HUB status in Moultonborough

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by longislander

The .036/1000 relates to the building.
The .06/1000 relates to the operating costs ... allegedly.

The combination of the two, if correct, would give the annual cost, presumably for, say a ten year bond etc. (my guess).

The survey states " $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value"

I did my home assessment and came up with a difference of $196 from my present annual tax and the added cost tax. I then attempted to extrapolate for a total cost to build. I have my number, but will wait till the Dec. 15 select board meeting when the proponents of The Hub are supposed to give an update on the survey. They will probably be asked, outright, what is the cost.There's a reason the absolute value of the cost (present value) is not on the survey.

You may already have, but here is valuations assigned by the NH DRA:

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/mun-prop/...-tax-rates.pdf

You'll note the valuations, total tax rate and total commitment.

These numbers maker it interesting, and also understandable from the proponents perspective. If a person expects to use the facility regularly, even once/month or two, then $200/year (and presumably $1200 up front) is a no-brainer.

Of course, for those who do not expect to use it periodically, especially if on a fixed income...

[John Mercier]

I always wondered this concept...

Explain ''fixed income''.

Inflation goes up 10%... SS goes up 10%... and working labor wages go up 3-5%.

Medicare goes up 10%, and a limit kicks in... market medical insurance goes up 10%... and workers lose their health insurance.

I think we ''overplay'' the ''fixed income'' a bit.
It isn't like many seniors couldn't go back to work... they just don't want to.

[longislander]

Here we go!

Explain ''fixed income"

I think we ''overplay'' the ''fixed income'' a bit.
It isn't like many seniors couldn't go back to work... they just don't want to.
Today 03:05 PM

Explain fixed income:
Simple: that income which an individual can provide himself/herself (cognizant reflexive pronouns) into day-to-day activities to survive in that same society, or continue to exist in a norm deemed acceptable, in some semblance of societal acceptance, let alone self-respect, and deemed "worthy".

Not everyone has "benes". I'm fortunate to have some (many). No gifts ... I worked for them; in industries (plural) and including close to two years in Vietnam with the 189th Assault Helicopter Company, Army, (doorgunner in UH-1 and school-trained in Avionics)(in Vietnam, May 1967-Feb.1969, Pleiku, Central Highlands) supposedly fighting for our democracy, which is actually a republic.

I'm 75 years young and living comfortably in Moultonborough (have property/2nd home since 1974) on fixed income ... SSA ... pension ... RMD. I don't need my RMD and would rather not be required to take it out. I have more trouble figuring out what to do with my RMD.

Are you?

Bring it up again when you're my age.

[John Mercier]

But your income is not ''fixed'' if it adjusts for inflation... the real world doesn't do that. Hence why real wages are down.

[longislander]

But your income is not ''fixed'' if it adjusts for inflation... the real world doesn't do that. Hence why real wages are down.

Of course, for those who do not expect to use it periodically, especially if on a fixed income...

Most of us understood what was meant and in what context.

FlyingScot didn't say "fixed" but "fixed income".

Google "fixed income", or better yet Google "fixed income definition" and see what you get.

Here's Merriam Webster dictionary for"fixed income":
" having a uniform or relatively uniform annual income or yield
bonds and preferred stocks are fixed-income securities
inflation has its hardest impact on such fixed-income groups as people who have retired on social security"


Ya, ... I suspect you didn't mean investments ...google "fixed income" anyway and see.

You have no idea of my income, "fixed" as in "static" as I believe you intended.

"Adjustments to inflation" are varied. Those on Social Security just got a COLA. Ask many of them if their Soc Sec. income is still "fixed" relative to living expenses ... or actualy went down substanstially relative to inflation. Does "fixed" count if living expenses skyrocket?

The thread conversation was evolving about relative costs to a proposed town tax increase, not a literal definition of a word ... "fixed" ... but subject to interpretation.

Wages are not the same as income. Are wages down:

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/realer.nr0.htm

How about layoffs and bankruptcies?

[John Mercier]

"fixed income" when truly an inflation-adjusted income... is an oxymoron. Especially when using it to infer that retirees are in more of a financial bind than the employed population.

It is like crying wolf... and why many times they are voted against.

[longislander]

... is an oxymoron

You've got it half-right.

[winni83]

In the agenda packet for the Board of Selectmen's meeting tomorrow the "Cost Estimate" for the HUB is included, along with an estimate of operating costs. I have not been though it yet, but note that the cost is estimated to be $14,243,515 if I read it correctly.

See12_15_22_bos_agenda_packet Cost Estimate.pdf

[longislander]

Build cost: $ $14,243, 415
Operating cost: $394,432 less $125,000 income = $269,432

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit..._3-14-2022.pdf

Agenda packet:

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...nda_packet.pdf

Agenda pages 6-27 are the Architects, Stewart Associates, build
specifications.


Pages 28-44 are Conestco's probable costs
Agenda page 28 is summary of cost
Agenda pages 29-43 is detail of Conestco opinion of probable build cost
Agenda page 44 is Conestco probable annual operating cost and income

[phoenix]

hope someone goes to the meeting to give us a report. Hard to believe that this size of unnecessary project could get thru the town meeting .

[longislander]

hope someone goes to the meeting to give us a report. Hard to believe that this size of unnecessary project could get thru the town meeting .

I'm usually there for the select board, two business meetings per month, but not the work sessions.

Looking at the agenda and The Hub is scheduled for section VI, A, and depending on how long the badge ceremony lasts (Section III,A) I'd guess around 4:10-4:20 PM or so is when the Hub part of the meeting should come up. presumption is the proponents of the Hub will go to the mike and give an update.

If you have time, go to the stream and watch the stream live.

https://townhallstreams.com/towns/moultonborough_nh

[ITD]

Not all "fixed income" is a government program. There are pension schemes that are fixed income, people rely on things like annuities too. Even Social security, with it's increases should still be considered a fixed income. Adjusting for inflation does not increase the spending power. In fact, many would argue that inflation indices used to quantify inflation aren't even close to reality.

[phoenix]

hard to believe you can run this facility for less that 400K

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by ITD

Not all "fixed income" is a government program. There are pension schemes that are fixed income, people rely on things like annuities too. Even Social security, with it's increases should still be considered a fixed income. Adjusting for inflation does not increase the spending power. In fact, many would argue that inflation indices used to quantify inflation aren't even close to reality.

But when you are using it to imply that the working population isn't hurting like those with inflation-adjusted retirement incomes, it is going to fall on very deaf ears.

Especially since the working population is seeing their incomes increase at a slower rate than the ''fixed'' incomes. I see it every day. We have a lot more working poor *yes - I know that is considered not PC currently* than we wish to admit to.

[longislander]

What I'm confused about is regarding the Conestco cost $14,512,847 relative to the survey questions and town valuation.

Survey:

Would you vote in support of building The HUB as designed, if the impact to taxpayers was LESS than $0.36/$1000 of town assessed property value?

Would you vote in support of building The HUB as designed, if the annual operating costs after construction, had an impact to taxpayers of LESS than $0.06/$1000 of town assessed property value?

($.36/$1,000 + $.06/$1,000) of the survey X town assessed value $4,892,023,118 (without the added Hub cost) is:

.00042 X $4,892,023,118 = $2,054,650

If the survey is factoring a bond somewhere, it would be unusual for a town to have less than a ten year bond at some % interest.

$2million + a year for ten years would be in the $20 million+ range, not $14.5 million of the Conestco quote.

[John Mercier]

The bond would not include the operating cost... just the build cost.

.36/1000 x 4,892,023,118 = 1,761,128.32

The value of the HUB does not come into play as town property is not in the total assessment, it is treated as a non-profit devoid of property taxes.

The above figure using a 10 bond would make the bond value vary with the interest rate to be paid.

A mortgage calculator estimates that would be about a 4% bond rate using 10 years as the term.

[longislander]

I agree about the operating cost not being part of the bond.

The two numbers were just to highlight the expense to the town and let folks play with the numbers. They are both paid by the taxpayers ... at some point.

The Hub building is not a non-profit. The 501C(3) non-profit (HUB Community Center Working Group) is a group formed to get funds for a new town building, on town property. They are a separate entity. The building (not the group) would then be added to town assets.

I introduced a bond into the thread since bonds were not mentioned in the survey nor costs estimates (at least I didn't notice). I do not disagree with your estimate of the bond. Why haven't you included your calculations, or at least the link to the calculator you used?

https://www.nhmbb.org/

https://www.nhmbb.org/images/pdfs/Fi...eries_C_OS.pdf

In the past (almost annually) the recreation center warrant article on the town warrant has been by petition. It appears that this attempt is to have the select board submit by appropriation, not petition. Might look better coming from the governing body.

The debate/vote at town meeting will be " for, school crowd" v. "against, seniors" to get the 3/5ths majority vote to approve the warrant article (usually one article including bond).

The seniors might ask why ten years. Why not 29 years. Let the younger crowd pay longer since they will enjoy a lot longer before the building is paid off. A floor motion to amend the bond, presuming there is one (I "presumed" the bond into this thread) could cause more confusion at town meeting.

I did send this to the select board and town moderator.

RE: bonds.
Dated NHMA article; 2012
"Thus, any amendment to a bond article must satisfy not only RSA 39:2, but must also not change the “subject” for purposes of RSA 33:8-a, I. There are no Supreme Court cases on the scope of permissible amendments of a bond article. Given the level of scrutiny, amendments to bond articles should be treated conservatively. Check with bond counsel if an amendment is anticipated."

https://www.nhmunicipal.org/town-cit...e-town-meeting

[John Mercier]

Calling the building a ''town asset'' doesn't change the fact that town property is not assessed for taxation purposes.

[longislander]

The value of the HUB does not come into play as town property is not in the total assessment, it is treated as a non-profit devoid of property taxes.

I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.

The bond would not include the operating cost... just the build cost.
.36/1000 x 4,892,023,118 = 1,761,128.32

The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110

[phoenix]

or a liability depending on your prospective. Also, the estimate is not binding, and the cost could be higher if approved and goes out to bid as everything is going up including interest rates

[longislander]

Agree with phoenix.

Also,

Did this one more thing before heading out:

https://www.bankrate.com/mortgages/a...on-calculator/

Loan amount: $14,243,415
Loan term: 10 Years
Rate: 4%
Loan start date: Dec 2022 (just for this exercise not 2023)


Results I got:

Monthly payment: $144,208
Total Interest paid: $3,061,503
Total cost of loan paid: $17,304,918
Payoff date: Dec.2032

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by longislander

I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.



The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110

Estimated annual bond premium (principal and interest) based on term and rate using a mortgage calculation divided by the total property valuation declared in a cost per thousand of valuation. $14.5M over 10 years at around 4% is about .36 per thousand.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by longislander

I agree. I misunderstood your comment. The Hub will become a town asset, but town assets are not taxed.
The town will still need to pay for the building/bond, however through, taxation.

What is the relevance of the $.36/$1000 assessment relative to the $14,512,847 bond, if a bond? Where did the $.36/$1000 come from.



The $4,892,023,118 is total valuation. The total Tax effort is $23,355,110

They could play with the term to keep the annualized cost in-line corresponding to the estimate of .36 per thousand.

A project that is design/build in general already has the contractor so it doesn't go to bid. That is the bid; and the price is locked.

[longislander]

Just heading out the door to Concord but should be back for the 4:00 PM meeting.

Annualized cost should be part of the annual budget, as in a contractual, monetary town responsibility.

Valuation sets the tax rate, but the town budget is part of the tax effort, I believe. Town Tax effort divided by Town Valuation = Town tax rate.

I suspect a "build contractor" RFQ would go out in the spring/summer if the town approves the warrant article. The one of two "cost contractors" Conestco (the other did not meet requirements set) does not appear "big" enough to get the job done.

I would agree price is locked when the town and contractor have signed a contract.

[John Mercier]

It does become part of the annual budget.
But because it is a bond premium... it isn't open to being adjusted.

I am not sure how they would word an open bonding amount.

Maybe bond up to... but not really sure.

Most often the design/build locks the number and then the amount is bonded at the next town budget vote or denied.
That process is then either dropped or repeated again for the next cycle until the bond warrant passes.

[phoenix]

the meaning of the vote was that the selectmen don't approve. Yes it will be presented as an article i assume by petition.

[longislander]

Statutorily, April 4th is deadline for the petition, that only requires 25 registered voters.

[winni83]

Well this is not unexpected but nevertheless not good news. Borrin is running for the Moultonborough Selectboard. There are two seats up for grabs. Kevin Quinlan’s and Jim Gray’s. I have heard that Kevin is going to run and that Jim Gray may not run.

[longislander]

I have heard that Kevin is going to run and that Jim Gray may not run.

I believe that is correct.

Chuck McGee will be running again.

[phoenix]

maybe he would recluse himself ha ha ha

[Cal-to-NH]

Interesting news on the upcoming Selectman election! Thanks for that. Also, thanks for the presentation! Borrin, unfortunately, was not a great choice by the selectmen to be the HUB guy. At the meeting I went to early in the process, he came-off as so unlikable. He certainly thinks a lot about himself, however. He's not a bad guy, just all ego.
Although I can swim and played water polo as a kid, I was never good enough to make either the swim team or water polo team at my very large high school. In college I was a swim official and officiated some high school swim meets, as the cash was good. I say all this because I told Borrin 2 years ago that a regulation pool for both water polo and swim meets is a 25 yard pool with 6 lanes. A 5 lane pool will never be used for either purpose. I see in the presentation they are still saying that revenue could be made by competitions. He's right that the money from these things is quite good, but he's selling a "bill-of-goods" to people who don't know better. It may be a small thing, but the killer for me is that he knows it's not true, and so you know what that makes him.... For me, at least, it makes me wonder what else is - shall we say - embellished...

[winni83]

Here is the Warrant Article filed yesterday with the Town by the Taj Mahal group. It is up by $400,000 over their earlier version.

[phoenix]

Maybe if they lose this time they will quit

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by Cal-to-NH

Interesting news on the upcoming Selectman election! Thanks for that. Also, thanks for the presentation! Borrin, unfortunately, was not a great choice by the selectmen to be the HUB guy. At the meeting I went to early in the process, he came-off as so unlikable. He certainly thinks a lot about himself, however. He's not a bad guy, just all ego.
Although I can swim and played water polo as a kid, I was never good enough to make either the swim team or water polo team at my very large high school. In college I was a swim official and officiated some high school swim meets, as the cash was good. I say all this because I told Borrin 2 years ago that a regulation pool for both water polo and swim meets is a 25 yard pool with 6 lanes. A 5 lane pool will never be used for either purpose. I see in the presentation they are still saying that revenue could be made by competitions. He's right that the money from these things is quite good, but he's selling a "bill-of-goods" to people who don't know better. It may be a small thing, but the killer for me is that he knows it's not true, and so you know what that makes him.... For me, at least, it makes me wonder what else is - shall we say - embellished...

It would be most helpful to our cause if you would write a letter to the editor of the Meredith News and the Laconia Daily sun, citing the information in your post. So many Moultonborough residents get their news from these papers, and we must get everything we can to convince voters to nix this insane project. I am not at all surprised that the instigators have been suppressing the true facts and figures….it’s really a disgrace. Anyhow, if you could manage that, and we all get everyone with financial interest in this to come to the meeting on May 11 at 6.
Thanks.
Sue

[tummyman]

BOS voted tonight 2...Yes, 3.... NO for the Petitioned Warrant article on the HUB.

[phoenix]

Hopefully the finance committee does the same

[tummyman]

Finance Committee is advisory only and their opinion on this is not based on ANY review of information. In my opinion, not important at all.

[Wishbone]

The Letter quotes the proposed warrant article -

“The space is designed for group meetings, private functions such as weddings, birthday parties, bridal or baby showers, business lunches/dinners and gatherings of all sizes, making it Moultonborough’s best location for functions.”

Should the town be competing with tax paying private businesses in town by doing weddings? Have we looked into the demand for such events? Also, would all activities be closed on days that weddings/events are going on? Lastly, in the unique labor market, would The Hub be able to staff its facilities?

If the people proposing this really think this is viable, why don't they build a facility and run it themselves?

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by Cal-to-NH

Also, thanks for the presentation! - embellished...

SB2 would allow ALL interested voters to vote . . . at their leisure . . . on voting day.

Not some long out drawn out meeting where every nutcase can take up time babbling about this or that.

[longislander]

SB2 Offical Ballot Referenda vs. Traditional Meeting
Pros and Cons

FOR SB2:

SB2: A Month To Research Warrant Article Discussions Before Voting. Traditional Requires Immediate Vote, Then and There.

SB2: All Warrant Articles Are Voted On Tuesday Ballot. All Day Voting. In And Out. Not Hours Waiting to Finish Voting, and Bored.

SB2: Absentee Ballots Would Now Include All Warrant Articles. Snowbirds, Military, and Other Absentees Can Vote On All Warrant Articles.

SB2: All Voting Is Secret, In Curtained Voting Booth. Traditional Hand Or Card Votes, Intimidate Some Voters.

SB2 No, Voter "Reconsideration" Shenanigans.

AGAINST SB2:

Fewer Attendees At SB2 Deliberative Session
There Should Be! Many Folks Already Know How They Will Vote.

Traditional Meeting Allows For More of a Social Event. No, It Doesn't. SB2 Deliberative Session Can Also Be a Social Event, Same as Traditional.

SB2 Does Not Allow Debate of Warrant Articles. Not true! Yes, It Does, At The Deliberative Session. Same As Traditional.

SB2 Does Not Allow Amendments to Warrant Articles. Not true! Yes, It Does, At The Deliberative Session. Same As Traditional.

SB2 Jeopardizes The Budget. Traditional Town Meeting Imperils The Budget More. SB2 Also Has a Default Budget.

[fatlazyless]

Suggest you take a look at www.thehubmoultonborough.com to see it's a community center that includes a 25-meter indoor swim pool, a multi-purpose gym large enough for two or three pickleball courts, a game room with ping-pong, pool, and table hockey, an adult social room, a large function hall and a kitchen.

Teaching swimming to very young children, school age children, and adults as well as water exercise classes would be happening all year 'round.

While nearby Lake Winnipesaukee and the Moultonborough Town Beach are a beautiful scenic lake location, the big lake water temps is 70-76 degrees warm, only from June 15 to September 15. For the the other nine months, Sept 15 to June 15, the big lake is way too cold for swimming and in-the-water activity.

The new Moultonborough Hub will have a 25-meter warm water indoor pool, good for swim lessons, and water exercise classes like Splash 'n Burn lead by an instructor all twelve months of the year.

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Suggest you take a look at www.thehubmoultonborough.com to see it's a community center that includes a 25-meter indoor swim pool, a multi-purpose gym large enough for two or three pickleball courts, a game room with ping-pong, pool, and table hockey, an adult social room, a large function hall and a kitchen.

Teaching swimming to very young children, school age children, and adults as well as water exercise classes would be happening all year 'round.

While nearby Lake Winnipesaukee and the Moultonborough Town Beach are a beautiful scenic lake location, the big lake water temps is 70-76 degrees warm, only from June 15 to September 15. For the the other nine months, Sept 15 to June 15, the big lake is way too cold for swimming and in-the-water activity.

The new Moultonborough Hub will have a 25-meter warm water indoor pool, good for swim lessons, and water exercise classes like Splash 'n Burn lead by an instructor all twelve months of the year.

Just to be clear on the two or three pickleball courts in the multi-purpose gym, you will be very pleased to know it will be large enough for THREE indoor pickleball courts!

[phoenix]

i guess unless you can get someone else to pay for it

[tummyman]

They already are...over 70% of taxes come from lakefront properties and the majority cannot vote. So the 'residents" vote for a want and they pass the bill on to those who have no say.

[John Mercier]

So change residency.

[lakesregionguy]

If you own property and pay taxes in the Town you should be able to vote on how that money is spent. This Town's mentality is to spend other people's money. This is not the time, and perhaps never, to consider a project of this magnitude for a town of the size of Moultonboro regardless of who is paying for it. The HUB proponents have a lot of nerve to continue to put the Town through this every year. Enough already !

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Originally Posted by lakesregionguy

If you own property and pay taxes in the Town you should be able to vote on how that money is spent. This Town's mentality is to spend other people's money. This is not the time, and perhaps never, to consider a project of this magnitude for a town of the size of Moultonboro regardless of who is paying for it. The HUB proponents have a lot of nerve to continue to put the Town through this every year. Enough already !

I agree with you…..and my happy ending for this, though unrealistic and improbable, would be that all the nonresident lakefront property owners banded together and declared their Moultonborough property their primary residence, and voted down the HUB! It’s a fantasy, but a truly delicious one.

[John Mercier]

Just voting it down one year doesn't stop it.
As long as enough registered voting residents sign the petition, it would be on for the next town meeting.

[tis]

I find it interesting that Tuftonboro sent out a survey asking if people would like a pool in town. One of the options was to have a pool with other towns. One of my fears is that these towns are going to tax people right out of their homes. Or maybe you're right, they think the lake people will pay for all their toys.

[LIforrelaxin]

So I continue to loosely follow this.... While I think the idea is good an sound, in theory, as someone has pointed out some of the facts are misleading, and some of the money will be a waste.

The biggest waste I see is on the "competition pool".... My wife is a swim coach, 5 lane pools are not at all desirable for any purpose other then training.
They aren't big enough for water polo and even dual meets between high schools find them hard to utilize.... If the idea is for the pool to be a competition pool capable of handing even high school dual meets it needs to have a minimum of 6 lanes and preferable 8... To be able to hold bigger meets such as state meets or district level meets 8 will just barely cover it, and ideal the pool should be 10 lanes wide, with an addition warm up / cool down pool......

If Moultonborough wants to build a decent facility they should do the research and make sure they have the correct parameters.. a 5 lane pool is a joke
Correctly built, I believe they could make a very usable facility, that could be used to generate some level of income for the town.... But what I see is simply a rec. center that will benefit the year round residents at some level, but likely will not even meet their needs in some aspects....

[DickR]

One big problem I have with the proposal is how it has the town so divided between proponents and opponents, with the high and uncertain cost having the potential to impose a significant tax burden on many. We ought to keep in mind that when it comes to legislative matters at the local, state, or federal level, having the votes to enact something doesn't necessarily mean that we ought to. The impact of passing something on a great segment of voters must be considered. We can't always have what we'd like.

[phoenix]

Nice to see a lot of “ scrub the hub signs” around town

[phoenix]

see Borin lost

[winni83]

While Borrin lost, Tolman's win is being viewed by the HUB proponents as a win for them on the theory that both Tolman and Borin are of one mind with respect to the HUB. That is probably true, as evidenced by the post on Borrin's Facebook page updating his profile picture, see attached. Colby and Beadle are rabid HUB supporters and Crawford is always a question, so even if Crawford remains opposed to the HUB it looks like it will be 3 to 2 in favor of the HUB on the Selectboard. I believe that Quinlan will reamain opposed. Note Borrin's congratulatory note to Tolman, with no mention of Kevin Quinlan.

Mark Borrin _ Facebook.pdf

[John Mercier]

Selectboard doesn't matter on the issue.
They have more than enough registered signatures to keep putting the issue up for a vote.

So the voters overall attitude toward the proposal is what will be the deciding factor each time.

[longislander]

Selectboard doesn't matter on the issue.

Correct.

The voters that are there, and vote, will determine outcome. Need at least 60% (3/5ths) of ballots cast of the secret ballots to prevail.

Only takes 25 registered voters to petition and place on the town meeting warrant for a vote.

[Wishbone]

From looking at the documentation on the Hub, it will be a facility that will be paid out of my taxes, yet will require me to pay more to use it. It also looks like it will add 400 to 500k a year in additional taxes to be collected to make up for the loss the facility will generate.

If this is such a good idea, how about the people who put in on the ballot, use their own money to bring a business like this to Moultonborough.

Clermont has a similar facility that loses several hundred thousand each year that must be made up by the tax payers.

[tummyman]

The Pool / Aquatics Center needs to go. Never was part of what town set money aside for a study in 2021. It is the main driver of long term costs and what is sinking Claremont and Dover already.

If this is such a need...I do not agree that it is....then let the HUB gang fund raise for it, get a 99 year lease of land from the town, build and then operate it. People need to wake up and not be snowed by a few !

[Descant]

Some years ago, we had a commercial "club", pool, gym, indoor tennis, track, weights, etc plus meeting rooms, and a night club area, drinks, music, dancing. It lasted a couple of years and failed. The YMCA was able to take it over at a huge discount. The fitness stuff is still operating, the nightclub is now an after school childcare facility. It requires a large population base to work, maybe 100,000(?) from 4 cities/towns. No tax support except for whatever they get as a non-profit.
2 points:
1. You need to buy something at bankruptcy prices
2. You need a large, year-round, population base.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by tummyman

The Pool / Aquatics Center needs to go. Never was part of what town set money aside for a study in 2021. It is the main driver of long term costs and what is sinking Claremont and Dover already.

If this is such a need...I do not agree that it is....then let the HUB gang fund raise for it, get a 99 year lease of land from the town, build and then operate it. People need to wake up and not be snowed by a few !

The pool/aquatics center is also the irony underlying the whole thing--the town is already blessed with one of the country's greatest aquatic centers

[ITD]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

The pool/aquatics center is also the irony underlying the whole thing--the town is already blessed with one of the country's greatest aquatic centers

Irony until you consider the greatest aquatic center is only above 60 degrees about half the year.


I was leaning against the hub for a while, but I'm slowly leaning toward it. My biggest reservation about it is that there are 10 other pork type expenditures waiting for the up vote on this to bring them to town meeting and say this got through, now it's our turn.

Tough question.

[phoenix]

its a lot of money and operating cost based on like centers is understated

[Sue Doe-Nym]

Tonight at 6. Go! There are no valid excuses! If you care about excess spending, do not stay at home watching tv! We need your vote! No to HUB!