Bad economy/speed limit=bad news for lake businesses

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Personally I feel that there are many people who do not want to see how it actually will effect the economy because it will hurt there own agenda come 2 years from now. Having people aware of the situation due to discussions like this only helps determine the outcome. just my 2 cents.

So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?

First off let me say GREAT POST.. getting back to the heart of conversation.

Determining the effect will be very difficult, as I have stated before, because the data can not be directed directly at the speed limits. What I mean is how do we determine or estimate the lost revenue from a go fast boater that does not come to the lakes region. I don't think any data was collected before the SL so it is hard to shape a comparrison.

What I do know and can directly attribute to the SL is those people who have posted here and on other sites how they will not be coming to the lake this year due to the SL. I have spoken with at least a dozen friends who had enjoyed the lake, are not hurting $ wise, and now will be spending their hard earned dollars elsewhere.

What I have also noticed is that many people say this will be offset by the "many paddlers" who had felt unsafe and now will visit the lake. However, I have not seen or heard from this "large group" of individuals who have avoided the lake all these years and now will be coming.

But to draw a specific conclusion it will be very hard to differentiate between the down economy and the SLs.

One thing for certain is that although it may not be a huge loss in comparrison to the entire economy it will just be another straw that may break the camels back. In my own opinion adding insult to injury.

[OCDACTIVE]

Sorry to call you out specifically, but sa meredith and jeffk, it seems you guys are the only ones not enjoying the thread. May I suggest just not participating?

Totally your right to however.. Happy to have you. I just think it is everyones right to voice their thoughts whether you agree with them or not.

I think that since the SL's just took place, discussing if people have changed their plans due to them is a direct effect on the economy. By discussing these plans is the only way we will know if it is effecting the lakes region.

I just don't know what people are trying to hide. Flame away

[Skip]

There is no doubt in my mind that the factors contributing to a decline in boating last year, not only on Winni, but boating in general in New Hampshire were the economy, fuel prices and the weather.

This year gas prices have dropped significantly, and we don't know what the weather will bring. But anyone that doesn't think the economy is the greatest detriment to boating in general and tourism specifically is just ignoring the obvious.

The speed limit issue? While we play insider baseball here another fact is it just simply doesn't apply to most folks, and I bet a lot of the transient boating population gives it little thought, as with most boating regulations.

Will there be some folks that vote with their feet this year? Perhaps. But I am looking at the other sign of the coin. I currently have a 20 footer and boat with several friends over at Ossipee in the same length range. None of us have ventured over to Winni for several years as we are only up on weekends and have not wanted to deal with the foolishness.

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.

In closing I also understand JeffK and others concerns about this thread. I am very close but not yet ready to cast my vote for Don for closure because it is obvious to me that there are several posters here with very thinly veiled objectives. Maybe the dark side of me is waiting to say "I told you so".....

You can't fool and old fool.....

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by Skip

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Well said. We have heard from several posters about how much they spend in relation to their performance boats, i.e. gasoline, shoreside restaurants, etc.,and how kayakers/others would never spend as much. In reality, we all choose to spend our money in different ways. I may spend 5% of what a GFBL spends on gas and shoreside restaurants, yet I have more money left that I spend on, say, restaurants not on the town docks, charities in the lake's region (and of course these charities spend this money), maintenance on my very modest 60 y/o cabin, etc. We all choose to spend our money in different ways, and I know people on and around the lake who have very modest boats but who spend a great deal never the less.
What I have found disagreeable with some of the recent posts is the " I'm going to take my bat and ball and go home" mentality.

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Skip

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.

Hey Skip.. Great post.. By the way I love heading your directly to go to long sands.. Always a great time.

Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.

Anyway just making polite conversation.. I agree with you on most aspects.

[ironhorsetim]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.

It sure is going to leave more room at Braun Bay
Don't know about you but when my kids were young I could spend alot more in a weekend than two of those GFB's

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Hey Skip.. Great post.. By the way I love heading your directly to go to long sands.. Always a great time.

Just playing devils advocate but as you pointed out that several families on 20 footers may offset the one GFB, but now isn't that going to cause a safety issue as far as congestion. For the economy it would be great, but with things the way they are I doubt that "several" families have the extra $$ to offset.

Anyway just making polite conversation.. I agree with you on most aspects.

The economy will bottom in different areas at different times. I suspect a largely recreational and tourist area will be hurt this summer much more than some areas. We won't know until the July and August reports come in.

One of the biggest problems on Winni for smaller boats (mine is 22') on weekends has always been cruiser wakes. We used to have them parade by out on the neck all day long, with the boats lurching and yawing at the dock, begging for mercy. Trying to make it to the Weirs on a Saturday was amusing for us when younger, maybe not so funny anymore. That was in the 70's and 80's, so none of this is even remotely new.

If they're all still there, weekends are still far from an excellent experience on the lake.

I've found that on the highway, there was a dramatic change in speeds the minute gas prices headed down below $2 a gallon. Since I drive interstate daily, it's quite noticeable. While the economy has definitely gone downhill, the dramatic decrease in fuel costs should equalize the overall boating experience. If anything, hotels and restaurant would be hit harder than boating. The danger is that the loss of even 15% or less of clientele could shut down a lake business, then everyone suffers.

I remember Winni when it was pretty darn boring after 6 PM, as far as nightspots and waterfront activity went. Outside of the Weirs and a relatively tame Naswa, not much going on. It's pretty exciting to have places to go on the water, and makes for an experience that to this day I find amazing. Nothing like it. That holds for fishermen, watersports, whatever your chosen activity.

It takes a mix of people, hopefully responsible people, to make an area intriguing and pleasant. As much as I hate headway speed, there are obvious areas of congestion that should be heavily patrolled. This goes for unsafe at any speed boaters as well as cruisers with dangerous wakes. If the rules are applied evenly, and with common sense and courtesy, it makes for a better place. I hate irresponsible and dangerous boaters as much or more than anyone. It would be nice if they could be dealt with.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by Skip

Will there be some folks that vote with their feet this year? Perhaps. But I am looking at the other sign of the coin. I currently have a 20 footer and boat with several friends over at Ossipee in the same length range. None of us have ventured over to Winni for several years as we are only up on weekends and have not wanted to deal with the foolishness.

But guess what. We decided this off season that we are all going to make a number of day trips over to Winni, hoping that some of you are right. Less high speed or huge wake producing traffic will make a much more pleasant experience for us. And yes, maybe one family on a 20 footer won't drop as much cash as a boatload in a GF boat, but if several families and smaller craft take the footprint of one departing "big spender" I think the net amount spent quickly balances out.

Just my thoughts.

My father used to let us kids take the boat on weekends, since he couldn't stand the crowds out on the lake. I'm being totally honest here, as the owner of a 22 footer, that I'd take fifty go fasts if I could get rid of the monster wakes. Regulate the mad tubers driving in people's paths, the wild and crazy PWC riders, those that speed through NWZ's, Winni would be better than ever.

Videos would say more than I possibly could.

[Woodsy]

Where are the 20' average joe boaters going to launch thier boats? More than a few public ramps, but most are resident only and have little trailer parking. I just dont see great numbers of average joe boaters replacing anyone....

Go fast or Go slow... In this economy, I think any loss of business is bad thing.

Sunset

You make one good point... everybody does spend thier money the way they see fit! However, the business model for waterfront establishments isnt too good if your replacement plan for the lack of big $$$ spenders is to replace them with people who spend thier money elsewhere.

Woodsy

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Where are the 20' average joe boaters going to launch thier boats? More than a few public ramps, but most are resident only and have little trailer parking. I just dont see great numbers of average joe boaters replacing anyone....

Go fast or Go slow... In this economy, I think any loss of business is bad thing.

Sunset

You make one good point... everybody does spend thier money the way they see fit! However, the business model for waterfront establishments isnt too good if your replacement plan for the lack of big $$$ spenders is to replace them with people who spend thier money elsewhere.

Woodsy

My point is that business will move from one lake's region venue to another. Some of the "I'm taking my bat and ball and going home crowd" insists that there will be a major economic hit in the lake's region due to speed limits, when in fact it may be a shifting of tourist dollars from some businesses to the benefit of others in the same tourist area. And not that I'm sayng these waterfront restaurants will do all that badly anyway...in fact I plan on using my boat more this summer and suspect the out to dinner by boat experience will be far more enjoyable. I suspect many others may feel the same way.

[OCDACTIVE]

Sunset.... For the business owners sake I hope you are right.

Many GFB owners trailer their boats and rent a house / condo for a week or two at a time. Frankly the lake becomes small very quickly for a GFB. However due to the other activities and places to visit around the lake it still is a great place to visit.

My friends that normally would either rent a place or come and leave their boats at my dock are deciding not to come at all. Even though the lake gets small quickly for GFB we still like to be able to use them. I quick ride from Moultonboro to Alton for lunch or Wolfboro for dinner is always a good time. But they are saying that because of the hassell they are going to go to Maine.

So yes you are right there will be a shift, economy wise, but to an entirely different state.

[chipj29]

Originally Posted by VtSteve

My father used to let us kids take the boat on weekends, since he couldn't stand the crowds out on the lake. I'm being totally honest here, as the owner of a 22 footer, that I'd take fifty go fasts if I could get rid of the monster wakes. Regulate the mad tubers driving in people's paths, the wild and crazy PWC riders, those that speed through NWZ's, Winni would be better than ever.

Videos would say more than I possibly could.

Other than a family in a bowrider, kayaks and canoes, who does that leave?

[sunset on the dock]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

Sunset.... For the business owners sake I hope you are right.

Many GFB owners trailer their boats and rent a house / condo for a week or two at a time. Frankly the lake becomes small very quickly for a GFB. However due to the other activities and places to visit around the lake it still is a great place to visit.

My friends that normally would either rent a place or come and leave their boats at my dock are deciding not to come at all. Even though the lake gets small quickly for GFB we still like to be able to use them. I quick ride from Moultonboro to Alton for lunch or Wolfboro for dinner is always a good time. But they are saying that because of the hassell they are going to go to Maine.

So yes you are right there will be a shift, economy wise, but to an entirely different state.

But again, the point is that those houses/condos might well fill with people who are looking for a different lake experience now that we have speed limits. I know people who feel this way about Winnipesaukee. As far as Maine, there is now more and more momentum for similar limits on their lakes. Many people on these Maine lakes(as well as other NH lakes) do not want to feel that they will become the dumping grounds for these performance boats.

[VtSteve]

Originally Posted by chipj29

Other than a family in a bowrider, kayaks and canoes, who does that leave?

I don't think I'd leave out the bowriders necessarily. What I mean is Enforce regulations, weed out and stop the negligent and dangerous people on the water. I've heard some pretty ridiculous stuff on this topic about how they feel the lake will suddenly become safe and pleasant. Everyone needs to pay attention to all of the laws, in addition to using some common sense and decency. Every group feels that it's someone else that's the issue.

After all is said and done, the lake will still be infested with problems that existed well before the perceived go fast problems. There's jerks in every category of watersport. My three biggest problems last year were with family bowriders towing tubes. At any rate, it will be interesting to witness.

[Woodsy]

Skip...

I agree with you that the economy is the biggest elephant in the room! However HB-847 does nothing to effect the big cruisers throwing big wakes. While there might be less hi-speed boat traffic. There will be the huge wakes thrown by the big cruisers...

Bang me a PM when you & the guys are heading over this way and we can meet up!

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

So I'd ask everyone to pretend they had perfect info of whatever type they thought needed. How would "you" go about determining the effect ? What would you look at, measure ? How would you decide what's attributable to the SL and what's due to other causes ?

Most of the folks who own the boats targeted by HB-847 can afford to spend the $$$... The question is will they spend that $$$ here or someplace else.

There is no easily quantifiable measure to judge the effect the speed limit will have on the economy, especially when you consider how bad the economy currently is. However, we can an idea if there was an effect at all, by looking at the amount of high test gasoline pumped on the lake, and a quick check with the charities conducting the poker runs. (these tend to attract the Hi-Performance boats that the speed limit targets) To be sure there will be an economic effect... but i am pretty sure its going to be a ripple noticed only by those businesses directly affected and barely noticed (if at all) by the general public.

The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


Woodsy

[OCDACTIVE]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


Woodsy

WOW Skip and Woodsy way to get to the heart of the subject.. I just wanted to chime in and say I am greatly impressed to the clarity of your posts. Top notch!

Woodsy I really like how you broke down the quantifiable costs of the limit itself. My only question is where would we get that information? I wonder if they will even post the data or if it is even calculated at all.

Although opposed to the SL or many different aspects I will say I think they would have worked better as money generator for the state if it was not linked to your MVR.

Just think about how many more people are going to fight their tickets and how much it will cost the state. Not to mention even before they were inacted how much difficulty proving accuracy.

Anyway, just wanted to say Thank you both for your posts. They show why this thread has value.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by Woodsy

Skip...

I
The success or failure of the speed limit is easily quantifiable... How many tickets written? at what time/conditions? what was the outcome of the ticket? fine paid (no contest in court)? fine paid (contested in court)? no fine (case dismissed in court)? How much did the MP spend on enforcement? Cost of Patrols? Court Costs?

I suspect the number of boat registrations will be down this year and next given the state of things... this DIRECTLY affects MP funding and staffing levels. Cost will become (as I predicted a long time ago) a very big part of the speed limit equation...


Woodsy

I too am very curious as to how this will shake out. I'm not sure I agree with the statement that the speed limit success or failure is easily quantified or that I really understand your point. I think from my experience on the lake and the much poo pooed MP data from last year that there aren't too many boats going over 45 mph, except for a few instances. So I don't think too many speeding tickets will be written. MP will probably be pilloried for this. I do expect to see MP boats changing course to try and clock me on my jet ski, we'll see.

Anyway, I predict a very interesting boating season.

[Lakepilot]

We have a 25 foot Cobalt that wide open goes real fast. I don't think of it as a go fast boat, but it is. But even though it goes like a bat out of you know where, our most enjoyable times are just cruising around the lake, looking at other boats, cottages or the mountains. I do that at a speed well below wide open throttle. It just feels better. My choice of speed is apparently a lot easier then many others though. My bow angle is almost independent of speed - as is my wake. I don't like crawling around the lake - takes to long to see things. I can't imagine just opening the throttle thow and going around the lake at full speed. I would miss a lot. I guess when I was younger I got a thrill out of wanting to go as fast as possible from a to b, but now I just want to enjoy the lake.

[Skip]

I guess I am extremely disappointed.

While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact.

That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions.

Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster.

I vote that you close this thread immediately.

Thanks...

[VtSteve]

I think I see what you mean Skip, but possibly overreacting, or maybe I'm just naive in hoping people grow up. I see what you see too, and I think it hurts the balanced and objective arguments more on one side than another. Not too surprising given the time of year, and the new year's issues. There are less than civil discussions going on, but this one has remained pretty open in my opinion.

For those that do engage in the type of behavior that Skip is addressing. That attitude is part of the reason many laws are being written across the country. I would specifically point to the Maine case as being a poster ad for stricter limits. If people don't think you're mature enough to even understand their concerns, then they'll find a way to curb your activities. Even though I don't agree with the outcome, I fully understand why it happened.

I also understand that failing to address the concerns of the other side will not help your cause. Attacking people and other such in your face actions pretty much rule out any form of negotiations. Without constructive discussion, it gives people the impression that some people need adult supervisions.

I hope you've viewed most of my blathering as constructive here Skip. With exceptions, all sides have been aired out. One thing for sure. The lake will always be an attraction, recessions or not.

[sa meredith]

Originally Posted by Skip

I guess I am extremely disappointed.

While I was concerned at the beginning of this thread that it would eventually spiral back into the speed limit debate, I realized that there is still a lot of passion about the issue and this thread contains posts from good people on both sides of that issue that were trying to explore a different angle, the possible economic impact.

That said something still didn't set right with me. So, being the curious individual that I am I poked around some other websites tonight. I won't name names nor will I dredge up the other sites, but suffice to say I found the smoking gun. It is obvious to me that at least one (and possibly several)poster in this thread does not truly care about the diverse opinions regarding possible economic impacts. I was very troubled to read some of the extremely negative comments this individual has made against this website and against posters here that were enticed to offer their opinions.

Don, this thread is going nowhere fast. While I believe the original poster was sincere in his question, this thread and discussion has become a trojan horse for at least one organization that has savaged this website, it's posters and you, our webmaster.

I vote that you close this thread immediately.

Thanks...

Well said Skip.
I made the exact same point in post #50 of this thread:

But they have long since turned into the same regurgitated garbage over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again! All this thread is, is a disguise to start it up again. Anyone can see this


It has been obvious from the start. Surprised Don has let it contiue.
The sarcasm disguised as politeness in many posts here is almost comical

[VtSteve]

I mostly agree with your post #50 SA. This summer will be a tough one for boaters, not to mention the continued drought in the boat business. Every group likes to think they're the most important, which I sense is the feeling some have regarding their relative importance on the lake's economy.

I think the most obvious economic impact this season will be those that couldn't recover from unwise spending from home refis and interest rate adjustments. This will have some impact on properties for sale, boats not launched, and probably will lessen the traffic on the lake in general. The rest will have to make choices if money's tight. Do we go out in the boat every weekend, or just sit back and hang out? Dining out or eating in? Basics of life.

I saw decreased activity last summer due to the gas prices. Two groups "seemed" to be impacted the most, from my own totally unscientific observations. Less flashy boats bombing around. I surmise these are the folks that bought expensive machines they really could not afford to run anyway, especially at $5 a gallon. House as ATM machine and all that. Recreational boaters were much more sedate, mostly at anchor rather than bussing around. But last summer was dreadful weather, so taking that into account, who really knows?

The Lakes Region has survived many economic downturns, like to one in the 80's where it seemed every other waterfront property was for sale. It will continue to survive as it always has. Just another reminder that huge debt leverage and living beyond your means usually ends badly.

[hazelnut]

I think the melodramatic posts could use a rest here. I did my own detective work and came across the same posts you did skip. Seriously though we are all adults here and we can choose not to read a forum if we think it may offend us, god forbid. So far I haven't seen anything that has even approached close to the old debate. Seriously though this is a forum for ideas and debate. As soon as someone offers up an opinion that you don't like we need to shut it down???

Skip I really do believe that you and SA are very knowledgeable excellent posters but I do believe you are overreacting a tad. Almost 5,000 hits on this thread to me means that people are interested in the topic. So Don please don't be so quick to close. There is a valid argument somewhere in all of this superfluous junk. I think we can all tolerate the occasional poster lamenting the law and not staying on topic. We're adults here folks try and moderate yourselves so Don doesn't.

[webmaster]

This topic is closed until further notice.

[OCDACTIVE]

Now that the season is half over, and the debate has been opened up, is there any evidence and data people can attest to due to the limits either way? I realize as pointed out be an earlier poster back in the beginning of the season the lakes economy is going to be effected most by weather and overall fiscal economy more so then speed limits.

Well we have seen for sure how much the weather has directly effected boat turn out which can also be attributed to the overall economy. But has anyone spoken to those we were most concerned about? Gas station owners, on the lake resturants etc? to get a feel for if they have seen a slowdown in GFB's and if it has effected them?

I would be interested to hear any thought, facts and do I dare say "opinions" on the matter.

Although a previous poster alluded to there being an underlying attempt to push an agenda here. I think many people would like to continue this dialog about the lakes economy including myself.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by OCDACTIVE

"...I would be interested to hear any thought, facts and do I dare say "opinions" on the matter..."

This is not an opinion:

My realtor's agent (Maxfield Realty) sent out a letter this past April requesting that cottage rentals for this season be reduced up to 40%.

My three "rentable" neighbors (directly to the west) have been filled all season—the first season this has happened!

("Ebbtide" boats—with rental numbers—have been featured).