Mitsubishi system.

[Oletimer]

Could someone offer a few estimates as to what the Mitsubishi ac/heat pump system might cost for whole house 2-1/2 stories or so much for one system like they talk about in the Forum. I know it's difficult or near impossible with so many varying things to consider but I'm hoping for a general "ballpark" idea.

Also, does anyone know how far into Mass.that popular company will service/install? North Shore/South Shore/Just over the NH border?

Thanks for any good guesses .

[Slickcraft]

The 15,000 BTU mini split heat pump with one inside unit installed on Welch Island including an electrician running the 220V line was $3,500 installed cost. This unit should take care of our 24 X 36 cottage. We are eligible for a $900 rebate from PSNH which will bring the net down to $2,600. If installed in a primary residence a federal tax credit may also be available.

When I dropped the install crew off at Glendale docks at 11:30 am they were heading down to Windham for an install. Suggest you call Home Energy Products and ask about a Mass install. One issue would be doing electrical work in another state.

[Oletimer]

Slickcraft, thank you very much. I most appreciate your info.Think I'll call Home Energy Products next Monday. Thanks again.

Oletimer.

[pjard]

Home Energy Products just installed 3 units in my house. The entire job was $9K installed. I think one 19K BTU and two 9K BTU units. The rebates from PSNH of $900 per unit and $300 per unit from Uncle Sam made it a no brainer.

[Oletimer]

Just thought I would post a follow up to let all know I did telephone Home Energy and they said they do not service anywhere in Mass-too much bureaucratic baloney (my words) and rules/regs makes it too costly. Consider your good fortunes in NH!

Thanks for your help anyway.

[kauriel]

I work at a company in MA that connects homeowners to energy efficiency resources, including Mitsubishi mini split ac/heat pumps and other brands as well. You can call our free energy efficiency hotline at 617-963-8141 (mon-fri) for help finding a local installer or you can put in a request for a free consultation anytime at www.sagewell.com/takeaction (for heat/ac pump consultation select the box for energy efficient heating and cooling and then ductless mini split system on the form).

[dt5150]

how do you submit the rebate with psnh? i looked on their site but couldn't find anything. we're going to have a system installed pretty soon hopefully.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by dt5150

how do you submit the rebate with psnh? i looked on their site but couldn't find anything. we're going to have a system installed pretty soon hopefully.

Home Energy Products provided the form 80% filled out with all the equipment details. For info on the program see:
http://nhsaves.com/heatingrebate/heatingcooling.html

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

Home Energy Products provided the form 80% filled out with all the equipment details. For info on the program see:
http://nhsaves.com/heatingrebate/heatingcooling.html

My experience with Home Energy Products is the same as Slickcraft's. When I signed the contract two weeks ago to have them install two "Ductless Mini Split Heat Pumps" at my house, they provided me with the rebate form mostly filled out. All I had to do was complete and sign the form, then send an email to the designated person at NHEC and attach the (scanned) rebate application form, HEP installation contract, and two years' heating oil bills. I received NHEC approval for my rebate within 24 hours via email.

[Billy Bob]

Home Energy installed a unit for me on June 28 . Getting excited about an air conditioner seems nuts but this unit and the install was nothing short of great. Both the inside unit and outside units are VERY quiet . I find myself checking the small " ON " light on the inside unit because I can't hear it . Cools about 1/2 the house which is exactly what was promised . We decided to get a second unit that is being installed next week.

The process with the Co-Op was also great. sent the forms in e mail , did the little survey , advised them of the install and had my check in 10 days , no questions or issues.

Last , the first electric bill we have was MUCH lower then last year running the window type units . Don't have enough time on this for a real usage review but so far so good

[dt5150]

perfect, thanks guys.

[Slickcraft]

I mailed the rebate application on July 12th and I received a check for $900 yesterday, Aug 5th.

[dt5150]

sweet! now all we need to do is get the system.

[pjard]

I got my 3 rebate checks today...took about 4 weeks. By the way, a month later we are still THRILLED and "chilled" with the system. I would HIGHLY recommend them.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by pjard

I got my 3 rebate checks today...took about 4 weeks. By the way, a month later we are still THRILLED and "chilled" with the system. I would HIGHLY recommend them.

Our two units are scheduled for installation tomorrow. We're looking forward to both the economical cooling and heating. We've never had "central A/C" before, so this will be quite a new experience for us.

[Slickcraft]

BTW, the pot of $ for these rebates is limited. For funding status see bottom of this page:
http://www.nhsaves.com/heatingrebate...ngcooling.html

[Dave M]

Was thinking about putting a Tankless Water Heater(have one in MA) in my cottage. Am I allowed this rebate.

Dave M

[HellRaZoR004]

Originally Posted by Dave M

Was thinking about putting a Tankless Water Heater(have one in MA) in my cottage. Am I allowed this rebate.

Dave M

Yes - see the link Slickcraft provided. It depends on the unit you choose if it's covered, and to what amount...

[codeman671]

Do the rebates apply if you don't have an existing system and are adding one? We have only a gas fireplace and window ac units at the island and would like something better.

It looks like the rebates came into effect in April, we installed a new boiler at home in January and would have been eligible for a nice rebate. Too bad.

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by codeman671

Do the rebates apply if you don't have an existing system and are adding one? We have only a gas fireplace and window ac units at the island and would like something better.

It looks like the rebates came into effect in April, we installed a new boiler at home in January and would have been eligible for a nice rebate. Too bad.

We had no existing system on the island, only a wood stove and space heaters.

[DRH]

Our two Mitsubishi "Ductless Mini Split" heat pump units were installed by Home Energy Products yesterday. The installation, including the addition of two new 220VAC electrical circuits, took about 6 hours. The installation team was excellent, utilizing drop cloths on the carpets and vacuuming up all debris and dust. All in all, they did a first-class job.

The weather yesterday afternoon got fairly warm and quite humid, yet after the two systems had been running for about 1/2 hour the house was quite comfortable. As the units cooled the house down to 72 degs, the fan speed gradually dropped down to the level of a whisper. If we are more than a few feet from the inside units we can barely hear the fans. We're quite satisfied.

By the way, Mitsubishi has designated Home Energy Products a "Diamond Contractor", which provides for a 7-year parts & labor warranty on the entire system. The only repair cost (after the first year) is a dealer service charge of around $150. All other repair costs are covered under the warranty.

[Winni-Retired]

I have them coming over on Tuesday to do a site walk around.

We have 1040 sq foot, single level with attic access.

I think we will need a unit in each bedroom (2) approx. 200 sq feet each and one in the living area approx. 500 sq feet.

I currently have one 22000 BTU thru the wall A/C in the living area and only ceiling fans in the bedrooms. ..... this unit is loud and consumes a lot of energy...

The heating is an oil fired monitor and electric base board

My question to you is how many BTU's did you buy for what size home and why two units and not one or three ?

Also how far from the ceiling do they install them ?

My wife is concerned about them being the new center of attention when one enters the room.

Thanks,

[@thelake]

Steve/Home Energy Products will take good care of you, I have no doubt of that. He'll recommend the appropriate size unit(s) for your space, based on your needs, current insulation, other sources of air conditioning/heating, etc.

We have two 9's and an 18, the H2i HyperHeat units that excel in cooling and heating (down to some pretty chilly minus zero temps) and these units must report to individual outside units, while the standard heat pumps can share an outside unit. That could give you some additional flexibility for installation. The lines (for both types) do have max lengths and max height differences, some smaller unit minimums are 65' away, 40' rise, for larger units that increases to 100' away.

You can find all of this information in the brochures they'll give you, you can also find many online, like this one:
http://www.mehvac.com/UploadedFiles/...im_catalog.pdf
but they'll figure all that out for you. They also enclose the outside lines in a nice conduit, pictured at the end of this brochure. In some cases they can run the lines inside the wall.

With your current electric baseboard heat, you'll really see the savings, the heat pumps offer (more than!) 300% efficiency over conventional resistance/baseboard heat. A nice bonus is that like your individually zoned baseboard heat, the Mitsu's also provide zoned heating away from your oil monitor heater.

Our installation by Home Energy Products was also exceptional in every way (and I don't get to say that very often), and I'm sure they'll work with you if you have a placement concern. Our 9's are located several (5?) inches below the ceiling in the basement and master bedroom, and in the living room where we have an 18 and a cathedral ceiling, it's well balanced, but several feet under the ceiling. Regular cleaning of the air filters is needed, so the top cover/gate lifts up, hinging on the top. They'll allow room for that door to open when they install the inside unit.

There's a free iOS app that lets you take a picture (or use an existing picture) of the space you intend to install the inside unit, and it will superimpose the inside air handler. It's not perfect, but perhaps something to play with until your site visit tomorrow.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/meview/id461786820

They'll have plenty of photos showing past work and I have no doubt you'll have a really good sense of (everything, really) how things will look before they leave.

As far as being the new center of attention, eeh, maybe? (Measurements available in the above linked PDF) The inside units aren't especially small (I have no problem with the size relative to the function, compared to an equivalent window a/c unit). They're a nice tan color and blend in well...but as far as I'm concerned, they could have the paint scheme of a Mountain Dew soda can with flashing neon lights, because I just can't help but smile every time I see them.

I'm not alone here, look around here and off this board, everyone loves these units.

Hope you will be, too. The value these heat pumps bring (especially over supplemental electric resistance heat...+300%!!!), the reliability of the Mitsubishi product/the warrantee and the rebate too, really makes this decision a no brainer. I'm sure, if you solicit multiple quotes, there will be value/savings in the Home Energy Products bid. For us, no one was even close, and no one else told us about the rebate. They say, throw out the lowest bid, but with our offers, no one else knew the product as well as Steve from Home Energy Products in Belmont. I have no connection to them, I do not make them aware of my comments, they're just a company that took really good care of me, and I'm passing along my experience with the hope it will help others.

And come to think of it, I'm glad they're an inconspicuous tan color, I'm still smiling.

Good luck.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Winni-Retired

I have them coming over on Tuesday to do a site walk around.

We have 1040 sq foot, single level with attic access.

I think we will need a unit in each bedroom (2) approx. 200 sq feet each and one in the living area approx. 500 sq feet.

I currently have one 22000 BTU thru the wall A/C in the living area and only ceiling fans in the bedrooms. ..... this unit is loud and consumes a lot of energy...

The heating is an oil fired monitor and electric base board

My question to you is how many BTU's did you buy for what size home and why two units and not one or three ?

Also how far from the ceiling do they install them ?

My wife is concerned about them being the new center of attention when one enters the room.

Thanks,

Winni-Retired - sorry I didn't see your post sooner.

The larger of the two units we had installed is 18K BTUs and it heats/cools an area of about 1,400 sq. ft. The smaller unit is 12K BTUs and it heats/cools an area about 900 sq. ft. The units are mounted about 4" down from the ceilings. The reason we bought two units is that the larger one is for the first floor and the other one is for the second floor. On the first floor we are only heating/cooling the main living areas. The second floor is one mostly-open room.

What color are your walls? If they are painted a light color the units, being an off-white, probably won't be too noticeable. We have knotty-pine walls on the first floor so that unit is a bit conspicuous, but we've gotten used to it quickly and it isn't objectionable.

Speaking of ceilings, the height of your ceilings will affect not only how the units look in your house, but the size in BTUs you will need, since the cooling/heating requirement is based on the volume of your rooms, not just the area.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like any further info, although by now the HEP guy(s) will probably have answered all your questions. How did their visit go yesterday?

[KDL]

I installed an 18,000 BTU unit last year to heat a new 2 car garage. The ability to cool was a bonus. Can't say enough good things about them. Worked well even down below zero. I only wish I had them installed in our house. Maybe next year.

[First Mate]

Thanks for all the info in this thread, it helped me make the decision to install a 12K unit a few weeks ago. Our old existing propane heater hangs below the floor and is not to code, but I knew that when I bought the place a year ago. I was headed for replacement with a Rinnai but I know its drawbacks, I've had one in my bedroom at home for 10+ years.

Since it's our first year in this camp I don't have a fuel usage history, but NHEC still allowed the rebate--very happy about that. Because of the rebate the price was comparable to the Rinnai and I gained an AC unit in the process!

I have been using it for heat only thus far, it's very quiet and does a good job. I think it could have been sited better for heating (it was not Steve) but I need to play with the controls. Visually it is in the best spot--which was my concern when we planned it--but I wasn't aware that when it is set for heat the vanes automatically point straight down. There is shelving on the wall that's 8" below the unit that gets plenty warm. I know I can aim them differently but there's a compromise with the "auto" function.

I kept the electric baseboards in the bedroom for budget reasons, maybe I can add one there next year as well.

Anyway, thanks for (unknowingly) guiding me in this direction, otherwise I would never have thought of it!

[Slickcraft]

FM, now that it is used only for heat in the fall, manually set the vanes higher rather than set on auto. You can leave it that way until next July.
We were going to get the 12,000 but the higher rebate for the 15,000 paid for the difference.

[tummyman]

Home Energy finished my Mitsubishi Mini Split installation Wednesday, as part of installing systems for three homes on our street this week. We couldn't be more pleased with the quality of work from Home Energy and their people. In our home, we have one 36K outside unit supplying four indoor units.....one 18K BTU floor unit on the first floor and there 6K wall units in bedrooms on the second floor. We are amazed at how quiet these things are. The installation was not easy...through a crawl space, into closet walls, and through the attic for the second floor units. The installation team was neat, very professional, and a pleasure to have in our home. People cannot go wrong with hiring the team of Home Energy !!! Excellent work and a great product !!!

[Fargo]

Any winter results on the performance of the heat pumps mentioned above? Just signed a contract with Home Energy today due to yesterday's heat wave.

[pjard]

They did GREAT. I would guess they worked all the way down to the teens, maybe lower. I couldn't be more please with the winter benefits of the systems.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Any winter results on the performance of the heat pumps mentioned above? Just signed a contract with Home Energy today due to yesterday's heat wave.

We just experienced our first winter using two Mitsubishi Mini-Split heat pump units that we had installed last August. The two units perform exceptionally well, and as advertised they produced abundant heat even when the outdoor temps. were in the single digits.

It's hard to state precisely how much our monthly electric bills rose due just to the heat pumps (primarily since we also have two dock ice-eaters running during the winter months as well), but I would estimate the two Mini-Split units increased our monthly electric bill somewhere between $125 - $150 during January and February, and slightly less than that in March.

We do have several smaller areas of our home that continue to require heat from our oil-fired boiler, but this past winter we used about 60% less heating oil than we did the previous winter (which was not nearly as cold or long). So the Mitsubishi units definitely saved us quite a bit of money compared to when we heated solely with oil.

All in all, we are completely satisfied with the Mitsubishi heat pumps.

[tummyman]

I have had almost zero oil usage all winter from my prior system. Mitsubishi's performed flawlessly. I set my oil system to 50 and the Mitsubishi's to 60. Only on a very few very cold nights below zero did I see my oil system run. The following data might be useful.....

Below is the daily KWH consumption...this year vs. last.
Nov 5, 2012 6.933 Nov 5, 2013 8.286
Dec 5, 2012 3.364 Dec 9, 2013 33.118
Jan 5, 2013 3.567 Jan 9, 2014 53.968
Feb 5, 2013 4.333 Feb 10, 2014 49.219
Mar 5, 2013 3.750 Mar 10, 2014 51.036
Apr 5, 2013 3.452 Apr 8, 2014 47.034

Electricity cost increases......based on daily KWH demand & days n billing cycle
Nov. '13 $5.05 (low...system installed Oct. 30)
Dec. '13 $134.80
Jan. '14 $208.19
Feb. "14 $191.39
Mar. '14 $176.42
Apr. '14 $168.42
Total = $884.27 cost increase for electricity. If I divide this by the average cost of oil of about $3.79/gallon, I get 233 gallons of oil equivalent for the increased cost of electricity. Last year, I bought 328 gallons of oil during the same period for a WARMER winter. So I guesstimate my savings are in a range of about 25-30% less EQUIVALENT oil usage.....not bad in a very cold winter. My house is over 2000 sq. ft with excellent insulation, great windows, and a fairly new three pass heating system (8 years old and it sipped oil). Saving about 100 gallons of oil per season isn't bad, but the payback does take a while. Remember, my prior system was very efficient. But the benefits are hard to refute. Our system was installed for the AC benefits and the heat pump benefits were a lucky strike extra. Top notch system installed by top notch team from Home Energy.

[RLW]

I think you will find that all the systems like Panasonic, Samsung, Mitsubishi's and all the many other brands perform the exact same. I know my Panasonic works just as good as everyone here is saying about the Mitsubishi. I think that the inverter systems work great. I have 2 units one upstairs and one down that produce 24K BTU each enough to do both floors and boy do they keep the humidity down during the muggy season.

[dt5150]

we could use one in our current house.. had one in my old house years ago, a/c only, no heat pump. loved it during the summer. i want to get some for our current house but can't cough up the $ out of pocket, and apparenly home energy products doesn't offer financing anymore. bummer..

[kauriel]

If anyone in MA is interested in mini-splits/heat pumps there is a rebate program that will be available this summer through August 31, 2014 or when funding runs out, whichever comes first. Rebates of up to $6250 are available for the air source heat pumps (ductless mini-splits) or up to $10,000 for ground source heat pumps. Mitsubishi is one of 3 participating dealers for the air source heat pump program. http://www.masscec.com/programs/comm...ng-and-cooling

[SteveO123]

We just had 5 (yup 5) of the Mr. Slim Hyper Heat Pump units installed at the Lake. One vendor recommended a single condenser with 5 zones, but we went with Home Energy Products' recommendation for individual condenser/inside pairs. Efficiency is off the charts for these (SEER of 26!) and they will heat at 100% capacity all the way down to 5 degrees F, then at 70% down to -13F.

The multi-zone unit was far less efficient, and we also qualified for 5 of the $500 NH Saves rebates! The systems were installed very professionally, and the HEP crew worked with me to find the most unobtrusive places to run the lines up the house and site the condensers.

I couldn't be happier. HEP's price was far cheaper (read THOUSANDS) than the others, and their system even included remote thermostats and the internet gateways so I can control them from my phone. (Did I mention an additional $200 rebate for the internet thermostats?)

We should be saving big bucks from here. I wholeheartedly recommend you talk to Josh and Steve at Home Energy Products in Belmont if you are interested in these ultra-efficient units!

-SteveO

[Fargo]

Home Energy just installed two units for us. The three man crew did a fantastic job installing them. Couldn't ask for more pleasant people to be working in our home. The place is cleaner now then when they arrived. Very impressed.

[Fargo]

Just received our electric bill. I'm estimating that it will cost just under $20 a month to run two heat pumps that keep 1600 sq ft very cool and comfortable. Just an FYI update.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Fargo

Just received our electric bill. I'm estimating that it will cost just under $20 a month to run two heat pumps that keep 1600 sq ft very cool and comfortable. Just an FYI update.

Yup, that sounds about in the ballpark of what I figured...

Dan

[SteveO123]

Like hotcakes in this heat!

Hope this link works. (Scroll to the bottom of the page for graph of funds remaining)

http://www.nhsaves.com/save-home/sav...ating-systems/

We just got our PSNH rebates last week (about a month wait) and it looks like the funds are almost depleted! Act fast!

Stay cool..
Steve

[SteveO123]

How's everybody doing with their heat pumps now? I love mine so far... Nice and cozy when we are up and set back to 50 when we are not here. Haven't seen the electric bill yet but I will post when I get it.

Cheers, Steve

[pjard]

Still cranking mine...last night was in the teens in Gilford and it kept up just fine. Love keeping that boiler off!

[Billy Bob]

The cooling part was great all summer , actually running the system on "DRYING " worked for a good part of the summer pulling out the humidity.
The cost of use was very low and of course these units run very quietly.

As we used them for heating we have no issue with the actual heating ,, its even in the rooms , responds quickly , etc but I'm not sure about the efficiency heating with these heat pumps .
I,m sure that as the outside temp approaches zero you may want to be swapping over to the oil furnace as the more temp difference the less efficient these get .

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Billy Bob

The cooling part was great all summer , actually running the system on "DRYING " worked for a good part of the summer pulling out the humidity.
The cost of use was very low and of course these units run very quietly.

As we used them for heating we have no issue with the actual heating ,, its even in the rooms , responds quickly , etc but I'm not sure about the efficiency heating with these heat pumps .
I,m sure that as the outside temp approaches zero you may want to be swapping over to the oil furnace as the more temp difference the less efficient these get .

I believe SteveO had the "Hyper Heat Pumps" installed which are super efficient well below zero. I believe they offer 100% efficiency at 5°F and 73% capacity at -13°F. The standard heat pump which is what I have (used primarily for cooling) start losing efficiency around 30 degrees.

For my seasonal camp I absolutely love mine and wouldn't be without them!!

Dan

[Great Northern Cleaning]

So we had Home Energy Products come out and install one of the Mitsubishi units last week. It works as promised and we are very pleased with the installation. I just got home and noticed that I could hear the outside unit running..so I went out to check on it and noticed all the fins are froze up. Is this normal? For anyone that has one of these units….do you have any kind of shelter over it? My feeling is its the freezing rain getting pulled in by the blower fan. It was to late to call H. E. P. to ask them. Any input from experienced heat pump owners would be welcome. Frank GNC

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by Great Northern Cleaning

So we had Home Energy Products come out and install one of the Mitsubishi units last week. It works as promised and we are very pleased with the installation. I just got home and noticed that I could hear the outside unit running..so I went out to check on it and noticed all the fins are froze up. Is this normal? For anyone that has one of these units….do you have any kind of shelter over it? My feeling is its the freezing rain getting pulled in by the blower fan. It was to late to call H. E. P. to ask them. Any input from experienced heat pump owners would be welcome. Frank GNC

No I do not believe it should freeze up (but I could be wrong) unless you accidentally had it in A.C. Mode. I have no cover over mine and have seen many that way.

H.E.P. Is great regarding service so best to call them first thing in the AM to get the scoop.

Let us know what the outcome is.

Dan

Edited to add that I now vaguely remember home energy saying something about the fins freezing up is normal and melts when going through a melting cycle, so you may be OK

[RLW]

I have a Panasonic (2) and have never had a problem in the 3 years I have had them and I use them during the winter to just take the chill out of the rooms as we have the oil heat turned down to 54 at night, really most all the time as we lite the stove in the am and shut down as it goes out and re-lite in the evening when the sun goes down.

[DRH]

Frank - We had two Mitsubishi Mini-Split units installed in 2013. In cold weather when the units are in heat mode, the fins on the outside unit (compressor) can accumulate frost due to the extremely low temperature of the coolant running through them.

However, the units are programmed to sense this frost buildup on the compressor fins and to automatically go into a "defrost" mode that melts the accumulated frost.

During the defrost mode, the outside unit runs but the fan in the inside unit does not run. The system circulates the coolant, extracting some heat from the air in the house and using it to defrost the fins on the outside unit. (The fan on the inside unit does not run during the defrost mode so as not to blow cool/cold air into the house.)

On our two systems, we can tell when they are temporarily running in defrost mode as we can hear a "gurgling" sound coming from the inside units. The defrost mode only lasts for a minute or so, after which the system reverts back to the normal heat mode. On very cold days the units can go into temporary defrost mode a number of times during the day.

If this is not the way your system is operating, then a call to HEP is in order, if you have not already done so.

Please let us know how you make out.

[RLW]

DRH, very good clear and precise explanation. I didn't think to go into that much detail, but does answer the question very clearly.

[MGWillia]

Originally Posted by DRH

Frank - We had two Mitsubishi Mini-Split units installed in 2013. In cold weather when the units are in heat mode, the fins on the outside unit (compressor) can accumulate frost due to the extremely low temperature of the coolant running through them.

However, the units are programmed to sense this frost buildup on the compressor fins and to automatically go into a "defrost" mode that melts the accumulated frost.

During the defrost mode, the outside unit runs but the fan in the inside unit does not run. The system circulates the coolant, extracting some heat from the air in the house and using it to defrost the fins on the outside unit. (The fan on the inside unit does not run during the defrost mode so as not to blow cool/cold air into the house.)

On our two systems, we can tell when they are temporarily running in defrost mode as we can hear a "gurgling" sound coming from the inside units. The defrost mode only lasts for a minute or so, after which the system reverts back to the normal heat mode. On very cold days the units can go into temporary defrost mode a number of times during the day.

If this is not the way your system is operating, then a call to HEP is in order, if you have not already done so.

Please let us know how you make out.

Hi Frank. If I may ask, how big a space are you heating/cooling with two units? Do you feel they are cost effective to run? Are you running another system too? And if you don't mind saying, about what did a two unit system cost you? (Yeah, you get the big list of questions as you give the most indepth answers )

[DRH]

Originally Posted by MGWillia

Hi Frank. If I may ask, how big a space are you heating/cooling with two units? Do you feel they are cost effective to run? Are you running another system too? And if you don't mind saying, about what did a two unit system cost you? (Yeah, you get the big list of questions as you give the most indepth answers )

I think you may have intended to address your questions to me, so I'll provide some info.

We have one 18K and one 12K mini-split units. both of which were installed in August of 2013. The 18K unit heats/cools about 1,600 sq. ft. (first floor) and the 12K unit heats/cools about 900 sq. ft. (second floor). We also heat with a wood-burning fireplace insert and and an oil-fired hot water heating system.

The heat pumps supply about 90% of our heat on the second floor and probably about 70% of our heat on the first floor. A bathroom on the second floor is on its own oil system heating zone, and the oil system supplements the first floor heat pump in three relatively small rooms that are off a hallway on their own zone. Those are the only rooms that still utilize oil heat.

During the heating season we run the wood stove/insert on the first floor most days when the outside temperature is 35 degs or below, especially if it's windy, and every evening. We typically burn about two cords of firewood each winter.

Looking over our New Hampshire Electric Coop (NHEC) electrical bills for the 2012/2013 and 2013/2014 heating seasons, I estimate that the winter heat pump operation increased our overall electricity expense by about $600 during the 2013/2014 heating season. (Our useage of the wood-burning fireplace insert was approximately the same during both heating seasons.)

Offsetting the increased electricity cost was a significant savings on heating oil. I estimate that we burned approximately 750 fewer gallons of heating oil during the 2013/2014 heating season than we did during the 2012/2013 heating season. Based on today's going price of about $3.00 per gallon for home heating oil, that equates to a savings of $2,250 due to the use of the heat pumps in the 2013/2014 heating season.

Therefore, the effect of the heat pump installation in August of 2013 was a net cost savings of about $1,650 to heat our home during the 2013/2014 heating season compared to the previous year.

The total cost for the installation of the two Mitsubishi Mini-Split units in 2013 was $7,500. However, NHEC provided an $1,800 incentive rebate check, and the IRS allowed a $300 energy credit on our 2013 Federal tax return. These two credits reduced the net cost of the heat pump installation to $5,400.

So, it appears that the heat pump installation at our house will likely pay for itself in 3.3 years. The Mitsubishi units come with a 7-year manufacturer warranty.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by DRH

Frank - We had two Mitsubishi Mini-Split units installed in 2013. In cold weather when the units are in heat mode, the fins on the outside unit (compressor) can accumulate frost due to the extremely low temperature of the coolant running through them.

However, the units are programmed to sense this frost buildup on the compressor fins and to automatically go into a "defrost" mode that melts the accumulated frost.

During the defrost mode, the outside unit runs but the fan in the inside unit does not run. The system circulates the coolant, extracting some heat from the air in the house and using it to defrost the fins on the outside unit. (The fan on the inside unit does not run during the defrost mode so as not to blow cool/cold air into the house.)

On our two systems, we can tell when they are temporarily running in defrost mode as we can hear a "gurgling" sound coming from the inside units. The defrost mode only lasts for a minute or so, after which the system reverts back to the normal heat mode. On very cold days the units can go into temporary defrost mode a number of times during the day.

If this is not the way your system is operating, then a call to HEP is in order, if you have not already done so.

Please let us know how you make out.

We just had 5 units installed this summer and have been using them for heat as well this fall. I was wondering what the odd gurgle sound was the other day so I am guessing it's defrost mode. Thanks for the info!! I hope we save similar to you as we are on oil heat as well. So far we have not had the oil heat on at all yet this sseason....

[tummyman]

We had our system installed in Oct 2013. Ran it all last winter and did not use a drop of oil. Electric bills were up, but overall we saved money....but not a huge amount as our house is very energy efficient. This year, we are in a different situation. With NHEC increase of 29% on the electricity part of the bill and oil at very low prices of less than $3/gallon, we believe we are now in a situation where running our oil system will be more cost effective this year. So we are back on oil and will keep monitoring, but with high electric and low oil, it only makes economic sense for us to use oil this winter....unless oil prices really spike. But with oil now looking like 15-20% below last year and electricity up 29%, the spread is in favor of oil. I'd like to hear what others think. None of this reflects poorly on the Mitsubishi's....we love them and they work fabulously, but we will always make decisions based on the core energy prices.

[ITD]

The math in some of these savings stories is giving me some issues. They are just not adding up for me, although admittedly I haven't seen many numbers.

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by ITD

The math in some of these savings stories is giving me some issues. They are just not adding up for me, although admittedly I haven't seen many numbers.

Maybe the math does not add up if you are installing these to just save oil. I wanted to install AC and these was the most efficient way to get AC in my house. The heating capability is just a bonus. The electric bill this month will help me decide when to turn the oil heat.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by 4Fun

Maybe the math does not add up if you are installing these to just save oil. I wanted to install AC and these was the most efficient way to get AC in my house. The heating capability is just a bonus. The electric bill this month will help me decide when to turn the oil heat.

And that is perfectly reasonable, glad it is working for you.

[tummyman]

I agree...my prior post was just my way of explaining my action. We also installed the Mitsubishi's for AC and the heat was an added bonus. They are fabulous for BOTH heat and AC, but there is always a price part of the equation.

[SIKSUKR]

How can a regulated electric utility increase 30% in 1 year? Am I missing something?

[BroadHopper]

It was to my understanding there is a program when you populate the cost of electricity and the cost of backup heat, the system will automatically shut down and turn on the boiler whatever is most economical. That was what I was told by the dealer.

[Little Bear]

Originally Posted by SIKSUKR

How can a regulated electric utility increase 30% in 1 year? Am I missing something?

If the utlility to which they are referring is New Hampshire Electric Coop, then the answer is clear: They are not regulated by NH Public Utilites Commission, or anyone else for that matter. They are crooks - plain and simple.

[pcmc]

Originally Posted by Little Bear

If the utlility to which they are referring is New Hampshire Electric Coop, then the answer is clear: They are not regulated by NH Public Utilites Commission, or anyone else for that matter. They are crooks - plain and simple.

Are there other electric providers to choose from?

[ishoot308]

Here's a great cost comparison chart I found for home heating. You can enter the current cost of each fuel to get actual comparison numbers. As you can see ductless heat pumps are an incredible money saver!

http://www.efficiencymaine.com/at-ho...st-comparison/

Dan

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Here's a great cost comparison chart I found for home heating. You can enter the current cost of each fuel to get actual comparison numbers. As you can see ductless heat pumps are an incredible money saver!

http://www.efficiencymaine.com/at-ho...st-comparison/

Dan

That's a good chart if the calculations are correct. Trouble is I am not sure what portion my heat is over hot water. With long showers and lots of laundry and dishwashing I am sure my boiler is running a lot anyway. I do know I burn way less in the summer though

[ITD]

So the calculation is not that easy and I'm a little skeptical of the numbers in ishoot's link. Electric rates have skyrocketed this year, especially in Mass. due directly to Gov. Patrick's clean air initiative and the resultant closing of coal plants. Add to that a shortage of natural gas when temps approach 20 degrees and electricity becomes very expensive. ( the gas plants have to switch to diesel so that pressure can be maintained for NG heating customers). Also heat pump output diminishes below 40 degrees, regardless of technology, there is just less heat available in the air.

I don't have time to calculate the numbers right now but I don't think the difference is as great as that link alludes.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by ITD

So the calculation is not that easy and I'm a little skeptical of the numbers in ishoot's link. Electric rates have skyrocketed this year, especially in Mass. due directly to Gov. Patrick's clean air initiative and the resultant closing of coal plants. Add to that a shortage of natural gas when temps approach 20 degrees and electricity becomes very expensive. ( the gas plants have to switch to diesel so that pressure can be maintained for NG heating customers). Also heat pump output diminishes below 40 degrees, regardless of technology, there is just less heat available in the air.

I don't have time to calculate the numbers right now but I don't think the difference is as great as that link alludes.

Your supposed to input your own values based on the current price of fuels, then hit calculate...

[ITD]

Originally Posted by ishoot308

Your supposed to input your own values based on the current price of fuels, then hit calculate...

I understand, for most of the systems listed, the efficiency is pretty constant regardless of outdoor temperatures. For a heat pump not so much. It is very difficult to find this info is the Mitsubishi web site. Most of the pertinent data is apparently in the technicians side of the website, I'm not sure I can get to that info, it certainly hasn't been easy to find. But they do put a sample table at the end of one of the brochures. I'll transcribe below.

at 32 degrees this unit produces 16,469 btus
at 14 degrees it produces 13,453 btus
at 5 degrees it produces 11,260 btus
at -4 degrees it produces 8,970 btus


This is fine if the system is designed properly, but it definitely affects the efficiency..... I would feel better about the link you provided if it disclosed how they got their numbers.

Here's where I found mine:

http://www.mitsubishipro.com/media/3...actorguide.pdf

[DickR]

Originally Posted by ITD

.... Also heat pump output diminishes below 40 degrees, regardless of technology, there is just less heat available in the air.

For a heat pump in heating mode, the term to be used is not efficiency, as for a combustion device, but "Coefficient of Performance" (COP), which is the total heat delivered divided by the heat equivalent of the electric power input (3412 BTU/hr per KW). There is a theoretical limit to COP, for infinite heat exchange surface area on both heat absorption and heat release sides of the system and for an engine operating isentropically, which is T(hot)/[T(hot)-T(cold)], for T on the absolute scale (t in F +460). Thus for any heat pump the COP must drop as the temperature difference from hot to cold increases). This comes from here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../heatpump.html.

It isn't as much that there is less heat in the air; one just has to move more air to grab the same amount of heat from it. It's more a matter of "how high" that heat has to be pumped, temperature-wise. It's like pumping water uphill; the higher the lift, the more power it takes to deliver a given water flow. Or, for a given pumping power (compressor input), the flow decreases as the "lift" (temperature difference) increases.

The refrigerant fluid used for absorbing heat from the outside air must evaporate at some temperature below that of the outside air, and after compression of the vapor to some high enough pressure it must condense at some temperature greater than that of the inside room air. A heat pump can be designed for almost any range of outside air temperatures by selection of the right fluid and operating pressures, and for any unit there is a lower limit below which it can't move any heat, because there is no temperature difference to drive heat into the evaporating refrigerant.

[pcmc]

Hi All,
Now that we are having a January freeze would some of the owners if these split systems chime in with some feed back if you don't mind?

Are the split systems meeting your expectations for heating?
Are they sufficient or at this time of year or merely a supplemental heating source, or are they not that useful?

I would still like to invest in one but am curious how well they really perform.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

[pjard]

I just now shut my three systems off. I just can't feel them pulling much heat tonight. However this is the first time all this winter that I have shut them off. I am extremely satisfied with work they do.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by pcmc

Hi All,
Now that we are having a January freeze would some of the owners if these split systems chime in with some feed back if you don't mind?

Are the split systems meeting your expectations for heating?
Are they sufficient or at this time of year or merely a supplemental heating source, or are they not that useful?

I would still like to invest in one but am curious how well they really perform.

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Even with the bitter cold we are now experiencing at the lake, our two Mitsubishi mini-split heat pump systems are working very well. We are getting plenty of heat from our two systems even when the outside temps. are in the single digits.

Mitsubishi recently issued a recall on the primary circuit boards in its 18K BTU heat pump systems. Apparently the original boards caused too-frequent defrost cycles when the outside temps. were very low. The replacement boards were installed in our 18K system yesterday and it is operating well, with far fewer defrost cycles.

We continue to be very satisfied with our two Mitsubishi heat pump systems. They are our primary heat source.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by pjard

I just now shut my three systems off. I just can't feel them pulling much heat tonight. However this is the first time all this winter that I have shut them off. I am extremely satisfied with work they do.

pjard;

Can I assume you you do not have the "hyper heat" units and are running the standard units??...

Thanks!

Dan

[pjard]

I must admit I'm not sure. I installed them last summer (2013). I believe they were the latest and greatest! They were still throwing heat late this afternoon but I figured with oil prices in the dirt and my garage FULL of pellets and bio bricks that I would crank up the wood stove and pellet stove tonight and give the splits a break.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by pjard

I must admit I'm not sure. I installed them last summer (2013). I believe they were the latest and greatest! They were still throwing heat late this afternoon but I figured with oil prices in the dirt and my garage FULL of pellets and bio bricks that I would crank up the wood stove and pellet stove tonight and give the splits a break.

The reason I ask is the hyper heat units throw plenty of heat well below zero and are 100% efficient at 5 degrees and was curious why you were turning them off.

Dan

[tummyman]

I had my units installed in Oct 2013. Ran them exclusively last winter with my oil heat system totally off. We were extremely pleased with results and saved money overall, but maybe not as much as some since my house was very efficient. That said, this winter we have done the reverse....turned off the Mitsubishi's entirely unless we go up for a few days when we can adjust the inside temp higher using the mini-splits from our laptop before we get there. With the 27% increase in electric rates and the very large drop in oil prices, we are substantially money ahead using oil this winter so far. We had zero issues with the Mitsubishi's....it was just an economic decision since the prices of oil and electricity were going in opposite directions. I suspect in future years this will not be the case, but we will revisit it each year. My Mitsubishi system is a 36K BTU system and does not have the hyper heat, as it was not available in the 36K BTU system and the wife did not want two outside units.

[SteveO123]

Hi, I just wanted to check in with my HyperHeat Mini-spilts.

Up until yesterday they were the sole source of heat in the house. (I have 5 units installed, one 15Kbtu in the open area downstairs and one 9Kbtu each in the 4 bedrooms. The house is a 2200 SF two-story, remodeled in the 90's. We have oil fired hot water and a propane fireplace insert too.

When we bought the house last year I added 6" of attic insulation, getting now to R38-ish levels. I was unsure of the wall insulation. However, with all the ongoing remodeling, I noticed that the exterior walls had a 1" or so thick foil-faced insulation in the 2 x 4 walls! SO I have been tearing down the walls and insulating with Roxul mineral wool batts (R15 for 3"--great stuff!). So wall heat loss is a problem.

The Mitsubishi units have kept us nice and comfy so far. Yesterday as the temps plummeted past 0, they couldn't keep up despite continually pumping out the hot air. Which has a lot more to do with the heat loss than the HyperHeat units. So I set the oil boiler to come on to help.

Although we are only at the Lake 3-4 days per week, our entire electric bill was $180 for December, which is about $100 more than last year. The units excel at efficiently keeping a minimum heat level (50-55 deg.) while we are away.

All in all I am still quite happy, as our original need for the units was as an alternative for central air. To have such flexibility with various fuel prices as they fluctuate is the best of all worlds.

--Steve

[4Fun]

Originally Posted by SteveO123

Hi, I just wanted to check in with my HyperHeat Mini-spilts.

Up until yesterday they were the sole source of heat in the house. (I have 5 units installed, one 15Kbtu in the open area downstairs and one 9Kbtu each in the 4 bedrooms. The house is a 2200 SF two-story, remodeled in the 90's. We have oil fired hot water and a propane fireplace insert too.

When we bought the house last year I added 6" of attic insulation, getting now to R38-ish levels. I was unsure of the wall insulation. However, with all the ongoing remodeling, I noticed that the exterior walls had a 1" or so thick foil-faced insulation in the 2 x 4 walls! SO I have been tearing down the walls and insulating with Roxul mineral wool batts (R15 for 3"--great stuff!). So wall heat loss is a problem.

The Mitsubishi units have kept us nice and comfy so far. Yesterday as the temps plummeted past 0, they couldn't keep up despite continually pumping out the hot air. Which has a lot more to do with the heat loss than the HyperHeat units. So I set the oil boiler to come on to help.

Although we are only at the Lake 3-4 days per week, our entire electric bill was $180 for December, which is about $100 more than last year. The units excel at efficiently keeping a minimum heat level (50-55 deg.) while we are away.

All in all I am still quite happy, as our original need for the units was as an alternative for central air. To have such flexibility with various fuel prices as they fluctuate is the best of all worlds.

--Steve

We have pretty much the same set up except a 24K on the first floor and a 9K in the finished basement as well. We have been using them exclusivly for heat up until l this week as well. I turned the oil on as I was afraid the baseboard might freeze since it is run on some outside walls. Our electric bill went up about $150 in Nov. Don't know what December is yet but they seem less expensive to run over oil. Plus the temp is actually more stable!!

We plan to run them if the temp is >15 outside.

[Tbrennan67]

Hi everyone I'm a mitsubishi diamond dealer I will be installing hyper heat units in the lakes region anyone looking for a quote can call me @ 978-804-2856. I am in moultonbrough thanks tim

[upthesaukee]

Welcome... I hope you will enjoy the forum and the people associated with it.

In case you haven't seen it, there is a Classified area on this site, and the best part of that section is that you can post advertising your business, and it costs you nothing.

Free is good.

[webmaster]

Just a reminder that although I stop businesses from posting new threads that are clearly advertisements, businesses are allowed and encouraged to answer questions. Oletimer asked a question about installing Mitsubishi systems and Tbrennan67 (a Mitsubishi dealer) answered it. This is perfectly acceptable, especially in the Home Maintenance section.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by webmaster

Just a reminder that although I stop businesses from posting new threads that are clearly advertisements, businesses are allowed and encouraged to answer questions. Oletimer asked a question about installing Mitsubishi systems and Tbrennan67 (a Mitsubishi dealer) answered it. This is perfectly acceptable, especially in the Home Maintenance section.

Besides welcoming him, I simply wanted to let him know there was a classified ad section that may also help his business. Sorry if I created work for you, Webmaster.

I like to check into the ads from time to time to see who is advertising, and do I need their services.

[MDoug]

Originally Posted by webmaster

Just a reminder that although I stop businesses from posting new threads that are clearly advertisements, businesses are allowed and encouraged to answer questions. Oletimer asked a question about installing Mitsubishi systems and Tbrennan67 (a Mitsubishi dealer) answered it. This is perfectly acceptable, especially in the Home Maintenance section.

Good!

I have Mr. Slim Mitsubishi ac units. Can they be converted to heat as well?

[Tbrennan67]

tbrennan67 sorry for my post earlier, I"m new to this site, to Mdoug you mr slim a/c unit can not be converted in the field sorry, your not the first to ask me that ? I don't mind a phone call if you want the long version.

[DesertDweller]

So I am considering one these Mitsubishi units for room I finished off last year. It has a skylight and can get pretty toasty in there in the summer time. I got a quote and was told that the NH Co-Op has rebates but they are available only for the units with the heat pumps (i.e. do both cooling and heating). If you factor in the rebate, it would actually cost less to get the unit with the heat pump then the unit that only does cooling. Assume this is a no brainer (i.e. get the one with the heat pump) but want to make sure I am not missing anything (in terms of whether it's better to have a unit without the heat pump). Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[SteveO123]

We decided on the Mitsu heat pumps for the AC. We opted for the ultra efficient hyper heat pumps and wow are we happy after our first winter. Heating and cooling for the price of AC alone. It is the proverbial no braina as we say up heayah...

[Slickcraft]

I would get the heat pump unless the A/C only is significantly more efficient than the heat pump cooling mode and you are absolutely certain that you would never use the heat mode of the pump. But I am thinking that the newly finished room may just benefit from a spot of heat in January.

We have the heat pump in our recently finished room over on Welch and make good use of both A/C and heat modes.

[DesertDweller]

Thanks for the input. I just checked and the unit that is cooling only and the heat pump units have the same SEER rating for cooling so I don't see a down side. The Hyper unit is a step up from both of them. Thanks again.

[tummyman]

Just to be sure, you may want to call NHEC in advance and make sure the unit you are installing will qualify for the rebate.

[DesertDweller]

Originally Posted by tummyman

Just to be sure, you may want to call NHEC in advance and make sure the unit you are installing will qualify for the rebate.

Not a bad idea. I do have the Mitsubishi spec sheets which shows it meets the requirements and also the proposal states it qualifies as well.

[ishoot308]

Originally Posted by SteveO123

We decided on the Mitsu heat pumps for the AC. We opted for the ultra efficient hyper heat pumps and wow are we happy after our first winter. Heating and cooling for the price of AC alone. It is the proverbial no braina as we say up heayah...

I think you made a smart decision to get the "Hyper" Heat Pumps and wish I had!

I occasionally use my camp during the winter months for ice fishing, snowmobiling, etc, etc. It would be nice to have that extra efficient heat even in sub zero temps. Mine heat efficiently down to around 30 degrees or so.

While I do have other heat sources which keep the home quite comfortable, the small additional cost for the ultra efficient Hyper pumps is well worth the money in my opinion.

Nice move!

Dan

[Sunbeam lodge]

Originally Posted by SteveO123

We decided on the Mitsu heat pumps for the AC. We opted for the ultra efficient hyper heat pumps and wow are we happy after our first winter. Heating and cooling for the price of AC alone. It is the proverbial no braina we say up heayah...

I currently heat with an oil furnace but have 3 blowers that are very noisy. I am considering the heat pump system and wonder if these units are very noisy.
Also does any one have a contact name at Home
Products that they could recommend?

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Sunbeam lodge

I currently heat with an oil furnace but have 3 blowers that are very noisy. I am considering the heat pump system and wonder if these units are very noisy.
Also does any one have a contact name at Home
Products that they could recommend?

These Mitsubishi units are very quiet. They should have a demo unit that they can turn on.

Everyone at the store has been very good to work with.

[DRH]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

These Mitsubishi units are very quiet. They should have a demo unit that they can turn on.

Everyone at the store has been very good to work with.

Slickcraft is correct, the units are amazingly quiet ... both the inside and outside units.

I believe the owner of Home Energy Products is Steve Gorse. That's the person we initially made contact with. He came to our house with an associate and took room measurements, then he discussed the entire system, installation, etc. before we signed the contract.

[ishoot308]

DRH is correct, Steve Gorse is the guy you want to speak with.

Good luck!

Dan

[SteveO123]

So quiet... We have them in our bedrooms. There's a soft whoosh of air moving but not really a any mechanical noise to speak of.

S