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12-27-2005, 04:35 PM | #1 |
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Citizen Article - The Other Side
Here's the other side of the story from those who oppose House Bill 162:
http://www.citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll...055/-1/CITIZEN |
12-27-2005, 05:52 PM | #2 |
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Not all people love the "Miami Vice" quality that Lake Winnipesaukee seems to be turning into. Many people love the peace and tranquility that the lake has to offer. I look at it like a pendulum. It seems to have swung real far to the left (or right depending on your political persuasion) and the natural progression is for it to start swinging back the other way now..it's just what happens in life I've noticed in my short 41 years here on earth. Things get pushed real far to one side and soon enough there's no more room and the pendulum has to swing back!
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12-28-2005, 07:20 PM | #3 |
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"If I had a canoe or kayak...
"If I had a canoe or kayak I'd sure as hell take it to another lake to enjoy it." Well, excuuuuuuuse me, but that is one humdinger of a line. If this were a political campaign with tv ads with one-liners, that would be a good line for the speed limit supporters to publicize.
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12-28-2005, 07:34 PM | #4 |
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Thanks for posting. Its nice to see an article against hb 162
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12-28-2005, 07:46 PM | #5 | |
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There is also this quote from Jack Irwin. "It's not Golden Pond ... if that's what you want then that's where you have to go. Winnipesaukee is an exciting lake and that's why people come here," Their complaint is that performance boats are being forced off the lake. Yet at the same time they are suggesting this is not the place for human powered craft. This article does more to hurt their cause than help it. But they probably don't see that. |
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12-28-2005, 08:35 PM | #6 |
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Lets face it, this is a big lake and there is room for all but being that it is a big lake there are places that in my opinion kayaks or canoes should not go. Not due to boats or speed, simply weather/water conditions. We have all seen days when the broads are as rough or even rougher than the ocean. I personally saw numerous small skiffs, sunfish, kayakers and canoes that were far out in the lake on days where they should have stayed near shore. On two occasions we rescued people on flipped over sunfish and lasers on extremely rough, windy days near Diamond. They had no right being there...For their own safety that is. Sailboaters are not invincible!
I enjoy canoes and kayaks (although do not care for blowboats) and if people use common sense on both sides there is room for all. If these were my preferred method of transportation on the lake I would pick and choose my routes carefully. I would guess that accidents in small craft such as these are equal if not greater than larger boats, I am sure a simple search on the forum would substantiate this. Stop blaming GFBL's for running people off the lake! |
12-28-2005, 09:29 PM | #7 |
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If I may clarify, which you all may or may not care to hear.
"If I had a canoe or kayak I'd sure as hell take it to another lake to enjoy it." I was talking about using canoes or kayaks on busy weekends. I said I sure as hell wouldn't use one on a weekend, I would take it some place less crowded and/or more peaceful. And I clarified it with an example, that I don't ride my motorcyle in Boston, I would choose to use it in back country roads instead. And Island Lover, that is correct, there are times on weekends, places on the lake or depending on weather when I don't think it is safe to use canoes or kayaks on the lake. Any issue with that? Hurt, ooch! Guess you didn't like the facts that were presented, huh? See what, must be over my head? |
12-28-2005, 09:58 PM | #8 |
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wrong time and place for canoes
http://www.winnipesaukee.com/photopo...&ppuser=9&sl=i
I don't think any law will make Winnipesaukee safe for everyone at all times. Unless you think we can outlaw wind? That law would get my full support. |
12-29-2005, 08:16 AM | #9 | |
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Many Thanks!!!!
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12-29-2005, 02:40 PM | #10 | |
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Key Word - Excitement
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Perhaps you can ask the Citizen to print a retraction? |
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12-29-2005, 03:21 PM | #11 | |
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12-29-2005, 04:19 PM | #12 | |
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Absurd!?
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bigot n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own Before you start name calling seems it is your side that seems a bit intolerant of the majorities opinion. I am still waiting for your side to make a intelligent argument to support their side other the absurd. Live Free or Die We have noise laws The 150 foot rule Enforceability None of those address the issue of SPEED! That IS the issue. Get it? I am sure you do not. |
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12-29-2005, 04:56 PM | #13 | |
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12-29-2005, 08:05 PM | #14 |
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jdeer
Slower is not always safer. There are minimum speed limits on land and in the air. Hydralic steering made my boat safe to run at speeds in excess of 100mph safely. Yes I am a thrill seeker, but only at my expense, not others. Have you ever seen the adds for the arts? The same could be made for adrenalin. It is a realy good feeling having that stuff running through my veins. I do kayak, sail and watch the sunset, but when the wind is blowing hard out in the broads, I feel safe at WOT. Much more safer than if I was in my canoe, kayak of sail. There is a time and place for everyone, and don't forget we already have speed limits on NH lakes and waterways, unlike the poll that was asked if we should have speed limits. All the deception that I have seen is coming from the HB162 supporters. Back up your statements with factual and COMPLETE data. |
12-29-2005, 08:27 PM | #15 |
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overlooker
How does this special steering help you see a swimmer in the water at speeds over 100 MPH? It's nice that the adrenaline gives you a rush when you go fast. Is it like being on drugs? Either way your comment makes me feel less safe about being on the lake when you are! Does this drug help you see the swimmer we were talking about? I do not understand your point of seed limits and NH lakes. Read the Cost Guard data that shows speed to be the #4 contributing factor in boat accidents. I have never seen a group that was more adept at putting their feet in their mouths than the opposition. Most of their arguments, when read by a impartial observer, support HB162. |
12-29-2005, 10:57 PM | #16 | |
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How does the Nike taste Here's an example of a 6 mph Sat , Sun , Hol. NWZ as marked by the USCG. The greatest idea since sliced bread
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12-29-2005, 11:41 PM | #17 | |
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There is quite indeed a discrimination against the GFBL's. Why does Winnfabs have to screen potential members??? Hmm, I do not think that OSO or NHRBA is. And as far as "slower is safer" lets see the data on real accidents on this lake last season. How many accidents that occurred were based on people doing over 45mph? How many under 45mph? Hmm, once again I would have to bet the majority of accidents happened at under 45mph. Anyone care to contest that with real data??? Not unrelated CG data that claims speed to be #4 yet does not indicate what speed the accidents took place at, or for that matter data not even indicitive of Winni? If anyone can prove me wrong on this one with NH Marine Patrol data I will throw in my hat and vote for a speed limit. The challenge is on the table. Prove me wrong. With no speed limit you are still more than welcome to travel under 45mph if you feel safer. Personally I feel confident enough in my boating skills that I can and do handle a boat traveling over 45mph well. I follow 150' rules, NWZ, and noise laws and do not endanger the lives of swimmers or other boaters. And yes, I do get it. I get it that the laws that we have in effect are ineffective and that if they were enforced properly there would be no need for this entire discussion or this Bill. Oh, and you missed one. BWI. Isn't that what really started all this in the first place? Not the boat, not the speed. |
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12-30-2005, 09:16 AM | #18 | |
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Baja Bob Returns!
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So lets see you feel perfectly confident traveling at 146.6 fps? You can close the 150 gap in the blink of an eye. In less than 10 seconds you have traveled .25 miles. You never look anywhere but straight ahead expect maybe when you are checking your speed, talking to the person behind you or whatever. You superhuman eye sight allows to see anything in the water. Hmmmm you are an amazing human. I have in early spring hit a variety of junk in the lake. Traveling as slow as 30 MPH and looking for debris I can still come on it too fast to avoid. Not a doubt in my mind that at 3X plus that speed you can see a swimmer in the water. Get real. Oh and I know those boats that flipped where taking low speed turns oh but wait the must not have upgraded to your steering system. You must be the reincarnation of Baja Boob the man who could handle it all. |
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12-30-2005, 09:42 AM | #19 | |
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The majority vote on the poll is for speed limits. Even though members of opposition brought in ringers from anther site AND voted more than once, the "No Limits" option is at 46%. Before the cheating started it was holding steady at 33%, the same as the state wide poll. |
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12-30-2005, 10:08 AM | #20 | |
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While we are at it I am still waiting for the accident data...Prove me wrong instead of taking pathetic, cheap shots... I have 4 boats on the lake, 3 of which can do over 45mph but none of which will break 55mph. None of thru-hull exhaust and none of which are GFBL's. All are family boats, a sport cruiser, a fishing boat, a small bowrider and a pontoon. Does this fleet qualify me to be Baja Bob? As far as the poll goes, maybe some light can be shed on the so-called fixing. Yep, some IDIOT claimed yo have tried to double vote yet someone else has posted that they tried to double vote using a few methods as a test and it did not work. Maybe Don should take out any votes for members that have joined since the poll was started and see how the data changes. This might clear the air on deceipt once and for all. And heck, if it is possible how many supporters actually did this as well and just simply were not stupid enough to post what they did? |
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12-30-2005, 10:59 AM | #21 |
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Commercial Fishermen
I have posted in another thread about the commercial fishermen in the coast, being effected by the 25 mph night rule. They are fuming. The proponents of HB162 did not want to touch this subject. Obviously they have not think about what effect at will happen outside of Winnipesaukee. The commercial fisherman endure enough rules and regulations. And the proponents are adding another one. I wish them a Happy New Year.
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12-30-2005, 12:18 PM | #22 |
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codeman671
Yes, somebody posted that they tried to double vote but could not. That doesn't mean it can't be done. In fact it is quite easy to vote twice on a poll, and it is not always possible for an administrator to know that it's happening. And people that have joined since the poll started is not the problem or the issue here. Although double voting is simple I don't think it's my business to tell you how to do it. The polling capability this site has is far from infallible. It may be fine for a friendly poll. I made a mistake in thinking it would work for such a contentious issue as HB162. |
12-30-2005, 12:45 PM | #23 | |
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12-30-2005, 12:47 PM | #24 | |
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Must be from Chicago!
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Hey lets have a Happy New Year! |
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12-30-2005, 02:35 PM | #25 |
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At the risk of being accused of having some common sense, I will attempt to craft a workable compromise, as BOTH sides of the argument have some merit.
Do not impose a lake-wide speed limit; rather, designate an area or areas which allow unlimited speed, and limit it elsewhere. For example: the broads, or any area which is at least a half mile from land / an island would permit unlimited speed. Yeah, the distance thing is somewhat vague and amorphous, but by thunder, it could work! Indeed, it DOES work for our freeways, where we allow and channel those vehicles wishing to travel at high speed. While I thrill at the sight of a speed boat flying along (I used to own a Donzi), I recognize it not everybody's cuppa. |
12-30-2005, 03:51 PM | #26 | |
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Just so you know, I would not be traveling at a high rate of speed where any person with any sense would be swimming. When I travel at a high rate I increase the distance of safe passage 4x. At 100 I can pick out a loon at over 1300 feet. Docking too fast is a speed related accident. There are speed limits on NH lakes and waterways, and because you don't understand that it is obvious that you are not an educated boater. Before hydralic steering my boat would not be safe to operate over 65mph. Boats now are safer to operate than ever , due to new tech. Where is my foot? Is my spelling OK? |
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12-30-2005, 07:49 PM | #27 | |
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Speed and distance
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12-31-2005, 06:39 AM | #28 | |
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The poor, oppressed, discriminated GFBL?
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12-31-2005, 09:28 AM | #29 | |
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Nasty!
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So, Codeman tell me why is it that so many of the people opposed to the speed limit seem incapable of making a post without slinging the mud. I must admit I have slung a little mud too. But it does amaze me the way so many of the anti-speed limit folks get so rude so quickly. How does anyone get upset about the forum poll……………..it is not an accurate poll for either side. If you your read over the myriad of posts the rudest ones seem to come from just one side. I think that is very telling of the personality that is fighting the speed limit. |
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12-31-2005, 09:55 AM | #30 | |
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"Boaters love boats . . . Kayakers love water."
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12-31-2005, 10:26 AM | #31 | |
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Instead of tossing another mud pie why don't you dig up the data I requested to prove your points, prove me wrong. The interpretations of CG data were quite inconclusive since they did not detail further how speed related accidents took place. And the factual data on Winni? I would love to see it. Put up or shut up. |
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12-31-2005, 11:04 AM | #32 | |
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12-31-2005, 11:19 AM | #33 | |
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There are a lot of small lakes in the area that are very well suited for canoes and kayaks that larger boats are banned from or simple impractical on because of size. I'm I wrong?
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12-31-2005, 11:27 AM | #34 |
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codeman671
I don't think I have slung any mud. But that might depend on your definition. If so I apologize. I am looking at the USCG data differently than you are. It seems to me the opposition is making the point that we don't need a speed limit because speed is not the problem on Winnipesaukee, and that speed has not caused accidents. At least this is my interpretation. The reply to this argument is that speed is a problem, and is a major contributing factor in accidents. The USCG calls speed the #4 contributing factor in boat accidents. That declaration, in and of itself, is my argument. I am not analyzing every point of the data, just taking it at face value. Speed is a major contributing factor, therefore a speed limit will help. I see this as a logical conclusion, you disagree. HB162 will not solve all speed problems. It will do nothing to prevent low speed accidents where the speed is in fact excessive for the situation. It will not prevent a high speed accident when the operator ignores the law. Drinking, inexperience and stupidity will, unfortunately, continue. |
12-31-2005, 11:30 AM | #35 | |
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"Boaters love boats . . . Kayakers love water."
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12-31-2005, 12:27 PM | #36 | |
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I haven't seen a reply from you in a while, have you made that first trip to the lake yet? ITD |
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12-31-2005, 12:40 PM | #37 | |
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"Boaters love boats . . . Kayakers love water."
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12-31-2005, 01:39 PM | #38 | |
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Plus the fact that "by the poll" most of you speed limit supporters , support a speed limit OVER 45. If the go fast crowd did skew the poll , I'm sure it was for "no speed limit" not 60/65/70. So it would stand to reason this part of the poll may be correct .
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12-31-2005, 02:56 PM | #39 | |
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B. A. R. D.
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12-31-2005, 03:08 PM | #40 | |
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This supports the comments by supporters that they would have preferred a higher limit. Last summer a member of the RR&D committee was pushing for a 60/30 amendment. With some support by the opposition it would have happened. |
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12-31-2005, 03:26 PM | #41 | |
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Well...
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Winnipesaukee is a big lake with a lot of boats. There are many real dangers, wind, waves, boat wakes and collisions. There are plenty of good places and times on Winnipesaukee to kayak safely and there are plenty of places and times where it's not as safe. The speed limit will have absolutely no effect on those times and places. |
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12-31-2005, 04:58 PM | #42 | |
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My opinions on this have been steadfast since the start. I do not feel that a 25mph night limit is a bad idea and would vote for it. The daytime limit is unacceptable in my opinion. Concentrating more on education, training, noise control and enforcement of current laws will do much more than HB162 will/would ever accomplish, it would leave a resounding effect that would make all parties happy. I do still believe that there is some alterior motives/conspiracies emanating from the Bear Island area and feel that this really does tie back to Hartman/Littlefield. I also find it humorous that the Common Man sides for this yet if they had not served someone 6 merlots this all probably would never have happened. Sounds like CYA on their part to me. Pass the blame. |
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12-31-2005, 06:56 PM | #43 | |
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I've kayaked a great deal on Squam, even on busy weekends, and have never felt unsafe on that lake. I can't say that about Winni. And the waves and the wind were not why I felt unsafe on Winni.
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01-03-2006, 10:48 AM | #44 |
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I'm sorry but I can't resist.Shouldn't "Sea" kayaks only be on the sea?
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01-03-2006, 11:00 AM | #45 | |
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01-03-2006, 11:18 AM | #46 | |
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01-03-2006, 11:18 AM | #47 | |
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Are you sure that it's not the sheer number of boats on Winnipesaukee that causes your unsafe feeling, as opposed to the extremely few boats exceeding 45 mph. I spent every summer weekend for the last four years in a condo overlooking the Broads. I'd be surprised if one boat in a hundred was going over 45 mph. |
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01-03-2006, 11:57 AM | #48 |
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Is this really the answer you guys want to give?
When you have been proved wrong why not just say so. Making a half joke about sea kayaks belonging in the ocean is childish. I looked for definitions of offshore, I found "In internationally navigable waters" USCG "Out of sight of land" Marine Manufacturers Association "At a distance from shore" Websters Where did you get the definition "10' off of Weirs Beach"? |
01-03-2006, 01:29 PM | #49 | |
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01-03-2006, 04:10 PM | #50 |
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wow
These were just harmless jokes. But the point is valid. Nicknames, model names or descriptive names are just that and are seldom absolute. So a sea kayak is fine on a lake or river. A sailboat can use a motor once in a while, a Baja Islander doesn't have to dock at islands, you don't have to dance in the sun if you buy a Sundancer. And you don't have to be out of site of land to drive an offshore boat.
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01-03-2006, 06:05 PM | #51 | |
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01-03-2006, 06:53 PM | #52 |
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ok...so that newspaper quote from the supporter of not passing HB162 went something like 'If I had a canoe or kayak, I would want to get the hell off Winnipesaukee and go find some smaller lake.'
The no-wake zone created maybe two years ago in Meredith bay starting at Church Point has made that area popular for a Meredith youth league, like maybe 12 year-olds, in their small Pram sailboats. Meredith has a middle school age, 12-14 or so, girl's rowing team that is out on Meredith Bay in their 8 seat, four seat, two seat and one seat rowing skulls. The team travels around to places like the Cornell Gorges River, the Head of the Charles event, and has a histoy of coming in first place in their short history. If making the no-wake zone worked so well in Meredith Bay, just think what a 45 day-25 night speed limit could do for the entire lake. Going 45mph is hardly a slow speed for the great majority of boats on the lake. Going 45mph is, in fact a very fast speed and fast enough to go waterskiing barefoot. It would make the lake a whole lot nicer for a whole lot of lake users, and is going to happen soon so everyone might as well get used to it. |
01-03-2006, 07:50 PM | #53 | |
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01-03-2006, 08:11 PM | #54 | |
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01-03-2006, 08:30 PM | #55 | |
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01-06-2006, 06:06 AM | #56 | |
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Not zero?
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I just found a class of GFBLs against whom the new RSA would discriminate: It's the ones whose speedometers start at 50-MPH (and not zero).
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Is it "Common Sense" isn't. |
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01-10-2006, 10:24 AM | #57 | |
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Got this response from the USCG
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"Dear Sir/Madam, Thank you for contacting the US Coast Guard Recreational Boating Safety Infoline. We do not have the information that you are seeking available to us here at the Infoline, however, we will be forwarding your e-mail on to a specialist. If you have not received a response within 48 business hours, please feel free to contact us. For more information on U.S. Coast Guard Office of Recreational Boating Safety, please visit our website at www.uscgboating.org. If you need additional information, please call the infoline at 1-800-368-5647. Thank you Larry U.S. Coast Guard Infoline " I'll let you know what, if anything, comes from this.
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Mee'n'Mac "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple stupidity or ignorance. The latter are a lot more common than the former." - RAH |
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01-10-2006, 12:33 PM | #58 | |
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Thanks |
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01-10-2006, 08:51 PM | #59 | |
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Can do
Quote:
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Mee'n'Mac "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple stupidity or ignorance. The latter are a lot more common than the former." - RAH |
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