waterfront ownership

[John A. Birdsall]

I should know by now how to start a new thread, but I don't soooo....

We had a celebration this summer, our family has owned a cottage on the lake for 100 years, and we have enjoyed it, and most of our neighbors. We had always lived on the notion that the State of NH owned the lake up to high water mark,
We had a wall built on that premise in 1956, On Labor Day weekend we were told by Officer Skivise of the Alton Police Dept, that was not true, that in fact lake front property extends ten feet out into the lake. We tried to ask about the Deeds and surveys done, but apparerntly this does not matter.

Does anyone else have a feel for this. I think that the Alton Police Department is giving away state property.

Webmaster Note: This post has been moved to its own thread.

[upthesaukee]

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall

I should know by now how to start a new thread, but I don't soooo....

John, from the forum home page, where there is a list of all the different forums, select the forum in which you want to start a new post, and and the top of the list of threads in that forum, there is a link to "thread starter". click on that and you will have a blank posting to start your thread.

regards

[Woodsy]

High water mark is the rule.... the Alton PD obviously got it wrong!

Woodsy

[Skip]

As Woodsy stated, there is no "10 foot rule".

You own to the high water mark. There are a number of RSAs that define the high water mark, and if in doubt the Department of Environmental Services is the keeper of record and has final say.

Without listing them all out again, you can find information under the 270 section of the boating laws and the 483 section environmental laws.

Look at the bright side....would you really want to pay the taxes on that extra ten foot buffer????

Hopefully the officer was confused or misunderstood the question....wouldn't want someone in a position of authority like that spreading improper information that may cause a landowner undue confusion, or possible legal issues!

Skip

[moose tracks]

I agree with Skip, you own to the high water mark.

[RLW]

With all that being said below. You have to keep everyone out past the 150' mark or headway speed so your property doesn't get washed into the lake.

[Airwaves]

Originally posted by John A. Birdsall
On Labor Day weekend we were told by Officer Skivise of the Alton Police Dept, that was not true, that in fact lake front property extends ten feet out into the lake.

Why did the good officer make that judgement call in the first place?

When I was a child we used to put our drinking water hose into the lake. In order for it to be drinkable, 40 years ago, it had to be 10 feet underwater. Could that be what he was talking about?

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by Airwaves

Why did the good officer make that judgement call in the first place?

When I was a child we used to put our drinking water hose into the lake. In order for it to be drinkable, 40 years ago, it had to be 10 feet underwater. Could that be what he was talking about?

Since when did Alton PD start being part of the Alton Zoning Board?

I wonder if this was the same guy who tried to tell me, when I reported someone had damaged the side of my old Porsche that it was an old dent (was he an autobody expert or something? I had "before" photos!) and he wasn't going to write a report for an old accident!!

I'm not an expert but your wall should be a grandfathered variance. I can't imagine the new act requires everyone to move existing structures. It might do you good to talk with the maybe the town's assessor (Alton Planning Dept.). I'd go straight to an expert...

[Merrymeeting]

So if the officer is correct, you could build your wall 10' into the lake, and backfill it. Then your land is now 10' from the wall. Build a new wall 10' out. Next thing you know, you're in Center Harbor!

[John A. Birdsall]

First thank you for telling me how. Now as if I was Paul Harvey "for the rest of the story"...We have a neighbor who thinks he owns a right of way, a ten foot stretch to the lake, which four families have the same right of way, not just him. My dad has a twenty-six foot pontoon boat tied to the peir which is attached to our boat house. The officer, answering a call from a neighbor who said we have parked our boat on his right of way, and the officer ordered us to move the boat or he was gonna have it towed. If we did not move the boat, the officer skivies, was gonna have a trailer called and tow the boat away at our expense. Our neigbor is upset with us because we will not allow him use of our dock to tie up his boat. This is a guy that if you give him an inch, he will take a foot.

This officer is the supervisor of the police dept while the chief goes thru the court battle over his job. This officer said he is the police and he knows the law. Alton better look out, he is very well versed. I would hate to see what would happen if a crime was committed.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall

First thank you for telling me how. Now as if I was Paul Harvey "for the rest of the story"...We have a neighbor who thinks he owns a right of way, a ten foot stretch to the lake, which four families have the same right of way, not just him. My dad has a twenty-six foot pontoon boat tied to the peir which is attached to our boat house. The officer, answering a call from a neighbor who said we have parked our boat on his right of way, and the officer ordered us to move the boat or he was gonna have it towed. If we did not move the boat, the officer skivies, was gonna have a trailer called and tow the boat away at our expense. Our neigbor is upset with us because we will not allow him use of our dock to tie up his boat. This is a guy that if you give him an inch, he will take a foot.

This officer is the supervisor of the police dept while the chief goes thru the court battle over his job. This officer said he is the police and he knows the law. Alton better look out, he is very well versed. I would hate to see what would happen if a crime was committed.

Now you really have this reader confused more especially regarding the highlighted part. This chief is a brand new chief and I didn't know he was in trouble and if so why isn't captain Heath handling the chiefs affairs. Something just doesn't jive. Guess I'll have to go into the Alton police department site and just see who is who and what they all look like.

[NightWing]

That doesn't make sense. Boundary issues are civil and the police have no authority because no crime is involved.

This issue could probably be settled with a look at your deed and the town tax map. It might take some digging at the registrar of deeds, too. If there is a shared ROW, it will be shown or noted on those documents.

On the other hand, if the strip of land is indeed a communal ROW, the pontoon boat may be partially blocking it which reduces the ability of others to use it as intended. You didn't say if the boat was beached.

[John A. Birdsall]

Originally Posted by NightWing

That doesn't make sense. Boundary issues are civil and the police have no authority because no crime is involved.

This issue could probably be settled with a look at your deed and the town tax map. It might take some digging at the registrar of deeds, too. If there is a shared ROW, it will be shown or noted on those documents.

On the other hand, if the strip of land is indeed a communal ROW, the pontoon boat may be partially blocking it which reduces the ability of others to use it as intended. You didn't say if the boat was beached.

The boat was tied up at the dock, We tried to tell Officer Skiba that was on the deed, but he could care less, he was tired of it and he is the law. Move it or I'll tow it is what it came down too. If it was my boat, he would have towed it, and I would have sued him and the town of Alton for grand theft.

[RLW]

Originally Posted by John A. Birdsall

The boat was tied up at the dock, We tried to tell Officer Skiba that was on the deed, but he could care less, he was tired of it and he is the law. Move it or I'll tow it is what it came down too. If it was my boat, he would have towed it, and I would have sued him and the town of Alton for grand theft.

I see you found the site that was sent to you.

[Patiently Watching]

Just because your neighbor has a right of way over your property to the water, does not mean that he has any claim to rights extending into the water. The question is, who owns the land under the right of way? They are the only ones who could have any argument in court about your boat extending beyond the imaginary boundary line. Do these 4 neighbors actually own the tiny strip?
I have seen this tons of times. They are usually old cattle paths to the water. When lakefront property began becoming popular and the farmers would sell it off in lots, but keep their acreage. They usually kept a crossing to the lake for water. So, if they own it, they could challenge you in court as owners, but if not they have no claim to those rights.

[Merrymeeting]

I've experienced my own share of lake waterfront skirmishes. Unfortunately, sometimes common sense and courtesy are missing with many of these instances.

The law is very clear about the water. The state, and all of us, own it.

I also assume that in this instance, your dock has been there for a long time and is grandfathered on it's location. I assume this because from your description, it sounds like it is right on the edge of your property line, rather than set back from the property line as current rules require, and the fact that your family has been there for 100 years. (Can we also assume that the 10 foot right of way has been there all along too?)

I would ask that you not take this the wrong way as I am not trying to take sides here, nor condoning what appears (from your account) to be bad dealings between you and this one neighbor. But my first reaction to your "rest of the story" update was to think of this from your neighbors point of view.

While I believe that legally you are within your rights, it did seem to me that placing a boat within ~20' of the right of way that 4-5 families share was not the best action on your side (assuming your dock is ~20' from shore).

In doing so, their views and swimming area are somewhat blocked, and while legal, it does strike me as somewhat inconsiderate. As I said, this was my first reaction, and I know nothing about the other families, configuration, past history, etc. But it would be good to understand the story from all sides, and consider other points of view.

Have the other 4 families weighed in on this topic?

[Argie's Wife]

Originally Posted by RLW

Now you really have this reader confused more especially regarding the highlighted part. This chief is a brand new chief and I didn't know he was in trouble and if so why isn't captain Heath handling the chiefs affairs. Something just doesn't jive. Guess I'll have to go into the Alton police department site and just see who is who and what they all look like.

I can help you there...

They all kinda look like this:








(I will say there's some very good, capable officers with Alton PD and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes at any time!)

[RLW]

Originally Posted by Argie's Wife

I can help you there...

They all kinda look like this:

I just love it and it gave this reader a good chuckle.

[RLW]

J. Birdsall there is a PM sent to you regarding info requested.

[Airwaves]

This is absolutely a civil matter, NOT a police issue. I'd call your lawyer and fill him in because it sounds like you are in for a fight. If Officer Skivvies tries to get involved again call the State Police and/or NH Attorney General.

[ITD]

Advanced CAD drawing attached.