Drunk (speeding) boater crahes, Lake George

[Airwaves]

It appears it is certainly not likely to ever happen.

RSA 270-D:13 II. Once issued, the certificate of safe boater education shall be valid for the lifetime of the person and may not be revoked by the department of safety or a court without cause and a hearing in accordance with RSA 541-A.

Unlike a license, a certificate is just that, a certificate that you accomplished something. A license is different. The NH Boating regulations require a certificate stating that you have successfully completed a NASBLA approved boating course/test.

We can debate what a boating license is if you'd like. In NH it appears to me to be an additional written test and a small fee. Much different from a USCG license.

I did look at RSA 541-A and I didn't see anything regarding the revokation of an individual certificate. I did see a way to revoke agency certficates or so I think. Granted I did not read the entire RSA but if you would be so kind as to show me how NH can revoked an individual certificate of accomplishment?
No, I'm not being a Smart Ass I just didn't see the wording.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/Rules/revstatannot.html

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

...Unlike a license, a certificate is just that, a certificate that you accomplished something. A license is different. The NH Boating regulations require a certificate stating that you have successfully completed a NASBLA approved boating course/test...I did look at RSA 541-A and I didn't see anything regarding the revokation of an individual certificate. I did see a way to revoke agency certficates or so I think. Granted I did not read the entire RSA but if you would be so kind as to show me how NH can revoked an individual certificate of accomplishment?...

In New Hampshire, like a number of other States, in order to operate a motorized watercraft with HP in excess of 25 HP you must posess the NASBLA approved Safety Certificate. If you do not posess such a certificate you cannot operate such watercraft. By virtue of the fact that posession of such certificate is mandated by the State, the certificate is in effect your "license and privilege" to operate as mandated by the State. The word "license" does not have to appear to make a document or certificate meet the legal definition of license.

As previously mentioned in the above mentioned RSA, the State has the authority to revoke the issued lifetime certificate by following adjudication defined in RSA 541-A. If you go to RSA 541-A you will find the guidelines defining adjudicatory procedures for the necesary hearing defined in RSA 541-A:30 and several following paragraphs.

Synopsis? While the document issued to the boater in New Hampshire is indeeed a certificate, the mandatory requirement of posession of that certificate to operate certain watercraft make that certificate by law a license to operate, and therefore an item that is issued and hence can be revoked or suspended by the issuing authority.

,

[SIKSUKR]

If there's one thing I have learned while being a part of this forum it's never ever doubt Skips knowledge of the law.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

If there's one thing I have learned while being a part of this forum it's never ever doubt Skips knowledge of the law.

....but I do have an unfair advantage!

[Airwaves]

Although I still have my doubts. Since the certificate is required to boat on NH waters, but that certificate can be issued by any agency with NASBLA anywhere in the country (for all practile purposes) what authority does NH have to 'revoke' a certificate issued outside of the State of New Hampshire?

In my case my certifcate was issued by the US Coast Guard Auxiliary. The US Power Squadron certificates are also recognized by NH but not issued by a state. etc etc.

[2Blackdogs]

I think you're right, AW.

Only Connecticut has been actively revoking boating certificates. An offender has two days to return his certificate to the state after revocation.

That means that there are 37+ states where a boater convicted of BWI can show the NH Marine Patrol a "valid" boating certificate. In reality, it's a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, since a driver's license is not required for identity on NH waters.

This woman can be boating and crashing on Winni even after a BWI conviction. This sets back boater-education even more than online testing already has.

[lakershaker]

I agree with Skip, but would like to add some information that may have been overlooked. The Boating Certificate is in effect your license, in that is shows you have passed a test of knowledge. However, having that license in and of itself does not grant you the right or privilege to operate a boat. That is separate. When you are convicted of BWI, your privilege to operate a boat is revoked for one year under RSA 270:48-a II(b). The certificate says you acquired knowlege through a course and test: that can't be changed. However, whether you have that card or not, under RSA 270:48-a II(b), you can't use it to operate a boat for one year. After that year is up, you still have the certificate and can then use it again.

[Skip]

Let me try this one last time....

If you go back and re-read post #34, the question I answered is can New Hampshire authorities revoke or suspend a New Hampshire issued boating certificare.

The law is clear, after a just cause hearing held in accordance with RSA 541-A they can indeed revoke your New Hampshire certificate.

However, we are all apparently in agreement that New Hampshire authorities cannot revoke a permit issued by another State, just as they cannot revoke a license issued by another State.

Additionally, if you are a New Hampshire resident and are convicted of DWI in this State, or any other State that has reciprocity with New Hampshire, regardless of the length of suspension of your New Hampshire driver's license you lose your privilege to operate a boat in New Hampshire for one year.

Also, while you are not required to have or display a driver's license when stopped by the NHMP, they will still (via radio or cellular phone) use your name and date of birth to run a license check through Dispatch to verify your identity and check your license status.

Why?

Lets say you are a New Hampshire resident under suspension for DWI and you get stopped and show the NHMP officer a North Carolina NASBLA certificate. The officer will still run a license check and discover that you are under suspension in New Hampshire and you will subsequently be arrested. You would be amazed at the speed and accuracy of the SPOTS system.

Hopefully this clarifies any loose ends.....

And as usual, if you would like to be bored by additional RSAs, Administrative Rules or applicable New Hampshire case law, please feel free to contact me off-line.

Skip

[Airwaves]

My drivers license however states "Massachusetts Drivers License"

My entire point is that a certificate of accomplishment is not a license. A license has a finite lifespan. Certainly NH can revoke a person's right to operate a boat on NH waters but they can not revoke a certificate of accomplishment.

NH and the Coast Guard, and some other jurisdictions do offer boating licenses, but they are generally for folks involved in the commercial aspect of boating not the average recreational boater. Those licenses are for a finite period of time, with specific restrictions and must be reapplied for upon expiring, unlike a certificate of accomplishment.

I just looked at my US Coast Guard Auxiliary certificate, it "certifies" I successfully completed the course, it does not contain my DOB or any other information beyond my name.

Certainly NH can revoke boating privileges, and certainly NH can revoke a license issued by the state, but a certifcate of accomplishment is not a license.

My entire point is this. The use of the word license when talking about a certificate of accomplishment is not accurate.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

...My entire point is that a certificate of accomplishment is not a license. A license has a finite lifespan. Certainly NH can revoke a person's right to operate a boat on NH waters but they can not revoke a certificate of accomplishment...

Firmly but politey, you are in error.

I can inform the reader from direct professional experience that the State can revoke a NH Boater Certificate, no matter how much you want to quibble over the definition of "license", as allowed clearly by State statute.

Let me quote the State statute (RSA) directly to eliminate any lingering confusion:


270-D:13 Issuance of Safe Boater Education Certificate. –

... II. Once issued, the certificate of safe boater education shall be valid for the lifetime of the person and may not be revoked by the department of safety or a court without cause and a hearing in accordance with RSA 541-A. ...

I have already pointed out to you, in a previous post, the applicable portions of RSA 541-A that govern the hearing process that dictates the procedures necessary for a Court or the DOS to revoke your NH issued boating certificate.

Let me make it even simpler with a little phrase I was introduced to several decades ago at the NH Police Academy:

...What the State giveth (by RSA) then the State can taketh away (by RSA)...


And finally, the Administrative process for revocation:


Saf-C 6107.03 Revocation of Certificate.

(a) Upon showing of just cause, pursuant to RSA 270-D:13, II, a boating certificate shall be revoked after a hearing.

(b) The revocation period shall not exceed one year. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary, if after the hearing the hearing examiner finds that the holder of the safe boater education certificate shall benefit from reattending a safe boater education course, the hearing examiner shall set forth his or her findings in his or her order and the holder of the safe boater education certificate shall not have his or her certificate reinstated until he or she has complied with the hearing examiner's order.

(c) Just cause, for the purposes of (a) above, shall include, but not be limited to:

(1) Conviction of a boating while intoxicated; or

(2) Conviction of any act that indicates a reckless disregard for the safety of the public on the state's waters.

(d) For the purposes of this section, the scope of the hearing shall be limited to:

(1) A review of the court abstract;

(2) Whether the individual has been boating to endanger the public; and

(3) Whether the individual is the named person on the court abstract or complaint.



Anyway, this issue is not in dispute as the authority to revoke with just cause is clearly annotated in State law.

Hope this explains it a little better for you, but as always I encourage you to call 603-293-2037 and have the Duty Supervisor explain it to you directly.

Safe Boating,

Skip

[2Blackdogs]

Any convicted BWI can take an on-line exam from a different state, shuffle their identity names/initials, "err" on a number or two, and magically re-appear on Winni.

Nobody certifies the information on the boating certificate.

Like in the purchase of alcohol, nobody should accept the certificate on face value and neither should the MPs use it as identification.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by 2Blackdogs

Any convicted BWI can take an on-line exam from a different state, shuffle their identity names/initials, "err" on a number or two, and magically re-appear on Winni.

Nobody certifies the information on the boating certificate.

Like in the purchase of alcohol, nobody should accept the certificate on face value and neither should the MPs use it as identification.

You are absolutely correct, the NHMP should not use the "revocable" NH boating certificate from this State, or any certificate from any other State as identification. And that is why they will hold you, as authorized under RSA 270:12-b until you provide a positive means of identification that can be verified through SPOTS back at dispatch. Specifically:

270:12-b Disobeying an Officer. –
I. No person, while operating or otherwise in charge of a vessel, raft, or float of any kind, type, or character or an amphibian or pontoon aircraft under step speed shall:
(a) Knowingly refuse, when requested by a peace officer or agent of the director, to give his name, address, and date of birth, and the name and address of the owner of the vessel, raft, float or amphibian or pontoon aircraft of any kind, type, or character;
(b) Knowingly refuse, on demand of a peace officer or agent of the director, to sign his name in the presence of such officer or agent;
(c) Knowingly refuse, on demand of a peace officer or agent of the director, to produce some means of positive identification such as a driver's license, passport, or other document, or to verify his identity by some other means so that the identity of the operator or person otherwise in charge of a vessel can be determined with reasonable certainty by such peace officer or agent of the director;
(d) Knowingly neglect to stop when signaled to stop by any peace officer or agent of the director, who is in uniform or who displays his badge conspicuously on the outside of his outer coat or garment, or who signals such person to stop by means of any authorized audible or visual emergency warning signals; or otherwise willfully attempt to elude pursuit by a peace officer or agent of the director by increasing speed, extinguishing lights while still in motion, or abandoning a vessel while being pursued;
(e) Knowingly refuse, when requested by a peace officer or agent of the director, to:
(1) direct said amphibian or pontoon aircraft, vessel, raft, or float to shore or to any dock, wharf, or mooring designated by said officer or agent;
(2) follow any vessel operated or controlled by any peace officer or agent of the director to any point on shore, or any wharf or mooring designated by said officer or agent; or
(3) allow said officer or agent to direct or tow said boat, raft, or float to any point on shore or to any dock, wharf, or mooring.
II. Any person who fails to comply with the requirements of this section or provides a false name, address, or date of birth shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

The scenario you surmise in your opening paragraph will result in the offender being charged with a misdemeanor. In addition, operating after revocation for drugs or alcohol will also result in additional misdemeanor charges. Believe me, an arrest under the conditions you suggest makes a NHMP officer's day, and NH judges historically throw the book at offenses as you describe as deterrent for future offenses. Many inmates at NH County Jails have been caught doing just as you described, albeit on the motor vehicle side.

For those of you that may be curious, NHMP HQ (Dispatch) is fully integrated with the NH State Police and FBI SPOTS systems, giving NHMP officers full access to all 50 States and a number of foreign jurisdiction data bases. Also, a number of vessels plying Winni & the coast are having the Project 54 systems installed onboard, which gives the officer in the field full access to the same databases without even going through dispatch. Smaller vessels can contact supervisor based P54 platforms via radio or cell phone along with dispatch 24/7. And the beauty of the system? The data transfer is instantaneous, due to substantial nationwide upgrades installed post 9/11.

I can just about guarantee that if you are stupid enough to attempt what was suggested in the previous post, you will spend at least a portion of your penalty at one of our finer countywide run inns & resorts.

I'll make sure to beep the horn as I pass you roadside while you're mowing or bagging trash!

[2Blackdogs]

Nobody's advocating fake ID. It exists, and the boating certificate may be one of the cheapest and easiest fake IDs to get. Fake IDs are a fact of life in college towns.

This boater, stupid enough to boat drunk and hit Happy Family Island, could lose her driving license. OR produce a fake ID. She can still carry passport identification in NH and produce an out of state boating certificate while boating on Winni. Flashing of the boating certificate at arm's length was sufficient for one PWC MP last season, who stopped a boat towing six kids on a tube. He stayed less than a minute before heading off in another direction.