated and for parties to realize that language was not specific enough, other precedents or decisions in tangential lawsuits come into play, etc. SD/LB has changed a lot in character over time. Look at some of the early buildings vs. later ones, it appears, to me, that it started as more of a simple/affordable community and morphed over time into one that contains more and more higher-valued properties. Some of those property owners may have built elsewhere or chosen to alter their plans had they anticipated a 30 year old dormant easement to suddenly be put to use. I am not saying that fully justifies the opposition, but it does impact things (IMO). When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?
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06-06-2017, 01:59 PM | #86 | |
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Sd/lb
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Much like politics, I don't think either side is going to win over the other side. From my perspective, I hope funding for Phase III never materializes. I think the WOW Trail's $5-10 million estimate is absurdly low. There are issues with the stretch between Pickerel and Perch Ponds, as well with navigating under the Weirs Beach Bridge. Who knows, maybe the litigation will force a compromise. Stranger things have happened. |
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06-06-2017, 02:07 PM | #87 | |
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06-06-2017, 02:11 PM | #88 | |
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Sd/lb
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06-06-2017, 02:17 PM | #89 |
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06-06-2017, 02:18 PM | #90 | |
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Sometimes it's not what can happen on YOUR property that you need to be aware of; it's what can happen on your NEIGHBOR'S property. Suppose a neighbor's property was zoned commercial (yours is not) and poof, suddenly they sell and a business is being built in your back yard and there is not a lot you can do about it except maybe to get some buffering put in. Unless you really dug into the real estate situation in the area, you probably would never see it coming. Most of us just aren't that careful. I think that is what is happening here. |
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06-06-2017, 02:38 PM | #91 |
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When we purchased in South Down (2006), I do not recall seeing any clauses, deed restrictions, etc. that mentioned this ROW existing and being earmarked for a public trail and associated fences to be built through the community. Should potential buyers have been made aware of how the common area property, and the community at large, could be impacted? Are there other precedents in similar circumstances?[/QUOTE]
When I purchased in 2006 in SD before moving to LB, my broker provided me with copies of the original declaration along with the SD by-laws. The ROW is in there but also my broker discussed it with us before signing our purchase contract. Your broker at the time should have made you aware or at least provided all the HOA documents |
06-06-2017, 03:05 PM | #92 |
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I think the due diligence unfortunately falls on the buyer...
The buyer(s) in SD/LB probably knew about the RR ROW, as it is a physical landmark. I seriously doubt that most buyers were aware or were made aware that the RR ROW extends to the water for most of the shoreline, and that property did not belong to SD/LB. The only way to know would be to look at the plot plans/tax map for SD/LB that I listed above. I am sure no RE Agent would point that out and possibly lose a sale. Its a pretty crappy situation for sure! I can see SD/LB taking issue with the fencing, I wouldn't want a 6' high chain link fence there either. However that's a negotiation, not a lawsuit. Especially where there is some very nice low post & beam fencing in other areas of the WOW trail. In the winter, the state allows snowmobiles/cross country skiers/hikers etc. to use the RR ROW as a connecting corridor trail. Public use/access utilizing the RR ROW thru SD/LB is already approved by the state. I am sure that was a surprise to some unsuspecting buyers too. So arguing against further public access is probably pretty futile as the state has ALWAYS allowed it. Woodsy
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06-07-2017, 05:44 AM | #93 | |
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06-07-2017, 09:30 AM | #94 |
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Good point
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06-07-2017, 11:30 AM | #95 |
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I have watched this back and forth, pro and con on this thread and know this is a very decisive issue. I have experience with the Minuteman bike trail that runs from Bedford MA, thru Lexington, Arlington and ends at Alewife in Cambridge.
First off, as others have said, many people did not want the trail built, or saw a need for it. Now, it is a selling point for neighborhoods all along the trail and it is a major recreation and commuter way and has spurred multiple Retail stops along the way. Whether we do not want the trail in our back yard or think it is a waste of money, we have to understand that many people want these trails and are willing to pay for them. Yes this means in most cases we all pay for them through our taxes. The Minuteman trail ends near the middle of Bedford MA, but the old railroad bed continues to Concord and a National Wildlife refuge. Concord and the Feds have little desire for the paved trail to continue in their jurisdiction, so it was a surprise to some of us when it was proposed at town meeting to enhance the trail and pave it the rest of the way to the Concord line. I personally had an issue with dumping a lot of people on a busy road with only mountain bikes and walkers able to continue along the old dirt RR bed. I was on a committee that could block the primary proposed Funding from even reaching the Town Meeting floor; but we realized that many people wanted this so we voted to allow it to go to Town Meeting. There was discussion at TM but it passed with 2/3rds vote. It is still a long process as funds were approved for partial design and that has been going on for over 5 years. Is it expensive, YES, but I think the trail will be good for the area like these trails have been across the region and the country. My advice to the 2 communities in opposition to the trail would be to save your money and use it to work with the WOW trail for better fencing, screening and access options. We have done this with other municipal projects and it can be done with benefits to everyone. It could be as simple as covering the extra cost for a darker or better style fence. |
06-07-2017, 01:18 PM | #96 |
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Golf carts
They should allow golf carts on the trail, might sway some opinion, being able to drive from south down the weirs to Meredith on a cart sounds like fun. Kind of shrink the community's and tie them together. Just a thought.
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06-07-2017, 01:50 PM | #97 |
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That's what they do in many over 55 villages in Florida, such as The Villages that is a huge community where the main mode of transportation is the golf cart, but in this case I do not think it would be very safe for the walkers, cyclists and runners
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06-07-2017, 02:33 PM | #98 | |
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I would also say like you said in Florida it is very common to mix carts with everything else, even on the street with cars. Even here south down, Meredith Bay, Grosse point, they mix the two. The cart path from Meredith Bay to Akwa mixes the two at a very steep grade and is still safe for pedestrians. Don't get me wrong I know it will never happen but if the wow trail had to happen this would make it cool. Fun to talk about. (side note, still wish the tracks had a pedestrian trolley) |
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06-07-2017, 02:54 PM | #99 |
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Grouse Point
Grouse Point has steep grades too. When my parents lived there, a 12-year old girl died rolling a golf cart down a steep embankment. Kind of off topic, but golf carts, while fun, can be dangerous on steep hills.
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06-07-2017, 03:23 PM | #100 | |
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I think it would be awesome to take the golf cart to the weirs or Meredith. Wishful thinking. Sent from my iPhone using Winnipesaukee Forum mobile app |
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