HUB status in Moultonborough

[phoenix]

I saw that a cost estimate for the HUB was on the agenda for the selectmen's meeting this past Thursday. Does anyone have any info?

[longislander]

It was actually a "The Hub" proponents request for funds from capital reserves to get a cost estimate for the plans; two contractors for a total of $23,050.

The Hub proponents realize a cost estimate needs to be done, now, for the bond etc. and the required 3/5ths vote at the 2023 May town meeting.

Some estimates thrown out there are $15-$20 millon, at today's prices, with a look to future price change.

[fatlazyless]

Here's their web site ..... https://thehubmoultonborough.com ..... and budda-bing-bang-boom ..... hut-hut-hut ..... ..... it includes "a 25-meter 5-lane pool for swimming lessons, water aerobics, and water polo" ..... plus a 40-foot therapy pool.

Also included is a Multipurpose Room with a basketball court layout, walking track, and accordion bleacher seating.

Well, well, well ..... the cold weather winter season happens every year on a regular schedule so these indoor exercise, basketball, pickleball, swim pool water sports facilities will be TOTALLY FANTASTIC.

This looks TOTALLY FANTASTIC and will be a very welcome addition for everyone in the area! .....

[phoenix]

i hope they told them they will take under advisement for the next year

[phoenix]

FLL maybe you can move

[tummyman]

So now we get an estimate in a few months....or a guess.... about ESTIMATED costs for something that may be built in 2 years. No architectural drawings are available to develop better estimates. No business would ever go out to build something without solid plans and FIRM bids from qualified builders. We have an outside group (The Hub) who surveys folks and have determined a NEED from a portion of the residents. Anyone see the results of the needs review? Who is going to provide the ten year annual operating costs for this behemoth? Or is this another guess in the offing? The legislative body deserves more than estimates and a passive Board of Selectmen so far. The BOS needs a full out financial analysis of the total project costs, bonding fees, operating costs, etc .etc. prepared by qualified neutral parties...certainly not a town employee. It is time to shift the focus to creating a non-for-profit organization to build and operate this facility on town donated land and not strap the taxpayers with another burden. If the NEED is there, then certainly there is a NEED to have those folks build and operate it.

[winni83]

Tummy man is spot on. With all of the fund raising activities the Hub group is supposedly involved in why not use their own funds for the “cost estimates”? Just another example of their hands in the taxpayers’ pockets.

[John Mercier]

Probably looking at a design-build rather than a design-bid-build format.

[fatlazyless]

Is SO very easy to see the architectural drawings ....... go to www.moultonboroughnh.gov/major-projects and click on "The Hub - Community Activity & Aquatic Centre." .......

[tummyman]

By architectural drawings, I meant the detailed building plans that builders need for all structural design elements including a full bill of materials, etc. All that is available are artist sketches, etc.

[fatlazyless]

Five different pages of architectural drawings .... .... made by www.stewarchitects.com, Laconia NH is what's easy to see when you click on "The Hub-Community Activity & Aquatic Centre" at www.moultonboroughnh.gov/major-projects.

[Sue Doe-Nym]

The vote for the $23,000 was 4-1, with Kevin Quinlan against it.
By the way, Karel Crawford, who voted for it, is running for State Representative. She will not be getting my vote.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tummyman

By architectural drawings, I meant the detailed building plans that builders need for all structural design elements including a full bill of materials, etc. All that is available are artist sketches, etc.

Design-Build means that doesn't need to exist... just renderings.

Design-Bid-Build would need the plans to bid the job...

[longislander]

Design, build ...


https://www.symmetrybuilders.net/sym...he%20developer.

[longislander]

By the way, Karel Crawford, who voted for it, is running for State Representative. She will not be getting my vote.

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2022/08..._campaign=Grok

[fatlazyless]

Originally Posted by longislander

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2022/08..._campaign=Grok

So, what the heck ... is GraniteGrok ... www.granitegrok.com/about ... with their motto ... "Dominating the Political Bandwidth in New Hampshire"... so what's this all about?

Definition ..... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dominate ..... ...... "dominate"

[FlyingScot]

Even as a person who generally likes this sort of thing, it's hard for me to understand why a majority of year-rounders would want to pay for this. But I wonder how much of the cost will be borne by locals and how much from second homers. Does anyone know the percent of property value attributable to second homes? Second best number might be percent on the water?

Also--can Moultonborough get other towns or people, such as FLL, to bear a portion of the cost in exchange for membership?

[John Mercier]

They could. But I think if you have paying members that the insurance coverage has to be different.

[longislander]

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by longislander

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

He asked about non-residents/non-taxpayers using the facility.

[phoenix]

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by phoenix

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

From a (seasonal) outsider, it does seem very weird.

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[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by phoenix

since this has been turned down for years why do we continue to elect selectmen who want it

GOOD QUESTION !

How that woman got elected is beyond comprehension.

Many years ago I had a witch for a tenant.
But was advised by the witch that witches are "good" witches.
As in the vein of Laurie Cabot below.

LINK

Go figure !

[tummyman]

New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by tummyman

New preliminary tax assessments are just out in Moultonborough. From a sampling, looks like lakefront land increased 30.74%. With such large waterfront land changes, the burden for paying off the bonding on a project like the HUB further shifts onto the backs of those who do not vote ! All you need to do is "want" something and then get enough folks to support it on the basis that those who do not want or need it have to pay without any voice. When will logic and reason rule ???

When you say 30%, do you mean $.20 up from the $7 it currently is or 30% increase to assessed values?

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[tummyman]

I received this from a friend. It outlines the expected real costs for the proposed HUB Community Center over the 20 year financing period. You will note all of the numbers are exactly from the material that the HUB folks have provided, except for an estimate of the costs the HUB folks admitted will be needed but they have not included. There is also a note at the end that a modest 5% inflation of operating costs…salaries, insurances, benefits, utilities, etc. over that same 20 year period could add an extra $6-7 Million, bringing the overall cost to +/- $40 MILLION !!! Yikes !! As I learned from reading this material, the $15M bond request at Town Meeting is the tip of the cost iceberg for a facility that, in my opinion, has a questionable need. However, if it is approved, then all these numbers will flow to taxpayers annually. I have been told that lakefront properties will pay +/- 70% or more of the costs (based on assessed valuations) but only represent a very small portion of voters who may approve this project. Well worth the time to review this material.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This Guest Commentary is the opinion of that writer. This sender email address is solely used to distribute that opinion.

Please share this information with neighbors, friends and Moultonboro voters. Town Meeting is Thursday, May 11th at 6pm.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't be blindsided by the HUB bonding request of $15.3 Million. That is in no way representative of what this project is going to cost Moultonborough taxpayers.

The project as presented could easily represent a potential increase of +/- 20% or more to the ongoing Municipal budget !


Amount Borrowed (Bond) $15.5 Million The HUB numbers

Interest Payments (20 years) $ 8.9 Million The HUB numbers
_____________

Cost to finance ONLY $24.4 Million The HUB numbers….like your home mortgage payment

Annual Operating Cost ($320,000/year) $ 6.4 Million The HUB numbers (without inflation), reduced by revenue
_____________

Total $30.8 Million

Potential Added Operating Costs ($200,000 year) $ 4.0 Million….HUB folks admitted they didn't have all costs captured.
_____________

Potential Total for 0ver 20 years $34.8 Million


With 5% added inflation of Operating costs, these numbers could realistically eclipse +/- $40 Million over the 20 year period.

The $15.3 Million bond is just the tip of the iceberg that Moultonborough taxpayers are getting obligated to, if approved.

YOU NEED THE FULL STORY !!!!

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by tummyman

With 5% added inflation of Operating costs, these numbers could realistically eclipse +/- $40 Million over the 20 year period.

The $15.3 Million bond is just the tip of the iceberg that Moultonborough taxpayers are getting obligated to, if approved.

YOU NEED THE FULL STORY !!!!

Please. Don't place data and statistics into the conversation. All just muddies the waters.

Instead of the $40 Million dollar estimate.

Take a smaller number such as the pennies added to the home tax evaluation. Folks like smaller numbers.

And no one wants to know anything about inflation. Nobody wants to know about interest for cost of money. No one want to know about the annual maintenance costs. No one wants to know about the annual labor costs.

Please keep the full story a secret !

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by longislander

"The Hub" proposal is for a town property, not a private club. Anyone paying taxes to Moultonborough will pay, resident or not, second home or not.

Presently, the tax rate is 6.98/1000. How much of that will change if "The Hub" with the bond is approved by 3/5ths vote at the 2023 town meeting?

Payments, if applicable, will be for particuler functions in/at the center.

I agree that what you write is 100% true, but it is misleading. Waterfront homes, occupied mostly(?) by nonresidents pay the lion's share of property taxes. Let's call that amount 75%, just for fun. This enables the year rounders to build something for themselves while only paying 25% of the tab. In essence, they get a 75% discount on community centers, schools, and various other things of zero value to Summer people.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, or that the HUB should be built. Only pointing out the political/economic dynamic

[Sue Doe-Nym]

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

[John Mercier]

SS adjusts to inflation.
One of the complaints the FED has on trying to get the inflation under control.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by Sue Doe-Nym

I believe that FS’s number is fairly close….at least that’s what it was about 10 years ago. It really boggles my mind that this HUB entourage is moving forward, full steam ahead, given the current state we’re in with inflation and other pressing issues. People are hurting…..and they are worried about putting gas in their cars/ trucks, food on the table and HEATING their homes this coming season! I am not whining on my own behalf, but I keep thinking of what the vast sums of money we are talking about could do to benefit our citizens who are in need….specifically, the retirees on fixed incomes, for example. I don’t know whether this whole situation makes me more sad or angry…probably both. This project is a terrible idea, particularly at this time.

It's too easy for people who are comfortable (or VERY comfortable) to remember that many folks in our area are struggling. My posts should have noted that. I agree that it would not be right to do this in a way that hit people on fixed incomes

[tummyman]

The BOS has been basically absent for this entire HUB process. Sure, some folks have needs....but others do not. If the BOS wants to be serious, they will issue a survey to every single taxpayer with results analyzed by a professional firm and including many specifics. This is absolutely needs data from every single taxpaying person....residents and non-residents. And it needs to be done before Town Meeting. Questions should include usage potential, impact on tax rates and bills, etc. etc. etc. Let's do a professional survey designed by folks who have this as their business. Enough of all this so called needs stuff that is not in the public domain. As usual, this could be another potential whim that has not been thoroughly vetted by the people responsible for running the town (BOS) and may end up being underutilized. If other towns want in, then let them share in the capital costs as well...not just the operating costs. Here's an idea...M'boro donates the land under a 99 year zero cost lease to the HUB group and they sell shares of the building to the various towns who want to buy in and use it for their residents. We already see the library with folks from other towns wanting to use our local facility as it is far better than what their town wants or has already. I believe now they have to pay. Set up a Board of Directors, make in non-profit, and enjoy! Local M'boro version of "Pay to Play" !!! Simple..... Private / public partnership....not all funded by M'boro taxpayers.

And just wait for the courts and politicians to possibly reinstate donor towns or some other scheme to fund education.....as always it is just over the horizon and M'boro will get hit VERY HARD.

[phoenix]

interesting you never see an advocate of the HUB post . I guess best to stay out of the limelight

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by phoenix

interesting you never see an advocate of the HUB post . I guess best to stay out of the limelight

I think the last vote had less than 100 in support.... so they may not even have someone on the forum.

[tis]

Originally Posted by Descant

It must be true. You just read it on the internet.

And especially if our local jokester writes it!!

[phoenix]

John I would be shocked if they didn't monitor this site

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by phoenix

John I would be shocked if they didn't monitor this site

They might... but would it add value to their strategy?

I would guess few of the people on the forum are residents of Moultonborough, and even fewer are young enough to be in it for the long haul.

They have to convince that younger group that this type of recreation has merit.

That may be harder than they think, but it is the only strategy they have.
This forum probably doesn't have a strong target audience when that subset is the focus.

[loonguy]

A quick search of the Forum members identified 99 who said they were from Moultonborough or included Moultonborough in their member name. That is certainly a small percentage of the total Forum membership, but I suspect it includes some on both sides of the issue. 99 is also a very small percentage of the residents of Moultonborough, so the issue might still find majority support in Moultonborough at some point.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by loonguy

A quick search of the Forum members identified 99 who said they were from Moultonborough or included Moultonborough in their member name. That is certainly a small percentage of the total Forum membership, but I suspect it includes some on both sides of the issue. 99 is also a very small percentage of the residents of Moultonborough, so the issue might still find majority support in Moultonborough at some point.

Yeah, but how many—like me—don't have locations filled out? I think there's quite a few Moultonborough peeps here.

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[John Mercier]

Residents that are Millennials.

You can move Boomers with senior tax exemption changes written into the article tied to the HUB, but that creates a problem for the younger voters. GenX... we don't have the numbers worth targeting. So Millennial residents need to be convinced of the value... not always an easy thing.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Residents that are Millennials.

You can move Boomers with senior tax exemption changes written into the article tied to the HUB, but that creates a problem for the younger voters. GenX... we don't have the numbers worth targeting. So Millennial residents need to be convinced of the value... not always an easy thing.

Maybe we need to start letting the people that want all these goodies pay for them!!

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Maybe we need to start letting the people that want all these goodies pay for them!!

Define ''goodie''.
Recreation is always an extra... and mostly collectivized.

Lake Winnipesaukee is owned by all the residents of NH, but Moultonborough residents benefit from it more than say Franklin residents... how would we make that fair to Franklin residents?

Imagine that the lakes went non-motorized, or worse, what effect would that have on Moultonborough?

Life is never ''fair''.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Define ''goodie''.
Recreation is always an extra... and mostly collectivized.

Lake Winnipesaukee is owned by all the residents of NH, but Moultonborough residents benefit from it more than say Franklin residents... how would we make that fair to Franklin residents?

Imagine that the lakes went non-motorized, or worse, what effect would that have on Moultonborough?

Life is never ''fair''.

But people on the lake certainly pay more taxes than most of those in Franklin! We choose to live on the lake and know we will pay more taxes. If you vote for the wants of a town, not needs, maybe those who vote for them should pay more. Seems fair to me.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by tis

But people on the lake certainly pay more taxes than most of those in Franklin! We choose to live on the lake and know we will pay more taxes. If you vote for the wants of a town, not needs, maybe those who vote for them should pay more. Seems fair to me.

Way too slippery a slope there, tis—by that same rationale, people without kids in the schools shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools.

While I agree there's a line between "necessary" services like water, safety, and education and "goodies" like recreation centers, that line is supposed to be defined (by an honest process) by the citizens in the town.

I don't think there's any question that the HUB would be cool to have in town; the question is whether the process is honest, and if it's fair to taxpayers/worth the overall cost to the overall constituency.

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[tis]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Way too slippery a slope there, tis—by that same rationale, people without kids in the schools shouldn't have to pay taxes for schools.

While I agree there's a line between "necessary" services like water, safety, and education and "goodies" like recreation centers, that line is supposed to be defined (by an honest process) by the citizens in the town.

I don't think there's any question that the HUB would be cool to have in town; the question is whether the process is honest, and if it's fair to taxpayers/worth the overall cost to the overall constituency.

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I think they should help me out with my taxes on my lakefront property? Why should I pay so much? (tongue in cheek of course)

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

But people on the lake certainly pay more taxes than most of those in Franklin! We choose to live on the lake and know we will pay more taxes. If you vote for the wants of a town, not needs, maybe those who vote for them should pay more. Seems fair to me.

But the property owners/residents of Franklin that also own the lake do not make out the way that Moultonborough residents do... you don't transfer those taxes to Franklin.

But using the lake is using their property.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

But the property owners/residents of Franklin that also own the lake do not make out the way that Moultonborough residents do... you don't transfer those taxes to Franklin.

But using the lake is using their property.

The”donor” towns pay a lot to Franklin for schools since you’re using Franklin.

[John Mercier]

There is no such thing currently as a donor town.
There is a group looking to recreate the donor towns.

https://newhampshirebulletin.com/202...ding-solution/

[tis]

Technically no, but we the richer towns still pay a lot more toward state education than the poorer towns. That's why I put the word donor in quotes.

[John Mercier]

Doesn't work that way.

The money raised by the SWEPT is kept in Moultonborough and used to offset what would be listed as the local school tax rate.

None if it ever goes to the State... it all stays local.

[longislander]

https://www.nhbr.com/new-school-fund...ax-inequality/


https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit..._history_0.pdf


https://indepthnh.org/2022/06/28/new...unding-system/


https://www.seacoastonline.com/story...s/10059076002/

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Doesn't work that way.

The money raised by the SWEPT is kept in Moultonborough and used to offset what would be listed as the local school tax rate.

None if it ever goes to the State... it all stays local.

Sorry, you are wrong. We pay a local school tax and a state school tax.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

Imagine that the lakes went non-motorized, or worse, what effect would that have on Moultonborough?

Life is never ''fair''.

Clear water year round?

[loonguy]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

Yeah, but how many—like me—don't have locations filled out? I think there's quite a few Moultonborough peeps here.

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I do not dispute this point, but my perspective is that although the people commenting on the issue on the Forum are mostly negative, there are many more out there who are entitled to vote and might vote for it at some point even though they have not expressed support on the Forum. Negative comments on the Forum do not, and should not, preclude supporters from pursuing what they view as a worthwhile project for Moultonborough and campaigning for it in whatever manner they deem appropriate.

[ApS]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

You know, the more I think about it, my suggestion for a 200-yard open water swim test in order to qualify for a NH motorboat license is making SO much sense.

Probably 66.6% of all the NH motor-boaters are very lousy swimmers who can just barely swim 25-yards on a good day, so this new requirement could encourage them to learn better swimming skills.

Hey there Mr Motor-Boater out there reading this, so how bad is your swimming skill ...... and you know the honest answer is 'not very good!'

Even the Marine Patrol officers only need to swim 50-yards as an MP job entry requirement, and 50-yards in a swim pool is like nothing because you can push off the pool walls at the end of the pool for a good length of that 50-yards so it's really a 25-yard swim test.

Nobody swims very much on Lake Winnipesaukee anymore, everyone uses a motor and gets FAT, and that's all there is to this!

With this new 200-yard motorboat swim requirement, an indoor swim pool funded by the Moultonborough tax payers will fast become a VERY happening place. Almost no one goes swimming anymore by swimming the crawl, breast stroke or side stroke. Is very rare to actually see anyone swimming. 50 to 60 years ago, people would swim at the beach by doing laps along the outer most rope line. If someone did that today the lifeguard would whistle them in except there's NO lifeguard on duty anymore to whistle them in, plus no one do's it, anyway.

So, how did the lakes region become a non-swimming region despite the presence of a big lake? .....

For the same reason that sailing, canoeing, and rowing have lost their respective lusters.

We're getting beat up.

[phoenix]

And remember the operating costs will add forever

[Sue Doe-Nym]

In a perfect world, this HUB mania would disappear. Since that’s unlikely, I wish some group with significant financial backing would undertake this project, raising funds by selling interest in the project, and making it a for- profit project, something that many citizens from surrounding towns could use, and everyone would be happy campers, especially the taxpayers not being stiffed with the entire bill.

[phoenix]

I think the town is too small to do that also. It won't be used enough to keep dues down to make it affordable that's why they want taxpayers to foot the entire bill . Let's hope the town will continue to vote this down

[ACME on the Broads]

*Moultonborough residents (year round / seasonal) take a look at the new "proposed" property assessments for 2023....the increases are staggering. We own a modest lake access home and our appraisal increased 26%! Nothing done in the way of improvements in the last 2 years....insanity! Perhaps the assessors are preparing for the inevitable housing bust?

No Lifeguards at our public beaches
No Swimming rafts
The Hub ?

Timing is everything.

[Cal-to-NH]

I have some answers but far from all the answers

You'll remember that in 2020 the Selectmen backed a total of $5.0 M consisting of $1.5 M in the "Lions Club building" to bring up to code, make ADA compliant, preserve meals-on-wheels etc.... for an additional 30 year lifetime, and then $3.5M to build a "Rec Center" with a track and basketball courts - with room to expand in the future - to be on the large Town-owned Taylor-lot near the Bank of NH.
That was when town bonds would have been at 1.3% for ten years, and we had enough cash for maybe $500,000 of it.... That's right, only $13,000 per year per Million dollars borrowed - basically the interest on $4.5M bond could have been paid by property taxes from 4 lake-front homes. There was also a warning that construction costs would go up by 7% per year (without knowing what would be hitting us for either interest rates or inflation rates as they actually did rise). Using their at-the-time numbers, that would be a 2024 value of $7.2M for the same $5.5M center + Lions Club improvements in using their numbers. The ACTUAL inflation from 2020 - 2024 I don't even want to know (shiver).

Two things got in the way in 2020. First, there was a "sect" of people who wanted much more than this proposed center and immediately rallied a number of voters to their cause, openly warred with the Selectmen, made for a sloppy town meeting with two different centers to vote on (does anyone else remember that town meeting?), and getting a majority - but not the required approval majority, of votes for the $5.5M selectmen plan. The other issue was some history-huggers trying to protect the Taylor property and rallying against the Rec Center on that lot. As it turns out the Selectmen took a wrecking ball to that house to solve that issue going-forward.

No, you can't have a regulation water polo or a regulation swimming competition in a 25 yard pool that is only 5 lanes, so any imaginings that there could be some revenue from that pool is folly.

I think in the end, getting something that could be expanded later - something that most townspeople would likely have compromised on - was replaced by the "i want everything - NOW" mentality.

As usual, we only hurt ourselves. The time came, and the time went. And what did we learn - to go for the I WANT EVERYTHING option again...

What happened to Yankee common sense?

[winni83]

Kevin, Jim and Karel did the right thing for the Town by declining to put the HUB proposal on the Warrant as sponsored by the Town.

For Ms. Johnson and Mr. Borrin to assert that the HUB proposal is not the product of a “special interest group” is laughable. Just look at all of the prior failed proposals to see at who is truly behind this push for a Taj Mahal in our Town. For example, see the post above by Cal To NH.

Kevin exercised more restraint that I would have been capable of in light of the repeated personal attacks, insults and aggressive behavior by Mr. Borrin.

The HUB proponents have a long history of trying to force the Town and its taxpayers to fund this monstrosity and their duplicitous public relations efforts clearly show that they will stop at nothing in their efforts. We need a strong turn out at Town Meeting to vote overwhelmingly NO.

[whalebackpoint'r]

I'm wondering what it will cost each month just to heat the water for the pools?

[John Mercier]

Cost of heating is a variable in NH... regardless of what is being heated.

Once a large body of water is heated though... it will lose and gain heat slowly.
The heat lost would be to the space around the pool, and any part of the building that is open to convection.

So probably not much difference than the same space without the pool.
Relative to the size of the overall building being conceived.

The gym in downtown Laconia... and the pool at the Gunstock Mountain Inn... have variables; but that would be to the GMI having a huge glass wall (low insulation) adjacent to the pool.

So design along with fuel type and cost are all variables.

[Cobalt 12]

Will (We) as in non residents of Moultonborough have access to swim in the pool and enjoy the building? Sure hope so, sounds like a beautiful facility.

[ACME on the Broads]

Cobalt 12, I see you're a new (3/2023) member....we welcome you.

Great news, especially if you're speaking about beauty; Moultonborough's non residents and residents alike can swim in one of the most beautiful lakes country wide, Lake Winnipesaukee has over 59.7 miles of shorefront and 15.4 square miles of water in Moultonborough alone which also happens to be the largest lakefront community in the Lakes Region.

Hard to justify a "$15,000,000.00 beautiful facility," while within the community, we can all enjoy this natural treasure. It features easy access 24/7/365 to all residents and non residents.

[fatlazyless]

Today is May 15 and the Lake Winnipesaukee water temperature at the surface is about 58-60 degrees, right now, too cold for swimming. Lake Winnipesaukee surface water warms up to 70-degrees by about July 1, gets up to 78 on August 1, and descends trough the month of September from 72 back down to 60-degrees on September 30.

So's a huge issue with swimming in Lake Winnipesaukee all year around is that it is too danged cold for swimming like from September 15 through to June 15, it is too cold to swim.

[tbonies]

Originally Posted by ACME on the Broads

Cobalt 12, I see you're a new (3/2023) member....we welcome you.

Great news, especially if you're speaking about beauty; Moultonborough's non residents and residents alike can swim in one of the most beautiful lakes country wide, Lake Winnipesaukee has over 59.7 miles of shorefront and 15.4 square miles of water in Moultonborough alone which also happens to be the largest lakefront community in the Lakes Region.

Hard to justify a "$15,000,000.00 beautiful facility," while within the community, we can all enjoy this natural treasure. It features easy access 24/7/365 to all residents and non residents.

Cobalt - Welcome to the Forum. As always, there are many ways to view things. None are wrong and deserve respect. However, swimming in our natural treasure can be a tad chilly for the 8 months of Oct - May. Probably why many people (most not on this forum) would like access to a year round pool. There can be a lot of numbers thrown around but best I can tell, the annual cost to a taxpayer is about $350-400/$1 Mil of Assessed Property for 15 years to support financing of the facility and about $100/$1 Mil of Assessed Property to pay for maintaining the facility, assuming the town can't claw back usage revenues for non town users of the facility, which are probably substantial. Each taxpayer can gauge for themselves the value of both paying and how much time they invest on this chatter board debating it.

[Lakegeezer]

The Town meeting is rescheduled for Thursday, June 1 at 6PM.

[longislander]

Present tax rate is $4.78/$1,000 of assessment of which $1.25/$1,000 is municipal, only. County, Local Ed. , and State Ed. comprise the other three parts of total town tax
Then, depending on which year of a 15 or 20 or 30 year bond the increase will add to municipal.
The original bond used by the Hub proponents was a 20 year level principal bond at 5.5% interest. The fiscal year estimated tax rate increase ranged from .33 to .17 over the 20 years decreasing accordingly. The first year was .08 but the first year was interest only, and did not include the $775,000 annual principal payments. Total 20 annual payments would be $24,412,500.

Present tax rate is $4.78/$1,000 or $.00478 = annual tax
$200,000 x $.00478 = $956
$300,000 x $.00478 = $1,440
$500,000 x $.00478 = $2,390
$1,000,000 x $.00478 = $4,780

Then,
Using .25 as an increase:
$4.78/$1,000 + $.25/$1,000 = $5.03/$1,000 or $.00503

Assessment x Municipal tax rate = tax
$200,000 x $.00503 = $1,006
$300,000 x $.00503 = $1,509
$500,000 x $.00503 = $2,515
$1,000,0000 x $.00503 = $5,030

Assessment; new rate minus present rate = increase
$200,000 ; $1,006 minus $956 = $50 tax increase for that year
$300,000 ; $1,509 minus $1,440 = $69 tax increase for that year
$500,000; $2,515 minus $2,390 = $125 tax increase for that year
$1,000,000; $5,030 minus $4,780 = $250 tax increase for that year

Tax bills sent out semi annually.

Operating cost are not fixed, as is the bond. Extreme caution for operating cost.

[TheProfessor]

Originally Posted by tbonies

Cobalt - Welcome to the Forum. As always, there are many ways to view things. None are wrong and deserve respect. However, swimming in our natural treasure can be a tad chilly for the 8 months of Oct - May. Probably why many people (most not on this forum) would like access to a year round pool. There can be a lot of numbers thrown around but best I can tell, the annual cost to a taxpayer is about $350-400/$1 Mil of Assessed Property for 15 years to support financing of the facility and about $100/$1 Mil of Assessed Property to pay for maintaining the facility, assuming the town can't claw back usage revenues for non town users of the facility, which are probably substantial. Each taxpayer can gauge for themselves the value of both paying and how much time they invest on this chatter board debating it.

No town should be in the recreation business of this magnitude.

Why hasn't a private for profict company presented a proposal ????

The elephant in the room is placing its nose inside your wallet or pocketbook.

[John Mercier]

Meredith town docks have to be in the vicinity of that level.

And none of the beach bathhouses are really cheap to build.

[Wishbone]

I looked on line, and there are several companies that this is their core business. I wonder if any of the ones who signed the document to put this on the ballot even contacted any one of these companies. If it is such a great need for the town, why wouldn't they fight to put a facility in Moultonborough??

[whalebackpoint'r]

So, I think all the proponents should form a company, pool their resources and purchase the property in question, build it and run it as a business, AND pay the real estate taxes to the town. A win-win-win for all!

[tis]

Originally Posted by whalebackpoint'r

So, I think all the proponents should form a company, pool their resources and purchase the property in question, build it and run it as a business, AND pay the real estate taxes to the town. A win-win-win for all!

I think that's a great idea.

[John Mercier]

The reason that government acts is because private business declines.

Since it only take 25 registered voters to petition it to town meeting vote, I expect that it will keep coming up.
That is unless it reaches the 60% threshold... after that they wouldn't need another vote.

They have bigger issues in my opinion, but this seems to be what the residents are focused on.

[tis]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

The reason that government acts is because private business declines.

Since it only take 25 registered voters to petition it to town meeting vote, I expect that it will keep coming up.
That is unless it reaches the 60% threshold... after that they wouldn't need another vote.

They have bigger issues in my opinion, but this seems to be what the residents are focused on.

Because it's become harder and harder for businesses to compete with government, only government can afford it.

[fatlazyless]

Waterville Valley is home to the www.wmacwv.com, a private business. It has an indoor 24-meter pool, heated to 82-degrees, and an outdoor, June thru October, 30-meter pool, heated to about 72-degrees.

For $600/year you can get an off-peak membership that excludes Saturdays, Sundays till 4-pm, Christmas week, MLK weekend, and the February Massachusetts school vacation week.

It has two large indoor hot tubs, heated to 104-degrees.

Today, May 16, 2023, the surface water temperature in Lake Winnipesaukee is 58 to 60 degrees depending where it gets measured on different areas in the big lake. Lake Winnipesaukee water surface temperature usually gets up to 70-degrees not until June 28.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by tis

Because it's become harder and harder for businesses to compete with government, only government can afford it.

Is there a business in Moultonborough already providing these services?

[thinkxingu]

When do assessment values change? Specifically, if residents paid half ($3.49) in July with a certain assessed value, will the assessed value be the same for the December bill?

And, if so, the equation will be assessment/1000 x 1.29, yes?

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[longislander]

The property tax year runs from April 1 through March 31. Property taxes are based on the assessed value of your property on April 1 of each tax year.

"The Town of Moultonborough bills twice each year. The first bill of the year is a partial payment, based on one-half of the previous year’s tax .,.. . This tax bill, printed and mailed out near the end of May, is usually due July 3rd every year."

"The tax rate is set in the fall of the year. The final bill is calculated using the new rate multiplied by your property’s assessed value as of April 1st less any payments made on the first bill. Printed and mailed in the middle to end of October, it is usually due December 1st each year. Interest at 8% per annum is charged on tax bills not paid by the due dates."

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/tax...illing-process


https://nhtaxkiosk.com/?KIOSKID=MOULTONBOROUGH

[phoenix]

so anyone whose assessed value that went up less than 31.5% should see a second half bill lower than the first half

[longislander]

Depends ....

https://www.depend.com/en-us/

[longislander]

Just got back in the house.
All kidding aside.
Just took a look at what my tax should be, if I'm doing this correctly:

old assessment X .00698 = old year tax = x 1/2 = last July tax, that I paid
new assessment X .00478 = new tax = x 1/2 = next tax for next July

This Dec tax:
new assessment X .00478 = new tax base less last July payment = this Dec.tax

Old and new assessments are on the town website property cards tax/gis.

[ACME on the Broads]

Curious if anyone has been able thus far to validate if the discussed $4.78 number is in fact the new Moultonborough Tax rate?

Thank you in advance.

[longislander]

The moultonborough tax collector has posted on the town website. See attached.

https://www.moultonboroughnh.gov/sit...ory_-_2022.pdf

[ITD]

The tax rate is absolutely meaningless. What is this year's tax levy versus last year's?

[phoenix]

i guess i a confused. The assessment for each property has been finalized .My taxes for the year will be my assessed value x the tax rate. so to me its very meaningful

[ITD]

Originally Posted by phoenix

i guess i a confused. The assessment for each property has been finalized .My taxes for the year will be my assessed value x the tax rate. so to me its very meaningful

It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by ITD

It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.

When I read in comments in light of earlier extensive threads on assessments prior to tax rates being published, it sounds like you're more focused on a political point than what the actual bills will be. The assessments are finalized, the rate is critical info for every homeowner.

[longislander]

The tax rate is absolutely meaningless. What is this year's tax levy versus last year's?

Tax Levy:IRS :
"A levy is a legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt. Levies are different from liens. A lien is a legal claim against property to secure payment of the tax debt, while a levy actually takes the property to satisfy the tax debt."

tax rate X assessement = tax ... thank you! Keeps away the tax collector when paid.

A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.

When paying the town tax, most don't care about average tax bill. They care about their tax.
RE: Moultonborough, why not wait till the moultonborough taxes are sent out. Then see if tax went down. Then the conversations can begin on how "dumb" it was for the select board to return money back to the taxpayer, rather than spend on non-budgeted items.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by longislander

Tax Levy:IRS :
"A levy is a legal seizure of your property to satisfy a tax debt. Levies are different from liens. A lien is a legal claim against property to secure payment of the tax debt, while a levy actually takes the property to satisfy the tax debt."

tax rate X assessement = tax ... thank you! Keeps away the tax collector when paid.



When paying the town tax, most don't care about average tax bill. They care about their tax.
RE: Moultonborough, why not wait till the moultonborough taxes are sent out. Then see if tax went down. Then the conversations can begin on how "dumb" it was for the select board to return money back to the taxpayer, rather than spend on non-budgeted items.

Levy means to impose, such as impose a tax on the town.

Part of the problem is that people don't want to understand this stuff. Those who want to spend more money love that. Letting people think that rising real estate prices are the reason taxes rise is deceptive. It needs to stop.

The government should not collect one penny more than it needs, having a surplus is a result of very poor planning IMO.



Side note: Is there a multi quote function in this forum?

[ITD]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

When I read in comments in light of earlier extensive threads on assessments prior to tax rates being published, it sounds like you're more focused on a political point than what the actual bills will be. The assessments are finalized, the rate is critical info for every homeowner.

Please just read what I wrote and don't try to read my mind, you suck at it.

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by ITD

It is in that respect.

But the tax rate going up or down does not cause your tax bill to go up or down, the tax rate is merely a calculation that splits the levy among everyone.

The way that the tax collector in this town publishes the tax rate is not completely honest in my opinion. It gives the impression that taxes are going down. A more honest number would be to publish what the average value home will pay in taxes this year versus last year. I suspect the average tax bill increased this year unless something radical happened. The tax rate is meaningless.

That is done during the annual budget, when monies are actually being allocated for expenditure.

Assessments don't change the budgeted expenditures.

[ITD]

Originally Posted by John Mercier

That is done during the annual budget, when monies are actually being allocated for expenditure.

Assessments don't change the budgeted expenditures.

Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.

Publishing a graph that shows tax rates decreasing, which is totally meaningless, makes me wonder why the tax collector does it?

[John Mercier]

Originally Posted by ITD

Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.

Publishing a graph that shows tax rates decreasing, which is totally meaningless, makes me wonder why the tax collector does it?

I think the BOS started that.
In a City, the budget process is different than the towns... and I think the City Council wanted to somehow promote they were being conservative with tax dollars... even though the tax rate is actually not the real means to confer that.

I think the town BOS just followed along.

I would love to change town budget votes to some time right after people got a tax bill in the mail... that would really do the trick.

[phoenix]

Well for most its a drop ( my assessment went up 26% ) so this is a drop. i understand someone is paying more or at least.maybe new construction . of course John will role out his depends

[John Mercier]

Longislander did the ''depends''.

I don't know what the overall valuation increased in Moultonborough... so I don't know if 26% is good, bad, or par.

[thinkxingu]

Originally Posted by thinkxingu

When do assessment values change? Specifically, if residents paid half ($3.49) in July with a certain assessed value, will the assessed value be the same for the December bill?

And, if so, the equation will be assessment/1000 x 1.29, yes?

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

I thought the answer to this was that the assessments stay the same for July/December, but it appears that's incorrect and that the assessments stay the same for December and the following July—at least that's what my tax bills show.

Also, December tax bills are ready!

Sent from my SM-G990U1 using Tapatalk

[longislander]

I thought the answer to this was that the assessments stay the same for July/December

The do.

The assessmennts are effective as of April 1st ... April 1 to March 31

" ... all property taxes shall be assessed on the inventory taken in April of that year, ..."

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/V/76/76-2.htm


The tax rate changes for December

Go to this site. The assessment for both years should be there.

https://www.nhtaxkiosk.com/default.aspx




Since this thread started with "HUB status in Moultonborough", Moultonborough voters should be sure and take the survey:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1F...O4q1g/viewform

https://thehubmoultonborough.com/

[longislander]

Exactly John, I've been saying this for quite a while. Budgets also need to be voted on for the spending to happen.

Budgets are voted on ... at town meeting. They can be changed there and modified etc. Some of us have motioned at the meetings, to change a lline item of the budget when the warrant article comes up, to change a number to 0 (zero). If majority vote agrees ... the line item changes to 0. Any other number or vote follows the same process.