Canoe Suggestions?

[DC Pointer]

I was wondering if some folks could help. I am in the market for a canoe or row boat. My little girl (5 years old) loves to be on the water with her daddy! We are on the Jetski and Formula all summer zipping around, but I want to give her more of a natural experience on the water this year. Trouble is I have never owned a watercraft without an engine! This summer i'd like to change that. What type of canoe should we buy? Is a canoe the right decision? Maybe just a plain old row boat? We have a place in a quiet cove and would be using it there. Safety is number one concern here. Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

[jmen24]

DC, Couple of questions that will aid in the help.

Are you familar with paddling a canoe at all?

What I mean is this, when taking your daughter out on the water it will just be you paddling so some knowledge of a couple of strokes will make your life easier and YOU will also have fun and not feel like you are at the gym. Just as a picture, when you see folks paddling a canoe that are constantly passing the paddle back and forth from port to starboard in order to stay straight, they are not paddling correctly. If you choose to go the canoe avenue, send me a PM, I can give some in water or out of water instruction to keep it fun for you and allow you to enjoy your daughter while on a paddle, without worrying about the boat.

If most of you paddling will be on lakes or big flat water (merrimack size rivers) you will want a canoe with zero to minimal rocker. The boat will sit flatter in the water, be less menueverable (it will still turn on a dime), but is super stable. You will want a boat that sits flat above the water line and low in the water (to a point), the chance of paddling in the wind is a good one. The taller the bow and stern on the canoe, the more wind it will catch and be harder to maintain a straight course. This problem can be overcome, so if you are more worried above waves than I have a solution for that. You paddle the boat with a nose away from the wind attitude, basically every stroke you take pushes the nose toward the wind and then the wind pushes it back, very easy on the effort scale.

Based on the two main concerns above I would suggest two different boats by Old Town. One more cost effective than the other, similar style, super stable and virtually indestructable.

The first is the Discovery 158 or 169, both reasonable sizes to paddle solo and will fit three for a family adventure. This is the toughest boat old town makes and one of the easiest to paddle. This boat is heavy and is very basic as far as seating and contruction goes, it keeps the cost down. If you do not know what a better boat paddles like, you will get years of enjoyment out of it, if you get hooked and want more than just the flat water, you will outgrow this boats capabilities. It paddles fine for light recreation (i.e. what you describe), plus if you do outgrow it, you can never have to many canoes.

The second is the Tripper 172, this is a super stable boat that sits high in the water, it is rated for 1500lbs and the gunwales are about 8" above the surface of the water when unloaded. More money than the discovery, but is more comfortable to paddle, will not handle heavy abuse on rocks and sticks.

I have paddled the tripper 172 as well as the XL (not reccomended at all, way more boat than what you are needing) on week long camping trips in Maine many times, as well as around in NH on the rivers. This boat handles the same fully loaded with a weeks worth of food and gear as it does with two people. Slightly slower response but on flat water you will not have an issue. I have soloed it, poled it, tandem, works well with all disiplines.

There are other brands that are in the same range as these, but I would recommend staying between 16'-18'. Smaller boats get really tight and anything over 18' is in guiding range, you really have to know how to paddle one to get it where you want to go.

Been paddling for 21 years now, solo paddled my first time every in canoe when I was 9 in a Mad River 14 with an experienced friend of the family and have not looked back since, truely love the sound of a canoe cutting the water. My daughter went on her first 4 day camping/paddle excursion when she was 2 1/2 and my son will go this year at 2. You will want to get your daughter a wooden youth paddle, as she will love to learn and "help out". All kinds of different paddles for you depending on what feels good in your grip, can help with that too, if you go this route.

Anyway, anymore questions feel free to ask. I do not know much about rowboats so I am sure someone else can fill you in and you can weigh it out.

Jmen24

[Slickcraft]

I agree with jmen 24 as to size and quality of canoe. We have taken our Old Town Tripper down the St John and Allagash in Maine, paddled numerous lakes and many classII/III river runs. It is stable and rugged. After 22 years of beatings it is still ready to go. The problem that I see for a novice solo paddler is that the boat is rather heavy.

The Discovery series boats would be a little easier to handle solo. Now about those instructions: do it. Some basic paddling instruction will make the difference between having fun and utter frustration real quick not to mention safety. For many years we have watched canoes go by our island camp and we have seen only one person who had a clue as how to paddle. It is not hard; someone just has to show you.

Safety: Everyone in the canoe to wear a pfd at all times. The concept of having the pfd lying on the floor is useless if you go over. By the time you recover your wits the canoe and pfd will have floated away in the breeze. Even if you manage to grab it, putting one on while flailing in cold water is chancy.

You should go to the New England Paddlesports Show 2010 at the UNH field house April 9-11. You can see all the boats/gear and scope out instruction.
http://www.ktpevents.com/interior.php/pid/3

[gf2020]

Good information above. I have been paddling New England waters for 30 years.

I own an Old Town Discovery 174 that I salvaged out of the East Branch of the Penobscot in 1990 and a Wenonah Rendezvous solo canoe.

Since you are going out with a child, you may want to consider one of the lighter materials so you can handle lifting the canoe by your self. The Old Town Discovery series boats weigh over 80 pounds. A similar boat from Wenonah in Kevlar will weigh half that, of course it will cost twice as much.

[Slickcraft]

gf2020 - We paddled the East Branch trip a long time ago with an AMC trip led by the Cushwa's. Nice trip and we did not leave a canoe in the raver. I also kayaked the West Branch in the early 90's but wimped out and walked around the Crib Works to the left.

Glass/kevlar boats are nice especially for solo. They are also expensive and not overly damage resistant.

[Slickcraft]

OK the tripper is at least 24 years old, here is a photo of us on the east branch trip in 1986.

[fatlazyless]

...not your typical paddle canoe...how to change any old 17' Grumman, Michicraft, Alumacraft, Sea Nymph, Old Town, Mad River, etc aluminum/fiberglass old used canoe into a new & improved rowing canoe with seats for one rower and/or two paddlers, plus a doggie or two....www.rowingrigs.com.....it changes the personality of a canoe by leaps and bounds..for a canoe the Scout Rig model is best because it is the lightest, costs $495. & shipping from Massachusetts, and is designed to fit into a canoe by attaching to the gunnels...the overall shape and design of a canoe makes it a natural as a rower....can honestly go through approximately 18" Lake Winnipesaukee boat wakes without taking on any water when rowed by one person seated in the middle, plus the rowing rig is attached with just four screw clamps so it can always be removed....

How to turn that old canoe into a dynamic rowing machine, lose the fat, and totally impress both the wife & girlfriend!

These Scout rowing rigs never-ever seem to show up, selling for less, in the classified ads, anywhere. As far as I know, no other maker besides Piantedosi in West Acton, Mass. makes this style product.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by gf2020

Good information above. I have been paddling New England waters for 30 years.

I own an Old Town Discovery 174 that I salvaged out of the East Branch of the Penobscot in 1990 and a Wenonah Rendezvous solo canoe.

Since you are going out with a child, you may want to consider one of the lighter materials so you can handle lifting the canoe by your self. The Old Town Discovery series boats weigh over 80 pounds. A similar boat from Wenonah in Kevlar will weigh half that, of course it will cost twice as much.

I still cannot get over how light those kevlars are. For a beginning paddler, that may not be the best boat, although I was trusted with that Mad River at 9, so I guess it is all relative.

Another option is one of the brands of wheels that you can mount below the boat, if you are taking off from your own yard, then a good option.

The 80 pound weight is not overly bad, just keep the idea of yoking it going, once you start to think about getting it on your shoulders you need to stay with that thought, stopping halfway hurts and there is nothing worse than having to drop a brand new boat on the ground to protect a shoulder or a back.

My favorite paddle in Maine is the St. Croix, Vanceboro to Grand Falls. We have started it on Spendik before, but that lake is a dog in a head wind, so lately we skip it. Taking it easy this year and heading up to Lobster Lake, we will day trip up the Penob for those that want to go in our group.

Slick, being that I am just really getting going in big whitewater, I do not blame you for walking the cribworks, no room for error, what fun it would have been though.

[Airedale1]

Instead of a canoe, you might want to consider a two-seater kayak like this Old Town Loon.



It is easier to paddle and steer than a canoe. Just pick your spots and times (think glassy conditions) out on the big lake and you will both love it.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Airedale1

Instead of a canoe, you might want to consider a two-seater kayak like this Old Town Loon.



It is easier to paddle and steer than a canoe. Just pick your spots and times (think glassy conditions) out on the big lake and you will both love it.

I have to respectfully disagree.

Having paddled one of those last year, so much more uncomfortable to paddle than a canoe. Far less stable, no way to adjust weight in the boat without disrupting the harmony, sitting lower in the water makes for a sore back and would not track a line if it was tied to a cable.

I would not recommend one of these boats over a canoe, especially if you want your daughter to enjoy boating and not practice bailing after a dump.

Waiting on perfect conditions to boat, may result in a lot of waiting, if the conditions have to be perfect, that should be a tell that it is not a good boat to start with.

By the way, I am absolutely loving your photos of the wildlife. Don't feel like I am dumping on your suggestion (please) but I have a personal contact at Old Town Canoe, these boats were designed and marketed toward a specific target group and DC is not it, I will not elaborate more, some trust is needed on this one.

[Airedale1]

Originally Posted by jmen24

I have to respectfully disagree.

Having paddled one of those last year, so much more uncomfortable to paddle than a canoe. Far less stable, no way to adjust weight in the boat without disrupting the harmony, sitting lower in the water makes for a sore back and would not track a line if it was tied to a cable.

I would not recommend one of these boats over a canoe, especially if you want your daughter to enjoy boating and not practice bailing after a dump.

Waiting on perfect conditions to boat, may result in a lot of waiting, if the conditions have to be perfect, that should be a tell that it is not a good boat to start with.

By the way, I am absolutely loving your photos of the wildlife. Don't feel like I am dumping on your suggestion (please) but I have a personal contact at Old Town Canoe, these boats were designed and marketed toward a specific target group and DC is not it, I will not elaborate more, some trust is needed on this one.

My personal experience with kayak vs. canoe is the opposite of yours. Hopefully somebody on here besides myself that has experience with the Loon will chime in. The Loon is known for its stability and is a favorite with photographers and fishermen.

I own an Old Town Tripper which is a 17 foot canoe and it is nowhere near as comfortable for me as my 16' Old Town Adventure XL Kayak.

I mean how could it be? In the canoe I am sitting on a molded plastic seat with zero back support and no foot support. See image below.



Compared to my kayak (pictured below) which has a padded adjustable hi-back seat with lumbar and adjustable foot supports; my canoe is nowhere near as comfortable.



Also the raised bow and stearn of the canoe catches the wind and it makes it very hard to track a straight line. My kayak without a skeg or rudder track way better than my canoe and unlike the canoe paddling is effortless.

To the OP the best advice I can give you is demo both and see for yourself.

Since you are in Wolfeboro, check out Wild Meadow Canoes and Kayaks http://www.wildmeadowcanoes.com/ which has been owned and operated by the Whalen family for over 20 years. Tom and Sally are nice folks they will steer you straight.

[Newbiesaukee]

I am really not an expert but have had an Old Town Canoe, and single and tandem "sit in" recreational kayaks which I have used only on the Lake. I agree with Airdale, the kayaks, far and away, are easier to handle, felt more stable and are way more comfortable. I use my kayaks frequently, only my guests have used the canoe in the past two years.

They are quite different and a water test would seem the thing to do. Another important factor is where and how do you plan to use them.

[NoRegrets]

I have both an oldtown canoe and kayak. I absolutely love both of them and would not want to make a choice on which is better. For a long day of paddeling in the canoe we found it was tiring on the back so I purchased 2 cane seats ( http://store.oldtowncanoe.com/produc...Cane_Seat_Back ). With a life vest for padding they are very comfortable. The kayak seat and leg posts are also very easy to adjust for size and comfort. My kayak has a large opening so my legs are not constricted under much of the top. My little buddy Murphy (15 LB dog) loves the open space and rides everywhere with me.

Click on the picture and enlarge it to see one cool pup!

I tried many canoes and the only thing I noticed is many of the advanced plastic ones do not have a center keel and are less stable. A fiberglass canoe has a keel that lets it track better and not drift as much in cross winds. Our canoe is only 12 feet long (plenty for a cooler, 2 paddlers, and Murphy.

[Airedale1]

Originally Posted by NoRegrets

I have both an oldtown canoe and kayak. I absolutely love both of them and would not want to make a choice on which is better. For a long day of paddeling in the canoe we found it was tiring on the back so I purchased 2 cane seats ( http://store.oldtowncanoe.com/produc...Cane_Seat_Back ). With a life vest for padding they are very comfortable. The kayak seat and leg posts are also very easy to adjust for size and comfort. My kayak has a large opening so my legs are not constricted under much of the top. My little buddy Murphy (15 LB dog) loves the open space and rides everywhere with me.

I tried many canoes and the only thing I noticed is many of the advanced plastic ones do not have a center keel and are less stable. A fiberglass canoe has a keel that lets it track better and not drift as much in cross winds. Our canoe is only 12 feet long (plenty for a cooler, 2 paddlers, and Murphy.

Wonderful photo, that really made me smile. Thank you.

[jmen24]

I do not disagree that a kayak is more agile than a canoe to a point, I can pole my canoe up stream in a rip, 90 degrees to a rip, anywhere I want to go.I understand not everyone is interested in learning all they can about boat handling skills so I will leave it at that, plus poling is a standing activity. But we need to examine the OP's original statement and how the boat will be used. And yes the seats are far more comfy, what with the padding and back support. But the removable back cane web seats in my tripper are just as a comfy and if the back needs a rest the knee supports get some use.

The main reason the loon does not apply to the OP's situation.

In a single person kayak, you are centered or slightly aft within the length of the boat. This is for weight distribution and proper balance fore and aft of the boat. To far back and it will steer wildly, with little control. To far forward and the same situation only its the rear of the boat that is causing the issues.

In a Loon you are forward or aft of the central balance point of the boat, with no way to change this unless you sit out of the one of the seats. The idea is to get out on the water with his daughter, so after moving into the center section of the boat, where is his daughter going to sit. With a closed bow and stern, the space becomes very limited, granted he will gain some room when balancing her weight, but we are talking inches in comparing a child against an adult.

I am not an anti kayak open boater, if you read back in some of my posts, I kayaked the Dead River last summer at 2,800cfs, it was one of the most exciting experiences of my life. I have access to any type of boat I want, when I want it and have paddled many different canoes and kayaks, some better than others.

Everyone's experiences are different as well as needs, for a single photographer or fisherman, I would not recommend a tripper, it is more boat than what is needed, a Camper would be a better fit for mostly solo as well as a Mad River Freedom solo.

http://www.maineguiding.com/index.html Most of the photos on this site are of our trips over the years, you will see more of my wife and daughter in these than me (a good thing) The two shots of the XL running the rapids (Little Falls and Canous on the Croix), my wife in bow, with another guiding friend Dwayne at stern, I was solo this trip until the last day when Dwayne heading off early with his two kids. Dan is my wife's uncle. Not plugging the site or service, but most of my photos of these trips are 35mm and not electronic, just entered the digital age this winter.

[trfour]

In todays Citizen; http://citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...897/-1/CITIZEN



Terry
________________________________

[jmen24]

DC Pointer, how has the search been going?

We have some really great weather coming up. Hope you and your daughter are having fun exploring together, if you have already made a selection.

[DC Pointer]

Hi Everyone,
This information has been so helpful. Thank you all very, very much for taking the time to explain. You have helped me narrow my search. We are going to demo a few Old Town canoes tomorrow (with a couple hours of proper instruction) and hopefully make a decision by then.

[fatlazyless]

While a canoe definately seems to have less paddle-ability and less comfort than a kayak, a canoe has plenty of row-ability when you add a center mount rowing seat like one from www.rowingrigs.com. The overall shape of a canoe works pretty good for rowing the Winnipesaukee choppy waters, and at much, much less cost than a low-to-the-water Alden or similarly designed rowing skull.

About 20-30-40(?) years ago, there was a rowing rig made from 1" tubular steel that attached to a canoe's gunnels with four screws, called an A-Row-Bic, and it had a sliding seat with two oar lock outriggers, which apparently is no longer in business and not found even on Google or Craigslist, so that makes it very long gone! I have one which works very good. It's the type of design that could be made in someone's New Hampshire home workshop by Uncle Buck. Probably, if Wal-Mart sold one today, it would probably sell for approximately $59.94, as opposed to the $495 Scout Rig in the link above, and the out-of-business A-Row-Bic was a similar design.

Go to craigslist-NH-for sale-boats, enter canoe into the search, and you get over 100 hits dated April 10 to April 24, so right now is probably just about the best NH used canoe buyers market ever, ever. Could be that everyone has switched to a kayak or something, and that old Grumman, Alumacraft, Mad River or Old Town canoe has been sitting around unused for years and people just want them gone.

Who knows, maybe the Canoe Restaurant wants to fill one up with dirt and plant some canoe-flowers next to their parking lot or something? Like, what else do people do with all these all old, dirt cheap canoes today?

[Lucky1]

We see many boats on the water and used to see many canoes. Now we see mostly kayaks. That must say something? Our neighbors actually got two kayaks that seemed to have a spot in the front where a grandchild could sit. I think a child sat facing the grandparent. Not sure it was an actual seat. They found those kayaks at a very reasonable price on that strip of road between where 104 stops at Rte 3 in Meredith and Route 25 that goes up through Center Harbor. The ones they got on that Rte 3 area were unusual so that is why I mention getting something from a place not near Wolfeboro. The oldest boy now can kayak on his own.
Wilderness kayaks are very non tippy and easy to paddle. My favorites are Pungos but I am not sure if that make is still available? Both seem similar. They really go along very nicely. Would be lost without some here. Think longer rather than shorter 12 or 14 feet. Those five year olds grow pretty fast! Soon she will be out on the water with her teenage friends. Enjoy being her Dad. Dad and daughter time is so valuable!!

[Shore Driver]

Originally Posted by Slickcraft

OK the tripper is at least 14 years old, here is a photo of us on the east branch trip in 1986.

I love this picture! By East Branch, do you mean the Pemi?

[Slickcraft]

Originally Posted by Shore Driver

I love this picture! By East Branch, do you mean the Pemi?

No, East branch of the Penobscot.

I have paddled the Pemi East branch but in whitewater boats, solo open canoe and kayak.

[jmen24]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

We see many boats on the water and used to see many canoes. Now we see mostly kayaks. That must say something? Our neighbors actually got two kayaks that seemed to have a spot in the front where a grandchild could sit. I think a child sat facing the grandparent. Not sure it was an actual seat. They found those kayaks at a very reasonable price on that strip of road between where 104 stops at Rte 3 in Meredith and Route 25 that goes up through Center Harbor. The ones they got on that Rte 3 area were unusual so that is why I mention getting something from a place not near Wolfeboro. The oldest boy now can kayak on his own.
Wilderness kayaks are very non tippy and easy to paddle. My favorites are Pungos but I am not sure if that make is still available? Both seem similar. They really go along very nicely. Would be lost without some here. Think longer rather than shorter 12 or 14 feet. Those five year olds grow pretty fast! Soon she will be out on the water with her teenage friends. Enjoy being her Dad. Dad and daughter time is so valuable!!

Lucky1, I have noticed a big swing from canoes to kayaks in the last 10 years. Most folks I have talked to say they went with kayaks as they are easier to paddle. And if you do not know how to properly paddle a canoe, I can fully understand that statement. As long as everyone is enjoying themselves, its all good.

I have also noticed a severe lack of a properly outfitted paddle store in the area. Paddles that are one piece wood have to be ordered, can't find a pole around here to save your life, rescue gear is lacking, no York packs, nothing. But you can select from at least 50 different kayaks at about any store and usually 10 canoes. Hopefully there will be some more options in the area, soon enough.