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12-09-2004, 09:04 AM | #1 | |||
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A little "stinky odor" doesn't bother me. Sometimes, a little is even a bit invigorating. But there's too many really big 2-strokes on Winnipesaukee nowadays, like those who troll by with 150 HP. Add that to the carburated gas-guzzlers for some really bad air-days. Quote:
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If you've spent any time in California, you'd know that the internal-combustion engine has ruined the air there -- particularly Los Angeles, where one's eyes can "tear-up" all day long from the unburned gasoline/hydrocarbons. Even charcoal-starter has been banned to make the air decent -- and weed-whackers and leaf-blowers may be next. (The immigrant lawn maintenance special interests were blocking it, last I saw). California's 2-stroke outboards have been bought up -- cheap -- and are being sold in the East. How is this a good thing? |
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12-09-2004, 04:02 PM | #2 |
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Too funny
Madrasahs Wrote: "But there's too many really big 2-strokes on Winnipesaukee nowadays, like those who troll by with 150 HP." and indicated they help cause some "really bad air days"
Just wondering madrasahs if you can tell us how many of these 150HP outboards are the so called "polluters" or are you just grouping all 2 stroke outboards together? The majority of the 2 stroke outboards no matter the size on the lake for your information are direct injected (DI) or high pressure direct injected (HPDI) which exceed the strictest EPA levels for emissions, even surpass California standards. I hope this clarifies your mistake regarding this issue. |
12-09-2004, 10:25 PM | #3 | |
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trfour Always Remember, The Best Safety Device In The Boat, or on a PWC Snowmobile etc., Is YOU! Safe sledding tips and much more; http://www.snowmobile.org/snowmobiling-safety.html |
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12-10-2004, 07:45 PM | #4 | |||
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Californians have to wait until 2008 before laws achieve significantly-reduced pollution levels from 2-stroke regulation, mechanical attrition and exports to states and other countries. Quote:
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12-10-2004, 08:07 PM | #5 |
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Excuse me
You do realize that restrictions on emissions and the cost of achieving these set goals is severely hurting the national economy .. Manufacturing is being outsourced abroad due to the high cost of doing business in the US ..
Two stroke engines are such a minute part of the equation its laughable.. If you really care about the environment then do your homework and stand up to the real culprits.. The clinton administration and al gore claim to be such advocates of cleaner air etc .. Yet while they were in office More full sized V8 powered SUV's were sold than any other type of vehicle .. You mean to tell me that an outboard engine that operates maybe 3-4 months for a total of about 20 hours has a detrimental effect on the environment.. No one wants dirty water and air ..But extremist and alarmist tactics will not work .. How about these 41 homes that were burnt in MD bordering a state forest.. How much damage was done by the fires themselves, not to mention the senseless waste of timber and resources to build them .. |
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12-11-2004, 05:54 AM | #6 |
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Bravo!!!
HUH, you nailed it. THE SKY IS NOT FALLING with the use of 2 stroke outboards on any lake anywhere. As you pointed out so well the Clinton administration helped set what is in place. The Bush administration is making it right, takes some time but it will get done. ****
Last edited by webmaster; 12-12-2004 at 12:04 PM. |
12-11-2004, 11:40 AM | #7 | ||||
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Winnipesaukee needs a "Sonic-Cleaner"
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(And how HUH can be a responsible representative for snowmobiler issues). Anyway, the real culprits are 2-strokes and carbureted 4-strokes. This year, Winnipesaukee air wasn't too bad, as the weather didn't cooperate most weekends. We still had a 2-stroke, dual-Mercury-powered, Sonic troll by almost daily for two weeks in late August. While birds didn't fall from the trees, the exhaust plume -- at every pass -- gagged everyone nearby. It was suggested previously (by Tyler) that injection was the solution for bad air. Now it appears that bad air can be expected due to some cheapening/lessening of gasoline detergents from America's gasolines (excepting Shell/Mobil). Here's an excerpt of what appeared in this morning's paper: Quote:
(AND it looks like it's not-just-me, either). Quote:
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12-11-2004, 12:19 PM | #8 | |
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Lake winni has bad air days ..thats alarmist , not to mention rediculous !! |
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12-12-2004, 01:37 PM | #9 | |
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12-14-2004, 09:18 AM | #10 | |
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Three gallons a season tows in winter flotsam at ice-out...In summer, mooring searches and the occasional disabled boats of others.
Three gallons won't even bring oversized boats up to operating temperature on Winnipesaukee. The other 99% of my boating hours is either wind- or electric- powered. Back in July, I praised one part of the market for improving, though slowly (SIKSUKR, pls note): http://www.winnipesaukee.com/forums/...=6349#post6349. (The article referenced at the bottom was a press release that appeared in several July magazines). Quote:
2) The Lake has bad-air days. This past season was notable for minimal bad-air days. |
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12-14-2004, 10:44 AM | #11 |
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Hey Mad,I'm not sure why or what you want me to note.Please explain,especially since I have not chimed in on this thread. .SS
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12-14-2004, 11:16 AM | #12 |
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Three gallons here...
three gallons there. Thanks for admitting you are also part of the problem.
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12-14-2004, 10:25 PM | #13 |
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Entitlement
1) Fighting pollution isn't extremist. Polluting the air, roadways, and waters shouldn't be an entitlement.
Nor should having to go slow or sail or use lead acid batteries to power an electric boat !! 2) The Lake has bad-air days. This past season was notable for minimal bad-air days. Can you produce any results from local air tests ?? Curious what type of fuel you use to heat your home ? |
12-14-2004, 10:41 PM | #14 |
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and what about wood burning
Since it 'tis the season to be warm ... where do y'all stand on burning wood ? Do you favor CA style controls that outlaw open fireplaces and wood burning stoves ? Is the soot and smoke bellowing from your stove a sweet smell evocative of ye olde good country living or a toxic, potentially carcinogenic, waste byproduct indiscriminately blanketing the countryside and smothering me whenever I dare to venture outdoors ? Should I believe the EPA when it says ...
"Smoke from wood heaters is a major cause of air pollution. In fact, during winter, wood heaters can produce two to three times as much particle pollution as cars. Not only is a smoking fire wasting your money, but the air pollution it causes can also affect our health." "Wood smoke contains a number of noxious gases (including carbon monoxide, oxides of nitrogen, and a range of organic compounds, some of which are toxic or carcinogenic) and fine particles, which go deep into the lungs." http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/woodsmoke/index.htm And I've not even touched on the carbon cycle / global warming issues. Is wood burning as big, or even a bigger issue, than 2 stoke pollution ? I'm sure all the environmentally aware people supporting a ban on 2 strokes would never be caught burning wood, at least in it's non-pelletized form. All fun aside, I'd suggest that people can't live in a non-polluting way. At a minimum we eat, digest and pollute (really). The real question is what are the local conditions, what are the significant contributors and what are the real alternatives (cost is an issue despite what the EPA mandate is). Just how big is the local problem ? Is this a debate about a molehill or a mountain for NH ?
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12-15-2004, 12:13 AM | #15 |
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2 Strokes
Don't worry, the manufacturers are starting to make BIG 4 strokes.
I often wonder when the tree huggers start spouting off about electric cars, hybrids, etc., how is the electricity generated to charge the batteries? Nuclear, coal, gas all have draw back and pollute. What about the gases the batteries give off? What happens when all the batteries reach the end of their life where will they be dumped? If you don't like the exhaust smell around the lake try driving the NJ Turnpike through NEWARK, LINDEN, RAHWAY and ELIZABETH. The smell of a 2 Cycle will not seem that bad. HO! HO! HO! I want a white CHRISTMAS so I can use my snow blower. |
12-15-2004, 11:10 AM | #16 |
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Pollution
If the powers that be would take their head out of the sand & develope hydrogen fuel cell technology (its been around for 100 years now) the tree huggers would have no gripes about exhaust. The fuel is plentiful, the only by product is H2O & we would not be dependent on foreign oil. I guess there are too many lobbies in Washington to allow that to happen. I guess they will probably wait until oil runs out (estimates are anywhere from 25 to 50 years) & then there will be a crisis, a big scramble to get other technology on line.
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12-15-2004, 12:01 PM | #17 |
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Good point propeller
Hydrogen and fuel cell technology is in my opinion being supressed by big oil. Rather than point fingers on this site as to who or what is the biggest polluter we should put our efforts into making a difference, myself included. Since it is well documented that the average lawn mower, weed wacker, chain saw, wood burning stove, propane or natural gas heater, just to name a few modern devices that pollute the air more than the modern two stroke outboard, what could we do to make a difference rather than complain on this site about it?
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12-24-2004, 10:06 AM | #18 | ||
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Help is on the way..."HaveBlue"
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12-24-2004, 11:02 AM | #19 |
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Oh Ya
Ill pose this question again ..What do you do with the lead acid batteries ??
HaveBlue’s system will run $300,000 to $550,000. (Boat sold separately.) |
12-27-2004, 09:42 PM | #20 |
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Monday's Concord Monitor
Today's, Monday, www.ConcordMonitor.com has an article about the Appalachian Mountain Club's hotel-lodge in Crawford Notch and the new snowmobile trail that the State of NH wants to run close by on a railroad right of way. It's titled something like What a dopey plan, or Such a stupid plan or One hell of a moron plan, or something, I forget. The Concord Monitor is like a breath of clean mountain air after gasping on those Union Leader sno-mo fumes, arrrggggg!
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12-27-2004, 09:58 PM | #21 |
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How sad
Ya thats a real tear jerker .. Theres one reason the state wants a trail up there and thats because they know where the money comes from.. The tree hugging hippy types dont have any money..
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01-05-2005, 01:41 PM | #22 | |
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Interesting stuff
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The 17kg of H storage theoretically has 2281400 Btu or 689 kwH of energy. With 900w (0.9kw) of power generation on board and assuming 85% efficiency in electrolysis (to get the H from H2O) and 95% in storing the H into the Ovonic's "battery", it'll take some 38+ days to recharge all the H. Better have shore power at the dock Still I am very enthused about the usage of the "H battery", aka Ni Hydride hydrogen storage. This technology is possibly 1 of the key elements to getting hydrogen fuel cells into auto usage (and solving the leakage problem).
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01-06-2005, 06:47 PM | #23 |
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dumb
Stop complaining. New Hampshire has great air quality and the short snowmobile season has almost no effect on it. Snowmobiling is a great sport and it should never be frowned upon.
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12-15-2004, 09:38 PM | #24 | |
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On fuel cells
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Perhaps the most intriguing concept I've heard is that each house might generate it's own electricity using scaled down versions of already available commercial units. Reforming natural gas to make the H solves the infrastructure problem and would help some of the pollution issues (if not greenhouse gases). Adoption of this type of fuel cell might be speedier than trying to convert/replace existing power plants to some form of "green" fuel ... at least so goes some thinking.
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12-15-2004, 02:31 PM | #25 | ||
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What Wood be Better?
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NH construction-debris burning to produce energy has been stopped -- or stymied. (In Spring, you can pass several new spec-built lakefront homes burning construction debris in the open anyway). But funny you should mention "burning wood". I'm warmed by woodstove heat today -- burning the remains of a damaged red-oak pallet fallen -- or discarded -- in front of my gate last winter. However, I'm presently one-hour's drive south of Grobania, Florida. This antique woodstove got installed after a 1989 ("The Christmas-") Freeze that caused our electrical utility to have "planned rolling-blackouts". Here, it was scheduled for 8AM to Noon. The temperature was 28° in the living room. A long-stored kerosene heater saved that day. I may take it to Winnipesaukee this March. It's odorless, smokeless, extremely efficient -- 99.9% -- and a quick morning heat to supplement the usual quick morning electric heat for a cottage. This morning's temperature was 35° outside, and hasn't warmed up much...so this is an Internet-day. (Note to self: It's too hot...Move computer station further away from woodstove). The day did not start off well though, as "Mac's" question found me first exploring www.earthcrash.org. It's depressing -- don't go there. Everything in this part of Florida gets burned. You're supposed to get a permit from the State of Florida, but only a few bother. Because of wildfires and development, we get a stinky haze most days. It helps that Florida is a peninsula, so the "bad-air" gets disbursed to the oceans. No locals complain because "It's progress -- you can't stop it". This past Spring, about ¼ of this lake's shoreline was bulldozed of its orange groves and live-oaks for a new development. Everything got burned -- and the burning continues today. The State won't permit pressure-treated wood in their landfills, so four old docks joined the burn-piles, too. The bulldozers left a "fringe" of 60-foot-tall pines along the shoreline. Hurricane Charley blew nearly half of them into the lake, where they remain today. (The trees that would have blocked the wind had been bulldozed before the hurricane season). Yesterday, too late for County pick-up/burning, a one-ton pile of hurricane debris was burned by me -- mostly my neighbor's non-native trees that fell/blew over the fence. My own live-oak "forest" stayed largely intact through all three hurricanes that hit here (Charley, Frances, Jeanne). But it was a "new" family member who made me aware of "Energy": He is a naturalized citizen from Holland, and was a youngster when Holland was overrun by the Nazis. He has actually burned the family's wood furniture to keep warm -- and disassembled Nazi barracks (stealthily, board-by-board) for more wood to keep his family warm. Some great stories, there. He presently lives in bad-air California, and has installed a solar unit (by himself) on his new house. On their many sunny days, they can watch the electric meter run backwards. 1000Kw just today -- money in their pockets. Too cool! When he visits Winnipesaukee, we set up a solar panel to charge the batteries that we use to peaceably cruise the shorelines. I think it's fun -- all of it. NH's woodstove population spares the benzene, formaldehyde, toluene, dimethylbenzene, carbon monoxide, arsenic, vinyl chloride, formaldehyde, and chromium added by 2-stroke exhaust from snowmobiles. (Although those pollutants could be added to the woodstove fires just to fit in). Quote:
The population crush has created a fossil-fuel problem which has made them acutely aware of "bad-air". They also have wildfires that we don't have. This one's of Seattle's air, though. But at Winnipesaukee, there's not the pressing population -- yet -- to restrict woodstoves. Isn't it only California's Marin County that's affected by fireplace bans? But even far from Marin County, I stayed at California's Yosemite Park when campers were chopping down green redwood saplings for barbeques, creating an eye-burning, localized, smoggy bad-air environment. Similar local smoggy days occur on Winnipesaukee weekends. At Winnipesaukee, an EPA-approved woodstove (a glass-fronted Waterford) burns local wood, including some I have cut myself. When wood decays in forests, it releases carbon dioxide, just as a woodstove does when wood is burned in it. I see it as a trade-off. Open fireplaces are poor heaters -- something even Benjamin Franklin recognized. A cast iron "Franklin" woodstove built in 1870 heats my Florida home -- it even has isinglass windows to watch the fire! A good woodstove design will burn with minimal smoke once it reaches operating temperature -- and is burning well-seasoned wood. All of Humanity affects their surroundings -- just by their very "being". Some just have a greater high-profile presence (the in-your-face presence) than others. What's wrong with the low-profile approach of olde New Hampshire? |
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12-15-2004, 07:54 PM | #26 |
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some old fuddy-duddy
Sure, in NH, some two-stroke outboards will still be in use for years & years, but the four-strokes are finding lots of happy users. I read somewhere that the outboard manufactorers have been surprised by how fast the four-strokes have become popular. The reasons are well known and easy to see and hear when a four-stroke boat put-puts past you. Easy starting, no stinky odor, no whiny high pitched noise, better fuel economy, more symmetrical power curve.
After using a four-stroke a few times people just get used to their quiet reliabilty. As time goes by two-stroke outboards will be sold off to third world areas or used by a few old Winnipesaukee fuddy-duddies. "Hey, would you look at that, there goes some old fuddy-duddy with his stinky old two-stroke!" |
12-15-2004, 10:52 PM | #27 | ||
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Perhaps less people per acre of Winni
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Wood smoke contains over 100 different chemicals and compounds, including dioxin, as well as lead, cadmium and arsenic. Below is a partial list:*+carbon monoxide, methane, VOCs (C2-C7), *aldehydes, +formaldehyde, *+acrolein, +pro-pionaldehyde, butyl aldehyde, +acetaldehyde, furfural, substituted furans, +benzene, +alkyl benzenes, +toluene, acetic acid, formic acid, *nitrogen oxides (NO, NO2), *sulfur dioxide, +methyl chloride, +naphthalene, +substituted naphthalenes, oxygenated monoaromatics, guaiacol (and derivatives), *+phenol (and derivatives), syringol (and derivatives), +cat-echol (and derivatives), *+particulate organic carbon, oxygenated polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, +PAHs: fluorene, phenanthrene, +anthracene, methylanthracenes, +fluoran-thene, *+pyrene, +benzo(a)anthracene, +chry-sene, +benzofluoranthenes, *+benzo(e)pyrene, *+benzo(a)pyrene, *perylene, +ideno(1,2,3-cd)pyrene, *benz(ghi)perylene, *coro-nene, +dibenzo(a,h)pyrene, retene, dibenz(a,h)anthracene, trace elements: Na, Mg, Al, Si, S, Cl, K, Ca, Ti, V, +Cr, +Mn, Fe, +Ni, Cu, Zn, Br, +Pb; particulate elemental carbon, normal alkanes (C24-C30), cyclic di-and triter-penoids, dehydroabietic acid, isopimaric acid, lupenone, friedelin, +chlorinated dioxins http://www.webcom.com/~bi/welcome.html Yikes this stuff sure looks deadly But frankly you've hit it on the head below ... Quote:
Depending on your viewpoint any internal combustion engine is a pollution menace. Is the 2 stoke, old or new, or 4 cycle extant in enough density for long enough times that the air circulation isn't able to reduce the pollutants ? In NH I'd say not. I'd also seriously question that it's so in parts of CA as well but I'll leave their science to them. Suffice it to say that just because an idea makes sense in CA doesn't mean it automatically applies to NH. I believe FLL is correct in that 4 cycles will displace 2 strokes in most engine applications (save the few small HP versions where light weight is most important) due to the inherent advantages of the technology. It'll happen on it's on accord w/o further intervention by gov't. The few remaining won't be worth worrying about.
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Mee'n'Mac "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple stupidity or ignorance. The latter are a lot more common than the former." - RAH Last edited by Mee-n-Mac; 12-15-2004 at 10:57 PM. |
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12-15-2004, 11:45 PM | #28 |
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2 Strokes
Just think back 30, 40 or 50 years ago. What was powering the majority of boats on the lake? I would guess 2 cycle outboards. Was the air worse then? Perhaps.
Technoliogy advances and boat size increases have just about killed the BIG 2 cycles. Jet skis are now using 4 cycles as are some snowmobiles. How about going back to steam and burning woood! I'm a lumber jack and.... |
12-17-2004, 10:05 AM | #29 | |||
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"All for Oil"
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"Burning Issues" reads like an Enron "Clean-air" natural gas advertisement. (Except for Burning Issue's word "lung-rape", which puts the site into an altogether different league). While they quote these (and Mac's) scary contents of wood smoke: Quote:
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The problem with a qualitative analysis done today is that it is possible to measure into the ppb (parts per billion), so "everything" (contaminants in the iron stove, firebrick, chimney cleansers, chimney construction, even the air supplied for the test) gets "analyzed" too. I find it strange that mercury (Hg) is totally missing, unless it's cloaked as one of the "methylated" compounds listed. They don't cite what "woods" they burned in the test, either. (Or newspaper -- which, on its own, would produce dioxins -- Or birchbark and pine cones -- which would produce many of the listed organic compounds in the ppb range). And "your" elements? Salt is used to keep chimneys clean, so to "find" Na and Cl in smoke shouldn't be too surprising. Ni and Cr are the elemental components of stainless-steel chimneys -- again, a qualitiative search should make those appear, especially under heated conditions. Fe? You mean rust? Pb -- lead -- is one of nature's most common trace elements. It's found on everything, particularly easy in a qualititative search. Lead is added to certain "performance boaters'" gasoline -- a concern in swimmable and drinkable lakewaters. I'll grant that absolutely no form of smoke is healthy, but when an EPA woodstove is burning "hot", with properly seasoned fuel, all you'll see coming from the chimney is shimmering heat waves. Wood burning is probably even more common in Canada, where the Quebec lawsuit against snowmobiles came from. (Come to think of it...I've never heard a snowmobiler complain of "bad-air"). Two-strokes (really, all motorized vessels and vehicles) release their toxins at road or water level. (In water, it lingers above the cool water's surface). While wood-burning doesn't improve the air, it at least happens in Nature from time-to-time, and unavoidably. Fireplaces put the smoke well upwards, too, and not "in-your-face" like snowmobiles, Jet-Skis and boats. There's just no avoiding bad-air days lakeside. In traffic, I can close my auto's vents before being "hit" by bad-air near town; however, if you've got $50,000+, you can buy one of the new automobiles which will filter your auto's interior air against bad-air intrusion! (They're equipped with replaceable activated-carbon-charcoal filters for the toxins that hug the roadways). What? Your car doesn't have one???? Here is a temporary solution: http://www.forensi-tech.com/catalog/items/3-5150.html Of course, even the manufacture of activated-carbon-charcoal filters involves coal. There's just no winning this costly fossil-fuel addiction -- except as individuals, who "live" alternative-energy. |
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