Speed Limit

[PROPELLER]

I am surprised there has not been any chatter regarding the proposed speed limit for Winni. The bill is listed on the NH General Court website, HB 162, sponsored by Rep Piliod from Belmont. It proposes a daytime speed limit of 45 mph & a nightime speed limit of 25mph.

[Island Girl]

Will there be any public hearings, committee meetings, etc for the public to give an opinion?

[Fat Jack]

They say the best thing to do is just start some dialogue about the matter on this forum. The legislators will be watching to get a feel for public opinion on the subject. Posting an opinion here is probably more valuable than writing a letter to your rep.

[Dave R]

Speed limits on the open water are rather silly in my opinion. There are plenty of places one would never go 45 MPH on the lake even if the law said it was OK to do so and there are plenty of places one could exceed 45 in a perfectly safe manner. I doubt a speed limit would make the lake safer than it is now. It would just give the Marine Patrol something else to concentrate on rather than trying to keep people safe.

It would also be quite tricky to accurately measure speed using handheld radar due to the way Doppler radar works and the fact that the vector of one boat relative to another, unlike a highway, is utterly random on the water.

[Cal]

Ah , government at work...protecting us from ourselves
So now we who own "offshores" that can no longer go over 45(legally) can trade up to cruisers that kick up 3 and 4 foot wakes at 35 mph and be perfectly legal in most areas

[Lakegeezer]

I agree with the previous posting. 45 is way too fast in many situations, but on a sunny Tuesday, in mid-May, at 9AM, in the broads (and lots of other times and places) - there is no reason not to do 60+. So, 45 is an artificial number that is both too fast and too slow. A night time speed limit of 25 is not right either. Again, 25 is way too fast for some areas, but coming north from Wolfeboro in the broads, 25 can be too slow. In fact, some boats will plane bow high at 25, and conforming to the law would actually make visibility worse - and reduce safety. The laws should re-enforce a boater's responsibility to go a reasonable and proper speed at all times. Heck, the state is making everyone take a course in how to drive a boat - part of the course should be to recognize when its time to go fast, and when its time to go slow. I fear that this is feel-good legislation that gives the appearance of the warm blanket of safety, but does nothing except to encourage disrespect for the law.

[itchin for fishin]

I think the real purpose of the limit would be to chase the go boats off the lake and to the ocean. Dave and Geezer have hit it on the head, cruising even 35 or 40 say by an Eagle island on a busy day is dangerous. Most boaters do not have the skills to react quick enough.

The question that begs is it the speed or the number of boats that make the lake more dangerous? It really is a bit a both. If you chase away some boats that live for speed, that probably would drop the number of boats and speed and potentially make it safer. Who knows. Just a guess on the logic.

[Jan]

Before bashing anyone who even mentions speed limits it may be helpful to look at Lake George. They have a 45 mph speed limit. I'm sure there was a heated debate there but the speed limit advocates prevailed. Why? Couldn't the same reasons for putting a speed limit on Lake George apply to Lake Winni?

I'm not necessarily for a speed limit here but I think it would be nice to have a rational exchange of ideas about this instead of the usual hysteria from the performance boat owners. Is that possible on this forum?

So what about Lake George? If they passed a 45 mph speed limit there why not here?

[itchin for fishin]

Here Here Jan! I think that would be great. I would love to have a better understanding of why people oppose the limit. Is it just our natural desire for freedom, is it the feeling of going fast? I know myself, I could live with a limit. I'm one of those who doesn't ride faster than 45. My reason is when I'm on the lake, I want to really relax. With higher speeds, you do need to "work" a little more piloting as things as situations come up on you much faster. So that's my reason for not opposing it. However, I will fully respect those who do oppose the limit and would like to better understand their perspective.

[fatlazyless]

I see boats out cruising at night and in the dark at speeds of 30-40 mph and assume they use a global positioning system to assist their normal eyeball vision for steering. The technology of gps has created a new boating venue on Winnipeaukee enabling boaters to cruise along up on plane in the night. With a lot less boat traffic out there at night, it's a good time to be out on the water and the stunning surroundings take on a whole new look.....night-time. Even a small rowboat w/ a two horse outboard is supposed to have the required red-green-white lights for the night and it can always be seen by an 8000lb-500hp 31' Baha Bandit that is night cruising up on plane at speeds of 30mph and faster. Wasn't there a night boating fatal accident in August 2002 involving a 31' go-fast and a 22' bow-rider where the driver claimed the white stern light of the other boat was not lit up?

[ApS]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

"...Wasn't there a night boating fatal accident in August 2002 involving a 31' go-fast and a 22' bow-rider where the driver claimed the white stern light of the other boat was not lit up?"

Yes there was. It occurred four days after my letter-to-the-editor appeared in the Granite State News. The letter was titled "Anarchy on Winnipesaukee". Both parties could have read it.

Afterwards, this Forum "lost" at least one poster's user-name that contained the word "Baja".

Originally Posted by Dave R

"...Specifically for the reasons mentioned above, but also doing something just because NY does it, seems like a terrible reason to do something in NH..."

The boats targeted are very mobile. If NY restricts them to 45 MPH, they just trailer to the nearest big lake that permits their excesses. (Oceans are dirty and might smudge their graphics).

Originally Posted by Fat Jack

"They say the best thing to do is just start some dialogue about the matter on this forum..."

More importantly is that newspapers read here and archive the quotes.

Originally Posted by Dave R

"I doubt a speed limit would make the lake safer than it is now."

You may be right. If you've visited these Big Boater websites, you'll see a disdain for regulation. (Some would call it arrogance). Boats that can exceed 45 MPH will choose "not to see" the MPs with their light flashing and sirens blaring.

Originally Posted by lakershaker

I agree that there are many boats inappropriate for the lake being operated here, but putting in a speed limit won't help the issue of the giant Carver swamping canoes and endangering children- it can't go 45 anyway.

Giant Carvers need to be hit in the wallet with ultra-big-time registration fees. "A cheap way to get Lakefront" isn't helping the Lake any, but it could fund Enforcement.

Originally Posted by lakershaker

"...And the offshore boats have smaller wakes when they are on plane than when they are bow up at slower speeds...."

'Wonder why the "Big Boater" didn't use that among the defense arguments. (That the Big Boater didn't see the smaller boat's stern light because, "bow-up" he couldn't see over his own bow).

The Big Boater could have sued Baja for design insufficiencies, and "beat the rap".

"...I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said something like, "He who sacrifices a little freedom for a little security will get neither and deserve neither."

Ben wrote "essential freedoms". Excess is not an essential freedom.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

I see boats out cruising at night and in the dark at speeds of 30-40 mph and assume they use a global positioning system to assist their normal eyeball vision for steering. The technology of gps has created a new boating venue on Winnipeaukee enabling boaters to cruise along up on plane in the night. With a lot less boat traffic out there at night, it's a good time to be out on the water and the stunning surroundings take on a whole new look.....night-time. Even a small rowboat w/ a two horse outboard is supposed to have the required red-green-white lights for the night and it can always be seen by an 8000lb-500hp 31' Baha Bandit that is night cruising up on plane at speeds of 30mph and faster. Wasn't there a night boating fatal accident in August 2002 involving a 31' go-fast and a 22' bow-rider where the driver claimed the white stern light of the other boat was not lit up?

Sorry FLL, I took this post as one to debate the nightime vs daytime aspects of a SL. Answering your question above I believe the MP estimated the speed of the Baja at about 27 MPH, not really a different velocity than the proposed 25 mph. The problem was not one of, hmmm, speed but rather that of (IMHO) observability, in this case (IMHO) limited by the driver's state (IMHO, have I protected Don enough here) not speed. SLs won't protect us from bad helmsman not matter what people say.

This said, the discussion of night time vs day time SLs are 2 different issues and should be approached as such. As for a 25 mph night limit ... Please make your case. I'm not against SLs as a rule, but there must be good reasoning & evidence for them .............

[ApS]

Originally Posted by jeffk

"...If we don't want knee jerk solutions to stupid behavior and the seemingly inevitable crash or death, what can we change now to get a better outcome?"

Don't worry about "incident" reactions. The Dealers already have them outlined:
1) It was a "freak" incident.
2) Let's not commit some knee-jerk reaction.
3) It could have happened anywhere.
4) Awareness is the solution to incidents like this.
5) We need more boater education to prevent incidents like this.
6) It's too soon to determine the next course of action. (My favorite).
7) Let's not panic over this incident.
8) Let's keep cool heads over this incident.
9) This incident was caused by defective hardware.
10) The smaller boat was at fault in this incident.
11) They were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
12) At least he was doing what he loved to do.

Originally Posted by Mee-n-Mac

"...Answering your question above I believe the MP estimated the speed of the Baja at about 27 MPH, not really a different velocity than the proposed 25 mph..."

1) But we don't know what the speed of the Baja actually was!

In civil law suits, it is not unusual to simulate the collision with the actual device(s) used. Then we know for sure. All we have now is supposition or the testimony of the perpetrator.

2) I find it curious that we "skipped" a year without some Legislator's speed limit proposal. We expected one in 2002, and got one. Was it in 2004 that more Winnipesaukee boaters were exposed to the "excesses" of Big Boaters? Should it be called "Raised Consciousness?"

There certainly were plenty of them this past season -- and lewd behavior with them. http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...97&postcount=9

They're getting thrown off other protected inland waters and we're getting stuck with them.

[BI1]

Originally Posted by fatlazyless

Wasn't there a night boating fatal accident in August 2002 involving a 31' go-fast and a 22' bow-rider where the driver claimed the white stern light of the other boat was not lit up?

Ya Ya ...Old News....And that was a terrible thing!...There have been many accidents on the lake... Sail boats turn over, Bass boats taking a big wave and sinking, go fast boats hooking and sinking, jet skis colliding ,people diving in and hitting there head ect... and many collisions due to many factors ..Most all of these were not caused by speed alone.. Its operator error!! and the MPs are out there to enforce the law and watch for safety issues ...putting a 45 mph speed limit or any speed limit will not fix 98% of the causes of most accidents. If we need to make areas of the lake slower post no wake zones in those areas...
My .02
Bob
(LIVE FREE OR DIE!)

[JG1222]

Originally Posted by itchin for fishin

I would love to have a better understanding of why people oppose the limit. Is it just our natural desire for freedom, is it the feeling of going fast? I know myself, I could live with a limit.

I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said something like, "He who sacrifices a little freedom for a little security will get neither and deserve neither."

In my humble opinion, if the safe boating laws that we already have were merely enforced more effectively, there would be no need for additional ones. Unfortunately, I fear that the state would see a speed limit as another valuable revenue stream - the added "safety" would just be a nice bonus.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Jan

So what about Lake George? If they passed a 45 mph speed limit there why not here?

Specifically for the reasons mentioned above, but also doing something just because NY does it, seems like a terrible reason to do something in NH.

There are already laws in place that govern boating, and common sense nicely covers any other aspects of the pasttime. If people obeyed the existing laws and used common sense, there would be no accidents. Maybe we need to punish folks for not using common sense rather than those that go fast where it's safe to do so... How about fines for running up on the Witches? You just know that anyone that would do that would be quite likely to do other dumb things.

Our society seems comfortable with punishing those who are perceived to be unsafe and having pity on those that do something really dumb. You see police issuing speeding tickets to automobile drivers all the time based on that notion that speed may lead to an accident, but they rarely write tickets after someone proves beyond all doubt that they were driving in an unsafe manner by actually having an accident.

I think we need to ask ourselves "why do we need a speed limit?", not "why not have one?"...

[Dave R]

I feel compelled to point out the fact that my boat will barely break 45 MPH and I rarely go more than 35. I'm just opposed to redundant and useless laws in general.

[rickstr66]

Let me start out by saying I have a boat that will do well over 45mph and I often do go over 45mph. In fact most times im doing over 45 mph.

Now onto my point. Using physics, you can determine that a boat weighing X and going X mph will take X amount of time and feet to come to a stop. If the X in mph is reduced then the distance and time it takes to stop a boat will decrease. This will undoubtablly reduce the # of accidents that happen when a boat is initailly going over 45mph. Im not saying im for a speed limit here but scientifically speaking speed limits reduce not only the # of accidents but also the severity of them.

As long as the Marine Patrol use common scense and arn't over the top with this, a speed limit will work fine. I dont think I have ever been pulled over and given a ticket unless I was going more then 10mph over the posted speed limit. If the Marine patrol use this same logic and only pull those over who are operating dangerously over the 45 mph limit, there wont be a problem

[GWC...]

Why do "the few" have to rule "the many" in this country and state?

Pass your speed limit; but remember that life is choices and challenges.

The "wake" will make you think twice.

Unfortunately, it will be too late - your speed limit law will be a fact of life.

The upside is that "big boat" sales will increase because people with boats of less than 30 feet in length will not be able to enjoy a ride on the Lake.

Also, unfortunately, shorefront property owners will be observing the legal erosion of their assets.

Remember, the rule states 150 feet away.

Also, take a wild guess as to why the Lake has experienced a "no-wake" limit.

Perhaps, just perhaps, that is what is really needed to keep "the few" happy and content.

Just my opinion; yours may differ...

P.S.- Let us not forget Castle in the Clouds, the LRCT, and snowmobiles.

[lakershaker]

I think you could argue both sides of this issue using logic, and the speed limit may not be the best solution to the problems that prompt it as a solution. As others have said on this thread, there are already a number of laws on the books that cover the problems sometimes created by speed. On a busy Saturday afternoon, it would never be prudent to go 40mph through FL2 and Eagle Island, but other times speed of 60 may be safe at other points on the lake.

The reckless nature of boaters who either are not paying attention to their fellow boaters or truly don't have a clue is what I see as the big problem. I would prefer to see NHMP be stricter with enforcing reckless operation violations than be forced to sit and run radar. Reckless operation is already on the books, has stiffer penalties than a simple safe passage violation or a speed violation would have, and I think it better addresses the unique issues of boating safety. In the Saturday afternoon scenario, I would argue that someone threading the needle in heavy boat traffic by light 2 at 40MPH would be operating recklessly, but putting in a 45MPH speed limit would in effect give the operator prima facia evidence for a reasonable defense. IMO, if Marine Patrol were to start handing out tickets that forced the operators to appear in court and explain to the Judge what they were doing, it would go a long way to improving the safety on the water. I think these problems boil down to a lack of common sense, which is impossible to legislate. But forcing someone to explain their actions to the Judge could go a long way towards fixing the problem.

Finally, putting in a speed limit may actually have the effect of generating higher speeds on the lake. Like others have said, many boaters don't go faster than 35 or so. But how many cars on the road travel below the speed limit? You may actually see inexperienced boaters thinking they need to be going 45, when for them 30 is much safer.

[Tyler]

Can anyone provide contact info for Pilliod Belk who is the sponsor of this House Bill? Thanks.

[Island Girl]

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/house/members/email.asp
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ie/w...smyresults.asp
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/ie/whosmyleg/

Can't find Belk, just James Pilliod.

[Tyler]

I thought the mandatory boater education was the answer to the boating problems on Winni. Was/is this just feel good, apple pie and motherhood legislation? Has anyone asked Mr. Belk why he thinks this HB 162 bill is necessary and if so for him to provide data to support it? Seems like we are putting the cart before the horse.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by lakershaker

In the Saturday afternoon scenario, I would argue that someone threading the needle in heavy boat traffic by light 2 at 40MPH would be operating recklessly, but putting in a 45MPH speed limit would in effect give the operator prima facia evidence for a reasonable defense.

If the traffic is that heavy shouldn't the 150' take effect and reduce the need for ANY speed limit
My boat's capable of well over 45 but most of the time going from Weirs beach to Wolfeboro or Alton Bay I run 2700to 3000 rpms and that gets me 45/50 mph , a very comfortable cruising speed for a boat my size. Most of my higher speeds are to race the sun down when returning home late or as a thunderstorm approaches. Now a speed limit would make me a criminal as well as many others who , I know , have done the same thing .
There's already laws in place to address the "unsafe" issues and apparently it's hard enough to keep track of these now.
To me it's , more government and one less freedom , more than anything else

[Bear Islander]

I would rather see a horsepower limit than a speed limit. But I welcome a speed limit.

This argument that speed limits don't work and are not enforceable does not hold water. Many lakes, including NH lakes, have speed and horsepower limits and they work great.

At some point we need to tell people that this is a lake and not the ocean. Boats that have extreme speed, noise and wake should not be operated 150 feet from shore.

[overlook]

Athis lake I do not recall anytime that horsepower was found to be at blame for a boating accident, or that a speed of over 45 mph involved two boats in an accident. The current laws are quite sufficent. Ilove to sail but I also feel quit comfortable cruising over a 100mph.

[Bear Islander]

Why assume this is just about boating safety?

It's also about erosion, excessive wake, noise pollution, water pollution, Loon nests, dock damage, swamped canoes, and a small child standing in 2 feet of water and being slammed into the rocks by the wake of a Carver that belongs in the Atlantic.

[GWC...]

If this is about "erosion, excessive wake, ..., Loon nests, dock damage, swamped canoes, and a small child standing in 2 feet of water and being slammed into the rocks by the wake of a .... that belongs in the Atlantic",
then, where does this leave the Mount, the Sophie C, and the Doris E?

Surely you do not wish for their retirement?!?

[Bear Islander]

The Sophie and the Mount pass close to my place every day. The wake they put out is large. But the wake of performance boats and cabin cruisers is much worse.

This idea that the tour boats have the biggest wake just is not true. Plus there are only a few of them and they are operated by responsible professionals that know how to minimize their negative effects.

And tour boats provide lake access to tens of thousands that wouldn't have it otherwise. That's a fair trade for the minor inconvenience they create.

[lakershaker]

Originally Posted by Bear Islander

Why assume this is just about boating safety?

It's also about erosion, excessive wake, noise pollution, water pollution, Loon nests, dock damage, swamped canoes, and a small child standing in 2 feet of water and being slammed into the rocks by the wake of a Carver that belongs in the Atlantic.

Unfortunately, a speed limit won't solve most of these problems. I agree that there are many boats inappropriate for the lake being operated here, but putting in a speed limit won't help the issue of the giant Carver swamping canoes and endangering children- it can't go 45 anyway. And the offshore boats have smaller wakes when they are on plane than when they are bow up at slower speeds. I think having a speed limit would just be another unnecessary law that doesn't properly address the true underlying issues. I would much rather see a moratorium on large displacement craft.

[ITD]

Let's enact more laws, everyone knows more regulation is better. Why 45 mph why not 30 or even 65? Why, because it is a number pulled out of someone's "head". Does Belmont even border the lake? I have a boat that will go 55 to 60 and sometimes I go that fast. Sometimes I am passed by boats going even faster. Every "irritation", I can't even call them close calls, I've experienced is at slower speeds caused by other boats travelling at slower speeds. I was able to correct the problem by slowing, stopping or changing course.

The speed limit is a joke, requested by people who think they are smarter than the rest. They think with their emotion rather than their brains. Most of the issues listed here (erosion, large wakes, bad behavior) will not be solved by a speed limit. Once again, if a careful thoughtful study was done, the Representative would find a speed limit is not necessary. Unfortunately some of our Representatives are not the brightest bulbs in the circuit.

[Cal]

I agree with you ITD , but it's hard to reason with people who want speed limits , even if only for their own selfish reasons. How do you make sense of the need to go fast. Just like the noise issue...there's no arguing for noise , only against it.Our government has reached a point , where if three people complain , they will change a law or make a new one regardless of what the other 4,346,328,210 people want
Some people would rather live in the 50's or 60's , granted it was a great time , but there's just no going back
I just finished a 14 hour shift and the ol' bulb's getting pretty dim , so I'm gonna hit the sack

[Sally]

The sponsor of this bill is Rep. James Pilliod from Belmont. (The Belk you were refering to is an abbreviation for Belknap County, which he represents.)

His contact info is:

504 Province Rd, Belmont, NH 03220-5379

[JDeere]

Funny how the same old folks bring up the same old argument about laws. Seems that the consistent thought is more laws are bad because there are A) enough laws on the books and B) you cannot enforce the new law. Based on that argument the government should not enact new legislation as society and technology changes. The issue of fast, ocean going boats on the lake was not an issue years ago because the problem did not exist. Today is different than it was years ago and society needs to amend laws to deal with the new reality.


The lake is without argument overcrowded and dangerous on any given summer weekend. There is not rational argument that can be made that someone needs to travel at a speed that is above 45 MPH. Where is anyone going that they need the extra speed? The speed is not about traveling to a destination it is about the thrill. IMHO!


Anyone can (and will) raise the argument that they have had problems with slow moving boats but statistically speed is a factor in any type of accident. Boater education cannot hurt but drivers’ education produces more than a few lunatics on the road. I understand that those lunatics on the road are probably breaking the law but at least there is a way to deal with them through legal remedies.


Anyway, slower is safer and more friendly to the lake and those that live, weekend, summer, fish, swim, wade, canoe etc. on it!

[overlook]

The safest thing to do is that no one use the lake, just look at it. Canoes are dangerous ( most deaths are attributed to capsising and fishing). No swimming that way no one will drown and contribute to bacteria. No powerboats so ther is no pollution or eroson ( but when you drive your car you might crash or pollute) maybe we can take it to the next step and rid all water fowl ( that means Loons too)

You cannot argue a speed limit without prejugdest!

[rickstr66]

Can anyone find out the exact number of accidents involving 2 or more boats on Winni last year, and for that matter the last several years.I have no idea where to get that info. For all this talk of over crowdedness (is that a word lol?) im guessing the number is relitivly low. Im willing to guess most accidents involving 2 or more boats happen at speeds much lower then the proposed 45mph. Its not speed thats the main factor.. its boaters that dont have a clue on how to run a boat properly. Distraction in my opinion is the #1 cause of boating accidents. All this argument about what people precieve as "ocean going boats".. Who says they are only for the ocean??? When you buy one does it say..... only use in the ocean? ( I dont own an "ocean going boat"). One poster wants to impliment a horse power restriction. Why ? What will that accomplish? A 15' boat with a 90hp motor will go just as fast as a 20' with a 150hp or a 30' with a 250hp

[frank m.]

Originally Posted by JDeere

There is not rational argument that can be made that someone needs to travel at a speed that is above 45 MPH.

John, Don't waste your breath here. "Rationality" has no place in this string. This string is just for people who either own or profit from monster boats or who like to disagree. Canoes and loons? Luckily, few of these people live up here, vote up here, or have any serious influence. In time, those of us who do not own forty footers will be able to use the lake again.

[Seaplane Pilot]

I moved up from Massachusetts several years ago in order to get away from the liberalism that's prevalent there. It's that attitude that the government knows what's best for us that was not present in the "Live Free or Die state, which caused me to leave Mass. However, I fear that the influx of Mass residents that came here possibly to escape the liberalism is changing NH forever. Once here, I think they fall into old habits and look toward the government for direction, guidance and rules in their lives. I think a perfect example is the fact that NH voted for Kerry in the election. How much more liberal can you get? I think the idea of a speed limit on the lake is rediculous and will just be the start of more rules and less freedom. Marine Patrol does not have the resources to enforce the rules as they stand, so what makes everyone think that enacting a new speed limit will save us from ourselves? The need to enforce the rules that are in place now.

[Fat Jack]

WP,
Seems an interesting switch to take the side of the jet-setters and act as if you are speaking for us old-time locals. Especially when, by virtue of being a recent transplant to this state, you have no basis for representing us. Ninety-nine percent of these performance boats are owned by out-of-staters (no, I don't have evidence of that). It's the locals and old-timers who are having the lake taken away from us in recent years. Claiming that our desire to start using the lake again is somehow being "liberal" and implying that it is these rich kids with the speed boats who represent the traditional conservative values of this state is a real stretch. Excessive goverment happens when the things we own are taken away from us by new laws and regulations, not when they are given back by trying to keep things the way they alwasy have been. Asking our elected representatives to protect us from this recent influx of out-of-state values is not in conflict with traditional NH values, it is right in line with them.

[Bear Lover]

You talk about rights, but there is no RIGHT to operate any size boat at any speed on a NH lake, anymore then there is a right to operate any vehicle at any speed on NH highways.

We are a society of laws, and if the majority want a speed or horse power limit on the lake then that is what they will have.

Enforcement is not the issue. Safety is not the issue. Majority rule is the issue.

Things are getting out of hand on the lake and the majority want a change. If you think the majority want more big loud boats on the lake then you are out of touch with the community.

This law or one like it WILL pass. Perhaps not this year or the next but if you think the status will remain quo then you have your head in the sand.

Next time you paint your boats use salt resistant paint.

[Seaplane Pilot]

The hearing for this bill is next Wednesday, January 19, 2005 at 11:00 am in Room 305 of the Legislative Office Building in Concord. I'll be there in support of NO SPEED LIMIT . We need more help, so if you are against this please try to show up and stand up for your RIGHTS!

[Tyler]

Thanks for the info SeaPlane Pilot. This will never pass. To bad we have to go through this every year.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by Seaplane Pilot

The hearing for this bill is next Wednesday, January 19, 2005 at 11:00 am in Room 305 of the Legislative Office Building in Concord. I'll be there in support of NO SPEED LIMIT . We need more help, so if you are against this please try to show up and stand up for your RIGHTS!

I heard on the news that there is so much interest that they are splitting up the hearing into two separate sessions. Those who are in favor of the bill and a speed limit should show at the above time. Those that are against should show up at 2PM.

[Island Girl]

http://www4.citizen.com/January2005/..._01.15.05a.asp

[Paugus Bay Resident]

Regardless of your position on this, I too urge all of you to write your reps and senator. The ones I've written to have been very responsive, and echo the sentiments that upthesaukee received.

Even if you aren't a "resident", I think they would welcome your opinion.

By the way, here's a link to boating accident statistics (USCG)

USCG 2003 statistics show that the top three causes of boating accidents were operator inattention, careless / reckless operation and operator inexperience. These causes equaled over 43% of all reported accidents. Only 10% or so were caused by excessive speed (which could be 15mph depending on the circumstances). Of the total number of fatalities, 82% were not wearing life jackets. Alcohol was involved in 31% of all boating fatalities. Based on the statistics, it seems that there are other areas of significance to focus on.

[ITD]

Please direct me to the poll or study that says the majority wants a speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee, I'll bet you'll find it at the same place as the majority that wanted rigime change in the US, NOWHERE. Once again, a speed limit won't solve any of the complaints listed in this forum.

Remove "Washington's" in the quote below and I'm afraid you'll begin to see NH direction..... I hope I'm wrong.........

"Sadly, commitment to principle has been missing in Washington's politics for quite some time now. Ronald Reagan's summary of how the government thinks -- 'If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it' -- remains very much alive today." --The Heritage Foundation's Ed Feulner

[phoenix]

should we also get rid of all speed limits on roads. it seems that some limit is logical . Maybe the debate should be about the number not whether we should have any rules

[Bear Lover]

ITD

Your missing the point. A speed limit is not what the majority want. What they want is those "big, loud, gas guzzling, mine is bigger than yours" boats off of the lake. A speed limit is what they will use as the way to do it. Nobody is going to spend a small fortune to keep a muscle boat on a lake with a 45 mph limit.

And after the speed limit passes they will want a horse power limit, or some other method, to get the cabin cruisers off the lake.

If you really think it can't happen read the list of NH lakes with speed and or horsepower limits. It's about 1 in 3.

[Tyler]

that supports this. Unfortunately we go through this every year. This will never pass and those who want it know it. It is simple feel good legislation wishfull thinking.

As I said earlier I thought the mandatory boater education was supposed to help this situation. Was that just another feel good bill that was passed???

[PaulS]

I think the only thing that most people can agree on is that we want courtesy. The best way to get that, is to give it. A 20' runabout going 30 mph past someone in a canoe fishing on a quiet morning, even at 150', is going to be more annoying than a cigarette boat going 70 mph across the broads with no one else in site. Regardless of the boat type: jetski, cruiser, kayak, runabout, or "offshore", each can be driven in a way to not bother others, or with total disregard for anyone and everyone. After about 5 posts, these threads get pretty damned repetative, with not much new information added. A little courtesy goes a long way. Climbing off my soapbox now...

[Just Sold]

With all the discussion pro and con here is my 2 cents.

A speed limit may have some and I say some merit but is it the only answer?

With the various threads on "Go Fast", Off Shore, Ocean Boats, Large Cruisers etc have we forgotten that the PWC can achieve speeds in excess of 60 MPH? So it is not the size or HP of the boat that can get up an go like H--- across any body of water.

My current boat cannot make it to 45MPH. When I bought a previous new boat back in 93 I declined the larger engine because I "gave up drag racing". But that was a personal choice. Don't get me wrong I like speed but there is a time and place for it. That is what NASCAR provides for car enthusiasts at NHIS and other smaller tracks around New England. Is the lake an open race track? Some believe that is the case so we are seeing a way to control it being put forth in the NH Legislature.

I am not convinced that a speed limit is the right answer but it may be the only choice unless someone can come up with a better one.

The whole situation on Winni and much smaller lakes is the same.
It is just proportional as it relates to the size of the lake not the individual boats. I want everyone to enjoy the lakes in our wonderful state and we have to do it safely and fairly.

I feel that rude and dangerous operation is the real root of the problem but how do we get that resolved? Do we put 10 MP's to every 100 boats on our waters? That is ludicris of course.

I do not have a definitive answer but we all should look at the whole picture on both sides of the issue and addresses the real problem as seen by a majority of us. Let the legislators know your feelings. If you cannot got to the hearing send a letter. It is your right to express your opinion.

Sorry I did 25 cents worth not 2.

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by Bear Lover

You talk about rights, but there is no RIGHT to operate any size boat at any speed on a NH lake, anymore then there is a right to operate any vehicle at any speed on NH highways.

We are a society of laws, and if the majority want a speed or horse power limit on the lake then that is what they will have.

Enforcement is not the issue. Safety is not the issue. Majority rule is the issue.

Things are getting out of hand on the lake and the majority want a change. If you think the majority want more big loud boats on the lake then you are out of touch with the community.

This law or one like it WILL pass. Perhaps not this year or the next but if you think the status will remain quo then you have your head in the sand.

Next time you paint your boats use salt resistant paint.

With all due respect I think you are completely wrong with your "majority rules" issue. Certainly in some aspects, as elections, that is what the outcome shall be based on, however, our society is also based on personal freedoms. Our country was based, and fought for, in the belief of personal freedoms. We have a Bill of Rights that is about freedom.

I do not particularly care for sailboats, but I will certainly defend someone's right to own and enjoy it. Where do I have the right to say that someone else may not enjoy their passion, just because I enjoy something different? I don't, and neither do you.

Someone can be just as irresponsible in a canoe, as one of those "ceegar" boats. This entire issue of the lake is an issue of responsibility and accountability for one's own actions irregardless of what type of boat they may choose to enjoy.

If someone goes by you in one of those boats that you obviously detest so much, how long do you really hear it, thirty seconds, maybe a minute, then it's gone. The problem, Bear Lover, is that your own distaste for this particular type of boat has brought you to the point of believing in the concept of "if I don't like it, you can't do it". That is wrong. And it would be just as wrong if the person operating that big loud boat wanted to ban you from the lake. Life is about compromise. And compromise is the only concept that will keep this speed issue from becoming very ugly. We don't need speed limits, what we need is for people to be courteous and respectful of each other, and recognize that everyone has the same right to enjoy the lake in the manner that they may choose, not a choice forced upon them by others. The next time you want to talk about banning a certain type of boat, think of how you would feel if someone wanted to ban you, just because they did not like the vessel that you chose to own and enjoy.

Of all the different groups of boaters, in my neck of the woods, it is the "Offshore" crowd that is without question the most courteous on the water. Our local law enforcement will attest to that.

The "Offshore" community has raised millions and millions of dollars for charities via sanctioned races and Poker Runs, and Fun Runs. They are "good people". Someday you might consider stepping down from your soapbox and actually try to get to know some, or better yet, take a ride in one of those boats. I have not yet met anyone who has not enjoyed it.

Remember, do unto others.......FormulaOutlaw

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by JDeere

[font=Times New Roman][size=3]

There is not rational argument that can be made that someone needs to travel at a speed that is above 45 MPH. Where is anyone going that they need the extra speed? The speed is not about traveling to a destination it is about the thrill. IMHO!

[ Anyway, slower is safer and more friendly to the lake and those that live, weekend, summer, fish, swim, wade, canoe etc. on it!

I must have missed something in "Life 101". Since when is a "thrill" a bad thing? If you have reached a point in your life that either nothing thrills you, or you have no interest in thrill, I feel very sorry for you. Thrill is a good thing, whether it is boating, or going to a good movie.

It's all about the fun of something. Slower does not automatically equate to safer. I'd trust a sober experienced Captain running 100 mph with a vessel that is capable of safely doing that speed, before I'd trust a drunk running 25 mph in an eighteen foot bowrider.

It's all about responsibility and accountability for one's actions. It's just that simple. Nothing more.

[Bear Lover]

FormulaOutlaw

You have no idea what my experiences or motivations are. If you read my posts again you will find that I never gave my opinion of the speed limit. I was giving my take on why some people want a speed limit and predicting what the outcome will be if it passes. You don't have to want a speed limit in order to realize that it is coming. Dozens of NH lakes have been given speed and horsepower limits in the last few years. It's folly to assume that Winnipesaukee is immune.

The only comment I made on the subject was that things are getting out of hand on the lake, and I stand by that.

And I don't need you to tell me about the Offshore community. In the eighties I crewed the "Piccadilly Filly". So I think you are the one that is on the soap box.

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by Bear Lover

FormulaOutlaw

You have no idea what my experiences or motivations are. If you read my posts again you will find that I never gave my opinion of the speed limit. I was giving my take on why some people want a speed limit and predicting what the outcome will be if it passes. You don't have to want a speed limit in order to realize that it is coming. Dozens of NH lakes have been given speed and horsepower limits in the last few years. It's folly to assume that Winnipesaukee is immune.

The only comment I made on the subject was that things are getting out of hand on the lake, and I stand by that.

And I don't need you to tell me about the Offshore community. In the eighties I crewed the "Piccadilly Filly". So I think you are the one that is on the soap box.

You are correct, I do not, and don't particularly want to know, your motivations. I just read and understand the English language reasonably well. Comparing Winnipesaukee with the small lakes that have horsepower limits is rather foolish. Winnipesaukee is not a small lake.

I read what you wrote thoroughly and congratulations you made your feelings known without "committing" by statement. You must be either a lawyer or politician. Doesn't matter.

And if standing on a soapbox protects the interests of all involved, then I'm not coming down. The difference between us is that I understand the rights of others are just as important as my own rights. Your parting shot about the paint pretty much lets anyone understand where you are coming from.

Crewing for a race team twenty years ago means little in 2005. Like I stated, few groups of people have done as much for charities, mostly helping children, as the "offshore" group. As I sit on two "Board of Directors" for offshore groups, help produce two national boat races, help produce and have personally produced poker runs, all in helping either the Suncoast Foundation for the Handicapped, Inc., the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation, and PAL, I have a reasonable idea of what I'm speaking of.

This entire issue on "the lake" is still and will always be about responsibility and accountability, something you cannot legislate. Education and awareness is the key, and next time out, wave at an offshore boat, you'll get a wave back.

[HUH]

Originally Posted by Bear Lover

FormulaOutlaw

You have no idea what my experiences or motivations are. If you read my posts again you will find that I never gave my opinion of the speed limit. I was giving my take on why some people want a speed limit and predicting what the outcome will be if it passes. You don't have to want a speed limit in order to realize that it is coming. Dozens of NH lakes have been given speed and horsepower limits in the last few years. It's folly to assume that Winnipesaukee is immune.

The only comment I made on the subject was that things are getting out of hand on the lake, and I stand by that.

And I don't need you to tell me about the Offshore community. In the eighties I crewed the "Piccadilly Filly". So I think you are the one that is on the soap box.

You keep talking about the other NH lakes that have speed limits.. This is totaly irrelivant to the situation on Winni.. The BIG LAKE is just that its ten times the size of the next largest lake in NH..
Shall I go dig up the numbers

[JDeere]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by FormulaOutlaw

I must have missed something in "Life 101". Since when is a "thrill" a bad thing? If you have reached a point in your life that either nothing thrills you, or you have no interest in thrill, I feel very sorry for you. Thrill is a good thing, whether it is boating, or going to a good movie.

Nothing wrong thrill seeking until it infringes on other people. Your post makes it clear that you think about your first otherwise you would not have felt it necessary to take a shot at someone. If you need speed to get your thrill then by all means go out and get them but not when you put others at risk but it appears that that is not an issue to you…………..hence we need laws to make you the outlaw you wannabe.

[Audiofn]

[QUOTE=JDeere]

Nothing wrong thrill seeking until it infringes on other people. Your post makes it clear that you think about your first otherwise you would not have felt it necessary to take a shot at someone. If you need speed to get your thrill then by all means go out and get them but not when you put others at risk but it appears that that is not an issue to you…………..hence we need laws to make you the outlaw you wannabe.

This is were I think it gets touchy and the two sides have a real hard time seeing any middle ground. However the speed issue as I have said I think is a different one then noise issue, OR are you trying to figure that if a boat can not go over 45 that the loub boats will leave? Back door politics? That is sure what it feels like to me. I am still waiteing for any evidence that speed has a direct cause and effect on accidents as the evidence from the coast guard seems to indicate otherwise. Accidents from my checking around seems to be more related to Intoxication, lack of knowledge, not paying attention, and other things but NOT speed. So again were is your data that shows that those of us driving fast are the cause of all the accidents on the water?

[rickstr66]

Several of us have asked the pro speed limit crowd to post some data on speed causing accidents on Lake Winnipesaukee. None has been posted because it doesn't exsist. Alcohol and stupidity are the 2 reasons for most accidents. Last I checked you can't outlaw stupidity. These pro speed limit people are the same ones that have a house on the lake but go to every town meeting and oppose somoene else building a house on the lake, or they have a dock and protests their new neighbors dock. Once they have it, they dont want anyone else to have it.
One could argue that since Winni is such a big lake, it's the small bout that dont belong. Get rid of all the small, underpowered boats and the overcrowding will be solved. Let the small boat go use a smaller lake or pond. If your boat isnt at least 17' long and have at least 100 hp then you cant be on Winni period. Hey the more I type of this , the better it sounds!!! In reality this doesnt sound good at all. I would never want to limit anyones access to such a beautiful place. Its there for all of us to use and enjoy.

[Aubrey]

It's incredible how many people are stuck on the idea that you can't pass a law you can't enforce. That never stopped them before. The 55 and 65 mph speed limits on 93 are broken by at least 2 out of 3 cars on the road. Drive down 93 at the limit and see how many cars you pass and how many cars pass you.

And a MP officer might not be able to look at a boat and know if it's going 45 or 55. But they certainly will be able to look at a boat going 90 and tell it's breaking the law. Remember an officers estimate can be used for a speeding ticket, no radar gun is required.

I'm not in favor of a 45mph speed limit. But a 65mph limit like on 93 is OK with me. If you need to go 90 perhaps you should find a bigger body of water with less traffic.

Live Free or Die is a statement against political slavery. Not an justification for irresponsible or inconsiderate behavior.

FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community. He has ridiculed this web site and the people in it. I doubt if he has contributed to the upkeep of this site. I think he should go away and stay away.

[phoenix]

well said Aubrey. I also think the real debate should be the actual speed limit not whether there should be any limit . 45 is likely too low but 90 is too high.

[Islander]

Great idea Aubrey!

65 would be fine with me.

And FormulaOutlaw should go insult children somewhere else IMHO.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

I'm not in favor of a 45mph speed limit. But a 65mph limit like on 93 is OK with me. If you need to go 90 perhaps you should find a bigger body of water with less traffic.

See for me or anyone like myself to to get "onboard" with this legislation I want to see evidence that speed limits have lowered the accident rate. I want to see that speed boats are in more accidents then smaller boats. You say this is about safty but you keep coming after only the fastest boats on the lake. The reality of it is that people with speed boats tend to have less accidents per capita then others. Let me give you an example. Joe X speed boater is running up the lake at 60mph. Sam Smith is running up the lake at the same time in the same direction parrallell and slightly in front of Joe X. Sam Smith does not look and makes a sharp turn in front of Joe X and there is a collision. Who gets blamed for the accident in the public opinion? Who's fault is it really.... I say it is Sam Smith for not taking caution before making a turn. Most of you seem to say that it is Joe X because he has a speed boat and all speed boat people should be off the lake

Some one earlier stated that they saw a speed boat go btwn them and a couple kids on a Hobie at a very high rate of speed. Well if that person was under 200 feet from the Hobie then I say that they deserved a fine and a good talking to by the MP's and even tossed off the lake for the day to think about thier stupidity. However if they are over the 200 feet then they are plenty far away to safly pass at speed.

So please show me the evidence that says that adding a speed limit will make the lake safer. Show me the evidence that the cause of all the accidents on the lake are due to anything more then Stupidity and lack of knowledge.

Oh and by the way when there was a boat that sank in the 1000 Islands, the owner died but there was one other person that we found swimming. It was ONLY speed boats that were there (10 of us) to pull the girl out of the water and to assist the Coast Guard in finding us. If it was not for Speed boats, and the fact that we are typically much more observent then most, the Girl would have died as well.

[Audiofn]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

It's incredible how many people are stuck on the idea that you can't pass a law you can't enforce. That never stopped them before. The 55 and 65 mph speed limits on 93 are broken by at least 2 out of 3 cars on the road. Drive down 93 at the limit and see how many cars you pass and how many cars pass you.

What we are saying is that the laws on the books are sufficient as they are. They protect everyone quite well. Your wake is your own responsibility, if you are on plane with in 200 feet of another boat you are pulled over. Enforce the laws that are there and they cover all the issues that you are talking about. To put a law on the books because you guys think that it will get us speed boaters to leave is unfair. As for the speed limit on the highways, well that kind of helps to make my point. Cars are built better then your fathers Model T. They can go faster safer. Try and lower the speed limit on the highways to 45 and see what you get for a response. I bet it is a lot harsher then what we are saying.

I always find it amazing that a Chris Craft can go past with open headers WOT and people will say wow. Then when a speed boat goes past with mufflers they go noisy pieces of .......

Jon

[Aubrey]

Jon

I understand your point.

But what I am saying is that 65 miles an hour is fast enough on lake Winnipesaukee. And that if you want to go faster you should go somewhere else. This is just my opinion, but quite frankly I don't care about accident statistics. This isn't just about safety.

Call it noise, call it erosion, call it my right to peacful enjoyment of the lake. Call it whatever you like, there is a limit and it has been passed.

What speed do you think is to much? If you had to pick a number what would it be?

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

.
FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community. He has ridiculed this web site and the people in it. I doubt if he has contributed to the upkeep of this site. I think he should go away and stay away.

No, I am not a member of your community, but I am an avid member of the "boating community". And in the grand picture, your community is part of the overall "boating community".

I have in no way ridiculed this Forum. I have ridiculed the "I don't like it so you can't do it" concept that is so prevalent here.

The solution to this situation is education and awareness, something I will keep bringing up. Why? Because it is true. It's just that simple.

If it makes you feel any better, I believe I have gotten my point across. I will keep checking back to see how this Thread plays out and unless someone tries to come after me, I don't plan on posting much. I've said what I have to say.

But I'll be watching.......................................... ................................

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by FormulaOutlaw

The solution to this situation is education and awareness, something I will keep bringing up. Why? Because it is true. It's just that simple.

Thank you FormulaOutlaw - well said. I with you on that one. EDUCATION - the more you know and understand, the more empowered you are.

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by Aubrey

FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community. He has ridiculed this web site and the people in it. I doubt if he has contributed to the upkeep of this site. I think he should go away and stay away.

What exactly is your definition of "a member of the lake community"?

[b8tcaster]

Ocasionally when the lake is calm enough and I get a big head I have tried to see if my bass boat can keep up with one of you guys. Seems I always get humbled pretty quickly...lol. Maybe this summer with an extra 50 hp I might have a chance

[Aubrey]

Originally Posted by Outlaw

What exactly is your definition of "a member of the lake community"?

FormulaOutlaw is not a member of the lake community by any reasonable definition! He lives and boats in Florida. He does claim that many years ago he lived in Maine and visited Winnipesaukee a few times. However he displays no knowledge of the lake. By his own admission he is here to try and prevent a speed limit and that he joined here only to vote in the poll.

He is an activist for the Offshore boating community.

He has been rude and insulting to the board and it's members and their children.

by Formula Outlaw

I just went into the first site to lurk. One rubberhead states that anyone going over 45 "isn't going that fast to get somewhere, but for the thrill of it". What in the hell is wrong with getting a thrill outta life????? They need to put that idiot in a box, put it in the ground, and throw the dirt on it.

It's bad having a thrill? That's one of the absolute stupidest moronic things I have ever read. Thank God I live down here. I couldn't take those azzholes.

______________________________________

No kidding.......going through that Forum last night it was so "Green" my computer felt like it had Kryptonite around it. This one guy who owns, according to others, the biggest dump of a marina on the lake, is juming on the "let's clean up the lake" bandwagon. Wants to put PortaPotties so the ice fisherman won't piss in the lake.

I wonder how he'll train the fish to use the PortaPotties?

I can only imagine the site of all those "weenies" whining about how only THEIR interest in the lake is important. "BearLover" is my favorite. I wonder what his/her kids look like?

I think a person that lives, works or visits the lake area on a regular basis could be considered a member of the lake community. Somebody that MIGHT have visited here 20 years ago is not.

[FormulaOutlaw]

[QUOTE=JDeere]

Nothing wrong thrill seeking until it infringes on other people. Your post makes it clear that you think about your first otherwise you would not have felt it necessary to take a shot at someone. If you need speed to get your thrill then by all means go out and get them but not when you put others at risk but it appears that that is not an issue to you…………..hence we need laws to make you the outlaw you wannabe.

Sorry, I don't see where someone operating a performance boat in a responsible manner is infringing on your rights, no more than you paddling by in a canoe would be infringing on mine.

And a "wannabe"???? In 2003 I helped produce two national boat races, (The Suncoast Offshore Grand Prix and the Sarasota Offshore Showdown, which I was the Chairman for the Tow/Patrol Committee, Co-Chairman for the Driver/Sponsor Party, and the "Course Captain"), five poker runs, two fun runs, which benefited the Suncoast Foundation for the Handicapped, The Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation, and the Sarasota Chapter of PAL along with others. I volunteered over seven hundred hours of my time for these events which totaled over half a million dollars raised for charities. I sit on two Boards of Directors for two different "offshore groups".

JDeere, please list what you have done for the boating community as of late.

And then we'll see who's the "wannabe".

p.s. I plan on trailering "OUTLAW", my boat, up to Maine next summer. I will certainly find the time to run "Lake Winni". I am very much looking forward to it. I'll be easy to spot. "OUTLAW" is emblazened on the hullsides.

[b8tcaster]

How fast is that sucker?

[FormulaOutlaw]

Originally Posted by b8tcaster

How fast is that sucker?

That's top secret information, but it can't pass a gas dock. LOL

[hoytglp]

Did you ever see a 35ft. cruiser going 20mph -30mph the wake is hugh. The faster the boat the smaller the wake,just a thought. Signs helping people remember, THINK SAFTY and BE COURTEOUS at gas docks and boat ramps as a reminder, that we all want to enjoy the lake.

[Fat Jack]

Originally Posted by hoytglp

Did you ever see a 35ft. cruiser going 20mph -30mph

A 35ft. cruiser will not go 20-30MPH on this lake for long before its owner will trailer it over to Sebago. Once the people over at Sebago get fed up with them like we have, these boats will be forced out to the ocean where they belong. That's the whole idea. People like you and me (assuming you can't afford one of these monsters either) will be able to take our families out on the lake again.

[b8tcaster]

The answer to these issues is better education and enforcement. Interesting comments from the director of marine patrol in an interview with NHPR this past spring. http://nhpr.org/view_content/6630/

[jeffk]

I've been boating on the lake for 10 years now. I've seen people do all sorts of stupid boating behavior, mostly involving excess speeds closer than 150 ft. I'm sure others on this forum have longer boating experience on the lake than I, but not once have I had a problem because someone was going faster than 45 mph. I have seen others going fast but usually at a significant distance. My boat (22 ft) tops out at about 55. I will occassionally push it to the limit when I am a good distance from any obstacles. It's fun. After a couple of minutes I cut back to a more sedate crusing speed.
As others have pointed out, it's the reckless behavior, not the speed. I will conceed that the combination of bad behavior and speed can make a bad situation worse. However, a high speed pass through the broads early in the day is not inherently dangerous to anyone. I would bet that going out in a canoe or rowboat without a life jacket has caused more fatalities without any other boat even being involved. Can we figure out some type of legislation to prevent that stupid behavior? (Off topic - and snowmobilers that don't know the lake going out drunk late at night and drowning?)
Almost every time I can think of someone doing something dangerous on the lake I was aware that they were probably breaking an already existing law. Why don't we focus on education and enforcement of existing laws before we decide we have to regulate the fun out of everyone's lives.

[Mee-n-Mac]

Read the title of this post and think. A SL accomplishes no more that it can enforce, perhaps a SL of 45 mph. For some this is a potential means to an end, and I just wish they would be more forthcoming and admit it. For others they believe (I think mistakenly) it'll have some effect on safety. Let me address this for a moment ...

Certainly excess speed (?? hmmm excess ??) can produce tragic results, sometimes involving the innocent users of the lake. Othertimes it may just be annoying. I ask,what is what is excessive speed* ... can it be defined be a single number ? In our automotive life we see many SL's, those appropriate for the town and those appropriate (? well let's not argue this for a moment ?) for our interstates. So is the lake a town road or a highway ? Is a 45 mph limit appropriate for this town/highway ? I believe the lake is neither town nor interstate, at times it's more of the former (in areas and at times) and at the same time more of the latter (in other areas). A one-fix-fits-all solution is just wrong IMHO, unless you agree that restriction for all must serve the most restrictive case (so much for liberty). I there any data that supports that a SL, realistically enforced, would have any real effect on the lake ? I believe (you can disagree, hopefully a rational discussion may ensue) that people who operate a boat w/o due regard to other's won't be much changed by a SL, same as SL's haven't changed the speed on our highways. I believe that more enforcement, at those places and times where speed is an issue, would have a much more benefittial effect than would any SL. Let me be more upfront. Congestion is the real problem, speed where there is "high" congestion is the real issue. The effect of a MP boat in those high traffic areas is not to be underestimated. Is a rule change really required ? What would it (purportedly) solve ? Would "we" be better server by an MP boat (not that I care much for this solution) at the congestion points ? Would a lake-wide SL really do any better or could "we" come up with a more rational concept ??

Moreover I really think it's time to think about how "we" approach such things. It seems that "we" are tending towards a "Gov't restricts this bad thing" w/o thinking whether such approaches are the best to affect a change or whether a rule change will really change anything. I dunno, perhaps it's the late hour, but I'm getting dismayed at our collective ability to solve problems (what is our problem in this case ?) w/o invoking the far reaching and non-descrimanting powers of gov't.

*Excessive speed - so is 55 mph excessive on the highway ? 65 mph ?? OR is the problem the one of letting pretty much any idiot behind the wheel ??? Should we all drive slow so the morons amongst us be safe at any speed ??? Are they really safe at 55 ??? Are "we" given that "they" are on the road ????? What is the real problem anyway ??????

[HUH]

Someone please show me statisticaly that speed is the culprit for any detrimental effects on the lake ..YOU CANT
There are more adverse effects from boats leaving large wakes or uneducated boaters ..
Where did the 45 number come from a hat ? 45 is maximum wake speed for a lot of boats
25 at night leaves the bow of most boats high in the air impairing visibility.
This is not well thought out at all.

[upthesaukee]

I have already heard from two representatives to whom I sent my email this morning. Both of them agree that while there is certainly cause for concern about boating conditions on Winnipesaukee, establishing a speed limit is not currently the best solution, nor is it an enforceable solution.

I am impressed that two of the nine legislators to whom I sent the email have already responded in less than twelve hours, and on a weekend.

Please utilize the links that Island Girl has provided to find out who you can contact (either pro or con) and why you feel this way. (You're right Mee-n-Mac, we need to act responsibly, educate thoroughly, and stop regulating for lack of any other kind of effort to solve a problem.).

[Just Sold]

I sent my e-mail letter off to my Representatives today. How about the rest of you? IG posted the link here in this thread so everyone could contact their Representative.

We can gripe here on the Forum all we want but we need to be part of the process by letting our Representatives know how we feel too.

Upthesaukee: we do agree on this.

Here is the text of the Bill:

HB 162 – AS INTRODUCED

2005 SESSION

05-0103

03/01

HOUSE BILL 162

AN ACT establishing boating speed limits for Lake Winnipesaukee.

SPONSORS: Rep. Pilliod, Belk 5

COMMITTEE: Resources, Recreation and Development

ANALYSIS

This bill establishes boating speed limits for Lake Winnipesaukee.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Explanation: Matter added to current law appears in bold italics.

Matter removed from current law appears [in brackets and struckthrough.]

Matter which is either (a) all new or (b) repealed and reenacted appears in regular type.

2005 SESSION

• • • • • • 05-0103

03/01

STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

In the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand Five

AN ACT establishing boating speed limits for Lake Winnipesaukee.

Be it Enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court convened:

1 New Section; Restrictions on Boating; Lake Winnipesaukee. Amend RSA 270 by inserting after section 130 the following new section:

270:131 Lake Winnipesaukee. No person shall use or operate any powerboat, motorboat, or boat equipped with any type of power motor at a rate of speed exceeding 45 miles per hour during daylight hours and 25 miles per hour during night hours on the waters of Lake Winnipesaukee. As used in this section, “daylight hours” means the hours between 1/2 hour before sunrise and 1/2 hour after sunset and “night hours” means the hours 1/2 hour after sunset and 1/2 hour before sunrise. Any person who violates the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a violation.

2 Effective Date. This act shall take effect January 1, 2006.

[GWC...]

View Poll Results:
How do you feel about a speed limit on Lake Winnipesaukee?

I strongly feel the state should implement a 45 mph speed limit! (14) 28.57%

I think a speed limit on certain parts of the lake might be appropriate, perhaps higher than 45mph. (3) 6.12%

I don’t care either way. (1) 2.04%

I don’t think we need a speed limit. (8) 16.33%

I am strongly opposed to any speed limit on the lake! (23) 46.94%


Not impressed with your interpretation of the poll.

17 were for some kind of a speed limit and 31 were against some kind of a speed limit.

"Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts", as Joe Friday would say.

[nightrider]

A two-seat PWC is not defined as a "boat". If this law passes, would they be exempt?

[b8tcaster]

The director of the marine patrol has stated that this is nothing but "feel good legislation" and next to impossible to enforce. I for one would really support any recommendations that he makes to alleviate the situation as I feel that he knows better than most of us since he is responsible for safety issues on New Hampshire waters. I certainly hope that he is in attendance at the hearing to express his thoughts. I personally would like to see more funding for the marine patrol in order to have a greater presence on the lake.I keep thinking of my time on the lake and how would a speed limit change things. Would it change things at Eagle island or near the Weirs on a summer weekend?. Would it change the the way people operate between Lockes Island and Belknap point.Would it change the way people enter or leave Wolfeboro Bay, Alton bay, or any other popular areas? Would it really slow people down at all? I personally dont think so. Why? Because the marine patrol does not have enough manpower on the lake to enforce it. I cant count the number of times i have seen them with someone stopped and other boats fly by within 150' of myself and the marine patrol knowing that since they are already busy they will not be caught. The answer to the problems is the ability to enforce already existing laws

[PROPELLER]

I would like to take this opportunity, in the wake (no pun intended) of the speed limit discussion, to point out that we at Winni are lucky. I boated for several years in the North Shore area of Mass betweem Nahant & Gloucester and my opinion that area is much more congested, boaters are much less conscious of their wake & how close they pass another boat, less courteous & there is NO MARINE PATROL AT ALL.

I just received my new issue of Motor Boating & there is a letter in the Mailboat section that references how Lake of the Ozarks next to Lake Havasu is the biggest on water party the author has ever seen. I also read how Lake Norman in NC set a world record for the largest raft up, over 1,000 boats.

So to all those who have been complaining about how bad Winni is, count your blessings, you have it very good here in Paradise.

[DoTheMath]

Ahhh yes, the power of calm - cool reasoning and pure facts... what a wonderful thing!