Jet Ski Explodes- Moultonborough

VitaBene · 08-19-2013, 05:36 AM

I was sitting on the beach and heard a loud explosion. It sounded like a transformer exploding or decent size firework (except for the 145 PM time).

Turns out it was a jet ski. Best of luck to the riders in their recovery!

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...mment-19900515

brk-lnt · 08-19-2013, 05:58 AM

Had that happen to me once. Fortunately I wasn't on it, but was walking it out to deeper waters and went to start it to idle along. Loud boom, and bits of hot fiberglass embedded in my arms. The seat went about 20ft in the air (this was a '92-era Waverunner).

The funny thing was, we had tons of modified 'skis, this was the only stock one on the beach, and it was the one that blew up.

tis · 08-19-2013, 06:29 AM

Oh my gosh, Vita! You were there??? What a shame! ( about the accident)

Dave R · 08-19-2013, 06:54 AM

Do PWCs have bilge blowers? Seems like that one could have used one... Hope the people are OK.

jrc · 08-19-2013, 07:24 AM

Most PWC are exempt from the bilge blower rules.

Hope no one was hurt.

PaugusBayFireFighter · 08-19-2013, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrc

Most PWC are exempt from the bilge blower rules.

Hope no one was hurt.

I believe the manufacturer says you should do a safety check list before starting and driving your PWC, and that list includes removing the seat to exhaust any trapped gas fumes. I check the oil every couple of days but admit I never "vent" my PWCs before a ride.

chipj29 · 08-19-2013, 07:54 AM

They had pictures on the WMUR news last night. The explosion blew the top half right off the hull, at the seam. I have seen pics of explosions before, but nothing like this. I would say that the riders were lucky. An explosion of that magnitude could have been a lot worse.

RailroadJoe · 08-19-2013, 08:24 AM

And, they will be suing who? After all, no more common sense and we are no longer responsible for our own actions.

Lakesrider · 08-19-2013, 11:10 AM

It amazes me the number of times I have seen people hop on one and start it right up. Even after it has been sitting in the hot sun for hours. One little leak or errant fill up and the fumes can combust like that. A minute of extra care and that probably would not have happened. However we will have to see what the Marine Patrol says. I am glad the injuries were not as serious as they could have been. Poor little girl will be terrified of those Jet ski things, now for ever....

Shreddy · 08-19-2013, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakesrider

It amazes me the number of times I have seen people hop on one and start it right up. Even after it has been sitting in the hot sun for hours. One little leak or errant fill up and the fumes can combust like that. A minute of extra care and that probably would not have happened. However we will have to see what the Marine Patrol says. I am glad the injuries were not as serious as they could have been. Poor little girl will be terrified of those Jet ski things, now for ever....

Doesn't amaze me at all. I do it all the time with a reasonable expectation that nothing will happen. This is obviously an isolated incident as this rarely happens. Anything could have happened, there's no facts out there so I don't think it's worth speculating that a minute of extra care would have stopped this. For all we know the guy might have checked his jet ski ten times over beforehand and it still happened.

On the positive side, it's nice to know they're not seriously injured. I was on my porch reading and knew something blew up. Extremely loud and was no M-80 sound.

dave603 · 08-19-2013, 06:22 PM

I was always taught to start the blower on my boat before starting for at least 5 minutes. ( by an Navy Chief Bosun, who you better listen to )
I tow my boat up usually, so I gas up off lake. Often just before I launch.
Recently while waiting for a space at the launch ramp, which was taking quite awhile, someone came up to me and said "Do you know your blower is running", like it was unheard of to him.

How often do you run the blower before start, for me it's still going to be always.

boat_guy64 · 08-19-2013, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

And, they will be suing who? After all, no more common sense and we are no longer responsible for our own actions.

Comments like this just aren't needed. How do you know that anyone did anything irresponsible. Do you check under the seat every time you start your PWC? Even if it is the 20th time you started it that day??? I doubt it and I doubt that anyone does.

Sounds like a terrible accident and I hope that everyone gets well fast.

Dave R · 08-19-2013, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave603

I was always taught to start the blower on my boat before starting for at least 5 minutes. ( by an Navy Chief Bosun, who you better listen to )
I tow my boat up usually, so I gas up off lake. Often just before I launch.
Recently while waiting for a space at the launch ramp, which was taking quite awhile, someone came up to me and said "Do you know your blower is running", like it was unheard of to him.

How often do you run the blower before start, for me it's still going to be always.

Always as well, but I don't do it for a specific amount of time. Instead, I put my nose right in the output airflow and sniff for gas fumes. Once I know there are no fumes, I know I'm safe to start the engine.

Newbiesaukee · 08-19-2013, 07:50 PM

I do it 4-5 min each time. I was surprised at the Center Harbor Docks today by a guy in a beautiful Formula who came with a bunch of teens, got on the boat and started right up. I guess it is possible he just stopped but that did not appear to be the case.

ITD · 08-19-2013, 08:21 PM

Maintenance is important, I have two Sea doos, no blower on either, I have also never, and I mean never had the smell of gasoline in either one. I would guess that either a fuel leak or a battery problem caused this. I'm curious as to how old this pwc was and if it was a maintenance issue or a defect. Pound for pound gasoline has more energy (bigger boom potential) than TNT, not something to mess with.....

I also have a boat, and use the blower every time. But I have never smelled gas in the engine compartment of my boat either. IF YOU SMELL GAS IN YOUR ENGINE COMPARTMENT, SOMETHING IS WRONG AND SHOULD BE FIXED IMMEDIATELY.....

RailroadJoe · 08-19-2013, 08:27 PM

Boat guy64
Just stating what happens when any lawyer gets involved. I hate to see any one hurt do to any reason, but the type of lawyers now in our judical system seem to be more interested in their cut and not the fact that someone was injured.

songkrai · 08-20-2013, 05:48 AM

MOULTONBOROUGH, N.H. (AP) — A man and his 8-year-old passenger have suffered injuries after their jet ski exploded and they were thrown into Lake Winnipesaukee.

"The state Marine Patrol says 56-year-old Steven Mitton of Andover, Mass., suffered a broken pelvis in the accident around 1:45 p.m. Sunday. His passenger suffered a cut on her head. They were taken to a local hospital for treatment.

The Marine Patrol says the explosion occurred when Mitton attempted to start his vessel.

WMUR-TV reports (bit.ly/16VhkrH) the girl is Mitton’s niece and that they were in a jet ski at the lake.

‘‘It was very loud. I say it sounded like a stick of dynamite exploding,’’ said Tom Casale, of the Deepwood Lodge Homeowners Association, told WMUR.

The accident is being investigated."

LINK

SAMIAM · 08-20-2013, 07:31 AM

Must have been a malfunction.....jet ski's are not designed to be vented.....same as outboard engines.
"Nothing to see here" no lawyers needed.

chipj29 · 08-20-2013, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITD

Maintenance is important, I have two Sea doos, no blower on either, I have also never, and I mean never had the smell of gasoline in either one. I would guess that either a fuel leak or a battery problem caused this. I'm curious as to how old this pwc was and if it was a maintenance issue or a defect. Pound for pound gasoline has more energy (bigger boom potential) than TNT, not something to mess with.....

I also have a boat, and use the blower every time. But I have never smelled gas in the engine compartment of my boat either. IF YOU SMELL GAS IN YOUR ENGINE COMPARTMENT, SOMETHING IS WRONG AND SHOULD BE FIXED IMMEDIATELY.....

From the pics I saw, looked to be a 98 or 99 Sea Doo GSX (2-stroke).

Orion · 08-20-2013, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAMIAM

Must have been a malfunction.....jet ski's are not designed to be vented.....same as outboard engines.
"Nothing to see here" no lawyers needed.

Um, not quite. An outboard hangs over the water and has a very small vented airspace. A jet ski is a hull that can contain low-lying fumes. But, yes, must've been a fuel leak somewhere.

Dave M · 08-21-2013, 07:36 AM

I'm not electrcal but I always wondered since the blower is an electrical device, why wouldn't that cause an explosion if there were fumes in engine compactment. Could be a faulty blower. I also run the fan but a lot of times I also lift the cover to the the compartment. I also do this before anybody gets in the boat.

Dave M

upthesaukee · 08-21-2013, 08:45 AM

I like to open the cover and stick my head down into the compartment and take a couple of good sniffs...I too have often wondered what would happen if there was a problem with the blower and a spark occurred.

I leave the cover open while I start the engine...if anything happens, at least the blast has an easy way to get out of the compartment, ie the path of least resistance.

Dave R · 08-21-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave M

I'm not electrcal but I always wondered since the blower is an electrical device, why wouldn't that cause an explosion if there were fumes in engine compactment. Could be a faulty blower. I also run the fan but a lot of times I also lift the cover to the the compartment. I also do this before anybody gets in the boat.

Dave M

The blower motors are ignition protected per SAE J1171 standard and not likely to suffer any sort of arcing fault like you'd get with a loose battery or starter connection (I imagine those kinds of faults cause more explosions than a failure of spark shielding on any J1171 rated device). As anyone that's ever messed around with a two stroke engine's combustion chamber design will tell you, it's pretty easy to shield a spark and prevent ignition...

That said, the blower motors that I have looked at appear to have brush motors (they certainly do not advertise that they are brushless). With the huge selection of brushless DC motors on the market, I cannot imagine why they don't use them, I cannot think of a better application for a brushless motor.

Denny Crane · 08-22-2013, 06:35 AM

I know on a lot of sea doos, if not all, in order to open the engine compartment seat the seat for the third rider must come off first, then the main seat. If they made it easier with one click to open the main seat more people would open it up and air it out. Pain in the neck or not, I'm going to do it now. I hope. DC

chipj29 · 08-22-2013, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Crane

I know on a lot of sea doos, if not all, in order to open the engine compartment seat the seat for the third rider must come off first, then the main seat. If they made it easier with one click to open the main seat more people would open it up and air it out. Pain in the neck or not, I'm going to do it now. I hope. DC

You are correct, but newer Sea Doos come with a single seat, even on the 3-seaters.

LIforrelaxin · 08-22-2013, 08:46 AM

I personally periodically take the seat off my seadoo and inspect the compartment. Looking for fume odor etc. I don't do it every time but at least once a weekend, and always after I fill up.....

RumGuy · 08-23-2013, 07:58 AM

It's not a bad idea to take a look under the engine cover prior to heading out regardless. Check the oil, look at what's floating in the bilge, look for anything unusual. I have never found anything different in a positive way, like a lost $20 for example, but I have noticed things that have kept me from having a bad day on the Lake. Only few things can cause a bad day on the Lake, and (to me anyway) a boat can be the fastest way to one.

RumGuy · 08-23-2013, 08:02 AM

I didn't intend for my previous post to sound negative, as the boat has actually given me uncountable great times out there. It's like your kids: a whole lot of happy, but every now and again........

SigSauer · 08-23-2013, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

And, they will be suing who? After all, no more common sense and we are no longer responsible for our own actions.

The PWC was just recently repaired by Irwin marine, hence the reason the WMUR article references that Marine Patrol will be investigating the situation. Marine Patrol confiscated the PWC for evidence.

Someone that feels the need to comment negatively without knowing any details of the situation, clearly should be monitoring their own actions.

RailroadJoe · 08-23-2013, 09:04 AM

Sig S Actually I have found that many of our lawyer friends (?) have a tendancy to try and find any way to make money. These are the ones that help give lawyers a bad name.

BroadHopper · 08-23-2013, 11:54 AM

I have people that say 'Don't trust lawyers', and I have people say 'Don't trust accountants or doctors'. It all depends on who you know. There are bad professionals weaseling out a future for themselves and there are great professionals who's only concern is your welfare. So don't generalized professionals.

I have a family lawyer who work for a large firm, whom I trust and even though he is expensive, in the long run he is far cheaper than a small office lawyer who charges a third of his price.

dave603 · 08-23-2013, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I have people that say 'Don't trust lawyers', and I have people say 'Don't trust accountants or doctors'. It all depends on who you know. There are bad professionals weaseling out a future for themselves and there are great professionals who's only concern is your welfare. So don't generalized professionals.

I have a family lawyer who work for a large firm, whom I trust and even though he is expensive, in the long run he is far cheaper than a small office lawyer who charges a third of his price.

Same as good cops and bad cops, every job has them.

hig · 08-23-2013, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RailroadJoe

Sig S Actually I have found that many of our lawyer friends (?) have a tendancy to try and find any way to make money. These are the ones that help give lawyers a bad name.

I am have tendency to try and find a way to make money. Isn't that to be encouraged over the alternative?

Dave R · 08-23-2013, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RumGuy

It's not a bad idea to take a look under the engine cover prior to heading out regardless. Check the oil, look at what's floating in the bilge, look for anything unusual. I have never found anything different in a positive way, like a lost $20 for example, but I have noticed things that have kept me from having a bad day on the Lake. Only few things can cause a bad day on the Lake, and (to me anyway) a boat can be the fastest way to one.

I found a Lawyer in the bilge one time.

fpartri497 · 08-23-2013, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipj29

You are correct, but newer Sea Doos come with a single seat, even on the 3-seaters.

yes a single seat and its not hinged either. and its heavy and awkward to lift off while its in the water.

Shreddy · 08-24-2013, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadHopper

I have people that say 'Don't trust lawyers', and I have people say 'Don't trust accountants or doctors'. It all depends on who you know. There are bad professionals weaseling out a future for themselves and there are great professionals who's only concern is your welfare. So don't generalized professionals.

I have a family lawyer who work for a large firm, whom I trust and even though he is expensive, in the long run he is far cheaper than a small office lawyer who charges a third of his price.

Guess nobody is going to want to trust me as I fall under one of those categories and am in process of making it two

08-19-2013, 05:36 AM	#1
VitaBene Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 3,576 Thanks: 1,611 Thanked 1,632 Times in 839 Posts	Jet Ski Explodes- Moultonborough I was sitting on the beach and heard a loud explosion. It sounded like a transformer exploding or decent size firework (except for the 145 PM time). Turns out it was a jet ski. Best of luck to the riders in their recovery! http://www.boston.com/news/local/new...mment-19900515

08-19-2013, 05:58 AM	#2
brk-lnt Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: South Down Shores Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 544 Thanked 570 Times in 335 Posts	Had that happen to me once. Fortunately I wasn't on it, but was walking it out to deeper waters and went to start it to idle along. Loud boom, and bits of hot fiberglass embedded in my arms. The seat went about 20ft in the air (this was a '92-era Waverunner). The funny thing was, we had tons of modified 'skis, this was the only stock one on the beach, and it was the one that blew up. __________________ [insert witty phrase here]

08-19-2013, 07:54 AM	#7
chipj29 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bow Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 521 Thanked 308 Times in 162 Posts	They had pictures on the WMUR news last night. The explosion blew the top half right off the hull, at the seam. I have seen pics of explosions before, but nothing like this. I would say that the riders were lucky. An explosion of that magnitude could have been a lot worse. __________________ Getting ready for winter!

08-19-2013, 06:22 PM	#11
dave603 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Nashua/Winnisquam Posts: 282 Thanks: 106 Thanked 96 Times in 49 Posts	This brings up a question. I was always taught to start the blower on my boat before starting for at least 5 minutes. ( by an Navy Chief Bosun, who you better listen to ) I tow my boat up usually, so I gas up off lake. Often just before I launch. Recently while waiting for a space at the launch ramp, which was taking quite awhile, someone came up to me and said "Do you know your blower is running", like it was unheard of to him. How often do you run the blower before start, for me it's still going to be always.

08-19-2013, 07:50 PM	#14
Newbiesaukee Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Coral Gables, winter; Long Island, summer Posts: 1,353 Thanks: 946 Thanked 573 Times in 298 Posts	I do it 4-5 min each time. I was surprised at the Center Harbor Docks today by a guy in a beautiful Formula who came with a bunch of teens, got on the boat and started right up. I guess it is possible he just stopped but that did not appear to be the case. __________________ "You're only young once, but you can be immature forever."

08-19-2013, 06:29 AM	#3
tis Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,709 Thanks: 751 Thanked 1,455 Times in 1,012 Posts	Oh my gosh, Vita! You were there??? What a shame! ( about the accident)

08-19-2013, 06:54 AM	#4
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,984 Thanks: 246 Thanked 743 Times in 443 Posts	Do PWCs have bilge blowers? Seems like that one could have used one... Hope the people are OK.

08-19-2013, 07:24 AM	#5
jrc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NH Posts: 2,689 Thanks: 33 Thanked 439 Times in 249 Posts	Most PWC are exempt from the bilge blower rules. Hope no one was hurt.

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08-19-2013, 08:24 AM	#8
RailroadJoe Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 620 Thanks: 259 Thanked 158 Times in 100 Posts	And, they will be suing who? After all, no more common sense and we are no longer responsible for our own actions.

08-19-2013, 11:10 AM	#9
Lakesrider Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 2,129 Thanks: 380 Thanked 1,016 Times in 345 Posts	It amazes me the number of times I have seen people hop on one and start it right up. Even after it has been sitting in the hot sun for hours. One little leak or errant fill up and the fumes can combust like that. A minute of extra care and that probably would not have happened. However we will have to see what the Marine Patrol says. I am glad the injuries were not as serious as they could have been. Poor little girl will be terrified of those Jet ski things, now for ever....

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08-19-2013, 08:21 PM	#15
ITD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonboro, NH Posts: 2,925 Thanks: 476 Thanked 691 Times in 387 Posts	Maintenance is important, I have two Sea doos, no blower on either, I have also never, and I mean never had the smell of gasoline in either one. I would guess that either a fuel leak or a battery problem caused this. I'm curious as to how old this pwc was and if it was a maintenance issue or a defect. Pound for pound gasoline has more energy (bigger boom potential) than TNT, not something to mess with..... I also have a boat, and use the blower every time. But I have never smelled gas in the engine compartment of my boat either. IF YOU SMELL GAS IN YOUR ENGINE COMPARTMENT, SOMETHING IS WRONG AND SHOULD BE FIXED IMMEDIATELY..... Last edited by ITD; 08-19-2013 at 08:24 PM. Reason: added last two sentences....

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LIforrelaxin (08-22-2013)

08-19-2013, 08:27 PM	#16
RailroadJoe Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 620 Thanks: 259 Thanked 158 Times in 100 Posts	Boat guy64 Just stating what happens when any lawyer gets involved. I hate to see any one hurt do to any reason, but the type of lawyers now in our judical system seem to be more interested in their cut and not the fact that someone was injured.

08-20-2013, 05:48 AM	#17
songkrai Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 732 Thanks: 35 Thanked 146 Times in 99 Posts	MOULTONBOROUGH, N.H. (AP) — A man and his 8-year-old passenger have suffered injuries after their jet ski exploded and they were thrown into Lake Winnipesaukee. "The state Marine Patrol says 56-year-old Steven Mitton of Andover, Mass., suffered a broken pelvis in the accident around 1:45 p.m. Sunday. His passenger suffered a cut on her head. They were taken to a local hospital for treatment. The Marine Patrol says the explosion occurred when Mitton attempted to start his vessel. WMUR-TV reports (bit.ly/16VhkrH) the girl is Mitton’s niece and that they were in a jet ski at the lake. ‘‘It was very loud. I say it sounded like a stick of dynamite exploding,’’ said Tom Casale, of the Deepwood Lodge Homeowners Association, told WMUR. The accident is being investigated." LINK

08-20-2013, 07:31 AM	#18
SAMIAM Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Moultonborough Posts: 2,893 Thanks: 334 Thanked 1,674 Times in 585 Posts	Must have been a malfunction.....jet ski's are not designed to be vented.....same as outboard engines. "Nothing to see here" no lawyers needed.

08-21-2013, 07:36 AM	#21
Dave M Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 395 Thanks: 4 Thanked 26 Times in 24 Posts	Just Wondering I'm not electrcal but I always wondered since the blower is an electrical device, why wouldn't that cause an explosion if there were fumes in engine compactment. Could be a faulty blower. I also run the fan but a lot of times I also lift the cover to the the compartment. I also do this before anybody gets in the boat. Dave M

08-21-2013, 08:45 AM	#22
upthesaukee Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alton Bay Posts: 5,597 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 2,454 Thanked 1,979 Times in 1,080 Posts	I too lift the engine cover... I like to open the cover and stick my head down into the compartment and take a couple of good sniffs...I too have often wondered what would happen if there was a problem with the blower and a spark occurred. I leave the cover open while I start the engine...if anything happens, at least the blast has an easy way to get out of the compartment, ie the path of least resistance. __________________ I Live Here... I am always UPTHESAUKEE !!!!

08-22-2013, 06:35 AM	#24
Denny Crane Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 99 Thanks: 28 Thanked 21 Times in 17 Posts	seadooo seats I know on a lot of sea doos, if not all, in order to open the engine compartment seat the seat for the third rider must come off first, then the main seat. If they made it easier with one click to open the main seat more people would open it up and air it out. Pain in the neck or not, I'm going to do it now. I hope. DC

08-22-2013, 08:46 AM	#26
LIforrelaxin Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Texas, Lake Ray Hubbard and NH, Long Island Winnipesaukee Posts: 2,871 Thanks: 1,037 Thanked 892 Times in 524 Posts	I personally periodically take the seat off my seadoo and inspect the compartment. Looking for fume odor etc. I don't do it every time but at least once a weekend, and always after I fill up..... __________________ Life is about how much time you can spend relaxing... I do it on an island that isn't really an island.....

08-23-2013, 07:58 AM	#27
RumGuy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Cape Cod / W.Alton Posts: 76 Thanks: 4 Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts	Look It's not a bad idea to take a look under the engine cover prior to heading out regardless. Check the oil, look at what's floating in the bilge, look for anything unusual. I have never found anything different in a positive way, like a lost $20 for example, but I have noticed things that have kept me from having a bad day on the Lake. Only few things can cause a bad day on the Lake, and (to me anyway) a boat can be the fastest way to one.

08-23-2013, 08:02 AM	#28
RumGuy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Cape Cod / W.Alton Posts: 76 Thanks: 4 Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts	Positive I didn't intend for my previous post to sound negative, as the boat has actually given me uncountable great times out there. It's like your kids: a whole lot of happy, but every now and again........

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08-23-2013, 09:04 AM	#30
RailroadJoe Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 620 Thanks: 259 Thanked 158 Times in 100 Posts	Sig S Actually I have found that many of our lawyer friends (?) have a tendancy to try and find any way to make money. These are the ones that help give lawyers a bad name.

08-23-2013, 11:54 AM	#31
BroadHopper Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Laconia NH Posts: 5,570 Thanks: 3,206 Thanked 1,101 Times in 793 Posts	Here we go again. I have people that say 'Don't trust lawyers', and I have people say 'Don't trust accountants or doctors'. It all depends on who you know. There are bad professionals weaseling out a future for themselves and there are great professionals who's only concern is your welfare. So don't generalized professionals. I have a family lawyer who work for a large firm, whom I trust and even though he is expensive, in the long run he is far cheaper than a small office lawyer who charges a third of his price. __________________ Someday may never be an actual day.