What Speed Limit ????????

[Kracken]

OCDACTIVE,

It is much better this way.

If you want to frustrate your self, try teaching your puppy statistical probability, it will be just as fruitful.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by elchase

Sorry. Clue: Not all deaths are the result of murders. Not all murderers respect our laws against murder. Our laws against murder do not stop people from committing all crimes. Should we rescind our murder laws too?

Wrong: The difference: Murder was a problem that warranted a law. Murder was NOT something that just made people 'feel unsafe'.

Originally Posted by elchase

You conveniently rounded 1.45 to 1.50 in your favor and I'm the one spinning? But they do support my cause. Even more so. Sorry you still can understand the math. 45MPH allows you approximately 0.8 seconds of extra time to react and avoid the little boy's head. 70MPH is too fast and the kid is dead before you can react. Great attempt on reverse-spin.

Agreed, kids sometimes do stupid things. So rather than just SLOW DOWN, we should run them over to punish them? I have no problem seeing and avoiding even stupid kids, even on the Broads or on any other part of the lake, at the speeds I boat on the lake. I do not depend on the intelligence of kids to avoid killing them. I go fast enough to enjoy the lake, but slow enough to do so safely, no matter what the kayaks and kids are doing.

Wrong: I impartially rounded BOTH numbers regardless of which side it supported and the result was clear. Do you have any idea how quick eight tenths of one second is? I do. And it would not make one bit of difference in any of your 'what if' fear situations. The laws that existed before the temporary speed limit prevented these situations.

Follow up question: When was the last time a child was run over at a high speed on Winni? [/Rhetorical]

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by elchase

Skip,
Here's a post of yours from the archives from back before we had a speed limit. Were the MP officers chasing this Donzi Poker Race around the lake at high speeds more or less safe than the ones retrieving the bodies? Had these MP officers been out there fishing these guys out of the lake when this poker race came flying by, which risk (pulling in the bodies or dodging the Donzis) would have been more endangering? And you guys are saying it is ME who doesn't care about our safety officials?;
Forum Archive
I am a radio nut - What I heard about Poker Run
Posted By: Skipper of the Sea Que (CQ)
Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 at 12:13 a.m.
In Response To: Marine Patrol can't keep up with Donzi's (Don Zee)
Well folks, I have to get my 2 cents in here. I would have loved to join the Donzi Poker Run, but I have a Four Winns (and couldn't find Donzi decals big enough to cover all the Four Winns logos on my boat ).
Anyway, I have been called a radio nut. I prefer enthusiast. Ham radio, Broadcast Radio, Public Service radio, Short Wave, Medium Wave and all that. At the Lake I often monitor the Marine Patrol Radio Frequencies (at least the 2 known to me). In addition to VHF Marine Channel 16 which is not the same as the Marine Patrol 800 MHz radio system.
What I did NOT hear on the Marine Patrol Radio was information supporting Woodsy. What I DID hear supported the reports of Sue and Don Zee. The Marine Patrol did NOT talk too much about the Donzi Poker Run on their radio system, rather they encouraged officers to TELEPHONE headquarters for information (in effect, making it so that people like me can't monitor those conversations). In my opinion, the MP officers on patrol did not know about the poker run. I believe they did try to chase some of the Donzi boats and gave up.
Now, I did not witness these events. What I know comes from various sources, including the Marine patrol 2-way radio (and I assume the MP officers report situations accurately). I need to review the ECPA (Electronic Communications Privacy Act) before I reveal exactly what I heard on my radios. I think monitored Public Service communications can be repeated but I forget. The law may say I must keep what I hear on those channels to myself - so, I won't specify exactly what I heard. But what I did NOT hear (no law says I can't tell you what I did NOT hear - boy that's convoluted) was anything contradicting Don Zee or Sue. Read between those lines. I think Don and Sue are right.
As for MP finding and stopping anyone when they really want to... I'm not sure I buy that. Radar and radios are not enough. Radar does not read hull numbers. Ship radar doesn't follow boats around or over islands. Of course Radar could have changed a lot since I got my FCC Ship Radar Endorsement on my (FCC Commercial Radio) license (to test, install, maintain and repair Radar equipment).
Sorry to ramble but I had to get this out of my system. Plus, I wish there were a Poker Run I could get in on. I think my family would love it.
AL, Radio Operator of the Sea Que (CQ)

And these are the guys (MP) who think we don't need a speed limit? Oh well, I'll pretty much leave the safety debate to those SL supporters who do a better job discussing the safety aspect; I'll concentrate on the noise/confusion/boats screaming by you only 150' away at those ungodly speeds. Glad I wasn't out on the lake that day described above. We sometimes joke that our family boating picnics on the lake would be more peaceful if we held them on the median strip of Rt. 93..

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by elchase

You can keep saying this, but that will not make it true. The only big change to the Trans Comm has been Jim Ryan, the chairman. The others recall what happened and what they wanted and did not want. Jim Ryan spoke openly to the press about the offense he took to the MP's obvious attempt to "derail the legislative process with this obvious eleventh hour tactic" (his words). The MP rep that was sent to the Transportation hearing was soundly scolded by the committee for trying to undermine their authority. Keep saying they were the ones who asked the MP to do that tainted and silly "survey", but the truth is the truth is the truth.

Interesting. I guess I don't have all copies of the transportation committee minutes regarding the SL. Since you have them to substantiate your claims, can you tell me the date of the minute? I can get it from my daughter's father in law who is on the committee.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by elchase

Attempts to legitimize the "survey" are on topic, but anything that points out one of its many flaws is "Off Topic"?

MP boats sitting in a channel in 2008 really have nothing to do with the validity of the Speed Survey conducted in 2007.

Whether or not the supporters believe that the Department of Safety and the Marine Patrol willingly lied and tainted the results, the results reveal some very important factual data. Not the least of which is speed is not an issue on the lake.

If you really feel as though the Department of Safety and the Marine Patrol are just flat out liars and probably have NO CLUE about safety on the lake, then feel free to take the other side of the arguement. I'd prefer to have my rules and regulations created and enforced by experts, not those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat.

Again, I do not own a GBFL.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by elchase

There used to be races almost every weekend on our lake before the Speed Limit discouraged them. Numerous Poker Races with boats operating just like in this race were held on the lake each summer (see Forum Archive "A horde invades quiet waters" Posted By: 3gW Sunday, July 27, 2003 at 9:24 p.m.), and first thing Saturday and Sunday mornings you'd see and hear the bass boats all racing each other from the tourney starting points to the best fishing spots across the lake. In the afternoons, you'd see all the performance boaters, many looking and sounding just like these "race boats", racing each other from Braun Bay across the lake to get the best docks at the Naswa for an afternoon of boozing before getting back behind the helm. (oh ya, drinking authorizes them to go fast ) Sorry if the tone of this response unintentionally offends.

Once again, let me spell it out for you, and all the legislators who are probably not even reading this. The incident in the link that you provided happened during a race (a sanctioned event, with race-boats, race officials, start/finish lines, etc) in the ocean.
A poker run...is not a sanctioned race.
Bass fisherman participating in a fishing tournament...is not a sanctioned race.
Performance boaters going from Braun Bay to somewhere else...is not a sanctioned race.

You are comparing apples to elephants and coming up amazingly short in your comparison.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Once again, let me spell it out for you, and all the legislators who are probably not even reading this. The incident in the link that you provided happened during a race (a sanctioned event, with race-boats, race officials, start/finish lines, etc) in the ocean.
A poker run...is not a sanctioned race.
Bass fisherman participating in a fishing tournament...is not a sanctioned race.
Performance boaters going from Braun Bay to somewhere else...is not a sanctioned race.

You are comparing apples to elephants and coming up amazingly short in your comparison.

Unfortunately this could happen on Lake Winni if we didn't have a speed limit:

"Not long after the start of the Lake Cumberland Poker Run tragedy struck as a boat flipped, killing one and injuring another.

The name of the boater was being withheld, pending notification of next-of-kin. He and his passenger were thrown from a boat Saturday about 10:30 a.m. and though others came to their aid quickly, the man identified by the other boater as the driver was unresponsive when pulled from the lake.

CPR was performed on the man, who was in his 40s and reportedly had several rooms booked at the Jamestown Resort. An ambulance arrived as the boat brought the driver to shore, and ambulance workers continued to try to resuscitate the man.

Coroner Larry Skaggs confirms the man was declared dead at the Russell County Hospital. The passenger in the boat was treated at the hospital and was conscious and able to answer questions earlier as he was being loaded into the ambulance.

According to the passenger and others who were at the scene, the boat the men were in swerved to avoid another boat during the Poker Run and on hitting that boat's wake, their fast boat "barrel rolled" landing upside down in the water.

Both men were reportedly thrown from the boat and since they were wearing life jackets they were both pulled about boats that came to their aid. The passenger told rescue workers at the scene that their boat was traveling at about 130 miles per hour when the incident occurred.

The poker run was halted after the incident, and was later canceled. The "cards" that decide the winner were drawn by participants back on the dock."

http://www.russellcounty.net/archive..._from=&ucat=3&

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by elchase

You can keep saying this, but that will not make it true. The only big change to the Trans Comm has been Jim Ryan, the chairman. The others recall what happened and what they wanted and did not want. Jim Ryan spoke openly to the press about the offense he took to the MP's obvious attempt to "derail the legislative process with this obvious eleventh hour tactic" (his words). The MP rep that was sent to the Transportation hearing was soundly scolded by the committee for trying to undermine their authority. Keep saying they were the ones who asked the MP to do that tainted and silly "survey", but the truth is the truth is the truth. Margin of error? Margin of error?!! This "survey" had a margin of error of 1000%. It was a bunch of marked police boats sitting in plain site with radar guns that boaters could see from a mile away. It was boats slowing down long before they could be measured.[/B]

Hey ElChase...

You referring to that CORRUPT Politician Jim Ryan? You know the guy who at last update was sitting in jail?? The one that STOLE from campaign funds? Convicted FELON Jim Ryan? The same Jim Ryan that was rumored to have taken BRIBES??? I wonder if he took money from WinnFABS or their supporters?? Might be worth a look into his cooked books....

Seriously, if the MP study had come out and shown speed was an issue, WINNFABS would have been shouting from the rooftops! Certainly, a more serious scientific study was warranted they said... Thus the 2 year speed limit with a sunset clause was compromised upon!

Here we are 1 year into the "compromise" and the SL supporters are clamoring to make the law permanent! But why? SL supporters say its working however.... We know of few if any speeding tickets issued, and even less knowledge if any tickets were successfully prosecuted (fine paid/DMV notified of violation)

Lets wait for the results....

Woodsy

[Woodsy]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

Unfortunately this could happen on Lake Winni if we didn't have a speed limit:

"Not long after the start of the Lake Cumberland Poker Run tragedy struck as a boat flipped, killing one and injuring another.

The name of the boater was being withheld, pending notification of next-of-kin. He and his passenger were thrown from a boat Saturday about 10:30 a.m. and though others came to their aid quickly, the man identified by the other boater as the driver was unresponsive when pulled from the lake.

CPR was performed on the man, who was in his 40s and reportedly had several rooms booked at the Jamestown Resort. An ambulance arrived as the boat brought the driver to shore, and ambulance workers continued to try to resuscitate the man.

Coroner Larry Skaggs confirms the man was declared dead at the Russell County Hospital. The passenger in the boat was treated at the hospital and was conscious and able to answer questions earlier as he was being loaded into the ambulance.

According to the passenger and others who were at the scene, the boat the men were in swerved to avoid another boat during the Poker Run and on hitting that boat's wake, their fast boat "barrel rolled" landing upside down in the water.

Both men were reportedly thrown from the boat and since they were wearing life jackets they were both pulled about boats that came to their aid. The passenger told rescue workers at the scene that their boat was traveling at about 130 miles per hour when the incident occurred.

The poker run was halted after the incident, and was later canceled. The "cards" that decide the winner were drawn by participants back on the dock."

http://www.russellcounty.net/archive..._from=&ucat=3&

Yosemite...

That can happen anywhere people boat, and at speeds less than 45MPH. The reality is accidents like that are rare. There has NEVER been an accident like that on Lake Winnipesaukee.

I dont think you have boated on Lake Cumberland.... but I have! They dont have a 150' rule. Its just like boating on the ocean there! There is no minimum distance requirements between boats....

Woodsy

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Yosemite...

That can happen anywhere people boat, and at speeds less than 45MPH. The reality is accidents like that are rare. There has NEVER been an accident like that on Lake Winnipesaukee.

I dont think you have boated on Lake Cumberland.... but I have! They dont have a 150' rule. Its just like boating on the ocean there! There is no minimum distance requirements between boats....

Woodsy

Let me take this one further.... Supporters always use Lake George with their 45 mph speed limit as a model for Lake Winnipesaukee's. This is actually where the 45 came from................... However did you know they do NOT have a safe passage rule of 150 ft?

Again this is why it is a REPETATIVE law.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by Woodsy

Here we are 1 year into the "compromise" and the SL supporters are clamoring to make the law permanent!

Actually we were 64 DAYS into the boating season when State Representative James Pilliod, R-Belmont announced in the Laconia Daily Sun on August 3, 2009 that he was filing a bill to make the law permanent.

Of those 64 boating season days (counted from June 1) only 14 were what I consider boating days...days with no rain and at least 70 degrees! (according to the NWS)

So the speed limit supporters let the "compromise" work for 14 days and decided they wanted to change the rules, again!

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

Unfortunately this could happen on Lake Winni if we didn't have a speed limit:

And unfortunately, sometimes This Happens on lakes that already have speed limits.

Speed and Safety are not synonymous. Speed is also not an issue on Winni.
The solution is education and enforcement.

[Kracken]

WOW

So that’s what it means to be taken out to the woodshed.

Nice posts Woodsy.

[VtSteve]

I remember seeing a video of a real genuine Cigarette boat doing a partial roll, and ejecting the driver, at around 30 mph or so. Obviously not experienced or smart, he had no idea how to drive or turn a stepped hull boat, nor was he wearing a safety lanyard. The boat kept going and turning, and ran up on a breakwater. Proving nothing of course, except you need to be in control of your vessel at all times, and some training helps.

Many poker runs around the country have become pretty strict on their rules and regulations, including having the proper safety equipment. Those that don't adhere to the rules are thrown out. This trend is sweeping the nation, and will become far more prevalent before long.

In between the fringes of out of control cowboys that ruin things for everyone, and the knee-jerk reactionaries that throw silly laws at everything, there exists a much larger group of people that feel safety and common sense should be the norm. There will always be thrill-seekers that push the envelope too much, just as there will always be silly legislation that doesn't work.

Just as the cowboys need to be reigned in and have their keys taken away, the same holds true for legislators and their supporters that need to have their pens and mouthpieces taken away.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by Ryan

And unfortunately, sometimes This Happens on lakes that already have speed limits.

Speed and Safety are not synonymous . Speed is also not an issue on Winni.
The solution is education and enforcement.

Fixed it for Ya:

Speed and Safety are not synonymous, but speed and race are . Speed is also not an issue on Winni. thanks to the SL law.
The solution is education and enforcement of the SL.

[Airwaves]

Posted by YS

Speed is also not an issue on Winni. thanks to the SL law.

Since you are claiming that speed is not an issue on Winnipesaukee BECAUSE OF THE SPEED LIMIT LAW then you wouldn't mind posting the last dozen or so speed releated incidents on Lake Winnipesaukee that you base you statement on, right?

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

Evidently you don’t do much on Lake Winni other than use your GFB. If you did you might be more aware of how it is to feel unsafe when a GFB is going at top speed and you are in a Kayak within the sight and sound of it. One GFB is bad enough at high speed but when you get more than one of them going side by side just to see which one can go the fastest, then I feel very, very uncomfortable on the Lake..

Still waiting for my response...

How far away are these boats

Where are you on the lake(I dont mean where you live, I mean what part of the lake are you enjoying when you feel unsafe and uncomfortable from these Go Fast Boats)



Thank you,

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by elchase

Actually, a boat going 70 MPH passes 150 ft in 1.45 seconds. And the difference from the 45 MPH boat is 0.85 seconds. And therein lies the flaw in your logic. You see, the accepted average “perception and reaction time” is around 1.5 seconds for a sober driver in daylight conditions. (see any of the thousands of reliable sources around the internet, such as http://www.firerescue1.com/Columnist...tances-Part-1/) This is the time it takes you or me to see a kid's head pop up 150 feet directly in front of the boat, recognize the need to change course, send a signal from our brain to our hands to brake or steer (oh ya, we don't have brakes)...to steer, and to start effecting that signal. At 70MPH, we are just starting to turn our wheel 0.05 seconds AFTER we hear the thump of the poor kid's head as it is shattered into thousands of pieces of skull and brain. At 45 MPH, we have 0.8 SECONDS to spare. So yes, the 0.8 seconds that you dismiss as being so trivial is actually the very difference between the kid's life and death.

Well no one else is going to point out how wrong you are then I will. I assume that you pulled the bolded text from whatever link you found and referenced. But if 1.5s was average human reaction time, we would see many more accidents in everyday life than we do.

Simple reaction time is the time required for an observer to respond to the presence of a stimulus. For example, a subject might be asked to press a button as soon as a light or sound appears. Mean RT is approximately 180-200 msec milliseconds to detect visual stimulus, and approximately 140-160 milliseconds to detect an auditory stimulus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time

Do not believe physics, try it for yourself http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/...time/stats.php
There is a link at the top of the page that will bring you to the test, you have to perform it 5 times before your score will be posted. Click Reaction Time in the first sentence.

If your reaction time is what you stated above, it is very clear why it is so hard to have a debate with you.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

Still waiting for my response...

How far away are these boats

Where are you on the lake(I dont mean where you live, I mean what part of the lake are you enjoying when you feel unsafe and uncomfortable from these Go Fast Boats)



Thank you,

I wasn't far enough away.

I was somewhere between Alton Bay and Center Harbor.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

El I admitted my mistake in that posting, if you don't accept it then that is your problem.

Is this your version of an apology? Give me a straightforward "I'm sorry" apology for accusing me of being a poacher and I will be very gracious and never mention it again. But I have yet to see anything even remotely resembling an apology from you, so have nothing to accept. You can even do it in a PM if you are too embarrassed to post it.

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Let me know when you have some statistics relevant to New Hampshire and Lake Winnipesaukee.

1) A statistically reliable randomly conducted telephone poll showed NH citizens favoring a 45/25 MPH speed limit outnumber NH citizens opposing a 45/25 speed limit by a 9 to 1 margin with a +/-3% margin of error. These are the people who elected our legislators and will be voting again next fall.
2) There were 0 (zero) accidents on Lake Winnipesaukee last summer that could even be alleged to have been high-speed related.
3) With a speed limit in place and the MP monitoring boat speeds last summer, only 1 (one) boat was caught exceeding 45 MPH.
How are those for statistics?

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

and some people wonder why they draw distain to their comments and posts.

I am not one of those who wonder. I know. I tell it like it is and some people cannot deal with that. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Ryan

Wrong: The difference: ... Murder was NOT something that just made people 'feel unsafe'.

Sure it was. I never personally knew anyone that was murdered before Hartman. All the murders I heard of were anecdotal and second-hand. I had no personal experiences that caused a fear of murder and a support for laws against it. My recognition that murder laws are warranted fall completely from fear...from murders that happened in other states...some years ago. We do not need to be victims in an accident or participants in a near miss to recognize the need for safety laws.

Originally Posted by Ryan

Do you have any idea how quick eight tenths of one second is?

Yes, it's just over half the human reaction time. 2.3 seconds gives you 50% more reaction time that you need to make a change in course and avoid the kid. 1.45 seconds is not enough. Sometimes you just need to punt. this is one of those times for you. Just let it go. You blew it by opening this can. Walk away.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Glad I wasn't out on the lake that day described above.

It was actually much much worse that this one post indicated. Look at the other posts about that event in the archives. It was incredible that day. But typical of the Poker Races that used to occur weekend after weekend in those days before the SL.

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I can get it from my daughter's father in law who is on the committee.

Please do. Why ask me to do your research if you have your own sources? I'll hold my breath for you to come back and tell us what you find. I am also holding my breath for that documentary you guys were making last summer and for Hazelnut's apology for saying I lied about your PM.

Originally Posted by chipj29

Once again, let me spell it out for you, and all the legislators who are probably not even reading this. The incident in the link that you provided happened during a race

Once again, let me spell it out to you; There used to be races almost every weekend on our lake before the Speed Limit discouraged them. Numerous Poker Races with boats operating just like in this race were held on the lake each summer (see Forum Archive "A horde invades quiet waters" Posted By: 3gW Sunday, July 27, 2003 at 9:24 p.m.), and first thing Saturday and Sunday mornings you'd see and hear the bass boats all racing each other from the tourney starting points to the best fishing spots across the lake. In the afternoons, you'd see all the performance boaters, many looking and sounding just like these "race boats", racing each other from Braun Bay across the lake to get the best docks at the Naswa for an afternoon of boozing before getting back behind the helm. How did the lack of sanctioning of our races or the absence of MP oversight make them safer? This argument is not going too well for you either. You've got to know when to fold'em (K. Rogers).

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Hey ELCHASE...

And then there were nine.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

You referring to that CORRUPT Politician Jim Ryan? You know the guy who at last update was sitting in jail?? The one that STOLE from campaign funds? Convicted FELON Jim Ryan? The same Jim Ryan that was rumored to have taken BRIBES???

Yes, what a dog he was. A real scumbag. Makes me proud to be a Republican. I was never too impressed with the way he handled HB847 anyway. They clearly had the votes to pass the bill into a permanent law. Caving to the high-speed side with the 2-year provision was a mistake in my opinion. Had he been stronger, we would not be having this discussion today. The SL would already be permanent.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Seriously, if the MP study had come out and shown speed was an issue, WINNFABS would have been shouting from the rooftops!

Of course they would have. If the anti-SL MP had conducted their "survey" and been unable to craft it in a way that slowed everyone down, and had to come back and say "As hard as we tried, we could not slow boaters down enough to say speeding is not a problem", of course Winnfabs would have been using that. I don't expect they are so stupid that they would have missed that opportunity.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Certainly, a more serious scientific study was warranted they said.

No, the opposers said that. Winnfabs pushed the original bill that was to be permanent. The 2-yr provision was put into the bill against their objections. The two year provision was crafted by the Marine Trades lobbyist who likely (and ingeniously I might add) saw that it created a legislative nightmare...an unavoidable gap in a law they intended to reconsider and renew without interruption before the two years were up. Reconfirming the law THIS SESSION corrects that mistake and ensures that a law that is working is not unintentionally interrupted. Imagine the uproar if the law gapped through the 2011 summer and another death occurred? Everyone would ask how we let that legislative loophole give window to behavior that our legislators had already overwhelmingly agreed did not belong on the lake.

Originally Posted by Woodsy

We know of few if any speeding tickets issued

Exactly. Boaters slowed down as we predicted they would, because most people obey our laws. The Speed limit worked

Originally Posted by Ryan

This Happens on lakes that already have speed limits.

Yes, and unfortunately we cannot guarantee that it will never happen again on Winnipesaukee even with our speed limit. There will still be occasional offenders, including several from your group, who ignore the law. But the speed limit is part of a package of safety laws that together make boating safer and more enjoyable for the most boaters. Certainly, accidents like this are LESS LIKELY on a speed limit lake than on a NO RULES lake.

Originally Posted by jmen24

Simple reaction time is the time required for an observer to respond to the presence of a stimulus. For example, a subject might be asked to press a button as soon as a light or sound appears. Mean RT is approximately 180-200 msec milliseconds to detect visual stimulus, and approximately 140-160 milliseconds to detect an auditory stimulus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_time.

Oh ya, I see that hit when I Google it too. Right after 26 hits and just before the next 50+ hits that all that say 1.5 seconds is the accepted standard reaction time. How does information get posted on wickipedia anyway? As I told Hazelnut when she challenged my grammar, if you look hard enough you can usually find something on the internet that supports any wrong information.


And again, I do not own a GBFL.

[onlywinni]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

I wasn't far enough away.

I was somewhere between Alton Bay and Center Harbor.

Thank you for reminding me why I stopped this nonsense debate before..
I am asking you a serious question and all I get in return is a wise ass comment??

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I'd prefer to have my rules and regulations created and enforced by experts, not those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat.

Again, I do not own a GBFL.

Wow...
"those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat"? That's the best spin I've seen regarding the noise issue yet, and quite frankly it speaks to why people will fight to keep their new law. The fact that you could trivialize a concern voiced by so many people as to why limits are needed and you feel you can boil the whole issue down to "those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat" is amazing to me.
As has been previously noted, noise is part and parcel of the whole cowboy scenario so often noted by people on the lake and the media covering it. It has been a concern for those who manage the lake and depend on it for a living and who don't want tourism negatively affected. We have heard from forum members about ski boats who at 7 AM feel they can blast their expensive sound system for everyone in Winter Harbor to hear. We've heard about people who can hear GFBL's several miles inland on the hills overlooking the lake. You've heard from me today about people who can tear through a narrow channel at 11 at night (but 150' from shore) with a deafening roar waking up everyone on the shore. This is more than lack of common courtesy, it's a disturbance of the peace. And it doesn't "hurt anyone's feelings" but rather has galvanized people's support for a SL. Incidents like the one I described earlier have made many HATE, not dislike, certain boats or their drivers. We heard from a SL opposer this summer named SHREDDY who said he liked his bikes loud, liked his cars loud, liked his snow machine loud and liked his boat loud. He said something to the effect that he was proud of his toys and wanted to draw attention to them. He was quickly chastized by another SL opposer because this mentality is what is sometimes responsible for having landowners close their land to snow machines. He seems to have crawled away in shame because I have not seen any more posts from him on the SL threads.
In any case there are few SL opposers on this forum who clearly and sincerely love their boats and who seem to be quite respectful and concerned for how their actions might affect others. Should the SL remain, I will feel a certain sense of regret if not sadness for them, in part because a few mavericks like yourself who don't seem to get it have spoiled things for everyone. Hope I didn't "hurt your feelings".

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Wow...
"those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat"? That's the best spin I've seen regarding the noise issue yet, and quite frankly it speaks to why people will fight to keep their new law. The fact that you could trivialize a concern voiced by so many people as to why limits are needed and you feel you can boil the whole issue down to "those whose feelings are hurt by a loud boat" is amazing to me.
As has been previously noted, noise is part and parcel of the whole cowboy scenario so often noted by people on the lake and the media covering it. It has been a concern for those who manage the lake and depend on it for a living and who don't want tourism negatively affected. We have heard from forum members about ski boats who at 7 AM feel they can blast their expensive sound system for everyone in Winter Harbor to hear. We've heard about people who can hear GFBL's several miles inland on the hills overlooking the lake. You've heard from me today about people who can tear through a narrow channel at 11 at night (but 150' from shore) with a deafening roar waking up everyone on the shore. This is more than lack of common courtesy, it's a disturbance of the peace. And it doesn't "hurt anyone's feelings" but rather has galvanized people's support for a SL. Incidents like the one I described earlier have made many HATE, not dislike, certain boats or their drivers. We heard from a SL opposer this summer named SHREDDY who said he liked his bikes loud, liked his cars loud, liked his snow machine loud and liked his boat loud. He said something to the effect that he was proud of his toys and wanted to draw attention to them. He was quickly chastized by another SL opposer because this mentality is what is sometimes responsible for having landowners close their land to snow machines. He seems to have crawled away in shame because I have not seen any more posts from him on the SL threads.
In any case there are few SL opposers on this forum who clearly and sincerely love their boats and who seem to be quite respectful and concerned for how their actions might affect others. Should the SL remain, I will feel a certain sense of regret if not sadness for them, in part because a few mavericks like yourself who don't seem to get it have spoiled things for everyone. Hope I didn't "hurt your feelings".

If the problem is noise, then make rules about noise. Don't disguise feel good legislation in the name of safety and pinpoint a type of boat. Also, you cannot trivialize the role of the MP in this process.

Originally Posted by RYAN

I do not own a GFBL

[DEJ]

Ryan, it IS about a particular type of boat!

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

Still waiting for my response...

How far away are these boats

Where are you on the lake(I dont mean where you live, I mean what part of the lake are you enjoying when you feel unsafe and uncomfortable from these Go Fast Boats)



Thank you,

He doesn't respond apparently with facts and data.. just enjoys stirring the pot...... I am still waiting as well.. Like I said you don't get anywhere responding to trouble makers or trolls.... For they are not looking for an actual discussion or debate....

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by Ryan

If the problem is noise, then make rules about noise. Don't disguise feel good legislation in the name of safety and pinpoint a type of boat. Also, you cannot trivialize the role of the MP in this process.

Been tried, didn't work, even more difficult to enforce than some of your perceptions of how hard it would be to enforce the SL. " And the law would be ignored by drunks". So now we have a SL. As far as trivializing the MP, many of your SL persuasion have not only trivialized them, but outright bashed them over the past months over issues like the 150' rule and NWZ's. And again, hearing today's description of the poker run a few years ago makes me certain they are not the ones who should be weighing in with their expert opinions about the need for a SL.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Been tried, didn't work, even more difficult to enforce than some of your perceptions of how hard it would be to enforce the SL. So now we have a SL. As far as trivializing the MP, many of your SL persuasion have not only trivialized them, but outright bashed them over the past months over issues like the 150' rule and NWZ's. And again, hearing today's description of the poker run a few years ago makes me certain they are not the ones who should be weighing in with their expert opinions about the need for a SL.

Hey sunset.. just a heads up, I wasn't there (in VA) but pics of this years poker run were shown on winni.com. I haven't found the thread but I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong Rattlesnake Gal posted them) These poker runs (NOT RACES) earn a ton of money for Easter Seals and are not publicized ever as races or they would lose their insurance. Most run safety meetings and have very strict rules for captains regarding drinking and life jackets etc. I would even say most poker runs are 10 x safer due to how well the are run then a busy day on the lake. The reason why the Crowd of boats entered at the same time is in most poker runs the group "runs" together so they go from point to point. Others are set up so (like winni) so all the boats don't arrive in the same port of call all at the same time. Given you will get groups like this one being discussed but it isn't a safety hazard. Usually the MP clears the way for these groups because it is an organized event. They make sure that when "the group" arrives there aren't boats in the way etc. Now I wasn't part of the one in question but it was back from 2003. I don't think too many of us can comment on it as to exactly what happened unless you were actually there.. Just my 2 cents...

As you can see I get reved up when Poker "RUNS" come into question for they are a very successful way to raise money for needy charities and provide for a fun and SAFE time for all its participants. If a few want to treat it as a race then you can't blame the poker run.. I have seen plenty of non go fast boats racing while breaking many laws in the process but no one seems to get on them.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by elchase

Oh ya, I see that hit when I Google it too. Right after 26 hits and just before the next 50+ hits that all that say 1.5 seconds is the accepted standard reaction time. How does information get posted on wickipedia anyway? As I told Hazelnut when she challenged my grammar, if you look hard enough you can usually find something on the internet that supports any wrong information.

El, thank you for responding. I added the bold.

Did you take the test? Try it without you hand on your mouse.

El, it is also called a Citation, try it some time, this is the source of the quote or information that has been presented, this citation allows the reader to follow your information trail. That way they (the reader) can comprehend whether or not you made the information up.

Do you pilot your boat with your hand on or off the throttle? I have only ridden in a car with one person that hovered their left foot over the brake pedal while driving a car. I know I do not keep my foot over the brake while driving my vehicle. But I did always have a hand on the throttle of our boat while underway, I even keep my hands on my paddle while canoeing.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by onlywinni

Thank you for reminding me why I stopped this nonsense debate before..
I am asking you a serious question and all I get in return is a wise ass comment??

I’m not trying to be a wise a** but your questions are open ended and no matter where I was on the Lake and no matter how far away I say I was, someone will either say how do you know the distance, or GFB’s don’t hang out in that area etc. I don’t have pictures of where I was or exact dates that I saw them.
I boat a lot near Alton Bay, Wolfeboro Bay, Nineteen Mile Bay, Tuftonboro Neck, Center Harbor, Meredith, Rattlesnake Island etc. I belong to a kayaking club and we try hitting a different place each week.
I have seen GFB’s in all of these areas and they could have cared less that I was kayaking near them.
This year things have been better and maybe the SL law had something to do with it.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

He doesn't respond apparently with facts and data.. just enjoys stirring the pot...... I am still waiting as well.. Like I said you don't get anywhere responding to trouble makers or trolls.... For they are not looking for an actual discussion or debate....

OCDATIVE, Please put me on your ignore list.

[DEJ]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

OCDATIVE, Please put me on your ignore list.

Looks like once again the truth and the facts hurt!

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

OCDATIVE, Please put me on your ignore list.

Well first its ocda"c"tive but that doesn't matter in the least.

I have no problem with your posts if you were to substantiate your thoughts. If it is a simple opinion than say it as such not "fact". Otherwise it is considered cut and run......

Also if you look back to post 579 you brought my personal activities into question. I answered them kindly and returned with a line of questions, which you ignored or didn't have the data to back yourself up. When you get called out for it and you have no answer, You ask to be ignored..?????? You "quoted" me.... ???? This is how one can get a label.

I never asked you to leave. You chose to, now you chose to return and I am happy you did for we need a level discussion. I won't get into flip flopping.

All I ask is that you address the post and not the poster and back your conclusions up with facts / data or just make sure people realize you are implying them as your personal opinions.

If the lake seemed better this year as you said in your last post it "could be due to the SL" I won't argue that. Many factors play a role on the lake Economy, Weather and I feel the least of all SL.

As supporters have said over and over it is the minority that has boats that can exceed 45. I disagree, but I hardly doubt these few in the minority made the lake a completely different atmosphere as many claim.

[winni83]

I have been lurking for a while reading with some interest various posts. Most of them, while entertaining (e. g. the “restaurant wars”), have little impact on me personally. However, the current debate (that term is a generous description of the exchange of facts, views and opinions in this area) over speed limits prompts me to join and make at least one post.

I am not a “go fast boat” owner and do not intend to be, but I am adamantly in favor of having the current speed limit law cease to exist as of January 1, 2011, pursuant to its terms as enacted by our legislature and signed by our governor.

I have owned lakefront property on Winnipesaukee since 1983. I have 2 boats with engines, one of which is technically capable of exceeding 45 mph on a calm day with a clean hull and light load, three kayaks, one canoe and one rowboat, so that about covers the gamut of watercraft, other than personal water craft.

In all my 25 plus years of boating, swimming or otherwise being in or on the Lake, the only instances in which I have felt threatened by another boat occurred as a direct result of the other boat operator’s violation of the 150 foot rule or other basic navigation and right of way rules and these, quite frankly, often involved personal water craft. In no case was speed in excess of 45 mph involved and for that matter if the speed had been within that required for compliance under the 150 foot rule, then no such speed problem would have existed.

Simply put, the current speed limit law is a solution in search of a problem. Whether there are ulterior motives involved by proponents of the speed limit is a good question. Certain posts have implied that if “go fast boats” don’t like the law, they should leave (e. g. “I can understand why some people love the speed and sound of these powerful speed boats, but they have a time and place for them and Lake Winni is not one of them.”).

I am not naïve enough to believe that it is only the “supporters” who have an agenda. However, from the side of certain of the “supporters”, the diatribes, misinformation, misleading and inaccurate conclusions and the elevation of an alleged subjective feeling that the Lake is somehow “better”, “nicer”, “safer” or “calmer” to a positive, provable and demonstrable fact is most disturbing and often sinks to the level of pedantic drivel in my opinion.

When and if the legislature considers a proposal to introduce a new bill imposing speed limits on the Lake I certainly expect the House and Senate to consider only positive, provable and demonstrable facts relevant to Lake Winnipesaukee in the analysis. Based on my experience and knowledge, such facts do not exist except in the minds of certain people.

[NoBozo]

We have 631 posts from maybe a dozen or two people, The situation is no more resolved now than it was at post number two. SO: Why does this continue? I am against the SL and I appreciate the people on my side who try to get their point across. It's time to shut this down. This is going nowhere. Trying to REASON with Liberals is FUTILE.

Anyone else feel this way..??? NB

[hazelnut]

I promised myself I would stop responding to the elchase because he is clearly and idiot and his mother did not show him any attention as a child.

#1 I am a male as has been pointed out several times. So now what you are doing is simple name calling so I will do the same to you Mr. Village Idiot.

#2 Being the fool you are you continue to misuse punctuation with regard to quotations and continue to tell me that I am wrong.

Silly boy why don't you show everyone your resource. I believe it was Answerbucket or some ridiculous website like that?

As I said before sir "You are an idiot." Note the period appears inside the quote.

Here is a link from Purdue. Yes Purdue not some fly by night stupid resource you are accustomed to citing.
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/

You look more and more foolish with every post. We are enjoying watching you embarrass yourself. I really wonder if I would actually show my face in public if I were you as you might get laughed at.

Sorry if I offended you with this post but turnabout is fair play as you continue to call me names, like a child. So I am stooping to your level.


Sunset, read el's previous post as reason why he "reaps what he sows." Again note the proper placement of the punctuation.

P.S. When you respond with the "I didn't know you were not a girl or I forgot." remember how much of an idiot you will look like. Everyone on here knew that I was male and you had been told several times. So if you want to confirm what we already knew about you please respond in kind.

[DEJ]

I agree NoBozo, time to shut this nonsense down. There are other websites where this issue is being discussed in a civil manner.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by DEJ

I agree NoBozo, time to shut this nonsense down. There are other websites where this issue is being discussed in a civil manner.

I'm done reading idiotic posts that is for sure. Although it can be entertaining there has been no new insight lately. Just name calling from one person. Sorry to have offended any other readers I thought we were making progress. I had come to enjoy Sunset and Yosemite Sam. Unfortunately elchase has ruined it for everyone else. I swear if he was banned this place would be beyond civil. I really do enjoy debating this issue with most of the SL supporters, save for one.

[Gavia immer]

There were NO concurring results from unmarked MP boats. The Marine Patrol claim that they did use unmarked boats in the speed test, however they failed to record which tests were done with marked boats and which were done with unmarked boats. So a piece of information that would go a long way to validating the data was never recorded.

Just one more indication that nobody ever took the study seriously. The study, none the less, did what it was intended to do. It delayed the SL by one year.

NObody took the study seriously?

That's a serious charge to say that the MPs intended to delay the SL for one year.

If the night limit had been in force last June, a young lady would still be alive. That is, had Erika been impressed with the seriousness of her driving record receiving a violation against it.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

We have 631 posts from maybe a dozen or two people, The situation is no more resolved now than it was at post number two. SO: Why does this continue? I am against the SL and I appreciate the people on my side who try to get their point across. It's time to shut this down. This is going nowhere. Trying to REASON with Liberals is FUTILE.

Anyone else feel this way..??? NB

While I agree most is nonsense.. If you notice it has come from one or two extreme posters.. If you look back when these posters were not constantly stirring this was a very civil conversation.

While it has gone down hill, there will be a new legisalative session where it is very important we discuss it here. That I believe is and has been a few posters agenda at all times. They hope the threads will be locked while they ram through the bill removing the sunset clause without discussion or notification.

I for one can use my ignore button until then. Less then one month away!. Stay tuned.

[Yosemite Sam]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

I'm done reading idiotic posts that is for sure. Although it can be entertaining there has been no new insight lately. Just name calling from one person. Sorry to have offended any other readers I thought we were making progress. I had come to enjoy Sunset and Yosemite Sam. Unfortunately elchase has ruined it for everyone else. I swear if he was banned this place would be beyond civil. I really do enjoy debating this issue with most of the SL supporters, save for one.

It sure can get intertaining at times and I guess kinda aggravating also. I am also sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do that.

As NoBoza said: "The situation is no more resolved now than it was at post number two. SO: Why does this continue?"

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

It sure can get intertaining at times and I guess kinda aggravating also. I am also sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do that.

whether or not that apology included me, I also want to say that I also did not mean to offend anyone directly, that does include you Yosemite...

I think with the new session coming up things are bound to get even more heated and it is posts like this that help to keep things civil and how things actually can get done.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Sam

It sure can get intertaining at times and I guess kinda aggravating also. I am also sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't my intention to do that.

As NoBoza said: "The situation is no more resolved now than it was at post number two. SO: Why does this continue?"

Honestly Sam I mean it. You are one of the many members that contribute to other threads on the site www.winnipesaukee.com I have read your posts and even collaborated with you on the site support forum when we were showing others the screencast/jing tool. You and many others on this website come here to talk all things Winnipesaukee. Unfortunately one person and only one person comes to this thread "Speed Limits" ONLY and tosses bombs and calls names and then accuses everyone ELSE of doing it first. He is a useless member of the winni.com community. He offers no other insight on any other thread all he does is come here and cause problems. I know we all look at our posts through rose colored glasses and we tend to lash out at posts that don't fit our own views but this person goes WAY WAY over the line with every post. It seems he is not happy unless he is creating controversy and bickering.

Sam thanks for the apology and I mean what I say about all of the SL supporters except one. We all would most likely enjoy each others company and we all know and appreciate how lucky we are to have access to this great resource, the lake and the website.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by NoBozo

We have 631 posts from maybe a dozen or two people, The situation is no more resolved now than it was at post number two. SO: Why does this continue? I am against the SL and I appreciate the people on my side who try to get their point across. It's time to shut this down. This is going nowhere. Trying to REASON with Liberals is FUTILE.

Anyone else feel this way..??? NB

I am pretty liberal (except for fiscal matters) and do not support the speed limit.

[Rattlesnake Guy]

Tonight on Letterman...

The top ten reasons this thread is about to be shut down..

#10 The bad feelings brewing here will spill over into the rest of the forum.

[Airwaves]

Is this your version of an apology? Give me a straightforward "I'm sorry" apology for accusing me of being a poacher and I will be very gracious and never mention it again

I never apologized, I simply said I made a mistake.

I will be very gracious

Not likely.

Another question dodged by Elchase:

1) A statistically reliable randomly conducted telephone poll showed NH citizens favoring a 45/25 MPH speed limit outnumber NH citizens opposing a 45/25 speed limit by a 9 to 1 margin with a +/-3% margin of error. These are the people who elected our legislators and will be voting again next fall.
2) There were 0 (zero) accidents on Lake Winnipesaukee last summer that could even be alleged to have been high-speed related.
3) With a speed limit in place and the MP monitoring boat speeds last summer, only 1 (one) boat was caught exceeding 45 MPH.
How are those for statistics?

Pretty lame. That continues shows that speed limits were never needed in the first place since it reenforces the Marine Patrol's snapshot of the lake in 2007 that less that 1 percent of the boats clocked by radar were exceeding 45 mph!

Since you brought it up in the final year prior to speed limits taking effect there were 2 boating fatalities in New Hampshire, but in the first year of speed limits that number doubled!

Using Elchase logic that means speed limits are to blame for a doubling of fatalities in New Hampshire in 2009 since everything else remained the same even though the 2009 fatalities had nothing to do with a boat traveling at much beyond headway speed!

Now getting back to the post you've been ignoring:

From this post it is OBVIOUS that YOU HAVE NEVER been part of a SAR (Search and rescue) operation! In every case there are dangers to the rescue boat and crew yet you try to dismiss it as if you are walking across the school yard and picking up a piece of paper.

[BroadHopper]

Originally Posted by elchase

Please do. Why ask me to do your research if you have your own sources? I'll hold my breath for you to come back and tell us what you find.

Done the research already. I have copies of all the minutes of the transportation committee regarding SL. Including the closed sessions and the public sessions. I don't see a note that Ryan blasted the marine patrol about their findings. Can you point to me your source to this claim? I'm getting tired of your spin.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

Been tried, didn't work, even more difficult to enforce than some of your perceptions of how hard it would be to enforce the SL. " And the law would be ignored by drunks". So now we have a SL. As far as trivializing the MP, many of your SL persuasion have not only trivialized them, but outright bashed them over the past months over issues like the 150' rule and NWZ's. And again, hearing today's description of the poker run a few years ago makes me certain they are not the ones who should be weighing in with their expert opinions about the need for a SL.

Sunset, why do you say it is hard to enforce? Just curious, I would think it would be easy with the right meters and a calibrated tachometer.

I would support a reasonable sound limit. People are tired of noise. I realize that a performance engine needs to have its exhaust uncorked a bit but straight pipes and the like are too loud. Noise laws are becoming more and more prevalent, on land and on the water.

If you go into any HD dealer, you will see signs about being more reasonable noisewise. Hopefully people are paying attention.

For the record, our boat is 350 Chevy powered with through the prop exhaust. My bike has a few baffles knocked out, loud enough without being obnoxious.

Of course everyone has a different opinion on this, that's cool with me!

[Airwaves]

From NoBozo

Trying to REASON with Liberals is FUTILE.

I have certainly been called liberal and I am strongly opposed to SL!

[sunset on the dock]

This post isn't directed at anyone in particular but rather a response to some of the sentiment expressed throughout the day yesterday and before. Maybe I'm missing something here...it wouldn't be the first time... but I'm a bit perplexed by some of the outrage expressed at El's posts. I mean the reaction and outrage directed to his comments reminds me of how a bunch of school girls might shriek when they heard a naughty word on the playground. Let's face it...no one on this forum is an innocent school girl. I realize some of the points made by El are difficult to hear (and would be difficult to sugar coat) but in my opinion many of them need to be made and I am glad they were made. All of us here can and should feel free to debate them. It's a forum. There's controversy inherent in the SL debate. All this talk about how the forum would be more "civilized" if he were gone and that Don should do this or that strikes me as very odd. If you don't like anything someone says on the forum...debate it. Let's leave the histrionics to the kids on the playground. JMHO. Seriously this isn't meant to offend and I'd be the first to admit I'm capable of staging my own histrionics.

[hazelnut]

Originally Posted by sunset on the dock

This post isn't directed at anyone in particular but rather a response to some of the sentiment expressed throughout the day yesterday and before. Maybe I'm missing something here...it wouldn't be the first time... but I'm a bit perplexed by some of the outrage expressed at El's posts. I mean the reaction and outrage directed to his comments reminds me of how a bunch of school girls might shreik when they heard a naughty word on the playground. No one on this forum is an innocent school girl. I realize some of the points made by El are difficult to hear (and would be difficult to sugar coat) but in my opinion many of them need to be made and I am glad they were made. All of us here can and should feel free to debate them. It's a forum. There's controversy inherent in the SL debate. All this talk about how the forum would be more "civilized" if he were gone and that Don should do this or that strikes me as very odd. If you don't like anything someone says on the forum...debate it. Let's leave the histrionics to the kids on the playground. JMHO. Seriously this isn't meant to offend anyone in particular and I'd be the first to admit I'm capable of staging my own histrionics.

Absolutely no offense taken. However, his continually calling me a she when he knows I am a he is indefensible. That is what set me off. It's one thing to debate and call each other out but he is acting like a child. I was merely pointing out a fact that no one member causes so much disharmony that elchase. It's the truth.

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by hazelnut

Absolutely no offense taken. However, his continually calling me a she when he knows I am a he is indefensible. That is what set me off. It's one thing to debate and call each other out but he is acting like a child. I was merely pointing out a fact that no one member causes so much disharmony that elchase. It's the truth.

And again my comments weren't being leveled at you in particular but in light of the he/she controversy perhaps I could have picked out a more appropriate analogy than the school girl one!