Cost of fuel...

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

It’s about time it’s priced what it should be.

I don’t care if it’s $10/gallon personally.
I’m 99% Solar for all energy needs.

But I do care how much it impacts the economy.
And care about families that simply can’t afford it.

Such a sudden change is never good.
Pleasure Boats are the last problem.

I had wished they taxed the hell out of gas while it was cheap to help fund desperately needed road / bridge reconstruction. And alternative fuels so that we are less dependent on oil.

Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

Who are they - and where are they?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

Standard oil industry misinformation. Every reputable study shows huge environmental benefits to both solar and EVs, even after taking these points into account.

A related issue that does not require scientific analysis--the economic benefits to homes and businesses with solar panels were huge even before the price run up. Now they are massive.

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Standard oil industry misinformation. Every reputable study shows huge environmental benefits to both solar and EVs, even after taking these points into account.

A related issue that does not require scientific analysis--the economic benefits to homes and businesses with solar panels were huge even before the price run up. Now they are massive.

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof

This has nothing to do with oil.... you may find this story rather interesting.

My electric bill right now is running me about $25.00 per month here in Idaho. Why so cheap? Hydroelectric power and a lot of it. What could be more green than that? Well the environmentalists out here want to remove the dams and return the rivers to their "natural state" which they have no coherent plan to replace the power generated from them which will drive those costs skywards, and how much sense does it make to replace something that is in place now, working awesome and is already renewable?

The net result of this beyond the power void it creates? Lack of flood control, inability to guarantee irrigation water to all the ag producers, taking away the transportation lanes for many products that use more efficiently these riverways for transporting goods and dumping them where? Rail lines or OTR trucking? Hmm....

Makes zero sense, but to the greenies they want what they want to hell with anyone else or the economic suicide that it takes to get there.

I am NOT anti alternative energy, I really think it will get there, but it takes time, this is an emerging technology so let it emerge. In the mean time coherent and responsible energy needs to be readily available to all at a reasonable cost to consumers. We have the ability to be self sufficient, and with that independent on the world stage, that translates into an ability to handle events such as what is going on today differently. This is not a provocative way of thinking - it is a sane and sensible thing to do. Bankrupting the country and funding outlaw states that wreak havoc around the world does not.

[garysanfran]

Americans can be impatient and want change immediately. A drastic change in energy should be evolutionary, not revolutionary. Otherwise you end up with expensive technology obsolete in a very short time.

If nuclear is not a part of the discussion, it's not going to be a serious discussion.

[garysanfran]

I found this quite educational...I know it's an ad...

https://news.energysage.com/solar-pa...ost-over-time/

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

This has nothing to do with oil.... you may find this story rather interesting.

My electric bill right now is running me about $25.00 per month here in Idaho. Why so cheap? Hydroelectric power and a lot of it. What could be more green than that? Well the environmentalists out here want to remove the dams and return the rivers to their "natural state" which they have no coherent plan to replace the power generated from them which will drive those costs skywards, and how much sense does it make to replace something that is in place now, working awesome and is already renewable?

The net result of this beyond the power void it creates? Lack of flood control, inability to guarantee irrigation water to all the ag producers, taking away the transportation lanes for many products that use more efficiently these riverways for transporting goods and dumping them where? Rail lines or OTR trucking? Hmm....

Makes zero sense, but to the greenies they want what they want to hell with anyone else or the economic suicide that it takes to get there.

I am NOT anti alternative energy, I really think it will get there, but it takes time, this is an emerging technology so let it emerge. In the mean time coherent and responsible energy needs to be readily available to all at a reasonable cost to consumers. We have the ability to be self sufficient, and with that independent on the world stage, that translates into an ability to handle events such as what is going on today differently. This is not a provocative way of thinking - it is a sane and sensible thing to do. Bankrupting the country and funding outlaw states that wreak havoc around the world does not.

I think we agree!

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I think we agree!

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you

I totally agree too.

Almost anything we do will cause some harm.

It really bothered me how so many were against more windmills.
Stupid stupid arguments from really smart people.

Yes, they will kill some birds. Yes, you will see them. Yes there will be some impact installing them. But they are a net win vs the alternatives.

We may never get rid of oil. But that’s ok.
But we can try to rebalance sources so we use a little of each.
Too much of anyone causes the most harm.

Wasn’t it hydro power that Canada wanted to send down our way that 95% NH said no too. I don’t even care if it passed through NH. If MA burns less oil, that’s good for NH too.

Like someone mentioned. Why should all the harm happen in China and NH get off with little or no impact? We all have to share some burden for energy.

Looking at Windmills and allowing a power line through was a pretty small penalty compared to sacrifices other states make. Coal states, fracking states, oil states, mining states.

Would I prefer not have solar panels on my pretty new house. Sure. But it’s worth it and I’ll make it work with the least visual impact. And for the record Solar might not work out in NH for me. I’m not gonna cut a bunch of trees for it. Maybe I’ll put up a wind mill. That would go over big

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

I think we agree!

I agree 100% that climate change has made disabling hydropower a really bad thing to do, and that we should be increasing hydropower. And that we need a sane coherent system. And that funding bastards like Putin and MBS in Saudi Arabia is terrible in several different ways.

Our only difference may be that I'm more eager to get off oil--in part due to climate change, in part due to geopolitical issues. But if your using hydro today, I salute you

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

[NH.Solar]

First a few points of clarification;
1. When the NH PUC changed the rules on net metering four years ago the credits issued for excess solar production exported back into the grid went from dollar for dollar to ~75 cents on the dollar on the credit side. The individual utilities, not the State, were allowed to retain the 25% net metering discount. At the same time the PUC decreed that the utilities in turn would have to change their crediting from kWh to a monetary basis. Overall this seems to me a very equitable plan, the utilites get to keep 25% on the power exported into their grid, and the consumer can now use the credits to offset the fixed net metering costs that formerly would have always produced a billing. This was especially beneficial to the NHEC customers because the credits can now be used against their stiff $31 meter (membership) fee. I have a modest 8.2 kW roof mounted solar array, but from April until usually January don't see a billing at all ...very satisfying.

2. Leasing solar is only good for the solar installer! Generally the programs only reward you with a fixed low monthly utility rate in exchange for mounting an array on your property. If the general utility rates should ever go down you may find yourself locked into a contract rate that is higher than the public utility rate and upside down. This is fairly unlikely, but rates do occasionally decline. The Co-op will sometimes do this when they hike their fixed memebership fee and present it as a marketing advantage when in fact for most clients the higher meter fee offsets any temporary decline in the kWh rate. By the way don't take this as a criticism of the Co-op, they are only doing what's neccesary to accomodate their ever increasing costs while presenting it to their clients as favorably as possible.
Second, if you have a leased solar array on your roof that asset is not yours, and it is in fact a huge deteriment to your property. If you ever want to sell, the contract has to be assumed by the new buyer, or you need to pay the cost to have the array removed and the roof made weatherproof again.
3. The solar installer gets to keep the 26% ITC ....nuff said.

As far as affordability for the general public goes, it shouldn't be a problem at all as long as you have maintained your credit scores. We generally refer our clients to Mascoma Bank for financing their renewable energy projects. Their program is excellent, they are local, and the service top notch. The end result for the potential solar buyer is that their monthly outlay to finance their solar array is the same or maybe even less that their current monthly utility bill ...but at the end of their financing contract they own the solar array producing their power and from that point forward that portion of their electricity is coming to them for free. In addition, should they wish to sell their home in the near future the asset value of the array is part of the value of the home they are selling. Sure there will still be some buyers that shy away from a solar array, but not that many.

The cost of EV's... I bought a pristine loaded Chevy Volt coming in off of a lease two years ago and it has been a wonderful experience! The car had 23K miles on it when I took possession and Colonial Chevy in Mass delivered it to my New Hampton home for just $23k, with an extended warranty covering it to 50k miles! I have nearly that on it already and will be trading it soon for another newer lease end low mileage Volt. The car is a delight to drive, has all of the goodies I want, and easily saves me $250 a month in fuel alone over the cost of driving my Duramax. Whenever possible I try to charge it midday so that my excess solar goes into the Volt at 100% of value, rather than at night when that same solar energy would have been subjected to the 25% net metering discount. I can leave my New Hampton home and rive up to Cannon and back and it only costs me a 1/4 gallon of gas (the Volt has a backup onboard generator), and if I wantedto go to the Cape, I'll be somewhere across the Mass border before the generator even starts purring in the background. Best part is, even when I'm running on the generator the car still is getting 40+ mpg and has the scoot of an EV.
I do have money down on both the new Ford Lightning and a Chevy Silverado EV and will take whichever I can first get my hands on. I'd prefer the Ford because it is bedirectional and can actually feed power back into my home when the grid is down, but would prefer the Chevy because they say it will be offered as a 2500 and then I could lose my trusty but expensive to run Duramax.

Finally, dams and windmills. I am part owner of a dam on a 53 acre pond and if there were a power line close enough to hook 3 phase into it would be a perfect sistuation ...but there isn't. This means that myself and my neighbor are fully responsible for the maintenance and liabilty of this dam. It is worth it because ofthe pristine and very private nature of our shared pond, but I wouldn't recommend it for most. We have to get it inspected by the DES every four years and should they ever find a deficiency we are on the hook for it.
I can also see the Rumney windmills from my hilltop home site and while I like what I see right now, I really don't want to see any more.

It is my opinion that the best solution in everyway for our need for energy, both locally and on the grand scale, is efficiency improvements and localized solar with energy storage. The batteries are the key and the progress since Elon Musk came alone and said to the world, "yes we can", has been astonishing. I do takethe time to contact out public reps every now and again and plead the case for moving the State and Federal incentives off solar generation and into energy storage, but so far it has been a case of shouting into the wind. Maybe someday...

[Dblblkdiam]

Just my 2 cents on the subject for anyone interested in solar & heat pumps

My 3,600 sq ft home has leased solar panels. I am locked into a price per kWh generated which as of right now is better than mkt. Might not always be the case, but kept the install cost ~18K in my pocket.
I generate more power than I consume so i generate credits on my electric account through net metering.

My current heat is oil
I recently installed entire home heat pumps and integrated controls which creates a hybrid system. Heat pumps work until around 20 degrees, then the oil kicks in to support in extreme temperatures. Oil consumption has materially gone down.
My solar credits cover the costs to operate the heat pumps & A/C.
When pricing out the replacement of my old central A/C, to add the heat pump functionality was around $7K. I received $7K+ rebate from MassSave to convert so basically the heat pump "option" was free.
MassSave also let me finance the difference in cost for 7 years at zero percent interest. Just another perk of going green or more efficient.

[garysanfran]

So long as China is the largest supplier of lithium, nations that depend on electric cars will become more beholden to China.

I believe China is also the largest producer of solar panels.

Plus our medical supplies and almost every trinket you buy in the "kitchen wares" section of any market.

Becoming more dependent on China is not my idea of independence.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by garysanfran

So long as China is the largest supplier of lithium, nations that depend on electric cars will become more beholden to China.

I believe China is also the largest producer of solar panels.

Plus our medical supplies and almost every trinket you buy in the "kitchen wares" section of any market.

Becoming more dependent on China is not my idea of independence.

Really? According to this it’s Australia and Chile that produces most Lithium.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ut-of-lithium/

[NH.Solar]

Ir used to be the most of the solar modules installed in the USA were from China, but no more. The Trump administration instituted a stiff tariff on all solar modules from China to stop market flooding and as a consequence most panels installed now are either domestically made or from Indonesia. Naturally I disagreed with Trump's decision when it was first announced, but in the long run it proved to be quite a bonus. The only Chinese modules currently exempt from some reason from the tariff are bifacials ..which we use a lot of ;-) LG used to be our go-to, but they have recently announced that they are abandoning the modules industry to focus on their home batteries.
Lithium does look like it could become more and more valuable as time goes by, and for this reason I have recently bought stock in one US LI recycling company and am waiting for the IPO on the other. Returns are only ok on the one I'm invested in but my fingers are crossed. The other already has a huge stock pile of old EV batteries, has been partially funded by both Ford, Volvo, and Tesla, and is staffed by a lot of former Tesla employees ...hmmm

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But I’d care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. It’s also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeep’s I’ve had. Lot’s people can’t afford those either but I don’t see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people can’t afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You don’t have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I don’t know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I don’t know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.

[MAXUM]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Not saying everyone should have an EV.

But I’d care to understand your reliability concern.

My 2.5 year old Model X has yet to have any service. And for many service tasks they come to me !!! It never sees gas stations (except to fill the gas can for the lawn mower) and I rarely even need to stop for a charge. And I commute between MA and NH 120 miles away. It’s also an absolute beast in the snow. And believe me, I need a good snow machine. Better than the top end Jeep’s I’ve had. Lot’s people can’t afford those either but I don’t see negativity towards them. Loaded Pickups are now pushing $60-$70k.

Any one can have Solar (that has a place to put it). Not anyone can afford full purchase with no loan. Lots of people can’t afford to pay cash for their cars but they still buy new cars. There are plans for folks without excess cash if you bother to look.

There are also co-ops you can join. You don’t have to necessarily push power to the grid from your roof. But I don’t know that much about them.

Now the days of No out of pocket for Solar may be dwindling or less attractive. I don’t know todays details. But a few years back it was a bargain.

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

[granitebox]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

Its always an issue to me when someone references "I have a friend" or "I know a guy" or "I read that...."

I have a model 3, about 20,000 miles on it with no issues. Perhaps you really do know people who have nothing but problems but that's not representative of the car or the EV industry.

Consumer Reports - an unbiased review IMO rates the 2022 Tesla Model 3 as a recommended car - no small feat.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Well to start, forking out over 6 figures for a model X I would hope the darn thing is reliable.... I can't speak to them directly but know 4 people who have or had model 3's one guy two of them. They were riddled with problems, everything from major problems to stupid things a car that costs as much as they do should not have.

Lots of people LEASE not buy new cars. This is also why so many, even those that make a decent salary are walking financial disasters. Leasing is a complete rip off. The average joe American lives on a payment plan for everything and owns little to nothing. Any plan for people without "excess cash" is not free either, add in all the finance and interest charges that just adds to the lack of affordability or cost benefit.

Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. That’s it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. I’m also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason I’m trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesn’t last long and can leave you stranded and doesn’t give much warning. And if it dies it’s not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/te...-win-2020/amp/

I don’t care for leases either. And don’t like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I can’t stand the thought of not actually owning my car. I’ve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that you’re better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I don’t buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesn’t.

[Winnisquamer]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Price does not imply quality. I had a Model 3 as well. Only problem it had was a stress crack in the rear window. That’s it. Friend bought a Model 3 before me and just traded it for a Model Y. He had 50K miles and never saw service either. They gave him almost full price back in trade. I’m also getting almost full price back on my X in trade (cost almost nothing to own or run for 2.5 years). It was only due to luck due to shortages, increase in prices etc. Only reason I’m trading is because I can get back what I paid. Same for my friend and true fir many ICE cars as well.

I agree, Model 3 has had some issues (all Teslas have some issues). Yet Tesla is still #1 in customer satisfaction. I bet most of your friends still enjoy the car even after the frustration of the failures. A common failure is the 12V battery doesn’t last long and can leave you stranded and doesn’t give much warning. And if it dies it’s not easy to deal with. If you get the warnings, any warnings IMMEDIATELY get it to service.

https://insideevs.com/news/486130/te...-win-2020/amp/

I don’t care for leases either. And don’t like loans on cars as well. But most people I know that do leases are smart with their money. I can’t stand the thought of not actually owning my car. I’ve never even rented a living space either.

Even though a lot of folks argue that you’re better off investing the money and taking a loan vs paying for it in cash I don’t buy it that argument. Paying by cash forces you to stay within your means. But it depends on where you are in your life. When young it makes sense. When your older it doesn’t.

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

[Garcia]

Originally Posted by Winnisquamer

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by Garcia

I leased once and it was a mistake. I realize it makes sense for some but I don't see myself ever doing it again. I usually buy late model used cars and go to the dealer with financing in place. After settling on a price, if the dealer can offer better financing I'll take it.

Right now, I am thinking of buying new. What I can get for my trade is pretty high and from the bit of looking I have done, I can get a better deal on a new car than I can get on a used one.

As to gas prices, both at home and at the lake i don't see price changing usage much. Where i live public transportation and carpooling isn't an option. Getting to and from camp requires a boat ride. I don't go on vacations other than to camp (and recognize how fortunate I am to be able to have the place) so will fish, do water sports, or simply enjoy the water regardless of gas prices. I am thankful I will be able to do so.

My guess is that a big increase in gas prices will keep some people who trailer and sped the day on the boat away, but as was mentioned in an earlier post, those who can afford a boat are probably less impacted by rising gas prices than others. Not that it might not be painful, but boat owners are probably not choosing between gas and food.

Not between gas and food... more often between gas and other expenditures/savings. We expect that they will spend more time in the coves and at the sandbars at anchor, and will avoid spending money in other ways.

The increase in gasoline prices means I have less earned income to invest.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Winnisquamer

I’ve done both, leased and bought. Of the cars I leased I benefited from, ended up buying out the leases and sold them for more I expected it to be a literal 3 year rental but hey I got lucky… my Tesla I purchased and could sell it today for 6k more than I got it for, love it, absolutely love it. I come from a family of mechanics so gas cars were the thing for us, EV? No way we use to say. once I became an engineer Tesla caught my eye as an employer and then a consumer. After owning it for a year unless I have to, I’d never buy a gas car again except for a tow vehicle etc where EV is just not there yet.. I personally won’t spend cash when rates are 1.8%. Over 3 I’ll drop the cash, I can easily tie up my 60k and earn more than 1.8% for an auto loan. Prior to my Tesla my last 3 cars were 0% financing. Tell me how it’s dumb to finance free money?

Right. I’ve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought I’d do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). It’s so completely different. It’s like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for “cars” with no buyers remorse.

[VitaBene]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

Right. I’ve done 0% loans before for free money too. I never thought I’d do another mortgage. I have two homes paid off since 2008. But I decided to refinance our MA home and sell it once the NH house is built. I got 2% fixed 15 year. Almost free money.

Yeah, I agree on the Teslas. I liked nice safe quiet cars before the Teslas. I was big on upgrades with new crash avoidance features. But driving was more of a chore than a pleasure. Once I got the Tesla I make excuses to drive it (even 3 years later). It’s so completely different. It’s like going from a flip phone that only makes calls to a smart phone that makes calls and many other things. And why I more than doubled my budget for “cars” with no buyers remorse.

I cant make one work here yet. We just sold an 2018 Tesla X 75D (business partner) for more than we paid 2 years later. Great car and a blast to drive but it batteries were not the new extra range and getting older. 20K to upgrade he said.

[Juiced06GTO]

All this banter over EV's and solar.....Can you guys all just keep an eye out for when the lightly used tirtoons w/250-300hp outboards start hitting the market and give me a heads up? I was thinking about dumping the funship and going toon anyhow, so maybe the gas prices will force a market flood....

[RUGMAN]

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

[LakeDad]

Originally Posted by RUGMAN

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

This information is widely available. It varies and the numbers are different for everyone, but sometimes, it can make sense.

It will only make more sense as technology advances and fuel costs rise.

However, most people aren’t interested in doing the math (short and long term), they just find it easier to either be for or against EV with no mathematical reason.

Some are pretentious and others are stubborn.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by RUGMAN

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

$2,000 or maybe less, depending on your existing electric situation (you need a 220 line). Of course, this money is quickly returned in the form of lower cost/mile, and the charger lasts forever. The last time I did the math, electricity for an EV was about 30% of the price of gas, on an apples to apples basis. Numbers are probably more favorable for an EV today

[John Mercier]

Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Wouldn't that be based on how many miles you drive a year and the fuel mileage your comparing too?

Yes--definitely. A person should compare a Tesla S to a high powered full size sedan, or the upcoming Ford Lightning to the F-150. Also depends on your personal cost of electricity and gasoline. But in most any case, I think you're going to get the cost of the charger back long before you sell the car

[John Mercier]

Last auto I drove 12 years... just under 78,000 miles. Combined efficiency was around 35 mpg on an annualized basis; purchased for $10,800.

Current auto... six and a half years old... just under 45,000 miles, combined efficiency is around 40 (got as low as 37 mpg this winter with defrosting, but will hit 44 mpg during the summer)... purchased for $11,800.

I don't think the math quite works for me.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by RUGMAN

All this talk about EV's, what is the additional cost to install a charging station at your house.

It’s a pretty wide range depending on what you want and what you have.

One house I had an existing 30A 240V heater in the garage, that I rarely used.
So I added an A/B switch and a 2nd outlet. Probably $100.00 and did it myself.

Other house I installed a Tesla Wall Connector. By luck I was able to put it right after the main house disconnect and added a sub panel. Probably $700 and did it myself. Professional might have been $1500.00-ish

There is a pretty wide range on charge rates. Faster rates are more convenient but not always required. If you drive 300 miles a day you might want the max 60A (to charge at say 30 mph) and you might not have the capacity, so it could cost $1000’s to upgrade your service. Or you drive 20 miles a day, you can use a 120V outlet and charge at a rate of 3 miles per hour.

Remember you typically charge while you sleep. As long as it’s ready by morning is all you need. Depends on how much you drive.

Rates in MA are much higher and you DO NOT save a ton. I save because I have Solar. Rates are better in NH. So you would probably cut fuel by 50%. It’s a lot of money to save that much on fuel. More you drive the more you save.

Sone parts of the country only pay like 0.08 Kw/h. NH is 0.17 KWh/h. MA is 0.26 kW/h.

With price if gas going up savings could potentially go much higher. But who knows where everything will settle long term.

Gas savings is only one reason to go EV. How they drive, the tech, the safety are other reasons.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Hydro is a fantastic solution as it is cheap and reliable, also a very good and proven alternative means of generating power with zero nasty byproducts. It's amazing to see these massive, and I mean massive solar arrays that have been put in here, covering acres and acres but the amount of power they generate for the area they consume is a mere pittance to what is being provided by hydro at this time. While to many that "looks" good, to me it is a clear illustration that solar has a way to go. I do believe it'll get there. Frankly I'd rather see more effort being put into solar than wind. Windmills are an eye sore.

For those that can afford to be early adopters of alternative energy such as yourself that's great, but keep in mind the average household income in the US in 2021 was 80K per year, average individual income around 50K. Folks that fall into the averages can't afford to drop an annual salary on a Tesla in the driveway or 20K for solar panels (if they even own a house).

The difference between the two of us FlyingScot is that I am personally investing in different ways, I own investments in a number of EV manufacturers stock but you won't find an EV in my driveway. Why? Two simple answers, practicality and reliability. That said, I wouldn't be investing in it if I didn't think it has more than any time in the past a real chance of being the next major revolution in transportation and better for the environment. It just doesn't solve the immediate problems we have now. How much pain will the average American need to feel before they finally get that we need more domestic energy production? Time will tell, because right now the ruling class (party affiliation is irrelevant) doesn't seem to care about anything other than polling numbers, not what is best for this country. Some don't even know what day it is.

New wells already on the way. The price simply needed to be high enough for the drillers to feel that the long term investment in a well would not be lost by a simple blip in the price. It makes no sense to drill a well that has a $50/$60$80 per barrel expense in a market that is not willing to pay more than that expense.

But it takes time to hire and train personnel, and not exactly a productive supply chain for equipment and parts.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

As msw points out--if you have solar, heat pumps, and an EV, jumps in oil prices have virtually no impact on your wallet. I'm pretty sure that last year my net energy bill for a 3,000 sq ft house in Mass plus an electric car was a negative number--I received more in green energy credits than I paid for heat, lights, and gasoline. I'm an extreme case, but for anyone with a house in a sunny spot, solar panels are like an ATM on the roof

You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

You have a point.

Solar is pretty cheap though.

My ROI is 6 years. After that it’s PROFITABLE.
Yes, will make money.
Because I take some burden off the grid they pay me CASH to be self sustaining.

Solar is NOT free. You are prepaying it.
The rule of thumb is I’m paying about 0.08 KWh (as opposed to 0.26 KWh in MA).

You can lease and save some money long term.
But if you can afford it you do save money, quite a bit, long term.

Say your electric bill is $150 a month.
Multiple that out 20 years and it’s $36,000

Install Solar for $18K. Bill goes to $0.00

You save $18,000.00

Now that assume price doesn’t go up. The more it goes up the more you save.

Now you could invest that $36,000 too and keep paying for electricity.
I elected to go green-ER

EV’s are almost in reach of average consumer. Maybe 5 more years.
You don’t need to be rich to own one now. But you need to be comfortable.
If you can afford lake property I suspect you can afford both with no problem.

The number one reason I buy a Tesla is, it’s one of the safest vehicles on the planet to get me to and from NH. It’s the only way I can justify it because it’s not financially sound just yet. Even with Solar to power it.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by mswlogo

You have a point.

Solar is pretty cheap though.

My ROI is 6 years. After that it’s PROFITABLE.
Yes, will make money.
Because I take some burden off the grid they pay me CASH to be self sustaining.

Solar is NOT free. You are prepaying it.
The rule of thumb is I’m paying about 0.08 KWh (as opposed to 0.26 KWh in MA).

You can lease and save some money long term.
But if you can afford it you do save money, quite a bit, long term.

Say your electric bill is $150 a month.
Multiple that out 20 years and it’s $36,000

Install Solar for $18K. Bill goes to $0.00

You save $18,000.00

Now that assume price doesn’t go up. The more it goes up the more you save.

Now you could invest that $36,000 too and keep paying for electricity.
I elected to go green-ER

EV’s are almost in reach of average consumer. Maybe 5 more years.
You don’t need to be rich to own one now. But you need to be comfortable.
If you can afford lake property I suspect you can afford both with no problem.

The number one reason I buy a Tesla is, it’s one of the safest vehicles on the planet to get me to and from NH. It’s the only way I can justify it because it’s not financially sound just yet. Even with Solar to power it.

You realize that everything before and after "install solar at $18k" is worthless, right?

Something like 60% of Americans would be wiped out by a thousand dollar expense.

The increase in fuel, food, clothing, etc. costs are going to force hundreds of thousands from middle class to lower class status.

What percent of Americans can afford $18k?! And, if they'd have to take a loan out in order to do so, or not pay off other loans in the process, your ROI is directly affected.

True story: I was at Market Basket last week and the guy next to be bought two rolls of toilet paper even though the 4-pack was on sale for 25% off because he only had enough in his budget for two rolls. Extrapolate that to all areas of life, and therein lies the glitch.

THAT'S most of America.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Descant]

Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?

[John Mercier]

I think most of you are missing the point.
Large corporations do large projects... not an individual or a small group.
So other than rooftop solar, a backyard windmill, or some smaller system... it really is just a matter of historical precedent for large corporations.

Build a nuclear facility, go bankrupt. Attempt to build a pipeline in southern NH or reverse the flow in northern NH, face the backlash from both political parties. Try to build a transmission line, face the backlash from both political parties and lose millions.

So other than conservation... the only new sourcing will be those small projects.

Complaining may make some feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that we are using more than we can supply without relying on others that many, if not most, we don't like.

By the way... 4.20 at the pump.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by Descant

Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?

You do know what Net Metering is, right?
You don’t get it all back. NH takes 25%. MA takes 20%.
There are also connect fees etc.
But you can “pay” for it with kwh at least you can in MA
So you size your system to over produce enough to cover it.

So electric company can produce less energy when needed.
So both parties win.

Now if everyone did that, it would not work. But currently it does.
And we have a long ways to go.

Things will adjust accordingly.

In some states don’t offer NetMetering.
Then you invest in battery. There is no need to with NetMetering.

By the time the ROI gets bad the the panels will be much cheaper, more power and cheaper batteries.

26% tax credit ends this year BTW.
I plan to install another Solar system in NH this year to get the tax credit.

And I’ll probably get premium dollars for my house in MA when I show the buyer my electric bill and EV charger. So it won’t matter that I ever reached my ROI date.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Descant

Am I wrong? Currently, we pay to maintain the power grid, and the utility charges accordingly, billing for power used, delivery/grid and taxes and fees. At some point in time, the practice of buying solar back from individual residences will cease as the number of people paying full price drops below a certain level. Like Social Security, Medicare and other government programs, when there are more people taking benefits and too few paying the bill, the system will fail. Right now, the law requires the grid to buy your excess electricity like a government program. When that subsidy goes away, the ROI for solar will change dramatically, and may collapse. Ask your school board why all those flat roofs don't have solar panels. It's not economically feasible, and the voters don't want to pay huge upfront costs that have no conversion subsidy, right?

A couple of great points!

I agree the subsidies will taper off as more people get solar, so get in soon! I disagree the system will fail--the government will subsidize as easy landing--just as it is doing with the programs you cite.

School Boards and other nonprofits are not eligible for the big money part of the subsidies. A homeowner or business gets 26% of their solar investment back immediately in the form of a tax credit. (Businesses also get accelerated depreciation on top of that--87% in Year 1). Schools, local governments, and nonprofits such as YMCAs and churches do not pay taxes, so they do not get the credit. In effect, if a car dealer and a church both buy solar, the church is paying 50% more than the car dealer. Obviously this is messed up and makes it impossible for the School Boards. (The Build Back Better bill had a provision to fix this.)

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

A couple of great points!

I agree the subsidies will taper off as more people get solar, so get in soon! I disagree the system will fail--the government will subsidize as easy landing--just as it is doing with the programs you cite.

School Boards and other nonprofits are not eligible for the big money part of the subsidies. A homeowner or business gets 26% of their solar investment back immediately in the form of a tax credit. (Businesses also get accelerated depreciation on top of that--87% in Year 1). Schools, local governments, and nonprofits such as YMCAs and churches do not pay taxes, so they do not get the credit. In effect, if a car dealer and a church both buy solar, the church is paying 50% more than the car dealer. Obviously this is messed up and makes it impossible for the School Boards. (The Build Back Better bill had a provision to fix this.)

You make good points.

But I bet most installers would give churches and non profits a 26% better price.
I guarantee they mark up a good chunk because they know your getting 26% off. I bet prices drop proportionally when credits expire.
I don’t care that much though. It’s the small companies trying to get into new tech that needs it just as much as the consumer does.

I guarantee Tesla got most of the EV Tax credits. Once they expired prices dropped.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

You realize that everything before and after "install solar at $18k" is worthless, right?

Something like 60% of Americans would be wiped out by a thousand dollar expense.

The increase in fuel, food, clothing, etc. costs are going to force hundreds of thousands from middle class to lower class status.

What percent of Americans can afford $18k?! And, if they'd have to take a loan out in order to do so, or not pay off other loans in the process, your ROI is directly affected.

True story: I was at Market Basket last week and the guy next to be bought two rolls of toilet paper even though the 4-pack was on sale for 25% off because he only had enough in his budget for two rolls. Extrapolate that to all areas of life, and therein lies the glitch.

THAT'S most of America.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Like I said. If you can’t afford it. You lease. That’s what all the Solar calls are and guy in the Home Depot store is selling. Zero out of pocket. You will pay less for electricity and over time it will save you more. My friend did that and they put in a whole new service for free. If system doesn’t produce enough juice. Say in winter the roof is covered. They PAY him a check to give the electric company to pay his bill !!

Anyone that is considering Solar probably owns a home to put the Solar on.
I suspect most home owners could afford it.

It’s one of the best purchases I’ve ever made.

I have to laugh when anyone tries to argue against it. Just ridiculous. Like it’s a crime or something.

If you get a full Tesla setup (Solar and EV) it will time the charging of your car to when you are over producing on Solar. (Saves that 25% on NetMetering). Since the EV is fairly flexible of when it gets filled.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

You realize how much this stuff costs? What percent of America has the money to outlay for this?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I agree that the outlay is tough for many people:

On solar--pretty much any homeowner with a decent roof and credit rating can lease panels with no money down, and still get the majority of the savings from the systems.

On heat pumps--I would only expect a person to do this if they were doing a renovation, so they have cash.

On EVs--they are less expensive than they appear and getting cheaper all the time. Volkswagen, just for example, is now shipping their ID.4, price is about $35K after EV rebate. More coming soon from VW, Ford, Subaru, Nissan, in addition to higher cars.

[mswlogo]

Originally Posted by MAXUM

Yes just don't pay attention to the fact that those solar panels are made of highly toxic materials and the manufacturing process isn't exactly environmentally friendly, but that's OK it's done out of sight in China so who cares. And this stuff is being thrown in landfills that are NIMBY.

Just like the EVs, don't pay any attention to the extremely harmful strip mining (overseas so out of sight out of mind) that is occurring to get the raw materials to make batteries that too are highly toxic to manufacture and recycle\dispose of.

When we as a nation are committing economic suicide to virtue signal how "green" we are and to do so turning a blind eye to the environmental impacts that occur elsewhere to do it.... it's comically hypocritical. This is what happens when you don't have coherent grownups running things.

All forms of energy cost. The idea is to diversify. Nothing it perfect.
But it sure beats burning fossil fuel.

The panels will get recycled. There isn’t much infrastructure yet in the US because there isn’t much need. EU started Solar earlier and has recycling programs now.

https://www.cedgreentech.com/article...ls-be-recycled

You’re just trying to justify burning fossil fuel is better.

Your right that EV’s have a long ways to go to be carbon neutral too.

But I don’t mind helping fund energy diversity. EV’s will get better and better.
Each generation of Tesla batteries aims to use less heavy metals.

Your just trying to justify your gas burning ICE is sone how better. Well sure isn’t good for the lakes.

Your also right that China might be more sloppy in producing batteries and panels.

It is the direction things are going. Massive facilities are going Solar and EV for a reason. I doubt the aim it to pollute more. Amazon, Apple, Meta etc all aim to be carbon neutral. Carbon is the major problem right now. Yea, we will have deal with other side effects too.

Go ahead and encourage the world to keep buying oil from OPEC and Russia I guess is your plan.

I’ll take my chances with PV and EV. Much more manageable, long term.